|
On January 21 2012 05:09 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 05:07 willoc wrote:On January 21 2012 05:04 Klondikebar wrote:On January 21 2012 05:00 SnowSC2 wrote:On January 21 2012 04:58 Klondikebar wrote:On January 21 2012 04:56 willoc wrote:On January 21 2012 04:55 Klondikebar wrote:On January 21 2012 04:49 corpuscle wrote:On January 21 2012 04:44 Klondikebar wrote:
You could use those. But how about the VOD's where the matchmaker "randomly" matches a pro against a player 4 and 5 times in a row? Like I said, I don't expect them to catch someone who just stream snipes once...and I'm not really sure I care about someone who stream snipes once. But when Deezer gets matched up against Spanishiwa 6 times in a row it should be pretty easy to say "I think Deezer is stream sniping."
If neither player reports the other, why would there be a problem? I've seen players get repeat-matched too, and usually the players know each other and go "lol matchmaking is hilarious" and go on with their day. edit: also I don't think they should check into it every time someone gets reported for sniping, but if you have like 10-20 instances of a single player getting reported for it, and there's evidence, that should raise red flags. I edited in a solution. Grand Master players get a "report sniping" option. Blizzard only needs to check match history. What does this prove? That they played games against each other in a row? Who's fault is that? It would have to be both players as they both pressed the "find match" button. You obviously wouldn't get banned for being matched twice in a row. But bad stream snipers will get matched against a player 5 or 6 times in a row...honestly, did you read my post? people have played 6 matches in a row against the same person just by coincidence many times before.... Were they grandmaster? Would they streaming at the time? Would they have reported the other player? Are you just making that up? Are you saying people who aren't in GM don't deserve this 'right' you are trying to impose? You're saying that it is fine that anyone below GM can be stream sniped. I don't think segregation is the right way to go. Also, GM players are most likely to be matched with the same person as there is a smaller pool of players in their' 'skill gap' (just like bottom bronze players). That's exactly what I'm saying. What non-grandmaster player derives a significant amount of income from streaming? The whole point of the policy is to make "professional gamer" a viable career between tournaments. If you're not a professional gamer, the policy isn't designed for you. And I'm also quite certain that professional players are intelligent and mature enough to only report when they truly believe it''s stream sniping. They have to click that report button before we even start talking about Blizzard. teh idea that a professional gamer has to be good is retarded. the only requirement to being professional at anything is making a non zero amount of money from it. so the idea of basing it on skill only is stupid. there are plenty of non GM players who make money from SC2, and in most cases, their stream is part of that. im pretty sure psy isnt GM, but i think he probably counts as a pro gamer.
|
How can Blizzard possibly be so obtuse? Do they not understand that user streams are beneficial to Blizzard as well as the streamers? The possibility of stream sniping without ramifications is obviously going to drive players away from streaming. Could you imagine a world without streams? The volume of SC2 content on the web would drop so alarmingly. Honestly, how do we as SC2 enthusiasts get our SC2 content?
1) Big Tourneys
Stuff like MLG, IEM, HSC, etc. These only come around once every few months and generally take 3-5 days, some of the smaller ones being monthly at best. GSL of course has a slightly different format, but the premise is close enough to clump together with the others. These are nice, but obviously most people are only going to watch through the VOD's once before they're stale. (That's just how this game works.) Too few and far between. Not to mention that watching players in big tourneys is much different than watching them ladder, for many reasons.
2) Showmatch/Weekly Event
These, like the big tourneys, are generally sponsored heavily. Stuff that IPL puts out, Korean Weekly, occasional Twitch.tv stuff, etc. The fine production value and quality, high level gameplay, and pro casting feeds us interesting material. A little less sporadic, but the difference in strats and distinction between competitive vs ladder play is still there.
3) Third-Party Content
Day[9] comes to mind, among others. Stuff that isn't really commercial or professionally produced all count. These are adequate and quite varied sources of content that one could probably find fresh every day or two.
But none of these compare in volume or audience benefit to:
4) Streamers
Every minute of every day, from somewhere in the world there are at least a dozen pros streaming on one of a dozen host sites. This is the Bread and Butter to the average SC2 goer. Some of us have it on 24/7. It's where we go to learn, it's where we go for entertainment, and it's where we go to kill time with something we love. It's the largest source of content in terms of volume, and that by an incredibly huge margin. If something like stream sniping disrupts this content, not volumetrically but in terms of pissing off the streamer or ruining matches, etc, that's something Blizzard should have a problem with.
That huge rant aside, I also question Blizzards knowledge of what "stream sniping" actually is. There's no problem with attempting to play against a pro on the ladder by timing queues correctly. The problem lies in watching the stream to gain an unfair advantage and insight into the player's moves, strategies, and other information specific to that game. There's no reason that Blizzard should be ok with that, let alone discouraging players to stream as a solution.
|
Totally agree with Blizzard
If you give someone an open book to your strategies, of course they're going to read it. It's unethical but it's not illegal.
|
I can swear I've heard people lots of times talking about how blizzard should act against this, but now that it strikes me noone has ever came up with an idea what they should actually do.
Im 100% behind blizz on this.
|
On January 21 2012 09:28 SkimGuy wrote:
Totally agree with Blizzard
If you give someone an open book to your strategies, of course they're going to read it. It's unethical but it's not illegal.
The problem is that these top streamers are helping blizzard in the long run by advertising their game to new players who stumble upon a stream, and want to play. In return, you would think blizzard could take the time to implement a small feature that prevents a player from being matched up more than twice in a row. This alone would drastically reduce stream cheating.
Personally I wouldnt implement a system where you could blacklist a certain amount of players, as that would lead to top players on the ladder (top koreans / foreigners) being blocked by alot of players who dont want to throw away ladder points. However, limiting the amount of times a player can be matched together would certainly be a good idea.
|
I like Blizzard's policy on all things concerning SC2: Keep. It. Simple.
If you're going to be streaming, sorry we can't stop people from going to your stream, that's your choice to make your games public.
And are we supposed to enforce some sort of anti sniping policy towards players who simple beat you while you are streaming?
Is it okay when the other player doesn't make it obvious?
You can't bend the rules in some circumstances and strictly enforce it in others.
Let's focus on the BMing stream snipers do rather than the act of using information streamers provide to everyone.
|
Its not the cheating that bothers me, it is the harassment. Take dezzer for example, he will que against a pro over and over again and it is annoying to the people watching and the pro that is streaming. I just wish blizz would fix that so you cant play the same player over and over.
|
On January 21 2012 09:35 eXigent. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 09:28 SkimGuy wrote:
Totally agree with Blizzard
If you give someone an open book to your strategies, of course they're going to read it. It's unethical but it's not illegal. The problem is that these top streamers are helping blizzard in the long run by advertising their game to new players who stumble upon a stream, and want to play. In return, you would think blizzard could take the time to implement a small feature that prevents a player from being matched up more than twice in a row. This alone would drastically reduce stream cheating. Personally I wouldnt implement a system where you could blacklist a certain amount of players, as that would lead to top players on the ladder (top koreans / foreigners) being blocked by alot of players who dont want to throw away ladder points. However, limiting the amount of times a player can be matched together would certainly be a good idea.
Changing the entire match making system for the needs of very, very few players is a little silly no?
Let's be honest here: Streams are going to continue regardless of stream snipers. And their viewership is not going to get smaller because of them (I've seen streams actually jump viewership from having some assholes making a clown out of themselves).
|
That's exactly what I'm saying. What non-grandmaster player derives a significant amount of income from streaming?
hi
Blizzard are so incredibly out of touch. Obviously, we can't have them regulating streams and looking out for ghosting, that's absurd. Ghosting is incredibly hard to prove and even then the evidence is highly circumstantial. They also don't seem to understand the difference between sniping and ghosting, never mentioning the term ghosting and titling their post sniping, while referring to what is in fact, ghosting. It disturbs me greatly that they don't have at least one person on staff who actually knows what the fuck he's talking about in terms of the streaming scene, a medium which has contributed significantly to their sales figures.
Sniping is fixable via changes to the matchmaking system. That's all anyone's asking for. The entire Blizzard post is a giant strawman argument which inadvertently (or not, having played WoW for 6 years and watched the obvious social engineering that went on in that game, with Blizzard deliberately misrepresenting issues in order to cause conflict and hostility between different kinds of players and destabilise any kind of unified response from the playerbase) sets the casual players against streamers by portraying them as whining, unreasonable money-grubbers. Nobody is asking for Blizzard to monitor streams for ghosting, the very notion is outlandish, sadly it seems that Bashiok's usual FUD isn't merely confined to one game :\
|
On January 21 2012 09:12 TheTurk wrote:
How can Blizzard possibly be so obtuse? Do they not understand that user streams are beneficial to Blizzard as well as the streamers? The possibility of stream sniping without ramifications is obviously going to drive players away from streaming. Could you imagine a world without streams? The volume of SC2 content on the web would drop so alarmingly. Honestly, how do we as SC2 enthusiasts get our SC2 content?
1) Big Tourneys
Stuff like MLG, IEM, HSC, etc. These only come around once every few months and generally take 3-5 days, some of the smaller ones being monthly at best. GSL of course has a slightly different format, but the premise is close enough to clump together with the others. These are nice, but obviously most people are only going to watch through the VOD's once before they're stale. (That's just how this game works.) Too few and far between. Not to mention that watching players in big tourneys is much different than watching them ladder, for many reasons.
2) Showmatch/Weekly Event
These, like the big tourneys, are generally sponsored heavily. Stuff that IPL puts out, Korean Weekly, occasional Twitch.tv stuff, etc. The fine production value and quality, high level gameplay, and pro casting feeds us interesting material. A little less sporadic, but the difference in strats and distinction between competitive vs ladder play is still there.
3) Third-Party Content
Day[9] comes to mind, among others. Stuff that isn't really commercial or professionally produced all count. These are adequate and quite varied sources of content that one could probably find fresh every day or two.
But none of these compare in volume or audience benefit to:
4) Streamers
Every minute of every day, from somewhere in the world there are at least a dozen pros streaming on one of a dozen host sites. This is the Bread and Butter to the average SC2 goer. Some of us have it on 24/7. It's where we go to learn, it's where we go for entertainment, and it's where we go to kill time with something we love. It's the largest source of content in terms of volume, and that by an incredibly huge margin. If something like stream sniping disrupts this content, not volumetrically but in terms of pissing off the streamer or ruining matches, etc, that's something Blizzard should have a problem with.
That huge rant aside, I also question Blizzards knowledge of what "stream sniping" actually is. There's no problem with attempting to play against a pro on the ladder by timing queues correctly. The problem lies in watching the stream to gain an unfair advantage and insight into the player's moves, strategies, and other information specific to that game. There's no reason that Blizzard should be ok with that, let alone discouraging players to stream as a solution.
are you a moron? stream sniping stops almost no streams, and the good players just roll straight over deezer and combatEX even when they are cheating. all it does is teach mediocre but famous streamers how to play vs strong cheese.
and blizzard banning people because they are annoying is just retarded, im pretty sure there would be like 5 players on battlenet. dragon and cella have pissed off loads of people in game with silly strats, but no one clamours for them to be banned, even though using someone elses account to play in lower leagues is clearly in breach of the EULA.
blizzard aren't discouraging players from streaming, all they are saying is that if you give your opponent an opportunity to gain an advantage, dont be surprised if they take it. if you cant understand their veiwpoint, and why they cant do shit to stop it, then its not even worth my time to post this, but whatever, its written now.
User was warned for this post
|
On January 21 2012 09:50 halfies wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 09:12 TheTurk wrote:
How can Blizzard possibly be so obtuse? Do they not understand that user streams are beneficial to Blizzard as well as the streamers? The possibility of stream sniping without ramifications is obviously going to drive players away from streaming. Could you imagine a world without streams? The volume of SC2 content on the web would drop so alarmingly. Honestly, how do we as SC2 enthusiasts get our SC2 content?
1) Big Tourneys
Stuff like MLG, IEM, HSC, etc. These only come around once every few months and generally take 3-5 days, some of the smaller ones being monthly at best. GSL of course has a slightly different format, but the premise is close enough to clump together with the others. These are nice, but obviously most people are only going to watch through the VOD's once before they're stale. (That's just how this game works.) Too few and far between. Not to mention that watching players in big tourneys is much different than watching them ladder, for many reasons.
2) Showmatch/Weekly Event
These, like the big tourneys, are generally sponsored heavily. Stuff that IPL puts out, Korean Weekly, occasional Twitch.tv stuff, etc. The fine production value and quality, high level gameplay, and pro casting feeds us interesting material. A little less sporadic, but the difference in strats and distinction between competitive vs ladder play is still there.
3) Third-Party Content
Day[9] comes to mind, among others. Stuff that isn't really commercial or professionally produced all count. These are adequate and quite varied sources of content that one could probably find fresh every day or two.
But none of these compare in volume or audience benefit to:
4) Streamers
Every minute of every day, from somewhere in the world there are at least a dozen pros streaming on one of a dozen host sites. This is the Bread and Butter to the average SC2 goer. Some of us have it on 24/7. It's where we go to learn, it's where we go for entertainment, and it's where we go to kill time with something we love. It's the largest source of content in terms of volume, and that by an incredibly huge margin. If something like stream sniping disrupts this content, not volumetrically but in terms of pissing off the streamer or ruining matches, etc, that's something Blizzard should have a problem with.
That huge rant aside, I also question Blizzards knowledge of what "stream sniping" actually is. There's no problem with attempting to play against a pro on the ladder by timing queues correctly. The problem lies in watching the stream to gain an unfair advantage and insight into the player's moves, strategies, and other information specific to that game. There's no reason that Blizzard should be ok with that, let alone discouraging players to stream as a solution. are you a moron? stream sniping stops almost no streams, and the good players just roll straight over deezer and combatEX even when they are cheating. all it does is teach mediocre but famous streamers how to play vs strong cheese. and blizzard banning people because they are annoying is just retarded, im pretty sure there would be like 5 players on battlenet. dragon and cella have pissed off loads of people in game with silly strats, but no one clamours for them to be banned, even though using someone elses account to play in lower leagues is clearly in breach of the EULA. blizzard aren't discouraging players from streaming, all they are saying is that if you give your opponent an opportunity to gain an advantage, dont be surprised if they take it. if you cant understand their veiwpoint, and why they cant do shit to stop it, then its not even worth my time to post this, but whatever, its written now.
... Why are you even comparing CombatEX and Deezer to Cella and Dragon
|
On January 21 2012 09:47 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +That's exactly what I'm saying. What non-grandmaster player derives a significant amount of income from streaming? hi Blizzard are so incredibly out of touch. Obviously, we can't have them regulating streams and looking out for ghosting, that's absurd. Ghosting is incredibly hard to prove and even then the evidence is highly circumstantial. They also don't seem to understand the difference between sniping and ghosting, never mentioning the term ghosting and titling their post sniping, while referring to what is in fact, ghosting. It disturbs me greatly that they don't have at least one person on staff who actually knows what the fuck he's talking about in terms of the streaming scene, a medium which has contributed significantly to their sales figures. Sniping is fixable via changes to the matchmaking system. That's all anyone's asking for. The entire Blizzard post is a giant strawman argument which inadvertently (or not, having played WoW for 6 years and watched the obvious social engineering that went on in that game, with Blizzard deliberately misrepresenting issues in order to cause conflict and hostility between different kinds of players and destabilise any kind of unified response from the playerbase) sets the casual players against streamers by portraying them as whining, unreasonable money-grubbers. Nobody is asking for Blizzard to monitor streams for ghosting, the very notion is outlandish, sadly it seems that Bashiok's usual FUD isn't merely confined to one game :\
hi
Your post is incredibly out of touch. Your argument of changing the has been destroyed so many times already in the thread. You want to stream on the INTERNET? Deal with the consequences. You cannot have your cake and eat it too
|
On January 21 2012 10:17 Dakkas wrote:
hi
Your post is incredibly out of touch. Your argument of changing the has been destroyed so many times already in the thread. You want to stream on the INTERNET? Deal with the consequences. You cannot have your cake and eat it too
Hi, no it hasn't and no it isn't, but thanks for your opinion, even though you didn't bother to qualify a damn thing about it and yet somehow still think it matters.
|
On January 21 2012 09:32 KaiserJohan wrote:
I can swear I've heard people lots of times talking about how blizzard should act against this, but now that it strikes me noone has ever came up with an idea what they should actually do.
Im 100% behind blizz on this.
This. How are people proposing Blizzard fixes stream sniping? Limit the amount of times you can play a player in a row? That doesn't fix the problem at all but instead makes it happen less often. However, it will still happen.
On January 20 2012 13:50 memcpy wrote:
I agree with their argument that they can't do anything because they have no current policies against stream cheating. What they could do however is add stream sniping to their policies and ban people who have been reported on multiple accounts since it's easily verifiable by looking at their match history. Doesn't seem like any more of difficult than looking into harassment cases.
You want to ban people for entering the queue at the right time to hit a specific player? Brilliant idea.
|
I agree. Personally I think it's out of blizzards hands.. There is no "fix".
|
Canada11512 Posts
Maybe you could down vote players like you can on maps? This would have the unfortunate consequence of dodging certain people for ladder points I suppose. But the automatchmaking has created its own set of problems. In BW, if you didn't want to play a guy, you could avoid joining his game. And you could ban people from joining your game as well.
But automatchmaking you don't really have a choice, especially when combined with the lame Custom Maps UI which has killed custom maps. The problem is it only effect a select group of people- famous people, but effects everyone that wants to watch entertaining games, but the viewing experience is wrecked by a couple trolls.
Sure players don't have to stream, but it can be a source of revenue and it's for the benefit of the community to see our favourite players play. I don't know about you, but I have a quota of how much Combat and Deezer I want to see and it gets filled pretty quickly.
But maybe down vote or maybe if once playing a certain player x amount of times would cross a threshold where you could ban them? I don't know. It's a limited problem, but a frustrating one- of course if Combat and Deezer get bored of it all, I guess then it's problem solved.
|
On January 21 2012 10:24 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 10:17 Dakkas wrote:
hi
Your post is incredibly out of touch. Your argument of changing the has been destroyed so many times already in the thread. You want to stream on the INTERNET? Deal with the consequences. You cannot have your cake and eat it too Hi, no it hasn't and no it isn't, but thanks for your opinion, even though you didn't bother to qualify a damn thing about it and yet somehow still think it matters.
So let me get this right, you want Blizzard to protect you so you can intentionally and openly show what you're doing on the internet? You want all the benefits with none of the responsibility? What are we, primary school?
Now TB, pray and tell what can Blizzard do to the matchmaking system? Give the option to never play the same person multiple times? That doesn't stop it from happening in the first place. Allow you to blacklist certain players? Right, then some scrub blacklists people better than him. Great ladder then
Please enlighten me because it's obvious you have many ideas that would resolve this
|
Canada11512 Posts
Allow you to blacklist certain players? Right, then some scrub blacklists people better than him. Great ladder then
Well now that I think about it, ladder's a bit of a joke anyways. No global ranking, hidden losses and all sorts of problems with early season GM. A limited form of blacklisting wouldn't break things as much they already are...
|
Why would this be Blizzard's responsibility? The players who stream expose themselves to the risk of dishonest opponent by broadcasting their play. But if it's merely a ladder game at stake, is it really such a big deal? I would understand if it were costing people tournament matches, but this just seems silly.
|
On January 21 2012 11:02 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +Allow you to blacklist certain players? Right, then some scrub blacklists people better than him. Great ladder then Well now that I think about it, ladder's a bit of a joke anyways. No global ranking, hidden losses and all sorts of problems with early season GM. A limited form of blacklisting wouldn't break things as much they already are...
Blacklisting players is worse than all of those things you listed combined
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
