It appears that Blizzard is indeed aware of the problems with stream sniping, but their initial responce gives little hope for changes to be made.
This was the original post of a stickied thread on the Blizzard forums by Community Manager, Bashiok:
We’ve continued to see reports regarding someone live streaming their match, and their opponent watching the stream in order to gain an in-game advantage (also known as stream sniping). While this is obviously poor sportsmanship on the part of the one viewing the stream, we’d like to clarify that this is not a violation of any current policies. In fact, we cannot enforce any ‘fair play’ policies if a user chooses to provide their opponent an advantage. If someone in-game chooses to tell their opponent every move they’re making, thereby informing them how to counter it, we cannot conclude that any violation has taken place. Even if this could be considered a violation, we simply cannot micro-manage every streamed match to ensure the opponent was not looking at it, or using it to their advantage. It goes far beyond the scope of what we’re able to enforce. It’s advisable for those streaming to take precautions, including delaying their streams by a significant amount of time, to avoid any potential advantage they may be providing their opponent.
We are absolutely able to enforce, and will continue to do so, violations that include harassment of others in-game, use of hacks, abuse of our reporting tools, and attempts to disrupt the gameplay of others. If you believe that someone is in violation of the game rules it does not warrant behavior, language, or abuse that would earn you, yourself, a suspension from the game. If you'd like to report an offense, please report the player using clear and descriptive language only once; support will review that report and take action based on the validity of the complaint, not the persistence of the reporting.
The intent with our policies is to ensure a fair and fun experience in Blizzard games, but the act of providing a window into your game for your opponent to see is not considered a violation, should they choose to use that to their advantage. We encourage anyone streaming to keep this in mind while doing so.
TLDR: Blizzard is aware of stream sniping, but have no policies against it because streamers are willingly making their games viewable. They suggest that streamers take extra precautions, as they cannot possibly deal with the problem. They will, of course, still be working against hacks and other such violations.
Personaly, I think their argument is fine. (Wait, don't rage at me). As much as I would like all stream snipers/cheaters to be permanantly demoted to bronze league, streamers are putting themselves at risk, and Blizzard has no rules against such things. For the record, I watch pro-gamer streams all the time, and it's annoying as a viewer as well as the streamer, as there is nothing fun about watching a game where somebody is cheating.
Feel free to discuss, don't get mad if you disagree.
P.S. It's been brought up that Blizzard seems to be confused between "stream sniping" and "stream cheating", being that one is queuing up to get a game with a pro, and the other is watching their stream during the game to win. I don't think this matters, thats like correcting somebody's grammar or spelling in an effort to defeat their argument. Blizzards position is quite clear, word choice regardless.
I agree with their argument that they can't do anything because they have no current policies against stream cheating. What they could do however is add stream sniping to their policies and ban people who have been reported on multiple accounts since it's easily verifiable by looking at their match history. Doesn't seem like any more of difficult than looking into harassment cases.
Blizzard has FAR more important things to fix that directly relate to the game and bnet. Stream sniping is an outside issue that should hopefully be last on their list.
On January 20 2012 13:51 Leeoku wrote: honest question. how hard is it to add delay...
I don't stream, but I can't imagine that it's very chalanging. I think the reason many streamers don't add a delay is because it limits their interaction with their audidiance, which is the basis of them running a good stream.
Yeah I wouldn't expect Blizzard to do anything about stream sniping, like they said it is out of their reach as to what they can actually enforce, and it isn't a direct problem with the game so it isn't really their problem either. If anything, the problem really lies on the streaming website (twitch, owned, etc.), but even then the stream sniper isn't doing anything wrong by their policies. They are just simply watching the stream. Unfortunately I don't think stream sniping is going to be dealt with in a formal way by Blizzard, Twitch, or any other organization, but rather by streamers using overlays to hide when they are queueing etc, much like the overlays many Liquid/EG guys use when they stream.
On January 20 2012 13:50 SKTerran.117 wrote: What else did people REALLY expect them to do?
that's what I wondered to lol. Why do people expect blizzard to do something about stream sniping? Its not their responsibility at all for that kind of thing lol.
On January 20 2012 13:51 Leeoku wrote: honest question. how hard is it to add delay...
How can blizzard add delay ? The streamers have to set up delay on their streaming program. However they choose not to do so because it makes viewer-streamer interaction much worse.
The problem I have with this is in cases when combatEZ and deezer prevent a progamer from practicing because they stream snipe them so much (others players do it too but none nearly so well-known). They're trying to make a living, especially in the case of destiny, where viewer numbers matter(ed?) while the sniper is trying to be a nuisance. There's a huge difference.
Actually, I really dislike this decision by blizzard There is no difference between stream sniping and maphacking. It's not the streamer's fault that hes streaming, its the maphackers/snipers fault for looking at the stream. They can choose whether or not to do so, and only affect themselves. If the streamer decides to delay or shut off the stream, then he loses hundreds or thousands of viewers.
Demuslim handles this very well, he just makes fun of the sniper and mercilessly beats him game after game while giving him tips. When he was losing games, he put the camera on his face and every few minutes would talk about how hes facing combatEZ and trashing him, and he made us have a good time regardless.
On January 20 2012 13:51 Leeoku wrote: honest question. how hard is it to add delay...
its clearly easy and it clearly doesnt work.
not suprised blizz doesnt really care.....but dont they agree that some people turn it into harassment? (deezer)
Again, this type of harassment is one of the prices of streaming. Blizzard can't punish someone for abusing their ladder system via a stream.
Not only that, players that live ladder could choose to do other things like customs and whatnot. I just think that yeah, it sucks, but there are also ways around it as well. Again, stream sniping is dumb and annoying, but it is the player's choice to stream withou delay or whatnot.
On January 20 2012 13:56 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote: The problem I have with this is in cases when combatEZ and deezer prevent a progamer from practicing because they stream snipe them so much (others players do it too but none nearly so well-known). They're trying to make a living, especially in the case of destiny, where viewer numbers matter(ed?) while the sniper is trying to be a nuisance. There's a huge difference.
Actually, I really dislike this decision by blizzard There is no difference between stream sniping and maphacking. It's not the streamer's fault that hes streaming, its the maphackers/snipers fault for looking at the stream. They can choose whether or not to do so, and only affect themselves. If the streamer decides to delay or shut off the stream, then he loses hundreds or thousands of viewers.
Demuslim handles this very well, he just makes fun of the sniper and mercilessly beats him game after game while giving him tips. When he was losing games, he put the camera on his face and every few minutes would talk about how hes facing combatEZ and trashing him, and he made us have a good time regardless.
There is a very big difference with maphacking. While the two may be similar from an ethical standpoint, maphacking usually modifies Battle.net data, which Blizzard wants to protect themselves against.
Meh, a problem without a real solution. Delaying streams doesn't really work, it screws the streamer/audience 100% of the time, and doesn't actually prevent cheating (just gives you a buffer of time before the 'cheating' kicks in).
The most reasonable approach I've seen is to just not show the ladder screen after a game so that you can queue a random amount of time and avoid getting sniped that way, while still interacting with your viewers (a very important part of streaming which stream delays ruin).
Its sad because we all know its wrong but there isn't really any way to fix it. And we know there are people who make their living off of streaming, so its extra sad knowing the trolls can't be stopped.
On January 20 2012 13:59 Stipulation wrote: Stream sniping and stream cheating are two different things. It does concern me a little that Blizzard doesn't know the difference.
I hate to sound douchy but I think jargon is important.
Stream sniping is the act using a stream to push the "find match" button at the same time as the streamer; thereby increasing your odds of getting to play Idra, Destiny, etc.
Stream cheating is using the stream to get information to help counter your opponents build, army positioning, expand timing, etc. (equivalent to hacking).
On January 20 2012 13:56 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote: The problem I have with this is in cases when combatEZ and deezer prevent a progamer from practicing because they stream snipe them so much (others players do it too but none nearly so well-known). They're trying to make a living, especially in the case of destiny, where viewer numbers matter(ed?) while the sniper is trying to be a nuisance. There's a huge difference.
Actually, I really dislike this decision by blizzard There is no difference between stream sniping and maphacking. It's not the streamer's fault that hes streaming, its the maphackers/snipers fault for looking at the stream. They can choose whether or not to do so, and only affect themselves. If the streamer decides to delay or shut off the stream, then he loses hundreds or thousands of viewers.
Demuslim handles this very well, he just makes fun of the sniper and mercilessly beats him game after game while giving him tips. When he was losing games, he put the camera on his face and every few minutes would talk about how hes facing combatEZ and trashing him, and he made us have a good time regardless.
There is a very big difference with maphacking. While the two may be similar from an ethical standpoint, maphacking usually modifies Battle.net data, which Blizzard wants to protect themselves against.
Deezer and Combat are not preventing the player from practicing at all, just practicing in a certain form. The players could still play other forms of the game or just take it with a grain of salt and beat down the snipers. They only keep coming because you give them attention. Just kill them and ignore them or just play the game another way.
Matchmaking needs to be fixed in such a way that you can only play against a certain player so often. There is no reason you should have to play against deezer 3 times in a row. That is just BAD matchmaking. You should be forced into playing against a variety of players on ladder, making repeat stream sniping impossible.
On January 20 2012 13:59 Stipulation wrote: Stream sniping and stream cheating are two different things. It does concern me a little that Blizzard doesn't know the difference.
whats the difference?
Stream sniping is watching someone's stream when they queue in an attempt to get matches against only that person. Stream cheating is watching during the match - effectively a maphack.
Either way, I don't see how it's Blizzard's responsibility to do anything about it. I guess a tweak to the matchmaking algorithm might be worthwhile though.
On January 20 2012 14:00 bigAL wrote: I hate to sound douchy but I think jargon is important.
Stream sniping is the act using a stream to push the "find match" button at the same time as the streamer; thereby increasing your odds of getting to play Idra, Destiny, etc.
Stream cheating is using the stream to get information to help counter your opponents build, army positioning, expand timing, etc. (equivalent to hacking).
how is that equivalent to hacking? if i tell my opponent every move i'm making through chat, is that also hacking?
On January 20 2012 14:03 neoenigma wrote: Matchmaking needs to be fixed in such a way that you can only play against a certain player so often. There is no reason you should have to play against deezer 3 times in a row. That is just BAD matchmaking. You should be forced into playing against a variety of players on ladder, making repeat stream sniping impossible.
1+ I always hate laddering and playing the same guy 3 times in a row or race this can prevent that from happening too.
I guess it's reasonable. If you're making your ingame information available for anyone to see, you can't demand that other people not look at it when playing against you. Stream sniping sucks, stream cheating is even worse, but take pleasure in knowing that the people doing it are literally sitting there and spending hours of their life hoping to steal a fraction of yours.
I'm not sure why we as a community are still trying to put pressure on Blizzard to resolve this issue when it is the streaming companies that have the power to take action against the offenders. Why can't Twitch.tv IP ban Deezer? I know it is possible to find a way around an IP ban and I'm sure deezer would take the necessary steps to keep doing what he is doing, but it is certainly a start.
Edit: i've just realized the answer to my question... Deezer doesn't need a twitch account to view the stream and there for twitch would have no way to tell which viewer's IP is him :/
There's no way for them to prove they're stream cheating. They're hardly allowed to spy on what web pages people are entering with some trojan. You can't just look at match history. That's evidence for stream sniping it's not evidence for stream cheating and it's not proof of anything. I've gotten the same person 4-5 times in a row and that person didn't stream to my knowledge.
Not that I'm criticizing them for not making the distinction, but stream sniping is really more the issue I'd expect them to deal with rather than stream cheating. Stream sniping is using a stream to watch for when someone queues to match against them repeatedly. I can only imagine that intentionally abusing the ladder to match yourself against a particular player is against some sort of policy they have considering you could use it to manipulate ladder rankings. Like others have said, a neat solution would just be to decrease the chances of meeting the same player multiple times in a row.
I can't see how people are getting mad at Blizzard, its something they have no power over and as such there is no reason to be bitching to them about it.
This really isn't Blizzard's problem. People stream willingly, and at any point the streamer can just shut down the stream, implement some sort of stream delay, or just ignore it completely.
You can't do anything to prevent it except just not streaming at all or black your screen out. It's like playing holdem with your cards face side up and then complaining that the other people knew what you had and folded or went all in. It's not cheating or harrasment. Deal with it or turn your stream off.
I'm pretty annoyed with their definition. I thought "stream sniping" pertained to people who watch a stream to try and get matched vs. a certain opponent by seeing when they search for a match.
"Stream cheating" on the other hand is what Blizzard described, watching the stream to cheat during the game. Perhaps I am naive to think someone might do one without doing the other, but they aren't the same and shouldn't be used interchangeable.
Of course there's noting Blizzard can do about this, unless people want them to take action if someone presents them with irrefutable proof against someone, but that's rather unlikely.
The obvious solution is stream delays, though I realize this has the drawbacks of interfering with spectator interaction and isn't available on all streaming sites.
On January 20 2012 14:23 Jonoman92 wrote: I'm pretty annoyed with their definition. I thought "stream sniping" pertained to people who watch a stream to try and get matched vs. a certain opponent by seeing when they search for a match.
"Stream cheating" on the other hand is what Blizzard described, watching the stream to cheat during the game. Perhaps I am naive to think someone might do one without doing the other, but they aren't the same and shouldn't be used interchangeable.
Of course there's noting Blizzard can do about this, unless people want them to take action if someone presents them with irrefutable proof against someone, but that's rather unlikely.
It doesn't really matter because both are equally unenforceable. Both situations the streamer is willingly putting himself in a position to be abused.
On January 20 2012 13:51 Leeoku wrote: honest question. how hard is it to add delay...
Lots of people don't like to add delay because it hinders their ability to communicate with their viewers.
Then clearly the weight of being stream sniped/cheated multiple times in a row isn't as detrimental to viewership as the inability to communicate with viewers.
On January 20 2012 14:12 Cubu wrote: i got a shiver down my spine when i realised blizzard didn't know the difference between stream SNIPING and stream CHEATING
Not really...it is a degree of difference in terms of results and enforcability. To most people it is the same thing.
I don't always agree with Blizzard but here... 100%. If you stream your games prepare for the possibility of cheating. Blizzard isn't god, they can't be omnipresent and protect you if there is a public broadcasting of your game from someone using that against you.
On January 20 2012 13:51 Leeoku wrote: honest question. how hard is it to add delay...
Lots of people don't like to add delay because it hinders their ability to communicate with their viewers.
Then clearly the weight of being stream sniped/cheated multiple times in a row isn't as detrimental to viewership as the inability to communicate with viewers.
Exactly. It is a trade off that is on the streamer, not Blizzard.
Stream sniping can easily be fixed by making it so you cannot match up against the same person more than X amount of times in Y amount of time. Stream cheating is something entirely different and it really shows the incompetence of blizzard when they use it far out of it's definition. Whoever interacts with the community on Blizzards side is clearly out of touch with what actually goes on..It's kind of appalling. Players like Deezer who are allowed to play this game are a testament to how terrible Blizzard is at maintaining a connection with their player base. Then again, it did take them several months to get rid of close position spawns and let's not forget how long it took to get chat channels..
On January 20 2012 13:50 memcpy wrote: I agree with their argument that they can't do anything because they have no current policies against stream cheating. What they could do however is add stream sniping to their policies and ban people who have been reported on multiple accounts since it's easily verifiable by looking at their match history. Doesn't seem like any more of difficult than looking into harassment cases.
On January 20 2012 13:50 memcpy wrote: I agree with their argument that they can't do anything because they have no current policies against stream cheating. What they could do however is add stream sniping to their policies and ban people who have been reported on multiple accounts since it's easily verifiable by looking at their match history. Doesn't seem like any more of difficult than looking into harassment cases.
Pretty good point. This only needs to be done on popular streams as well. I agree completely.
As others have pointed out, this is really more their policy on stream cheating, and I don't think all that many people truly criticize this stance anyways. Few would expect more than what they are doing with regards to stream cheating.
Actual stream sniping is, I think, a more appropriate problem for them to address. Being forced to play the same people over and over again that are only in it to annoy you and give you a hard time because they figured out how to game the system is most certainly something I think Blizzard should care about. Even separated from streaming, being able to time your game searches to play against particular people is highly sketchy and not a good user experience.
On January 20 2012 13:50 memcpy wrote: I agree with their argument that they can't do anything because they have no current policies against stream cheating. What they could do however is add stream sniping to their policies and ban people who have been reported on multiple accounts since it's easily verifiable by looking at their match history. Doesn't seem like any more of difficult than looking into harassment cases.
Pretty good point. This only needs to be done on popular streams as well. I agree completely.
There are issues there though. Why should Blizzard regulate streams? It is not their job at all. Also, what counts as a "popular" streamer? Someone semipopular could get pissed off about it and claim discrimination. It is just ridiculous to me that people make their work public then expect someone else to regulate it. There are valid ways around stream sniping and cheating that are controlled by the streamer's end, it is their choice not to use them.
Couldn't blizzard simply add the ability to avoid players on ladder to b.net? Wouldn't that solve the entire stream sniping issue. Then for stream cheating in tourneys they have officials to deal with that stuff so the problem would disappear. I mean I could be over simplifying this entire thing but this seems like a pretty simple fix.
On January 20 2012 13:50 memcpy wrote: I agree with their argument that they can't do anything because they have no current policies against stream cheating. What they could do however is add stream sniping to their policies and ban people who have been reported on multiple accounts since it's easily verifiable by looking at their match history. Doesn't seem like any more of difficult than looking into harassment cases.
Pretty good point. This only needs to be done on popular streams as well. I agree completely.
There are issues there though. Why should Blizzard regulate streams? It is not their job at all. Also, what counts as a "popular" streamer? Someone semipopular could get pissed off about it and claim discrimination. It is just ridiculous to me that people make their work public then expect someone else to regulate it. There are valid ways around stream sniping and cheating that are controlled by the streamer's end, it is their choice not to use them.
I completely agree. If you don't want to get stream sniped, don't stream. It's as simple as that.
"Blizzard doesn't know the difference between sniping and cheating."
Doesn't matter. If you replaced everything with details pertaining to "sniping" instead of "cheating," everything would still be outside of Blizzard's jurisdiction and reasonable ability.
On January 20 2012 13:50 memcpy wrote: I agree with their argument that they can't do anything because they have no current policies against stream cheating. What they could do however is add stream sniping to their policies and ban people who have been reported on multiple accounts since it's easily verifiable by looking at their match history. Doesn't seem like any more of difficult than looking into harassment cases.
Pretty good point. This only needs to be done on popular streams as well. I agree completely.
There are issues there though. Why should Blizzard regulate streams? It is not their job at all. Also, what counts as a "popular" streamer? Someone semipopular could get pissed off about it and claim discrimination. It is just ridiculous to me that people make their work public then expect someone else to regulate it. There are valid ways around stream sniping and cheating that are controlled by the streamer's end, it is their choice not to use them.
There are a few different viewpoints one could take. For example take Blizzard's viewpoint from business standpoint; ensuring that popular professional players can stream properly without grievances can in turn generate more popularity in the game, resulting in more potential revenue. You could also take a stream viewer's standpoint; as a viewer I may want some form of regulation by Blizzard to ensure that the popular streams aren't harassed in the form of stream cheating.
Sure the topic is currently subjective and ill-defined, but that's what Blizzard was saying: they have no policies or definitions currently in order to do anything. It's just a matter of defining some on their part, if they deemed it worthwhile.
On January 20 2012 13:51 Leeoku wrote: honest question. how hard is it to add delay...
I don't stream, but I can't imagine that it's very chalanging. I think the reason many streamers don't add a delay is because it limits their interaction with their audidiance, which is the basis of them running a good stream.
This is precisely the reason. But for streamers who don't really interact with their viewers adding a delay would work, however, it would make running ads very inconvenient because the ad would most likely cut out the last portion of the game (depending on how much delay is built in).
Wait what? Since when was it Blizzard's responsibility to deal with stream snipers? Streamers, by showing their screens to live audience, are subjecting themselves to this issue. If they want to stream, they should have the "threat" of stream cheaters. I don't see why Blizzard needs to fix something they aren't even affiliated with. Pretty sure Blizzard isn't partnered with twitch, own3d, or any independent streamers. Their argument is totally valid.
On January 20 2012 13:50 memcpy wrote: I agree with their argument that they can't do anything because they have no current policies against stream cheating. What they could do however is add stream sniping to their policies and ban people who have been reported on multiple accounts since it's easily verifiable by looking at their match history. Doesn't seem like any more of difficult than looking into harassment cases.
Pretty good point. This only needs to be done on popular streams as well. I agree completely.
There are issues there though. Why should Blizzard regulate streams? It is not their job at all. Also, what counts as a "popular" streamer? Someone semipopular could get pissed off about it and claim discrimination. It is just ridiculous to me that people make their work public then expect someone else to regulate it. There are valid ways around stream sniping and cheating that are controlled by the streamer's end, it is their choice not to use them.
There are a few different viewpoints one could take. For example take Blizzard's viewpoint from business standpoint; ensuring that popular professional players can stream properly without grievances can in turn generate more popularity in the game, resulting in more potential revenue. You could also take a stream viewer's standpoint; as a viewer I may want some form of regulation by Blizzard to ensure that the popular streams aren't harassed in the form of stream cheating.
Sure the topic is currently subjective and ill-defined, but that's what Blizzard was saying: they have no policies or definitions currently in order to do anything. It's just a matter of defining some on their part, if they deemed it worthwhile.
Eh, I don't think that the cheating/sniping messes with anything from a business viewpoint. Whenever asshats are on Destiny's stream, a lot of times his viewership increases. Also, again, the players still have other options around it whether it be to play customs and not ladder or to add delay or what have you, there are ways around it. I just don't see the argument that it will help from a business side at all.
On January 20 2012 14:34 geno wrote: As others have pointed out, this is really more their policy on stream cheating, and I don't think all that many people truly criticize this stance anyways. Few would expect more than what they are doing with regards to stream cheating.
Actual stream sniping is, I think, a more appropriate problem for them to address. Being forced to play the same people over and over again that are only in it to annoy you and give you a hard time because they figured out how to game the system is most certainly something I think Blizzard should care about. Even separated from streaming, being able to time your game searches to play against particular people is highly sketchy and not a good user experience.
Ontop of the fact it'd also serve to throw a wrench into the gears of win trading.
On January 20 2012 13:51 Leeoku wrote: honest question. how hard is it to add delay...
Thing is streamers usually press the run advertising button right after the games, so for example if they delay the stream by 2 mins, if was just in the middle of the game and no body know what the hell is going on and when the ads are over, the games also end as well.
Stream sniping should simply be regarded as map hacking. If there is substantial evidence in a replay that undoubtedly shows knowledge of the opponents actions, then their account should be banned as if they were hacking.
The report should be made as a 'hacking' report, not a 'stream sniping' one. This would allow blizzard to review the image and if the snipers made it so clear that they were 'hacking' then how are blizzard to know if they were sniping.
This would certainly deter or limit the amount of snipers, if they were treated as map hackers they would rarely do it.
Edit: there is nothing actually wrong with sniping. Queueing at the same time as someone else repetitively has no negative effects on the gameplay itself. The problems with stream cheating are obvious.
Blizzard also do not need to monitor streams. Just monitor reports as per usual.
On January 20 2012 14:45 Zeke50100 wrote: "Blizzard doesn't know the difference between sniping and cheating."
Doesn't matter. If you replaced everything with details pertaining to "sniping" instead of "cheating," everything would still be outside of Blizzard's jurisdiction and reasonable ability.
Nonsense. Blizzard has complete control over the matchmaking system and thus can have an effect on (repeated) stream sniping quite easily. They just choose not to.
We’ve continued to see reports regarding someone live streaming their match, and their opponent watching the stream in order to gain an in-game advantage (also known as stream sniping).
It should be emphasised that stream sniping is not necessarily stream cheating. It's only natural that people would want to get a chance to play against celebrity gamers, and timing your queue based on someone's stream lets you do just that. Actively watching his stream while playing him is obviously wrong, of course, but just the act of timing join game is fare gaim.
Are people seriously nitpicking over the fact that Blizzard mixed up stream sniping and cheating? Who cares? Blizzard is not responsible for either of them.
On January 20 2012 14:54 run.at.me wrote: Stream sniping should simply be regarded as map hacking. If there is substantial evidence in a replay that undoubtedly shows knowledge of the opponents actions, then their account should be banned as if they were hacking.
The report should be made as a 'hacking' report, not a 'stream sniping' one. This would allow blizzard to review the image and if the snipers made it so clear that they were 'hacking' then how are blizzard to know if they were sniping.
This would certainly deter or limit the amount of snipers, if they were treated as map hackers they would rarely do it.
The problem there is that Blizzard cannot confirm that you were sniping or cheating or whatever. The most they can do is see that you had a certain stream on at the same time as playing the game. It does not prove anything. You could have it closed, or someone else in the house is watching it from a different computer. I agree that for tournaments they might be able to control this and regulate it somehow, also to us in the community it is in some way like map hacking and stream cheaters are usually frowned upon, but in the end, Blizzard can't really enforce this.
With mods, maphacks, and abuse they can prove it, it is within their game and their ability. Stream cheating is not.
EDIT: Sorry, I misread. You said to look for evidence as you would with a map hack. I agree to some point, but that is still another can of worms to open and is outside of their control.
lol at the people upset that blizzard said stream sniping instead of stream cheating. i dont think blizzard can be bothered to learn arbitrary internet jargon. and its obvious they are addressing the correct situation although they use the arbitrarily incorrect term.
In their TOS they say they can ban for ANY reason, as stated on the B.Net forums. Also, they still haven't said anything about implementing any sort of match banlist that can only be used if you were to meet players who you report multiple times. Still there should be some kind ability to not have to worry about people like this. THOUGH, i will say state that it would be best in general if instead of laddering, these players would just move to another server if possible or play customs with their in game pro friends, much better for practicing than random laddering.
if i gave out my debit card number to the public, i'd blame myself for having my money stolen. it doesn't change the fact that stealing is wrong, and whoever stole money from my account has done wrong. however, reality is that i shouldn't have done that in the first place if i really cared about keeping games honest. same applies to stream cheating.
furthermore, pro gamers are getting a free ride since they are getting paid to stream. they don't have to share a piece of their pie with blizzard for using their FREE platform (bnet) to generate income. i think that's well worth the trade-off.
On January 20 2012 14:45 Zeke50100 wrote: "Blizzard doesn't know the difference between sniping and cheating."
Doesn't matter. If you replaced everything with details pertaining to "sniping" instead of "cheating," everything would still be outside of Blizzard's jurisdiction and reasonable ability.
Nonsense. Blizzard has complete control over the matchmaking system and thus can have an effect on (repeated) stream sniping quite easily. They just choose not to.
The problem is easily solved by not streaming... This is in no way blizzards problem...
Stream cheating is watching a stream to gain an advantage. Stream sniping is watching a stream to queue for a chance to play a streamer. These are the definitions I endorse, but, community-wide, a lot of people (and not just noobs) use "sniping" to mean cheating. The distinction is not so universally known and accepted that Blizzard should be ridiculed for not being aware of it. Honestly, the term "sniping" itself lends itself to being thought of as being cheating: A sniper is someone who shoots at you when he can see you, but you can't see him--it is analogous to what stream cheaters do: they see your whole situation from a favorable perspective, but you only see what you go scout. Give Blizzard a break on their word choice.
Then--first we should be happy that Blizzard allows streaming at all--It is entirely within Blizzard's rights under the EULA to shut down anyone streaming SC2 or any other Battle.Net game
From the BNET Terms of use para 2. Additional License Limitations. .... You agree that you will not, under any circumstances: ..... exploit the Service, a Game or any part thereof for any commercial purpose, including without limitation .... (b) to communicate or facilitate any commercial advertisement or solicitation;
From the SC2 End User License Agreement: Additional License Limitations..... You agree that you will not, under any circumstances: .... Exploit the Game or any of its parts for any commercial purpose without Blizzard’s express permission, with the sole exception that you may use the Game, or copies of the Game, on the Service at a cyber cafe, computer gaming center or any other location based site;
Enable Delay before starting queue - problem solved, no? You can commentate as you play without issue. Can't be sniped as easily. People still hear you talking about the game. Then when you actually want to interact with the fans, as opposed to ladder for their viewing, you take a 5 minute break (to allow the stream to catch up), then come back live to answer questions etc, without the delay. A bit of planning would take care of this wouldn't it? I don't expect Blizzard to do anything about this... It would be a nightmare for them to police.
The level of 'interaction' everyone seems concerned about is minor from my experience of stream watching anyway...
As always...Blizzard doing a decent job not to get involved to much into this. From my point of view i actually think that Blizzard is quite nice to allow Streaming. A lot of players making money via streaming. I guess these players have to find a way around this issue. It is not Blizzard fault...
Stream sniping/trolling stream etc are the reason they we cant have good pro gaming. Simply childish behaviour...
On January 20 2012 13:50 memcpy wrote: I agree with their argument that they can't do anything because they have no current policies against stream cheating. What they could do however is add stream sniping to their policies and ban people who have been reported on multiple accounts since it's easily verifiable by looking at their match history. Doesn't seem like any more of difficult than looking into harassment cases.
Looking at their match history just verifies they played the person, it provides no indication to whether or not they were watching their stream...
Stream sniping isn't the problem, it's just a tool people use for the real problem, which is excessive harassment. How the fuck Deezer hasn't been banned for his numerous death threats against multiple players, and Destiny's kid is beyond me. I mean fuck, even constantly stalking them on ladder should constitute harassment.
the act of tormenting by continued persistent attacks and criticism
What repeated stream snipers to is a text book definition of harassment, yet Blizzard does shit all about it. I'm confused as to what they think harassment means. Note to Browder, every time I report someone for harassment, it's because they are consistently attacking someone personally, not because I want more rocks at my third. You seem to be confused.
As for people saying that streamers should a) stop streaming, or b) put in a delay, stop saying that, those are retarded ideas. People can't stop streaming on a whim, for some people it's their source of income, it's how they pay for their food, and their kids food. E-sports is in a bad enough position without us losing community members over some guys being constant douchebags. As for a delay, it stops any kind of interaction with the viewership, an important part of streaming (which is in turn an important part of the community), and fucks up ad timings.
On January 20 2012 16:20 RockIronrod wrote: Stream sniping isn't the problem, it's just a tool people use for the real problem, which is excessive harassment. How the fuck Deezer hasn't been banned for his numerous death threats against multiple players, and Destiny's kid is beyond me. I mean fuck, even constantly stalking them on ladder should constitute harassment.
the act of tormenting by continued persistent attacks and criticism
What repeated stream snipers to is a text book definition of harassment, yet Blizzard does shit all about it. I'm confused as to what they think harassment means. Note to Browder, every time I report someone for harassment, it's because they are consistently attacking someone personally, not because I want more rocks at my third. You seem to be confused.
As for people saying that streamers should a) stop streaming, or b) put in a delay, stop saying that, those are retarded ideas. People can't stop streaming on a whim, for some people it's their source of income, it's how they pay for their food, and their kids food. E-sports is in a bad enough position without us losing community members over some guy being constant douchebags. As for a delay, it stops any kind of interaction with the viewership, an important part of streaming (which is in turn an important part of the community), and fucks up ad timings.
I agree with the harassment point, but disagree with your second point. Whether or not they stream for a living or want to interact with viewers is not any concern of Blizzard's. They don't even need to allow people to stream if they don't want. I agree that it sucks for those who stream for a living, but that is their choice to do so and they should be thanking Blizzard for creating a game that allows them to do so. Not to mention they give us multiplayer and ladder for free. They could charge a stupid ass month fee like they do for games like WoW, but they don't.
It is a trade-off. Either they can stream for a living and deal with snipers/cheaters, or find a work-around. It is not any of the game designer's problem and I do not believe that it should be. Again, as their statement says, it is not their fault or concern if someone decides to give out public information that may give people a chance or ability to cheat.
I completely agree with Blizzard. However, I still think they should do something for the extreme cases (namely Deezer) and any others that are repeatedly doing this. They can't do it for the small time cases, but I do wish that they do add it on their list of rules so it is possible for them to ban someone who is continously stream cheating.
On January 20 2012 14:43 screwy474 wrote: Couldn't blizzard simply add the ability to avoid players on ladder to b.net? Wouldn't that solve the entire stream sniping issue. Then for stream cheating in tourneys they have officials to deal with that stuff so the problem would disappear. I mean I could be over simplifying this entire thing but this seems like a pretty simple fix.
You give people the ability to avoid people on ladder, then everyone will avoid people they can't beat and thus the ladder ranking system would be way off.
People are willing and intentionally showing themselves on the internet and complaining about the repercussions? This is no different then some pillock that posts nude pictures of themselves online then cries when they get revealed
Of course their response is fine, what do you expect them to do. There's no reason to rage at Blizzard over this.
Maybe they should just ban streaming or demand certain % of the income players get from streaming while at it, sounds more reasonable than the players whining at them over this matter.
On January 20 2012 14:45 Zeke50100 wrote: "Blizzard doesn't know the difference between sniping and cheating."
Doesn't matter. If you replaced everything with details pertaining to "sniping" instead of "cheating," everything would still be outside of Blizzard's jurisdiction and reasonable ability.
Nonsense. Blizzard has complete control over the matchmaking system and thus can have an effect on (repeated) stream sniping quite easily. They just choose not to.
The problem is easily solved by not streaming... This is in no way blizzards problem...
Obviously there are things that others can do to stop the problem, but Blizzard has the unique capability to do so without people needing to inhibit their streaming. Blizzard can make people not able to make more than once every hour or so. That would have fixed the problem entirely.
It's true that I don't think it'd be right for Blizzard to meddle too much in this. It's the job of tournaments to have delayed streams and for players to choose between good fan interaction and delayed streams.
I'd like to think there was some fair feature that Blizz could add to the game to prevent cheating, but I can't think of one that doesn't negatively affect the ladder experience for legitimate players.
On January 20 2012 14:45 Zeke50100 wrote: "Blizzard doesn't know the difference between sniping and cheating."
Doesn't matter. If you replaced everything with details pertaining to "sniping" instead of "cheating," everything would still be outside of Blizzard's jurisdiction and reasonable ability.
Nonsense. Blizzard has complete control over the matchmaking system and thus can have an effect on (repeated) stream sniping quite easily. They just choose not to.
The problem is easily solved by not streaming... This is in no way blizzards problem...
Obviously there are things that others can do to stop the problem, but Blizzard has the unique capability to do so without people needing to inhibit their streaming. Blizzard can make people not able to make more than once every hour or so. That would have fixed the problem entirely.
The issue with that is that legit players can no longer meet multiple times on ladder when there's no sniping involved - I've had good experiences with this even down in diamond where it's rare. Plus, dickheads like deezer have multiple accounts anyway, so they either switch account and cheat again against you, or they cheat against someone else and come back in an hour.
I don't know if it's any more advisable than stream sniping though. If anything stream sniping sounds more legit than DDOSing some guy on ladder.
But I agree, that's pretty funny ;D
Ironically, Destiny & co actually got in trouble for it. Destiny actually gets temp banned frequently for this type of behaviour/abusing the report player button.
I don't know if it's any more advisable than stream sniping though. If anything stream sniping sounds more legit than DDOSing some guy on ladder.
But I agree, that's pretty funny ;D
Ironically, Destiny & co actually got in trouble for it. Destiny actually gets temp banned frequently for this type of behaviour/abusing the report player button.
awwww really? What happened?
I mean, its pretty clear cut against the rules to grief someone like Destiny did with his followers but I still think its funny and justified against Deezer. Especially since he only does it if Deezer is stream sniping
I like the suggestion for delay, not sure if all major streaming services provide such option though. As a viewer, I wouldn't mind delay, even as far as minutes, if it helps the streamers to play better quality games.
On January 20 2012 13:50 memcpy wrote: I agree with their argument that they can't do anything because they have no current policies against stream cheating. What they could do however is add stream sniping to their policies and ban people who have been reported on multiple accounts since it's easily verifiable by looking at their match history. Doesn't seem like any more of difficult than looking into harassment cases.
it's not that cut and dry. By streaming online you're waiving your right to online privacy. If someone wants to take advantage of that fact then it's perfectly legal. Blizzard would have no legal standing to ban people that stream cheat or stream snipe. The only way Blizzard could legally stop stream cheating would be to disallow streaming of their product, which is stupid since streaming is essentially free advertising for Blizzard.
On January 20 2012 13:43 Gl!tch wrote: We are absolutely able to enforce, and will continue to do so, violations that include harassment of others in-game, use of hacks, abuse of our reporting tools, and attempts to disrupt the gameplay of others.
How does this not hurt your brain to read? It's easy to argue that streamsniping (and the worse), go under attempt to disrupt the gameplay of others. Streamcheaters sometimes even directly harass you ingame... Some of the more infamous ones harass all the time.
On January 20 2012 13:43 Gl!tch wrote: We are absolutely able to enforce, and will continue to do so, violations that include harassment of others in-game, use of hacks, abuse of our reporting tools, and attempts to disrupt the gameplay of others.
How does this not hurt your brain to read? It's easy to argue that streamsniping (and the worse), go under attempt to disrupt the gameplay of others. Streamcheaters sometimes even directly harass you ingame... Some of the more infamous ones harass all the time.
Another "not our problem" answer... g.g. blizzard
Yes, Blizzard should fix the problem of people showing themselves on the internet
In fact Blizzard should also pay my rent and buy me a new computer
to those complaining about 'Blizzard doesn't even know what the difference between stream sniping and stream cheating is loololol', what they've said basically applies to both of them anyway. Its impossible to enforce rules against someone who either stream cheats or stream snipes and you have to be stream cheating to snipe in the first place.
On January 20 2012 13:56 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote: Actually, I really dislike this decision by blizzard There is no difference between stream sniping and maphacking. It's not the streamer's fault that hes streaming, its the maphackers/snipers fault for looking at the stream. They can choose whether or not to do so, and only affect themselves. If the streamer decides to delay or shut off the stream, then he loses hundreds or thousands of viewers.
The difference is really quite simple: there's nothing you can do about a map hack. If you get map hacked... oh well. It happens. There's nothing you can do to make yourself impervious to map hacks; that's Blizzard's responsibility.
Streaming, by definition means setting up a way so that other people can watch you play live. It is a choice you, the streamer, are making. In effect, you are map hacking yourself. By simply not streaming, you make yourself 100% impervious to stream sniping.
Now, you may say that not streaming means losing viewers. And that's correct. But Blizzard does not have to enforce any particular economic model. They don't exist to make personal streaming of SC2 games economically viable. It is not their responsibility to ensure that personal streaming of SC2 even exists, let alone has viewership and enough people/ad revenue to live on.
Streaming, which fundamentally means providing people online information about your play live, has innate risks. One of those risks is the risk that someone who you don't want to watch will be watching. Like the preson you're currently playing. That's the nature of the best. Accept it and move on, or stop streaming. Those are the legitimate options.
On January 20 2012 17:38 PhiliBiRD wrote: blizzard doesnt need to do anything
the solution is simply delaying the stream.
I fucking love seeing ads instead of the end battle, and never having any sort of interaction with the streamer. And to the inevitable response, I also fucking love compromising quality so people like Deezer can jerk off over their e-infamy.
On January 20 2012 18:40 See.Blue wrote: Completely reasonable. The amount of oversight the alternative would require would make 1984 look like anarchy
How is it even comparable? A week long ban for constantly harassing players is apparently tyranny, while threatening the lives of children is just freedom of expression or something?
On January 20 2012 13:50 SKTerran.117 wrote: What else did people REALLY expect them to do?
You do know in the TOS it states they can ban your account without reason right? Do you really think the community would be outraged if Blizzard banned all of deezers accounts. Also do you think Blizzard would care about profit? He already paid for all the accounts they got their money, let them ban him imo.
On January 20 2012 13:50 SKTerran.117 wrote: What else did people REALLY expect them to do?
You do know in the TOS it states they can ban your account without reason right? Do you really think the community would be outraged if Blizzard banned all of deezers accounts. Also do you think Blizzard would care about profit? He already paid for all the accounts they got their money, let them ban him imo.
They could but why would they?
WAAAA PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY DONT LIKE DEEZER PLEASE BAN HIM BLIZZARD EVEN THOUGH HE HASNT DONE WRONG
the idea that blizzard should punish stream snipers is retarded. of course its your own fault if you stream games anbd someone uses it to kill you. its much better if they put there time into fixing things which a) are actually useful to 99% of the community b) have a reliable method of in client detection
i feel bad for people who are harassed by Deezer, CombatEZ, and there friends, but really, the amount of shit they talk in game is probably bannable anyway. it would be much better if the results disagree was fixed, or maphacks, or drop hacks. i hear that the cheat community for this game is huge and not that hard to find, so i feel that should be blizzards priority
On January 20 2012 20:09 1sz2sz3sz wrote: They could but why would they?
WAAAA PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY DONT LIKE DEEZER PLEASE BAN HIM BLIZZARD EVEN THOUGH HE HASNT DONE WRONG
Actually he manipulates the ladder system in order to get the same opponent repeatedly, not to mention harassing people and using multiple accounts to get past the fact that his first was ignored.
You'd think that would be enough, but I guess not. Seems like there's no reason not to using sniping to trade wins or whatever. I'm sure there's some method the ladder wizards could cook up to use this method.
On January 20 2012 13:50 memcpy wrote: I agree with their argument that they can't do anything because they have no current policies against stream cheating. What they could do however is add stream sniping to their policies and ban people who have been reported on multiple accounts since it's easily verifiable by looking at their match history. Doesn't seem like any more of difficult than looking into harassment cases.
it's not that cut and dry. By streaming online you're waiving your right to online privacy. If someone wants to take advantage of that fact then it's perfectly legal. Blizzard would have no legal standing to ban people that stream cheat or stream snipe. The only way Blizzard could legally stop stream cheating would be to disallow streaming of their product, which is stupid since streaming is essentially free advertising for Blizzard.
I agree that it's legal, as I stated above by saying they have no current policy against it. What I said is that they should make it an explicit banable offense. Even without doing so, Blizzard's ToS states that they are allowed to ban an account for any reason. They don't need a "legal standing".
I don't see why streamsnipe ever should be a problem. Just turn of the sound in game after each match, cut to webcamview and queue while chatting with your fans (at a random time). Problem solved...
On January 20 2012 20:09 1sz2sz3sz wrote: They could but why would they?
WAAAA PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY DONT LIKE DEEZER PLEASE BAN HIM BLIZZARD EVEN THOUGH HE HASNT DONE WRONG
Actually he manipulates the ladder system in order to get the same opponent repeatedly, not to mention harassing people and using multiple accounts to get past the fact that his first was ignored.
You'd think that would be enough, but I guess not. Seems like there's no reason not to using sniping to trade wins or whatever. I'm sure there's some method the ladder wizards could cook up to use this method.
also apparently leaving games when he doesn't get the players he likes -- and other people have been banned for that. (although the reasons for the other people are wrong, as those ones the intent is to lower their mmr, but it's still _leaving games_, which apparently is against blizzard's rules).
whenever i see a pro report a stream cheater i laugh a bit. how on earth do you think blizz is going to be able to tell if your reports are valid. really. even if they had some mega ip hacker thing you had to agree to use a friend could still watch the stream and report in. its impossible to stop really...
and yeh stream sniping is cool. i want to see ppl q up to snipe idra and other pros thats just good fun...
Yeah wtf? They're not even talking about stream sniping.
My super easy way to prevent stream sniping: After playing against someone, have it so that you can't get matched against that player for 30 minutes or so.
I think it is interesting that they highlight that harassment is a violation their comments. Although stream sniping/cheating is not against the ToS, I bet they would be more open to the idea that Deezer and CombatEX are harassing the players. There is a difference between using a stream to gain an advantage in a game and using a stream to actively harass the player and assure they cannot play with anyone else.
Stream sniping for one or a couple game(s): Ok
Stream sniping over and over until the pro player is forced to stop streaming: Not ok?
I personally would be willing to draw that distinction. Maybe Blizzard will to.
On January 20 2012 13:50 SKTerran.117 wrote: What else did people REALLY expect them to do?
You do know in the TOS it states they can ban your account without reason right? Do you really think the community would be outraged if Blizzard banned all of deezers accounts. Also do you think Blizzard would care about profit? He already paid for all the accounts they got their money, let them ban him imo.
They could but why would they?
WAAAA PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY DONT LIKE DEEZER PLEASE BAN HIM BLIZZARD EVEN THOUGH HE HASNT DONE WRONG
Deezer hacks.
Also he account shares, harasses to the fullest extent of the word, and he's constantly threatened to kill multiple people. Why do people insist on defending Deezer? He's a genuinely terrible person for no reason.
I agree with blizzard, if people want to broadcast their games then they have no right to cry if their opponents are amongst their viewers.
If Manchester United started broadcasting their strategy/tactics sessions to all their fans, would you really cry about say, Arsenal watching the broadcast and adapting too?
Broadcasting is a personal choice and it does have downsides, it is absurd to demand blizzard "do something about it".
On January 20 2012 21:06 greenknight999 wrote: I agree with blizzard, if people want to broadcast their games then they have no right to cry if their opponents are amongst their viewers.
If Manchester United started broadcasting their strategy/tactics sessions to all their fans, would you really cry about say, Arsenal watching the broadcast and adapting too?
Broadcasting is a personal choice and it does have downsides, it is absurd to demand blizzard "do something about it".
I would complain if during every training session they decided to run onto the field, shit in the goals, and then threaten to kill my son. That's just me though.
On January 20 2012 13:50 SKTerran.117 wrote: What else did people REALLY expect them to do?
You do know in the TOS it states they can ban your account without reason right? Do you really think the community would be outraged if Blizzard banned all of deezers accounts. Also do you think Blizzard would care about profit? He already paid for all the accounts they got their money, let them ban him imo.
They could but why would they?
WAAAA PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY DONT LIKE DEEZER PLEASE BAN HIM BLIZZARD EVEN THOUGH HE HASNT DONE WRONG
Deezer hacks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN7q95MZzw0 Also he account shares, harasses to the fullest extent of the word, and he's constantly threatened to kill multiple people. Why do people insist on defending Deezer? He's a genuinely terrible person for no reason.
Yet Blizzard doesn't ban him or anything? What a joke.
Again, this type of harassment is one of the prices of streaming. Blizzard can't punish someone for abusing their ladder system via a stream.
No but they can MAKE IT HARDER...
How about you give a player the right to not let certain players have them on their friends list. OR, they could make it so that in your friends list, you don't get tagged as "in-game" the second you queue for a game, making it much harder to stream snipe if streamers put up a black screen before queing.
On January 20 2012 13:54 blah_blah wrote: Encouraging to know that Blizzard can't even be bothered to figure out what stream sniping actually is.
Not sure if trolling or just didn't read
Obviously you either didn't read or you don't understand the difference between stream sniping and stream cheating. So many people don't understand the difference and it's pretty damn simple.
Stream sniping = watching stream to que up at the same time to try and get matched up against the person. There are a lot of people that turn off the stream after they get the snipe.
Stream cheating = watching the stream during play. Deezer for example, stream snipes and then stream cheats.
Please everyone learn the difference as the meanings are entirely difference.
Why doesn't Blizzard provide an argument for taking that stance? I can't imagine what it is. Why make a statement like this without defending it? We already knew that they weren't punishing stream cheating.
On January 20 2012 22:29 Liquid`Tyler wrote: Why doesn't Blizzard provide an argument for taking that stance? I can't imagine what it is. Why make a statement like this without defending it? We already knew that they weren't punishing stream cheating.
Umm this is exactly what they should do. If you dont want people sniping you, dont stream. BUT, I think streaming has far more benifits (Money) for the player then the occasional loss to sniping.
On January 20 2012 13:50 SKTerran.117 wrote: What else did people REALLY expect them to do?
You do know in the TOS it states they can ban your account without reason right? Do you really think the community would be outraged if Blizzard banned all of deezers accounts. Also do you think Blizzard would care about profit? He already paid for all the accounts they got their money, let them ban him imo.
They could but why would they?
WAAAA PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY DONT LIKE DEEZER PLEASE BAN HIM BLIZZARD EVEN THOUGH HE HASNT DONE WRONG
Deezer hacks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN7q95MZzw0 Also he account shares, harasses to the fullest extent of the word, and he's constantly threatened to kill multiple people. Why do people insist on defending Deezer? He's a genuinely terrible person for no reason.
He doesnt hack. Why post that video? Dragon got dropped because HE was using someone elses account If it was a drophack he wouldve lagged out with the countdown screen and then left.
On January 20 2012 22:29 Liquid`Tyler wrote: Why doesn't Blizzard provide an argument for taking that stance? I can't imagine what it is. Why make a statement like this without defending it? We already knew that they weren't punishing stream cheating.
Well their argument is, mostly, 1) there's no way we can enforce anything, 2) by streaming your games you are automatically giving him an advantage, wether that's good sportsmanship or not.
It's common sense obviously, so i kinda agree it's not a particularly useful statement. I kinda wish their moderators were more strict, at least that way there's no way idiots like Deezer could still play.
On January 20 2012 22:29 Liquid`Tyler wrote: Why doesn't Blizzard provide an argument for taking that stance? I can't imagine what it is. Why make a statement like this without defending it? We already knew that they weren't punishing stream cheating.
Well their argument is, mostly, 1) there's no way we can enforce anything, 2) by streaming your games you are automatically giving him an advantage, wether that's good sportsmanship or not.
It's common sense obviously, so i kinda agree it's not a particularly useful statement. I kinda wish their moderators were more strict, at least that way there's no way idiots like Deezer could still play.
But thats just the issue of streamcheating, sure stream cheating has nothing to do with their game, but stream sniping does. It doesn't make sense that someone can abuse the matchmaking system to get matched against the same person every game. It also takes away from the validity of ladder ranks (what little there is left anyway), not to mention they apparently invite people to blizzard regional invitationals based on ladder ranks.
On January 20 2012 22:29 Liquid`Tyler wrote: Why doesn't Blizzard provide an argument for taking that stance? I can't imagine what it is. Why make a statement like this without defending it? We already knew that they weren't punishing stream cheating.
Well their argument is, mostly, 1) there's no way we can enforce anything, 2) by streaming your games you are automatically giving him an advantage, wether that's good sportsmanship or not.
It's common sense obviously, so i kinda agree it's not a particularly useful statement. I kinda wish their moderators were more strict, at least that way there's no way idiots like Deezer could still play.
But thats just the issue of streamcheating, sure stream cheating has nothing to do with their game, but stream sniping does. It doesn't make sense that someone can abuse the matchmaking system to get matched against the same person every game. It also takes away from the validity of ladder ranks (what little there is left anyway), not to mention they apparently invite people to blizzard regional invitationals based on ladder ranks.
There's no difference between sniping and cheating when it comes to that, both come from you streaming and both can't be avoided through punishment of who is cheating/sniping. The only way with the current system would be to make it impossible to match up with people on your ignore list, but even that can be somehow used to trick the matchmaking system.
Of course, if ladder worked more like iccup and other bw servers, there would be no such problems in the first place, but one can dream...
On January 20 2012 13:53 0neder wrote: Blizzard has FAR more important things to fix that directly relate to the game and bnet. Stream sniping is an outside issue that should hopefully be last on their list.
So not how it works. You know they certainly don't have a list called "current sc2 issues" which they just work of one by one.
Well I'm actually suprised they even released a statement. I still don't get why they don't just permaban the IP of people like Deezer who are known to constantly stream snipe/cheat, they could atleast kill of his sc2 account. I know that wouldn't fix the issue, but it just amazes me that people like him get away with that shit ezpz.
On January 20 2012 22:29 Liquid`Tyler wrote: Why doesn't Blizzard provide an argument for taking that stance? I can't imagine what it is. Why make a statement like this without defending it? We already knew that they weren't punishing stream cheating.
I think there was an argument in that statement. Basically it is outside of their realm which is what we all suspected anyways.
Umm... actually Blizzard could do something about this.
For anyone that has ever played on Xbox Live, you know that you can set certain people you match up against to "prefer" (meaning you match up against them more) or you can "avoid" them (meaning you match up against them much less frequently). Would it be so hard for Blizzard to implement such a feature? I figure if you can block communications from a certain player, you should also be able to block, or at least, severely lower your chances of playing a certain player.
of course they cannot do anything about it. It's pretty much impossible for them to do so. It's the streamer that needs to delay his stream enough. But it's good that they are aware of it and that they actually follow the scene a lot. Because sometimes you don't know "HOW" much they follow. Everyone knows they do but how much is the question.
I'm wondering about the "Super Team Color Mod thingy" if that is illegal? I heard or saw someone write in the official thread that someone working at blizzard co said it was fine.? If someone knows the "actual" answer or better can provide a link with someone saying these exact words? ( PM ME if so )
Because i don't want to get banned for stuff like that (since i like the color mod... looks sparky :-) I would appreciate it.
On January 21 2012 00:09 Barrin wrote: The idea that Blizzard could do something about this is so ridiculous that it hadn't even crossed my mind.
I'll agree with this one, and I think that's pretty much what they're saying in the OP. I haven't seen anyone yet put forth what blizzard could/should do in order to prevent stream sniping/cheating.
On January 20 2012 22:29 Liquid`Tyler wrote: Why doesn't Blizzard provide an argument for taking that stance? I can't imagine what it is. Why make a statement like this without defending it? We already knew that they weren't punishing stream cheating.
And they just told us that they aren't planning on doing so in the future either. They're not entering a debate, they're informing.
there is no argument that blizzard is making... what or why would they do anything.. if a user decides to stream his or her matches that is there fault not blizzards... it has nothing to do with blizzard. Why would we even ask them about this...has nothing to do with them.
Even if Blizzard can't do anything directly about stream cheating/sniping, some of it obviously falls under something they say they do regulate: harassment. People like Deezer and CombatEX are obviously harassing people pretty damn hard, yet they get away with it because they're harassing with stream shenanigans? Fuck that.
On January 20 2012 13:50 SKTerran.117 wrote: What else did people REALLY expect them to do?
Let me tell you what I expected them to do.
I expected that as soon as CombatEx stream-snipes Incontrol, Incontrol climbs up the 8 stories of the EG mansion, taking a break for a MONSTER ENERGY DRINK on the fourth floor, and gets on the roof. Then he directs a floodlight into the sky, reflecting a pattern against the gray clouds -- the symbol of a hammer. The Ban Symbol.
"I hope you see this, Blizzard," Incontrol says out loud, to no one in particular. For his night is full of terrors, mostly involving perfect blind hard counters and cannon rushes.
Thousands of miles away, in Anaheim, a dark figure looks up in the sky and, despite all we understand concerning science, is able to see the Ban Symbol from Arizona. The figure raises his wrist to his face.
"Assemble the team." His voice is rich with dark purpose. He waits for their arrivals. One by one, they join him, offering no greeting save a nod of acknowledgment. They distribute their equipment and prep it, knowing that this night, they will serve full use. When all is finally ready, the figure rallies them into a sleek, winged craft, and they embark upon their secret enterprise.
No one sees them fly -- the few who are awake at this time of night don't bother to watch the murky black sky. They're too enraptured by their own personal terrors, clicking the "FIND MATCH" button and finding no one on the other side but a single, diabolical name: CombatEx.
CombatEx himself reclines in his chair, laughing, chortling with sinister amusement as he monitors multiple streams and chat rooms, proxy 2 gating another hapless victim. He thinks he hears something above the basement, but he dismisses it -- dismisses it like a fool.
The roof caves in around him. Figures in black land in the room, surrounding him on all sides, their rifles aimed at his body. He looks down at his greasy tee shirt to see a single, red dot on his heart.
Realization dawns on him.
"Wait! NO!"
"Know this," one man says. "If you snipe another player, we will snipe you."
"Unless you're just using Ghosts in-game," another adds. "That doesn't count."
A single bullet pierces his body and he slumps into his chair.
No one hears from CombatEx again, and no one knows why. Blizzard SWAT claims no credit in the Battle.net forums. Because they're the heroes that Starcraft deserves, but not the heroes that we need right now. They're watchful protectors, and when injustice strikes, they return with retribution -- Soon(TM).
So, naturally, this news comes as a bit of a disappointment to me.
On January 20 2012 13:50 SKTerran.117 wrote: What else did people REALLY expect them to do?
Let me tell you what I expected them to do.
I expected that as soon as CombatEx stream-snipes Incontrol, Incontrol climbs up the 8 stories of the EG mansion, taking a break for a MONSTER ENERGY DRINK on the fourth floor, and gets on the roof. Then he directs a floodlight into the sky, reflecting a pattern against the gray clouds -- the symbol of a hammer. The Ban Symbol.
"I hope you see this, Blizzard," Incontrol says out loud, to no one in particular. For his night is full of terrors, mostly involving perfect blind hard counters and cannon rushes.
Thousands of miles away, in Anaheim, a dark figure looks up in the sky and, despite all we understand concerning science, is able to see the Ban Symbol from Arizona. The figure raises his wrist to his face.
"Assemble the team." His voice is rich with dark purpose. He waits for their arrivals. One by one, they join him, offering no greeting save a nod of acknowledgment. They distribute their equipment and prep it, knowing that this night, they will serve full use. When all is finally ready, the figure rallies them into a sleek, winged craft, and they embark upon their secret enterprise.
No one sees them fly -- the few who are awake at this time of night don't bother to watch the murky black sky. They're too enraptured by their own personal terrors, clicking the "FIND MATCH" button and finding no one on the other side but a single, diabolical name: CombatEx.
CombatEx himself reclines in his chair, laughing, chortling with sinister amusement as he monitors multiple streams and chat rooms, proxy 2 gating another hapless victim. He thinks he hears something above the basement, but he dismisses it -- dismisses it like a fool.
The roof caves in around him. Figures in black land in the room, surrounding him on all sides, their rifles aimed at his body. He looks down at his greasy tee shirt to see a single, red dot on his heart.
Realization dawns on him.
"Wait! NO!"
"Know this," one man says. "If you snipe another player, we will snipe you."
"Unless you're just using Ghosts in-game," another adds. "That doesn't count."
A single bullet pierces his body and he slumps into his chair.
No one hears from CombatEx again, and no one knows why. Blizzard SWAT claims no credit in the Battle.net forums. Because they're the heroes that Starcraft deserves, but not the heroes that we need right now. They're watchful protectors, and when injustice strikes, they return with retribution -- Soon(TM).
So, naturally, this news comes as a bit of a disappointment to me.
Oh dear lord! That was so awesome!
Couldn't blizz add something to make sure that if you face the same player 3 times during 24 hours you will be unable to find this player again for the remaining 24 hours. I still remember Idra playing combatEX for so so so many games in a row. I don't understand why this is so...
On January 20 2012 13:50 SKTerran.117 wrote: What else did people REALLY expect them to do?
Let me tell you what I expected them to do.
I expected that as soon as CombatEx stream-snipes Incontrol, Incontrol climbs up the 8 stories of the EG mansion, taking a break for a MONSTER ENERGY DRINK on the fourth floor, and gets on the roof. Then he directs a floodlight into the sky, reflecting a pattern against the gray clouds -- the symbol of a hammer. The Ban Symbol.
"I hope you see this, Blizzard," Incontrol says out loud, to no one in particular. For his night is full of terrors, mostly involving perfect blind hard counters and cannon rushes.
Thousands of miles away, in Anaheim, a dark figure looks up in the sky and, despite all we understand concerning science, is able to see the Ban Symbol from Arizona. The figure raises his wrist to his face.
"Assemble the team." His voice is rich with dark purpose. He waits for their arrivals. One by one, they join him, offering no greeting save a nod of acknowledgment. They distribute their equipment and prep it, knowing that this night, they will serve full use. When all is finally ready, the figure rallies them into a sleek, winged craft, and they embark upon their secret enterprise.
No one sees them fly -- the few who are awake at this time of night don't bother to watch the murky black sky. They're too enraptured by their own personal terrors, clicking the "FIND MATCH" button and finding no one on the other side but a single, diabolical name: CombatEx.
CombatEx himself reclines in his chair, laughing, chortling with sinister amusement as he monitors multiple streams and chat rooms, proxy 2 gating another hapless victim. He thinks he hears something above the basement, but he dismisses it -- dismisses it like a fool.
The roof caves in around him. Figures in black land in the room, surrounding him on all sides, their rifles aimed at his body. He looks down at his greasy tee shirt to see a single, red dot on his heart.
Realization dawns on him.
"Wait! NO!"
"Know this," one man says. "If you snipe another player, we will snipe you."
"Unless you're just using Ghosts in-game," another adds. "That doesn't count."
A single bullet pierces his body and he slumps into his chair.
No one hears from CombatEx again, and no one knows why. Blizzard SWAT claims no credit in the Battle.net forums. Because they're the heroes that Starcraft deserves, but not the heroes that we need right now. They're watchful protectors, and when injustice strikes, they return with retribution -- Soon(TM).
So, naturally, this news comes as a bit of a disappointment to me.
Oh dear lord! That was so awesome!
Couldn't blizz add something to make sure that if you face the same player 3 times during 24 hours you will be unable to find this player again for the remaining 24 hours. I still remember Idra playing combatEX for so so so many games in a row. I don't understand why this is so...
I'm sure they could, but i'm also sure something like that could then be exploited or mess with the ladder in general.
I pretty much agree with Zarepath. I sort of just assumed that these sort of things were already happening and CombatEX/Deezer were now living in caves? Guess not.
Really, I never expected Blizzard to do anything about watching a stream and using it to your advantage. I never expected them to do anything about stream sniping, either... I just expected them to do something about abusing it to face one player over and over again. Seems like even if they were doing it without the stream (just leaving games and rejoining until the opponent was cleared) it would be abuse then, too.
i feel like if they just implemented something on b-net that made it so that two people wouldn't get matched up more than 1 time within one hour that might resolve the issue (or something to that effect)
is stream sniping even a problem?? So what if someone steals some ladder points by watching someone's stream while playing against him. The other guy can just stop streaming or put a delay in the stream when he really cares..
I can't believe how unrealistic people can be that they expect this to be enforceable. If Deezer or Swoozy is your opponent just black out the stream. Jesus christ.
Well, solution is easy. Let a player can ban, like let's say, three users. Out of 3-4 million players banning 3 of them does not damage the fair competition. I think Blizzard argument is weak and shows they didn't think about it at all. I mean Destiny should be able to block Deezer. It is like excluding maps.
On January 20 2012 22:29 Liquid`Tyler wrote: Why doesn't Blizzard provide an argument for taking that stance? I can't imagine what it is. Why make a statement like this without defending it? We already knew that they weren't punishing stream cheating.
once again...people who think its Blizzards responsibility to fix stream snipers/cheaters....you guys need to learn what the streamers are agreeing to by streaming their game
There is a reason why the only tournaments streamed live that are cheat free are IEM/MLG/GSL...and others like that where the players are in the booth and not able to watch the stream
Streamers may be pissed at "GOT STREAM CHEATED RAWR!" but its their fault for streaming the games...Idra against combatex just leaves...if he is streaming...doesn't matter....AT ALL...you get mad b/c you give your opponent the opportunity to cheat...
In all honesty, people who stream snipe, are harrassing their opponent.
It is only in a non-writen / free view map hack type of way. It is also very obvious when someone is stream sniping to anyone who knows anything about the game. Blind counters to a hidden third, or whatever it might be. Knowing exactly where and when your opponent is transfering workers. What unit composition they have (with out scouting).
It would be, interesting to see if blizzard would actually consider stream sniping harassment even if they players are giving an advantage to another and while we all agree it is stupid to do. (Save some well known players, who do it for the lulz I suppose and nothing against them, they are decent players) It is still foolish to do.
And steam sniping, IS Queing up to match vs someone (hopefully) but why close the stream if you have a second monitor to have going, to look over at now and then to see just what they are doing? C'mon.
Anyway, thank you Blizz for the clarification on what you view as punishable, given we understand you can't do everything right with SC2.........(depending on your look at it? nothing at all)
I agree with Blizzards argument that if someone chooses to take the risk and stream games, then thats their risk they take when someone cheats it. I think its more on the users side/ technical setup to make their a better way to add a delay to the stream and I think programs such as xsplit should be asked to create such a setting.
Yes its annoying but one of those things that you can't really try and make illegal.
--We’ve continued to see reports regarding someone live streaming their match, and their opponent watching the stream in order to gain an in-game advantage (also known as stream sniping). Stream sniping is finding a match simultaneously with a player to have a greater chance of playing that player.
--While this is obviously poor sportsmanship on the part of the one viewing the stream, we’d like to clarify that this is not a violation of any current policies. It's your choice to allow poor sportsmanship under current policies. This is an empty statement.
--In fact, we cannot enforce any ‘fair play’ policies if a user chooses to provide their opponent an advantage. There's nothing about a player doing something that enables their opponent to cheat that prevents you from acting.
--If someone in-game chooses to tell their opponent every move they’re making, thereby informing them how to counter it, we cannot conclude that any violation has taken place. This is irrelevant because of the difference between in-game information and out-of-game information.
--Even if this could be considered a violation, we simply cannot micro-manage every streamed match to ensure the opponent was not looking at it, or using it to their advantage. Inability to perfectly enforce a rule has never been a legitimate reason to not create a rule that needs to be enforced.
--It goes far beyond the scope of what we’re able to enforce. If you can't do it, then give power to people who can. There are trustworthy and knowledgeable people in the community that you could consult for free.
On January 20 2012 22:29 Liquid`Tyler wrote: Why doesn't Blizzard provide an argument for taking that stance? I can't imagine what it is. Why make a statement like this without defending it? We already knew that they weren't punishing stream cheating.
I think they did provide an argument.
What is it?
Pretty much that if you take the risk to stream, things like this can happening. You give a person the opportunity to cheat which is outside of misusing the program itself, you can't really expect blizzard to take action.
What should be done is getting xsplit to create some type of delay within streams that completely undoes this problem.
Also no offense but this is a problem for the smallest percentage of players and much more things that blizzard could be doing.
On January 21 2012 01:59 Liquid`Tyler wrote: --We’ve continued to see reports regarding someone live streaming their match, and their opponent watching the stream in order to gain an in-game advantage (also known as stream sniping). Stream sniping is finding a match simultaneously with a player to have a greater chance of playing that player.
--While this is obviously poor sportsmanship on the part of the one viewing the stream, we’d like to clarify that this is not a violation of any current policies. It's your choice to allow poor sportsmanship under current policies. This is an empty statement.
--In fact, we cannot enforce any ‘fair play’ policies if a user chooses to provide their opponent an advantage. There's nothing about a player doing something that enables their opponent to cheat that prevents you from acting.
--If someone in-game chooses to tell their opponent every move they’re making, thereby informing them how to counter it, we cannot conclude that any violation has taken place. This is irrelevant because of the difference between in-game information and out-of-game information.
--Even if this could be considered a violation, we simply cannot micro-manage every streamed match to ensure the opponent was not looking at it, or using it to their advantage. Inability to perfectly enforce a rule has never been a legitimate reason to not create a rule that needs to be enforced.
--It goes far beyond the scope of what we’re able to enforce. If you can't do it, then give power to people who can. There are trustworthy and knowledgeable people in the community that you could consult for free.
In the most likely misquoted words of Artosis "I have always said Tyler was smart."
On January 21 2012 01:59 Liquid`Tyler wrote: --We’ve continued to see reports regarding someone live streaming their match, and their opponent watching the stream in order to gain an in-game advantage (also known as stream sniping). Stream sniping is finding a match simultaneously with a player to have a greater chance of playing that player.
--While this is obviously poor sportsmanship on the part of the one viewing the stream, we’d like to clarify that this is not a violation of any current policies. It's your choice to allow poor sportsmanship under current policies. This is an empty statement.
--In fact, we cannot enforce any ‘fair play’ policies if a user chooses to provide their opponent an advantage. There's nothing about a player doing something that enables their opponent to cheat that prevents you from acting.
--If someone in-game chooses to tell their opponent every move they’re making, thereby informing them how to counter it, we cannot conclude that any violation has taken place. This is irrelevant because of the difference between in-game information and out-of-game information.
--Even if this could be considered a violation, we simply cannot micro-manage every streamed match to ensure the opponent was not looking at it, or using it to their advantage. Inability to perfectly enforce a rule has never been a legitimate reason to not create a rule that needs to be enforced.
--It goes far beyond the scope of what we’re able to enforce. If you can't do it, then give power to people who can. There are trustworthy and knowledgeable people in the community that you could consult for free.
What do you suggest? Obviously no one who frequently watches player streams like seeing assholes like Deezer again and again. Just about everyone who streams agree something should be done, but no one has any concrete ideas except Blizz needs to fix this shit.
On January 21 2012 01:59 Liquid`Tyler wrote: --In fact, we cannot enforce any ‘fair play’ policies if a user chooses to provide their opponent an advantage. There's nothing about a player doing something that enables their opponent to cheat that prevents you from acting.
So you're saying that even though the player who streams makes it possible to get cheated it's Blizzards responsibility to somehow prevent it from happening/punish it? How would that work in practice? What would stop everyone and their mum starting to stream their games and then claiming "streamcheat!!!11" everytime they lose? I mean I could say so even if I don't stream, should Blizzard then go out of their way to investigate if I even have a stream, streamed at that time, etc..?
What about stream delay, as has been suggested thousands of times? It's easy to do afaik, yet it somehow always gets ignored as a possible solution?
While it realistic isn't possible for blizzard to fairly act on this- they could make it so that a person cannot play the same person on ladder for a set time period.
That deals with stream sniping with also addressing the annoying problem of getting the same person on ladder.
Does anyone remember the whole "we're not including LAN" announcement Q&A/debacle? Blizzard said they were going to use Battle.net to help protect professional players from abuse. In other words, they put the onus on themselves to police esports by their own admission. Now they've taken the stance "oh, there's nothing we can do." Well, if Blizzard can't fulfill their promise to properly police their own game, they should quit shoving the "feature" (no LAN) down our throat that they touted as the tool to do it.
They took away our LAN. It's perfectly reasonable for us to expect them to police stream sniping.
With StarCraft II now on store shelves worldwide, we're excited to see the competitive tournament scene heating up. We'd like to remind everyone that a tournament license is required for any organizer interested in operating a StarCraft II event. Check below for more information on the process; we look forward to seeing your event!
Q&A:
Q: Why does Blizzard Entertainment require a license to run a tournament? A: There are several reasons why we require a license. The licensing system allows us to help monitor and promote ongoing events, and to encourage more players to participate in community tournaments. Additionally, the licensing system allows Blizzard to verify that our games are used properly and protects our intellectual property.
Q: Are there any fees associated with acquiring a StarCraft II tournament license? A: Tournament licenses are generally free. To protect our players, we may require that organizers adhere to additional rules and regulations if the organizer charges entry fees and/or intends to pay out large cash prizes.
Q: How do I get a StarCraft II tournament license? A: Fill out the tournament form located here. ( http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/community/esports/ ) Most general tournament requests will be approved instantly. Additional review time may be required before the approval of a license request, depending on the scope of the tournament and the number of incoming requests. We appreciate your patience!
If you have additional questions, please email sc-tourneyinfo@blizzard.com. See you on Battle.net!
I know that it's not 100% relevant to streaming and non-tournament activities, but I still believe the message is there. "We're forcing everything through Battle.net. That's a good thing because it means we can stop shenanigans." By the way, in the part that I bolded...they implied that they could, in fact, verify individual games.
On January 21 2012 02:07 Ownos wrote: Couldn't any of this fall under harassment? I mean if you can get banned for saying some curse words over battle.net...
The same argument could be made for streaming then - As a non-streamer I don't wan't people to see me playing, if so I would stream myself - why should you as a streamer have the right to force me to play publicly? If you want to play publicly (which streaming is) then you'll need to accept the possible downsides.
I don't get why people are so riled up about this - add a 5 mins delay to the stream if you think it is such a big problem (every major streamplatform lets you do this and it is litterally 1 click with the mouse in the streamsetup).
This isn't Blizzards problem and a solution already exists.
On January 21 2012 02:46 Ghostcom wrote: The same argument could be made for streaming then - As a non-streamer I don't wan't people to see me playing, if so I would stream myself - why should you as a streamer have the right to force me to play publicly?
If you don't want your private games to be seen, then don't play private games with a streamer. If you are playing public games, like ladder, then your play is already public. This is no different than replays.
On January 21 2012 02:44 Klondikebar wrote: Does anyone remember the whole "we're not including LAN" announcement Q&A/debacle? Blizzard said they were going to use Battle.net to help protect professional players from abuse. In other words, they put the onus on themselves to police esports by their own admission. Now they've taken the stance "oh, there's nothing we can do." Well, if Blizzard can't fulfill their promise to properly police their own game, they should quit shoving the "feature" (no LAN) down our throat that they touted as the tool to do it.
They took away our LAN. It's perfectly reasonable for us to expect them to police stream sniping.
With StarCraft II now on store shelves worldwide, we're excited to see the competitive tournament scene heating up. We'd like to remind everyone that a tournament license is required for any organizer interested in operating a StarCraft II event. Check below for more information on the process; we look forward to seeing your event!
Q&A:
Q: Why does Blizzard Entertainment require a license to run a tournament? A: There are several reasons why we require a license. The licensing system allows us to help monitor and promote ongoing events, and to encourage more players to participate in community tournaments. Additionally, the licensing system allows Blizzard to verify that our games are used properly and protects our intellectual property.
Q: Are there any fees associated with acquiring a StarCraft II tournament license? A: Tournament licenses are generally free. To protect our players, we may require that organizers adhere to additional rules and regulations if the organizer charges entry fees and/or intends to pay out large cash prizes.
Q: How do I get a StarCraft II tournament license? A: Fill out the tournament form located here. ( http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/community/esports/ ) Most general tournament requests will be approved instantly. Additional review time may be required before the approval of a license request, depending on the scope of the tournament and the number of incoming requests. We appreciate your patience!
If you have additional questions, please email sc-tourneyinfo@blizzard.com. See you on Battle.net!
I know that it's not 100% relevant to streaming and non-tournament activities, but I still believe the message is there. "We're forcing everything through Battle.net. That's a good thing because it means we can stop shenanigans." By the way, in the part that I bolded...they implied that they could, in fact, verify individual games.
I dont remember anyone pointing out in the TOS that blizzard can ban anyone for whatever reason they wanted regardless if it was exterior to the game, I think this whole "blizzard owes us they need to police this" is the opinion of those that are either uninformed or just ignoring logic completely.
I dont think blizzard should have to have even made THIS statement, i was under the impression that everyone KNEW why they weren't banning people.
Sure we all rage and thats fine and all, but to think that this is within the scope of bannable offense is idiotic in my opinion.
Stream sniping is just apart of the streaming experience. If you don't like stream sniping happening to you, there are some barriers in place that will minimize it. But to think that something major can be done to prevent stream sniping across all streamers is simply asking for too much. This is something we just have to live with.
Well, Blizzard can't do much about it. It is just a natural consequence of showing people your game, as then people may be watching. Not worth spending any energy on it.
On January 21 2012 02:46 Ghostcom wrote: The same argument could be made for streaming then - As a non-streamer I don't wan't people to see me playing, if so I would stream myself - why should you as a streamer have the right to force me to play publicly?
If you don't want your private games to be seen, then don't play private games with a streamer. If you are playing public games, like ladder, then your play is already public. This is no different than replays.
Seeing how Blizzard never invented a spectator option to the ladder, nor when watching replays I dare say that the only way a ladder match is going to be public is because you stream it...
If you are going to stream to achieve add-revenue/fame/whatever drives you, you are going to have to accept that it can have a downside to you, just like I have to accept that because I'm good enough to get masters/grandmasters every once in a while I'll have to play vs a streamer with a stream full of people calling my play shit.... I don't get why you feel like Blizzard should fix something there is already a solution for (add a delay or don't stream at all).
Couldn't players really aggravated with stream sniping talk to the stream providers (twitch, own3d, ect) so they add a 5+ minute delay on the stream? I guess they would have to redesign the chat but it seems that for short period of time (a specific player sniping another continuously) a delay of unknown time could be added to prevent this.
uhh yeah anyone not delaying their stream and complaining about this had personal issues. it would be like playing poker with your cards face up and bitching that he looked at them.
On January 21 2012 01:59 Liquid`Tyler wrote: --We’ve continued to see reports regarding someone live streaming their match, and their opponent watching the stream in order to gain an in-game advantage (also known as stream sniping). Stream sniping is finding a match simultaneously with a player to have a greater chance of playing that player.
--While this is obviously poor sportsmanship on the part of the one viewing the stream, we’d like to clarify that this is not a violation of any current policies. It's your choice to allow poor sportsmanship under current policies. This is an empty statement.
--In fact, we cannot enforce any ‘fair play’ policies if a user chooses to provide their opponent an advantage. There's nothing about a player doing something that enables their opponent to cheat that prevents you from acting.
--If someone in-game chooses to tell their opponent every move they’re making, thereby informing them how to counter it, we cannot conclude that any violation has taken place. This is irrelevant because of the difference between in-game information and out-of-game information.
--Even if this could be considered a violation, we simply cannot micro-manage every streamed match to ensure the opponent was not looking at it, or using it to their advantage. Inability to perfectly enforce a rule has never been a legitimate reason to not create a rule that needs to be enforced.
--It goes far beyond the scope of what we’re able to enforce. If you can't do it, then give power to people who can. There are trustworthy and knowledgeable people in the community that you could consult for free.
Although I agree with spirit of what you are saying, Tyler, I have to agree with Blizzard. They have to fight the fights they can win, rather than the fights that are worth fighting. Stream cheating and sniping is a problem for pro players that stream, but Blizzard has to focus on what they can control, which is battle.net and SC2. They are also limited by the language in the TOS. I have not reviewed it in depth, but it may be that stream cheating does not violation the agreement. If I were to bet, it is likley unclear legally if it does and Blizzard and their legal department would not feel comfortable enforcing the no cheating rule in regards to stream cheating. Although people argue that Blizzard can "ban your account for any reason by the TOS", they would still need to explain themselves is a legal action.
The best route to deal with the streaming issue is to focus on the issue of harassment. There is no question that Deezer and CombatEX harassing pro players. The levels and efforts that they both go to make sure that professional players cannot play against anyone else goes well beyond stream cheating. It is true harassment and would be quickly dealt with on any other service. Queing up with the sole purpose of playing a pro player. Gaming the ranking system to assure you have the same MMR as a specific player and having multipule accounts to assure those players cannot use smurfs is well beyond anything Blizzard addressed in their post. If they want to do right by the community and pro players, they need to address streaming being used as a tool to assist in harassing pro players through battle.net.
On January 21 2012 03:16 Steel wrote: Couldn't players really aggravated with stream sniping talk to the stream providers (twitch, own3d, ect) so they add a 5+ minute delay on the stream? I guess they would have to redesign the chat but it seems that for short period of time (a specific player sniping another continuously) a delay of unknown time could be added to prevent this.
I'm not sure if this is what you meant but non-theles I like the idea of having an on the fly delay that you can just flip on at any given point, but it has big issues when considering viewer interation and the quality of the stream. I mean it would be weird to see it happen seeing as if you were to say flip on a 5 minute delay, that delay would have to be created. You could fill that spot with commercials or whatever, but i think to get a relevant delay to integrate well with a continuous stream would be an issue.
Also coming back OUT of a delay would be an issue, thats a chunk of time taken out of the stream. I think these would be massive issues for any streamer that cares about viewer interaction.
I dont think twitch will integrate something like that. Black-screen sucks but thats just something you have to deal depending on the stream your watching.
just flat out having a delay forever is also horrible as far as viewer interaction goes.
I understand that Blizz can't really do anything about the stream snipers and such. Perhaps the streaming sites could enforce IP bans on proven offenders? Delays seem like a bad option since (like everyone has said) that kills user interaction. Maybe we can just get Blizzard and the various streaming sites to just completely ban/blacklist the likes of Deezer and CombatEx lol?
On January 20 2012 13:56 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote: The problem I have with this is in cases when combatEZ and deezer prevent a progamer from practicing because they stream snipe them so much (others players do it too but none nearly so well-known). They're trying to make a living, especially in the case of destiny, where viewer numbers matter(ed?) while the sniper is trying to be a nuisance. There's a huge difference.
Actually, I really dislike this decision by blizzard There is no difference between stream sniping and maphacking. It's not the streamer's fault that hes streaming, its the maphackers/snipers fault for looking at the stream. They can choose whether or not to do so, and only affect themselves. If the streamer decides to delay or shut off the stream, then he loses hundreds or thousands of viewers.
Demuslim handles this very well, he just makes fun of the sniper and mercilessly beats him game after game while giving him tips. When he was losing games, he put the camera on his face and every few minutes would talk about how hes facing combatEZ and trashing him, and he made us have a good time regardless.
No, it actually is 100% the streamers *fault* that he's streaming ... there is nothing wrong with it but the streamer is literally making the choice to broadcast everything he does... there is something unethical in abusing that, and frankly I've seen deezer ruin so many streams over and over that I conisder one of the greatest wastes of space is all of e-ports...
map hacks and streamcheating might effect the game in the same way, but they are totally different things - I would have thought though that using the stream to game the match making system and ensure you get the same op every time (ala deezer... god wow he's pro skills at ruining streams) would be a no-no as it is abusing the ladder system... but oh well.
I don't blame bilzzard for there position on this... we all knew the best way to stop it was put things on delay, which is often very hard ... but it is what it is.
Is there a reason streamers can't just not show their SC2 screen while they're hitting the find match button? As far as I understand, people snipe by hitting "find match" at the same time as the streamer, but if the screen's blacked out for a minute or two and the streamer hits the button at a random time and doesn't show the game screen until a match is found, wouldn't that prevent sniping without having to use a delay?
Obviously if you get matched randomly against someone that's gonna cheat there's nothing you can do, but the chances of that happening are fairly low.
On January 21 2012 02:44 Klondikebar wrote: Does anyone remember the whole "we're not including LAN" announcement Q&A/debacle? Blizzard said they were going to use Battle.net to help protect professional players from abuse. In other words, they put the onus on themselves to police esports by their own admission. Now they've taken the stance "oh, there's nothing we can do." Well, if Blizzard can't fulfill their promise to properly police their own game, they should quit shoving the "feature" (no LAN) down our throat that they touted as the tool to do it.
They took away our LAN. It's perfectly reasonable for us to expect them to police stream sniping.
With StarCraft II now on store shelves worldwide, we're excited to see the competitive tournament scene heating up. We'd like to remind everyone that a tournament license is required for any organizer interested in operating a StarCraft II event. Check below for more information on the process; we look forward to seeing your event!
Q&A:
Q: Why does Blizzard Entertainment require a license to run a tournament? A: There are several reasons why we require a license. The licensing system allows us to help monitor and promote ongoing events, and to encourage more players to participate in community tournaments. Additionally, the licensing system allows Blizzard to verify that our games are used properly and protects our intellectual property.
Q: Are there any fees associated with acquiring a StarCraft II tournament license? A: Tournament licenses are generally free. To protect our players, we may require that organizers adhere to additional rules and regulations if the organizer charges entry fees and/or intends to pay out large cash prizes.
Q: How do I get a StarCraft II tournament license? A: Fill out the tournament form located here. ( http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/community/esports/ ) Most general tournament requests will be approved instantly. Additional review time may be required before the approval of a license request, depending on the scope of the tournament and the number of incoming requests. We appreciate your patience!
If you have additional questions, please email sc-tourneyinfo@blizzard.com. See you on Battle.net!
I know that it's not 100% relevant to streaming and non-tournament activities, but I still believe the message is there. "We're forcing everything through Battle.net. That's a good thing because it means we can stop shenanigans." By the way, in the part that I bolded...they implied that they could, in fact, verify individual games.
I dont remember anyone pointing out in the TOS that blizzard can ban anyone for whatever reason they wanted regardless if it was exterior to the game, I think this whole "blizzard owes us they need to police this" is the opinion of those that are either uninformed or just ignoring logic completely.
I dont think blizzard should have to have even made THIS statement, i was under the impression that everyone KNEW why they weren't banning people.
Sure we all rage and thats fine and all, but to think that this is within the scope of bannable offense is idiotic in my opinion.
It's their game! Yes, they can ban people for whatever reason they want. You could easily fit "stream sniping" into any number of terms against the TOS.
1. Using a third party program to gain an advantage. 2. Cheating. 3. Harassment. 4. Fair Play
Hell, they could just say "we don't think you're playing with spirit in which Starcraft 2 is meant to be played so we're banning you."
The point of the statement was to say that they're not going to put stream sniping in any of those categories. I disagree with them because I believe it defies the logic that we were given when the game first released. I don't expect my opinion to matter so I'm not going to sit in this thread for too long. I'm just putting forward the position that:
1. It is, in fact, Blizzard's job to police things like this. 2. Their statement is both contrary to what they have told us before and rather uninformative as we already knew they weren't banning people for stream sniping.
On January 21 2012 02:46 Ghostcom wrote: The same argument could be made for streaming then - As a non-streamer I don't wan't people to see me playing, if so I would stream myself - why should you as a streamer have the right to force me to play publicly?
If you don't want your private games to be seen, then don't play private games with a streamer. If you are playing public games, like ladder, then your play is already public. This is no different than replays.
You just provided your own argument as to why stream cheating/sniping is ok. If you don't want to be stream cheated, then don't stream. If you are streaming then your play is already public.
On January 21 2012 03:44 SCbiff wrote: I have an idea, why not make it so that I can't be matched up with people on my ignore list?
It would be too easy to just put anyone who beats you on ignore and game the system that way. Doesn't really matter if you're in lower leagues, but imagine the advantage a lower GM player who blocks all the best pros would have. If you were an EU GM trying to rank up and you had the option of never having to face Stephano, wouldn't you take it?
On January 21 2012 03:44 SCbiff wrote: I have an idea, why not make it so that I can't be matched up with people on my ignore list?
Stephano tears through EU ladder, winning everything. Top 100 players say screw that, I don't wanna lose any more points to him and puts him on ignore. Stephano is unable to find a decent opponent and may as well stop playing ladder.
pardon me, but I wonder if it is also legitimate (from Blizzard's point of view/regarding the user policy) to lose games on purpose to drop into lower leagues (troll games etc.)... Just interested, because I just lost again to a player who was in silver leauge, but apparently was high diamond in previous seasons.
On January 21 2012 02:44 Klondikebar wrote: Does anyone remember the whole "we're not including LAN" announcement Q&A/debacle? Blizzard said they were going to use Battle.net to help protect professional players from abuse. In other words, they put the onus on themselves to police esports by their own admission. Now they've taken the stance "oh, there's nothing we can do." Well, if Blizzard can't fulfill their promise to properly police their own game, they should quit shoving the "feature" (no LAN) down our throat that they touted as the tool to do it.
They took away our LAN. It's perfectly reasonable for us to expect them to police stream sniping.
With StarCraft II now on store shelves worldwide, we're excited to see the competitive tournament scene heating up. We'd like to remind everyone that a tournament license is required for any organizer interested in operating a StarCraft II event. Check below for more information on the process; we look forward to seeing your event!
Q&A:
Q: Why does Blizzard Entertainment require a license to run a tournament? A: There are several reasons why we require a license. The licensing system allows us to help monitor and promote ongoing events, and to encourage more players to participate in community tournaments. Additionally, the licensing system allows Blizzard to verify that our games are used properly and protects our intellectual property.
Q: Are there any fees associated with acquiring a StarCraft II tournament license? A: Tournament licenses are generally free. To protect our players, we may require that organizers adhere to additional rules and regulations if the organizer charges entry fees and/or intends to pay out large cash prizes.
Q: How do I get a StarCraft II tournament license? A: Fill out the tournament form located here. ( http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/community/esports/ ) Most general tournament requests will be approved instantly. Additional review time may be required before the approval of a license request, depending on the scope of the tournament and the number of incoming requests. We appreciate your patience!
If you have additional questions, please email sc-tourneyinfo@blizzard.com. See you on Battle.net!
I know that it's not 100% relevant to streaming and non-tournament activities, but I still believe the message is there. "We're forcing everything through Battle.net. That's a good thing because it means we can stop shenanigans." By the way, in the part that I bolded...they implied that they could, in fact, verify individual games.
I dont remember anyone pointing out in the TOS that blizzard can ban anyone for whatever reason they wanted regardless if it was exterior to the game, I think this whole "blizzard owes us they need to police this" is the opinion of those that are either uninformed or just ignoring logic completely.
I dont think blizzard should have to have even made THIS statement, i was under the impression that everyone KNEW why they weren't banning people.
Sure we all rage and thats fine and all, but to think that this is within the scope of bannable offense is idiotic in my opinion.
It's their game! Yes, they can ban people for whatever reason they want. You could easily fit "stream sniping" into any number of terms against the TOS.
1. Using a third party program to gain an advantage. 2. Cheating. 3. Harassment. 4. Fair Play
Hell, they could just say "we don't think you're playing with spirit in which Starcraft 2 is meant to be played so we're banning you."
The point of the statement was to say that they're not going to put stream sniping in any of those categories. I disagree with them because I believe it defies the logic that we were given when the game first released. I don't expect my opinion to matter so I'm not going to sit in this thread for too long. I'm just putting forward the position that:
1. It is, in fact, Blizzard's job to police things like this. 2. Their statement is both contrary to what they have told us before and rather uninformative as we already knew they weren't banning people for stream sniping.
This is something external to the game that the streamer exposes himself to. It is NOT blizzards job to police something like this. As they said it is out of blizzards scope. The game itself is completely irrelevant.
to clarify blizzard specifically state exactly this, that they cannot enforce any fair play policies if it is the players choice to expose himself to such a risk.
On January 21 2012 03:50 Creager wrote: pardon me, but I wonder if it is also legitimate (from Blizzard's point of view/regarding the user policy) to lose games on purpose to drop into lower leagues (troll games etc.)... Just interested, because I just lost again to a player who was in silver leauge, but apparently was high diamond in previous seasons.
It is, you can report them.
Also, I like how I wasn't the only one who immediately thought "if you could avoid specific people on ladder, I would ignore the shit out of Stephano"
On January 21 2012 03:44 SCbiff wrote: I have an idea, why not make it so that I can't be matched up with people on my ignore list?
It would be too easy to just put anyone who beats you on ignore and game the system that way. Doesn't really matter if you're in lower leagues, but imagine the advantage a lower GM player who blocks all the best pros would have. If you were an EU GM trying to rank up and you had the option of never having to face Stephano, wouldn't you take it?
But you'd also not rank up as fast because, in general, the people who beat you are the people higher than you. Beating people at or near your level doesn't move you up the ladder very fast. In fact, as you can see by watch people play at the top of GM, when you are playing people around your level all the time, it's very hard to even hold your rank because each loss count way more than a win.
On January 21 2012 02:44 Klondikebar wrote: Does anyone remember the whole "we're not including LAN" announcement Q&A/debacle? Blizzard said they were going to use Battle.net to help protect professional players from abuse. In other words, they put the onus on themselves to police esports by their own admission. Now they've taken the stance "oh, there's nothing we can do." Well, if Blizzard can't fulfill their promise to properly police their own game, they should quit shoving the "feature" (no LAN) down our throat that they touted as the tool to do it.
They took away our LAN. It's perfectly reasonable for us to expect them to police stream sniping.
With StarCraft II now on store shelves worldwide, we're excited to see the competitive tournament scene heating up. We'd like to remind everyone that a tournament license is required for any organizer interested in operating a StarCraft II event. Check below for more information on the process; we look forward to seeing your event!
Q&A:
Q: Why does Blizzard Entertainment require a license to run a tournament? A: There are several reasons why we require a license. The licensing system allows us to help monitor and promote ongoing events, and to encourage more players to participate in community tournaments. Additionally, the licensing system allows Blizzard to verify that our games are used properly and protects our intellectual property.
Q: Are there any fees associated with acquiring a StarCraft II tournament license? A: Tournament licenses are generally free. To protect our players, we may require that organizers adhere to additional rules and regulations if the organizer charges entry fees and/or intends to pay out large cash prizes.
Q: How do I get a StarCraft II tournament license? A: Fill out the tournament form located here. ( http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/community/esports/ ) Most general tournament requests will be approved instantly. Additional review time may be required before the approval of a license request, depending on the scope of the tournament and the number of incoming requests. We appreciate your patience!
If you have additional questions, please email sc-tourneyinfo@blizzard.com. See you on Battle.net!
I know that it's not 100% relevant to streaming and non-tournament activities, but I still believe the message is there. "We're forcing everything through Battle.net. That's a good thing because it means we can stop shenanigans." By the way, in the part that I bolded...they implied that they could, in fact, verify individual games.
I dont remember anyone pointing out in the TOS that blizzard can ban anyone for whatever reason they wanted regardless if it was exterior to the game, I think this whole "blizzard owes us they need to police this" is the opinion of those that are either uninformed or just ignoring logic completely.
I dont think blizzard should have to have even made THIS statement, i was under the impression that everyone KNEW why they weren't banning people.
Sure we all rage and thats fine and all, but to think that this is within the scope of bannable offense is idiotic in my opinion.
It's their game! Yes, they can ban people for whatever reason they want. You could easily fit "stream sniping" into any number of terms against the TOS.
1. Using a third party program to gain an advantage. 2. Cheating. 3. Harassment. 4. Fair Play
Hell, they could just say "we don't think you're playing with spirit in which Starcraft 2 is meant to be played so we're banning you."
The point of the statement was to say that they're not going to put stream sniping in any of those categories. I disagree with them because I believe it defies the logic that we were given when the game first released. I don't expect my opinion to matter so I'm not going to sit in this thread for too long. I'm just putting forward the position that:
1. It is, in fact, Blizzard's job to police things like this. 2. Their statement is both contrary to what they have told us before and rather uninformative as we already knew they weren't banning people for stream sniping.
This is something external to the game that the streamer exposes himself to. It is NOT blizzards job to police something like this. As they said it is out of blizzards scope. The game itself is completely irrelevant.
I would argue that it is, in fact, in Blizzard's best interest to police these sorts of things (and well within their means to do so). In order for Starcraft to remain an esport players need to be able to make a living. Streaming is how they do that between tournaments. If Blizzard is truly interested in keeping "professional Starcraft 2 player" a legitimate and viable career, then they should be interested in streaming.
Blizzard has both the tools and the incentive to police streaming. The problem is that the incentives are long term. And everything that Acti-Blizz has done up and to this point has screamed "I only care about the short term."
And yes, Blizzard absolutely has the tools to enforce this. Perhaps they can't catch someone who stream snipes once (and I wouldn't expect them to be able to). But there are some high profile stream snipers that can EASILY be caught.
On January 21 2012 03:44 SCbiff wrote: I have an idea, why not make it so that I can't be matched up with people on my ignore list?
It would be too easy to just put anyone who beats you on ignore and game the system that way. Doesn't really matter if you're in lower leagues, but imagine the advantage a lower GM player who blocks all the best pros would have. If you were an EU GM trying to rank up and you had the option of never having to face Stephano, wouldn't you take it?
But you'd also not rank up as fast because, in general, the people who beat you are the people higher than you. Beating people at or near your level doesn't move you up the ladder very fast. In fact, as you can see by watch people play at the top of GM, when you are playing people around your level all the time, it's very hard to even hold your rank because each loss count way more than a win.
Okay, but what if I have terrible TvZ but am good at the other matchups, so I ignore all the good Zergs and just rank up by only playing Terrans, Protosses, and weaker Zergs? What if there's certain players who have a specific style that gives me a really hard time, but I can handle others of the same level?
My point is that if you give people the tools to potentially be abusive, they're going to abuse it.
On January 20 2012 13:50 SKTerran.117 wrote: What else did people REALLY expect them to do?
This. I find it a little annoying that people actually expect Blizzard to enforce something like that.
The argument over on the Battle.net boards is that Blizzard's TOS permits them to ban any player for any reason so they should ban Deezer just because a bunch of people want them to, well that opens a can of worms whereby popular players like Destiny can just have anyone banned that he doesn't like.
i appreciate that Blizzard at least made it clear though.
On January 21 2012 02:44 Klondikebar wrote: Does anyone remember the whole "we're not including LAN" announcement Q&A/debacle? Blizzard said they were going to use Battle.net to help protect professional players from abuse. In other words, they put the onus on themselves to police esports by their own admission. Now they've taken the stance "oh, there's nothing we can do." Well, if Blizzard can't fulfill their promise to properly police their own game, they should quit shoving the "feature" (no LAN) down our throat that they touted as the tool to do it.
They took away our LAN. It's perfectly reasonable for us to expect them to police stream sniping.
With StarCraft II now on store shelves worldwide, we're excited to see the competitive tournament scene heating up. We'd like to remind everyone that a tournament license is required for any organizer interested in operating a StarCraft II event. Check below for more information on the process; we look forward to seeing your event!
Q&A:
Q: Why does Blizzard Entertainment require a license to run a tournament? A: There are several reasons why we require a license. The licensing system allows us to help monitor and promote ongoing events, and to encourage more players to participate in community tournaments. Additionally, the licensing system allows Blizzard to verify that our games are used properly and protects our intellectual property.
Q: Are there any fees associated with acquiring a StarCraft II tournament license? A: Tournament licenses are generally free. To protect our players, we may require that organizers adhere to additional rules and regulations if the organizer charges entry fees and/or intends to pay out large cash prizes.
Q: How do I get a StarCraft II tournament license? A: Fill out the tournament form located here. ( http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/community/esports/ ) Most general tournament requests will be approved instantly. Additional review time may be required before the approval of a license request, depending on the scope of the tournament and the number of incoming requests. We appreciate your patience!
If you have additional questions, please email sc-tourneyinfo@blizzard.com. See you on Battle.net!
I know that it's not 100% relevant to streaming and non-tournament activities, but I still believe the message is there. "We're forcing everything through Battle.net. That's a good thing because it means we can stop shenanigans." By the way, in the part that I bolded...they implied that they could, in fact, verify individual games.
I dont remember anyone pointing out in the TOS that blizzard can ban anyone for whatever reason they wanted regardless if it was exterior to the game, I think this whole "blizzard owes us they need to police this" is the opinion of those that are either uninformed or just ignoring logic completely.
I dont think blizzard should have to have even made THIS statement, i was under the impression that everyone KNEW why they weren't banning people.
Sure we all rage and thats fine and all, but to think that this is within the scope of bannable offense is idiotic in my opinion.
It's their game! Yes, they can ban people for whatever reason they want. You could easily fit "stream sniping" into any number of terms against the TOS.
1. Using a third party program to gain an advantage. 2. Cheating. 3. Harassment. 4. Fair Play
Hell, they could just say "we don't think you're playing with spirit in which Starcraft 2 is meant to be played so we're banning you."
The point of the statement was to say that they're not going to put stream sniping in any of those categories. I disagree with them because I believe it defies the logic that we were given when the game first released. I don't expect my opinion to matter so I'm not going to sit in this thread for too long. I'm just putting forward the position that:
1. It is, in fact, Blizzard's job to police things like this. 2. Their statement is both contrary to what they have told us before and rather uninformative as we already knew they weren't banning people for stream sniping.
This is something external to the game that the streamer exposes himself to. It is NOT blizzards job to police something like this. As they said it is out of blizzards scope. The game itself is completely irrelevant.
I would argue that it is, in fact, in Blizzard's best interest to police these sorts of things (and well within their means to do so). In order for Starcraft to remain an esport players need to be able to make a living. Streaming is how they do that between tournaments. If Blizzard is truly interested in keeping "professional Starcraft 2 player" a legitimate and viable career, then they should be interested in streaming.
Blizzard has both the tools and the incentive to police streaming. The problem is that the incentives are long term. And everything that Acti-Blizz has done up and to this point has screamed "I only care about the short term."
And yes, Blizzard absolutely has the tools to enforce this. Perhaps they can't catch someone who stream snipes once (and I wouldn't expect them to be able to). But there are some high profile stream snipers that can EASILY be caught.
For me the whole issue is that i think it would cause a lot of problems to interfere with a risk that the streamers subjects themselves to, it would cause a shit-storm and as you said, it would be long term and i dont think blizzard would be interested in working anything out to fix the issue.
On January 20 2012 13:50 SKTerran.117 wrote: What else did people REALLY expect them to do?
This. I find it a little annoying that people actually expect Blizzard to enforce something like that.
The argument over on the Battle.net boards is that Blizzard's TOS permits them to ban any player for any reason so they should ban Deezer just because a bunch of people want them to, well that opens a can of worms whereby popular players like Destiny can just have anyone banned that he doesn't like.
i appreciate that Blizzard at least made it clear though.
I don't think they should ban people just based on accusations or public outcry, but if you can make a case with compelling evidence, they should. Players like Deezer stream snipe and cheat and publicly admit to it, and they get away with it because Blizzard refuses to ban them anyway.
I understand that it's hard to find snipers and they don't have infinite resources, but if you can provide clear proof that abuse is happening, I don't see why they can't take a look at it and ban them. There aren't THAT many people getting stream sniped, it's really only a small pool of pro players. They wouldn't need to hire an entire investigative team or anything... hell, there's probably community members that would do it for them for free.
On January 20 2012 13:50 SKTerran.117 wrote: What else did people REALLY expect them to do?
This. I find it a little annoying that people actually expect Blizzard to enforce something like that.
The argument over on the Battle.net boards is that Blizzard's TOS permits them to ban any player for any reason so they should ban Deezer just because a bunch of people want them to, well that opens a can of worms whereby popular players like Destiny can just have anyone banned that he doesn't like.
i appreciate that Blizzard at least made it clear though.
I don't think they should ban people just based on accusations or public outcry, but if you can make a case with compelling evidence, they should. Players like Deezer stream snipe and cheat and publicly admit to it, and they get away with it because Blizzard refuses to ban them anyway.
I understand that it's hard to find snipers and they don't have infinite resources, but if you can provide clear proof that abuse is happening, I don't see why they can't take a look at it and ban them. There aren't THAT many people getting stream sniped, it's really only a small pool of pro players. They wouldn't need to hire an entire investigative team or anything... hell, there's probably community members that would do it for them for free.
No, he gets away with it because as Blizzard just said he isn't in violation of any rules.
Even though it's a jerk thing to do it's totally legal as far as the Terms of Service go.
On January 21 2012 04:05 Klondikebar wrote: And yes, Blizzard absolutely has the tools to enforce this. Perhaps they can't catch someone who stream snipes once (and I wouldn't expect them to be able to). But there are some high profile stream snipers that can EASILY be caught.
Please elaborate on these "tools". I am guessing you don't have much knowledge in this area (computers or information technology) but I might be mistaken. If anyone knows of these magical "tools" please enlighten the rest of us.
Please elaborate on these "tools". I am guessing you don't have much knowledge in this area (computers or information technology) but I might be mistaken. If anyone knows of these magical "tools" please enlighten the rest of us.
Tools don't have to be software. They could have a staff member go through complaints, check match histories and case reports, and use their brain to make a judgment call.
On January 21 2012 04:17 Vindicare605 wrote:
No, he gets away with it because as Blizzard just said he isn't in violation of any rules.
Even though it's a jerk thing to do it's totally legal as far as the Terms of Service go.
He's not in violation of their rules, but they can change their rules at any time, and they can ban him even if he doesn't violate any existing rules. You could also make the case that it's harassment.
Please elaborate on these "tools". I am guessing you don't have much knowledge in this area (computers or information technology) but I might be mistaken. If anyone knows of these magical "tools" please enlighten the rest of us.
Tools don't have to be software. They could have a staff member go through complaints, check match histories and case reports, and use their brain to make a judgment call.
No, he gets away with it because as Blizzard just said he isn't in violation of any rules.
Even though it's a jerk thing to do it's totally legal as far as the Terms of Service go.
He's not in violation of their rules, but they can change their rules at any time, and they can ban him even if he doesn't violate any existing rules. You could also make the case that it's harassment.
And you can easily make the case that it ISN'T harassment.
No one is forcing Destiny to stream his matches and no one is forcing him to stream without a delay. It's totally within his power to solve his own problem without having to ban anyone, I don't think it'd be the end of the world for his viewers if they had to watch a delayed stream if they knew he was no longer going to be stream sniped because of it.
Every Korean stream that i watch has a heavy delay on it and it doesn't exactly demotivate me from watching it.
Please elaborate on these "tools". I am guessing you don't have much knowledge in this area (computers or information technology) but I might be mistaken. If anyone knows of these magical "tools" please enlighten the rest of us.
Tools don't have to be software. They could have a staff member go through complaints, check match histories and case reports, and use their brain to make a judgment call.
Do you also want these staff members to watch the replays and find signs of "blind counters" (subjective proof)? I hope you understand that there is no objective way to prove they were watching the stream as well unless you have access to "stream sniper's" computer which Blizzard does not.
You see, when people investigate "vision hacks" there are tell-tale, objective signs you can point to such as the cheater selecting a building he does not have vision of. The cheater looking at "area of fog" can't even be admitted as evidence as it proves nothing except that their view was positioned there. These subjective proofs are only leads, not real proofs and once you start letting staff/admins/etc. make "judgement calls" you are opening a huge door to abuse and corruption (imagine pros being banned because someone "thought" they were stream sniping).
There is no way to prove these accusations of "stream sniping". It is all circumstantial. When you stream, you take the risk of someone playing you and watching the stream. A parallel of this can be seen in "live" tournament's difficulty in controlling people watching the tournament in real time and passing the information to the players.
I'm not sure how people can say that stream snipers like Deezer aren't harassing people. You can make the case that syncing your queues for 5 games in a row isn't harassment, and you'd probably be right.
Spamming match requests, though, for no purpose other than to be annoying?
Insulting them constantly during games?
Deezer's harassment is well documented, and is available on every NA streamers channels.
On January 21 2012 04:05 Klondikebar wrote: And yes, Blizzard absolutely has the tools to enforce this. Perhaps they can't catch someone who stream snipes once (and I wouldn't expect them to be able to). But there are some high profile stream snipers that can EASILY be caught.
Please elaborate on these "tools". I am guessing you don't have much knowledge in this area (computers or information technology) but I might be mistaken. If anyone knows of these magical "tools" please enlighten the rest of us.
How about the mountains of VOD's where Deezer and CombatEx are blatantly stream sniping? It's not rocket science to figure out that those guys stream snipe. Basically, a little common sense would go a long way on this issue.
On January 21 2012 04:35 WolfintheSheep wrote: I'm not sure how people can say that stream snipers like Deezer aren't harassing people. You can make the case that syncing your queues for 5 games in a row isn't harassment, and you'd probably be right.
Spamming match requests, though, for no purpose other than to be annoying?
Insulting them constantly during games?
Deezer's harassment is well documented, and is available on every NA streamers channels.
Good points about multiple queuing. Maybe they could patch the match-making service so that you could only be matched up with a certain player a maximum of 3 times per day? I mean, you will still have "stream snipers/cheaters" but they won't be able to constantly "harass" the streamer.
Do you also want these staff members to watch the replays and find signs of "blind counters" (subjective proof)? I hope you understand that there is no objective way to prove they were watching the stream as well unless you have access to "stream sniper's" computer which Blizzard does not.
You see, when people investigate "vision hacks" there are tell-tale, objective signs you can point to such as the cheater selecting a building he does not have vision of. The cheater looking at "area of fog" can't even be admitted as evidence as it proves nothing except that their view was positioned there. These subjective proofs are only leads, not real proofs and once you start letting staff/admins/etc. make "judgement calls" you are opening a huge door to abuse and corruption (imagine pros being banned because someone "thought" they were stream sniping).
There is no way to prove these accusations of "stream sniping". It is all circumstantial. When you stream, you take the risk of someone playing you and watching the stream. A parallel of this can be seen in "live" tournament's difficulty in controlling people watching the tournament in real time and passing the information to the players.
What if you looked at the time that players are hitting the "find match" button, and you notice that hey, Deezer and Destiny played each other eight times in a row and Deezer consistently hit the button exactly 3 seconds (or however long the natural stream delay is) after Destiny? What if you check the chat logs and Destiny says "you're a cockface, stop sniping me" and Deezer says "you can't do anything about it lol" or something dumb like that?
I know there are "subjective" cases, but there are some cases that just plain aren't. Remember when Deezer was streaming himself sniping Destiny? Remember when Cruncher and IdrA played like 30 games in a row against each other?
On January 21 2012 04:05 Klondikebar wrote: And yes, Blizzard absolutely has the tools to enforce this. Perhaps they can't catch someone who stream snipes once (and I wouldn't expect them to be able to). But there are some high profile stream snipers that can EASILY be caught.
Please elaborate on these "tools". I am guessing you don't have much knowledge in this area (computers or information technology) but I might be mistaken. If anyone knows of these magical "tools" please enlighten the rest of us.
How about the mountains of VOD's where Deezer and CombatEx are blatantly stream sniping? It's not rocket science to figure out that those guys stream snipe. Basically, a little common sense would go a long way on this issue.
Could you please explain "blatantly stream sniping"? Are these videos on their own website where they make references to themselves stream sniping at the moment it is happening? If so, you might have the case there. But if Blizzard does punish them using this, why would future Deezers/ComatExs ever post these videos while they continue to stream snipe?
Do you also want these staff members to watch the replays and find signs of "blind counters" (subjective proof)? I hope you understand that there is no objective way to prove they were watching the stream as well unless you have access to "stream sniper's" computer which Blizzard does not.
You see, when people investigate "vision hacks" there are tell-tale, objective signs you can point to such as the cheater selecting a building he does not have vision of. The cheater looking at "area of fog" can't even be admitted as evidence as it proves nothing except that their view was positioned there. These subjective proofs are only leads, not real proofs and once you start letting staff/admins/etc. make "judgement calls" you are opening a huge door to abuse and corruption (imagine pros being banned because someone "thought" they were stream sniping).
There is no way to prove these accusations of "stream sniping". It is all circumstantial. When you stream, you take the risk of someone playing you and watching the stream. A parallel of this can be seen in "live" tournament's difficulty in controlling people watching the tournament in real time and passing the information to the players.
What if you looked at the time that players are hitting the "find match" button, and you notice that hey, Deezer and Destiny played each other eight times in a row and Deezer consistently hit the button exactly 3 seconds (or however long the natural stream delay is) after Destiny? What if you check the chat logs and Destiny says "you're a cockface, stop sniping me" and Deezer says "you can't do anything about it lol" or something dumb like that?
I know there are "subjective" cases, but there are some cases that just plain aren't. Remember when Deezer was streaming himself sniping Destiny? Remember when Cruncher and IdrA played like 30 games in a row against each other?
You make good points here but it would require extensive investigation by Blizzard to verify and document these actions before they could take legal action (even if they imposed new rules in the EULA). If they chose not to document them and plainly reserve the right to ban whoever they please, the door to abuse by Blizzard staff is opened.
Could you please explain "blatantly stream sniping"? Are these videos on their own website where they make references to themselves stream sniping at the moment it is happening? If so, you might have the case there. But if Blizzard does punish them using this, why would future Deezers/ComatExs ever post these videos while they continue to stream snipe?
Even just forcing the people who are blatantly sniping to be more subtle would be a step in the right direction. If Deezer is afraid to snipe 5 games in a row because he runs the risk of getting his account banned, that's a good thing. Sure, he might still snipe, but he'd do something different like snipe Destiny and then Tyler and then IdrA and then Jinro or whatever instead of just ruining one person's day, which I think is better.
You make good points here but it would require extensive investigation by Blizzard to verify and document these actions before they could take legal action (even if they imposed new rules in the EULA). If they chose not to, the door to abuse by Blizzard staff is opened.
I don't think it would be as intensive of an investigation as people think. There really aren't that many people getting stream sniped, it only happens to people with popular streams and that's what, 15-20 players? I can't think of more than three players who have been proven to be sniping in the whole time the game's been out, and I would be shocked if there's more than 20 people total who are in GM (or close to it) that actually snipe.
On January 21 2012 04:05 Klondikebar wrote: And yes, Blizzard absolutely has the tools to enforce this. Perhaps they can't catch someone who stream snipes once (and I wouldn't expect them to be able to). But there are some high profile stream snipers that can EASILY be caught.
Please elaborate on these "tools". I am guessing you don't have much knowledge in this area (computers or information technology) but I might be mistaken. If anyone knows of these magical "tools" please enlighten the rest of us.
How about the mountains of VOD's where Deezer and CombatEx are blatantly stream sniping? It's not rocket science to figure out that those guys stream snipe. Basically, a little common sense would go a long way on this issue.
Could you please explain "blatantly stream sniping"? Are these videos on their own website where they make references to themselves stream sniping at the moment it is happening? If so, you might have the case there. But if Blizzard does punish them using this, why would future Deezers/ComatExs ever post these videos while they continue to stream snipe?
You could use those. But how about the VOD's where the matchmaker "randomly" matches a pro against a player 4 and 5 times in a row? Like I said, I don't expect them to catch someone who just stream snipes once...and I'm not really sure I care about someone who stream snipes once. But when Deezer gets matched up against Spanishiwa 6 times in a row it should be pretty easy to say "I think Deezer is stream sniping."
As far as reporting these things, there could be a "report stream sniping" option for grand master level players. Actually, forget VOD's. You can just check the match history.
You could use those. But how about the VOD's where the matchmaker "randomly" matches a pro against a player 4 and 5 times in a row? Like I said, I don't expect them to catch someone who just stream snipes once...and I'm not really sure I care about someone who stream snipes once. But when Deezer gets matched up against Spanishiwa 6 times in a row it should be pretty easy to say "I think Deezer is stream sniping."
If neither player reports the other, why would there be a problem? I've seen players get repeat-matched too, and usually the players know each other and go "lol matchmaking is hilarious" and go on with their day.
edit: also I don't think they should check into it every time someone gets reported for sniping, but if you have like 10-20 instances of a single player getting reported for it, and there's evidence, that should raise red flags.
You could use those. But how about the VOD's where the matchmaker "randomly" matches a pro against a player 4 and 5 times in a row? Like I said, I don't expect them to catch someone who just stream snipes once...and I'm not really sure I care about someone who stream snipes once. But when Deezer gets matched up against Spanishiwa 6 times in a row it should be pretty easy to say "I think Deezer is stream sniping."
If neither player reports the other, why would there be a problem? I've seen players get repeat-matched too, and usually the players know each other and go "lol matchmaking is hilarious" and go on with their day.
edit: also I don't think they should check into it every time someone gets reported for sniping, but if you have like 10-20 instances of a single player getting reported for it, and there's evidence, that should raise red flags.
I edited in a solution. Grand Master players get a "report sniping" option. Blizzard only needs to check match history.
On January 21 2012 04:47 IcedteaSC2 wrote: Why doesn't blizzard make it so you can' t face the same guy twice or rarely 3 times in a row
In my eyes, limiting the same-player matches like this to a certain amount per day (3ish) in the match-making service is the only solution to this problem. This would help out in other problem areas as well (portrait farmers abusing bottom bronze players, match-fixing in 1v1 and FFA, etc.). The argument could be made that it could negatively impact match-making when there are low amounts of players queuing for games but I doubt this would affect it as playing the same player over and over on the ladder ruins match-making system inherently.
You could use those. But how about the VOD's where the matchmaker "randomly" matches a pro against a player 4 and 5 times in a row? Like I said, I don't expect them to catch someone who just stream snipes once...and I'm not really sure I care about someone who stream snipes once. But when Deezer gets matched up against Spanishiwa 6 times in a row it should be pretty easy to say "I think Deezer is stream sniping."
If neither player reports the other, why would there be a problem? I've seen players get repeat-matched too, and usually the players know each other and go "lol matchmaking is hilarious" and go on with their day.
edit: also I don't think they should check into it every time someone gets reported for sniping, but if you have like 10-20 instances of a single player getting reported for it, and there's evidence, that should raise red flags.
I edited in a solution. Grand Master players get a "report sniping" option. Blizzard only needs to check match history.
What does this prove? That they played games against each other in a row? Who's fault is that? It would have to be both players as they both pressed the "find match" button.
You could use those. But how about the VOD's where the matchmaker "randomly" matches a pro against a player 4 and 5 times in a row? Like I said, I don't expect them to catch someone who just stream snipes once...and I'm not really sure I care about someone who stream snipes once. But when Deezer gets matched up against Spanishiwa 6 times in a row it should be pretty easy to say "I think Deezer is stream sniping."
If neither player reports the other, why would there be a problem? I've seen players get repeat-matched too, and usually the players know each other and go "lol matchmaking is hilarious" and go on with their day.
edit: also I don't think they should check into it every time someone gets reported for sniping, but if you have like 10-20 instances of a single player getting reported for it, and there's evidence, that should raise red flags.
I edited in a solution. Grand Master players get a "report sniping" option. Blizzard only needs to check match history.
What does this prove? That they played games against each other in a row? Who's fault is that? It would have to be both players as they both pressed the "find match" button.
You obviously wouldn't get banned for being matched twice in a row. But bad stream snipers will get matched against a player 5 or 6 times in a row...honestly, did you read my post?
You could use those. But how about the VOD's where the matchmaker "randomly" matches a pro against a player 4 and 5 times in a row? Like I said, I don't expect them to catch someone who just stream snipes once...and I'm not really sure I care about someone who stream snipes once. But when Deezer gets matched up against Spanishiwa 6 times in a row it should be pretty easy to say "I think Deezer is stream sniping."
If neither player reports the other, why would there be a problem? I've seen players get repeat-matched too, and usually the players know each other and go "lol matchmaking is hilarious" and go on with their day.
edit: also I don't think they should check into it every time someone gets reported for sniping, but if you have like 10-20 instances of a single player getting reported for it, and there's evidence, that should raise red flags.
I edited in a solution. Grand Master players get a "report sniping" option. Blizzard only needs to check match history.
What does this prove? That they played games against each other in a row? Who's fault is that? It would have to be both players as they both pressed the "find match" button.
You obviously wouldn't get banned for being matched twice in a row. But bad stream snipers will get matched against a player 5 or 6 times in a row...honestly, did you read my post?
people have played 6 matches in a row against the same person just by coincidence many times before....
I once got 7 matches in a row against same player,and we both arent streamers(i think he isnt). So you cant just ban deezer coz he snipes someone or whoever else he snipes coz there would be a lot of guys who get banned(like me and that dude).
Deezer shouldnt get banned just coz he snipes,if you are streaming theres always potential someone is sniping you or watching your stream,you get money from ads in exchange of someone cheating against you and potentially making you mad.
You could use those. But how about the VOD's where the matchmaker "randomly" matches a pro against a player 4 and 5 times in a row? Like I said, I don't expect them to catch someone who just stream snipes once...and I'm not really sure I care about someone who stream snipes once. But when Deezer gets matched up against Spanishiwa 6 times in a row it should be pretty easy to say "I think Deezer is stream sniping."
If neither player reports the other, why would there be a problem? I've seen players get repeat-matched too, and usually the players know each other and go "lol matchmaking is hilarious" and go on with their day.
edit: also I don't think they should check into it every time someone gets reported for sniping, but if you have like 10-20 instances of a single player getting reported for it, and there's evidence, that should raise red flags.
I edited in a solution. Grand Master players get a "report sniping" option. Blizzard only needs to check match history.
What does this prove? That they played games against each other in a row? Who's fault is that? It would have to be both players as they both pressed the "find match" button.
You obviously wouldn't get banned for being matched twice in a row. But bad stream snipers will get matched against a player 5 or 6 times in a row...honestly, did you read my post?
people have played 6 matches in a row against the same person just by coincidence many times before....
What he said. Should one of them be banned? Maybe both?
You could use those. But how about the VOD's where the matchmaker "randomly" matches a pro against a player 4 and 5 times in a row? Like I said, I don't expect them to catch someone who just stream snipes once...and I'm not really sure I care about someone who stream snipes once. But when Deezer gets matched up against Spanishiwa 6 times in a row it should be pretty easy to say "I think Deezer is stream sniping."
If neither player reports the other, why would there be a problem? I've seen players get repeat-matched too, and usually the players know each other and go "lol matchmaking is hilarious" and go on with their day.
edit: also I don't think they should check into it every time someone gets reported for sniping, but if you have like 10-20 instances of a single player getting reported for it, and there's evidence, that should raise red flags.
I edited in a solution. Grand Master players get a "report sniping" option. Blizzard only needs to check match history.
What does this prove? That they played games against each other in a row? Who's fault is that? It would have to be both players as they both pressed the "find match" button.
You obviously wouldn't get banned for being matched twice in a row. But bad stream snipers will get matched against a player 5 or 6 times in a row...honestly, did you read my post?
people have played 6 matches in a row against the same person just by coincidence many times before....
Were they grandmaster? Would they streaming at the time? Would they have reported the other player? Are you just making that up?
I don't see why people want Blizzard to do anything about stream sniping, it isn't their job to babysit everyone. If you wanna stream your matches, then that's your problem, not Blizzards.
You could use those. But how about the VOD's where the matchmaker "randomly" matches a pro against a player 4 and 5 times in a row? Like I said, I don't expect them to catch someone who just stream snipes once...and I'm not really sure I care about someone who stream snipes once. But when Deezer gets matched up against Spanishiwa 6 times in a row it should be pretty easy to say "I think Deezer is stream sniping."
If neither player reports the other, why would there be a problem? I've seen players get repeat-matched too, and usually the players know each other and go "lol matchmaking is hilarious" and go on with their day.
edit: also I don't think they should check into it every time someone gets reported for sniping, but if you have like 10-20 instances of a single player getting reported for it, and there's evidence, that should raise red flags.
I edited in a solution. Grand Master players get a "report sniping" option. Blizzard only needs to check match history.
What does this prove? That they played games against each other in a row? Who's fault is that? It would have to be both players as they both pressed the "find match" button.
You obviously wouldn't get banned for being matched twice in a row. But bad stream snipers will get matched against a player 5 or 6 times in a row...honestly, did you read my post?
people have played 6 matches in a row against the same person just by coincidence many times before....
Were they grandmaster? Would they streaming at the time? Would they have reported the other player? Are you just making that up?
Are you saying people who aren't in GM don't deserve this 'right' you are trying to impose? You're saying that it is fine that anyone below GM can be stream sniped. I don't think segregation is the right way to go.
Also, GM players are most likely to be matched with the same person as there is a smaller pool of players in their' 'skill gap' (just like bottom bronze players).
You could use those. But how about the VOD's where the matchmaker "randomly" matches a pro against a player 4 and 5 times in a row? Like I said, I don't expect them to catch someone who just stream snipes once...and I'm not really sure I care about someone who stream snipes once. But when Deezer gets matched up against Spanishiwa 6 times in a row it should be pretty easy to say "I think Deezer is stream sniping."
If neither player reports the other, why would there be a problem? I've seen players get repeat-matched too, and usually the players know each other and go "lol matchmaking is hilarious" and go on with their day.
edit: also I don't think they should check into it every time someone gets reported for sniping, but if you have like 10-20 instances of a single player getting reported for it, and there's evidence, that should raise red flags.
I edited in a solution. Grand Master players get a "report sniping" option. Blizzard only needs to check match history.
What does this prove? That they played games against each other in a row? Who's fault is that? It would have to be both players as they both pressed the "find match" button.
You obviously wouldn't get banned for being matched twice in a row. But bad stream snipers will get matched against a player 5 or 6 times in a row...honestly, did you read my post?
people have played 6 matches in a row against the same person just by coincidence many times before....
Were they grandmaster? Would they streaming at the time? Would they have reported the other player? Are you just making that up?
It even happens in diamond dude... Your making assumptions... If your high on the ladder theres a bigger chance of it happening regardless of their streaming or not, but anyone that plays a lot has probably had this happen to them to some extent
You could use those. But how about the VOD's where the matchmaker "randomly" matches a pro against a player 4 and 5 times in a row? Like I said, I don't expect them to catch someone who just stream snipes once...and I'm not really sure I care about someone who stream snipes once. But when Deezer gets matched up against Spanishiwa 6 times in a row it should be pretty easy to say "I think Deezer is stream sniping."
If neither player reports the other, why would there be a problem? I've seen players get repeat-matched too, and usually the players know each other and go "lol matchmaking is hilarious" and go on with their day.
edit: also I don't think they should check into it every time someone gets reported for sniping, but if you have like 10-20 instances of a single player getting reported for it, and there's evidence, that should raise red flags.
I edited in a solution. Grand Master players get a "report sniping" option. Blizzard only needs to check match history.
What does this prove? That they played games against each other in a row? Who's fault is that? It would have to be both players as they both pressed the "find match" button.
You obviously wouldn't get banned for being matched twice in a row. But bad stream snipers will get matched against a player 5 or 6 times in a row...honestly, did you read my post?
people have played 6 matches in a row against the same person just by coincidence many times before....
Were they grandmaster? Would they streaming at the time? Would they have reported the other player? Are you just making that up?
Are you saying people who aren't in GM don't deserve this 'right' you are trying to impose? You're saying that it is fine that anyone below GM can be stream sniped. I don't think segregation is the right way to go.
Also, GM players are most likely to be matched with the same person as there is a smaller pool of players in their' 'skill gap' (just like bottom bronze players).
That's exactly what I'm saying. What non-grandmaster player derives a significant amount of income from streaming? The whole point of the policy is to make "professional gamer" a viable career between tournaments. If you're not a professional gamer, the policy isn't designed for you.
And I'm also quite certain that professional players are intelligent and mature enough to only report when they truly believe it''s stream sniping. They have to click that report button before we even start talking about Blizzard.
You could use those. But how about the VOD's where the matchmaker "randomly" matches a pro against a player 4 and 5 times in a row? Like I said, I don't expect them to catch someone who just stream snipes once...and I'm not really sure I care about someone who stream snipes once. But when Deezer gets matched up against Spanishiwa 6 times in a row it should be pretty easy to say "I think Deezer is stream sniping."
If neither player reports the other, why would there be a problem? I've seen players get repeat-matched too, and usually the players know each other and go "lol matchmaking is hilarious" and go on with their day.
edit: also I don't think they should check into it every time someone gets reported for sniping, but if you have like 10-20 instances of a single player getting reported for it, and there's evidence, that should raise red flags.
I edited in a solution. Grand Master players get a "report sniping" option. Blizzard only needs to check match history.
What does this prove? That they played games against each other in a row? Who's fault is that? It would have to be both players as they both pressed the "find match" button.
You obviously wouldn't get banned for being matched twice in a row. But bad stream snipers will get matched against a player 5 or 6 times in a row...honestly, did you read my post?
people have played 6 matches in a row against the same person just by coincidence many times before....
Were they grandmaster? Would they streaming at the time? Would they have reported the other player? Are you just making that up?
Are you saying people who aren't in GM don't deserve this 'right' you are trying to impose? You're saying that it is fine that anyone below GM can be stream sniped. I don't think segregation is the right way to go.
Also, GM players are most likely to be matched with the same person as there is a smaller pool of players in their' 'skill gap' (just like bottom bronze players).
That's exactly what I'm saying. What non-grandmaster player derives a significant amount of income from streaming? The whole point of the policy is to make "professional gamer" a viable career between tournaments. If you're not a professional gamer, the policy isn't designed for you.
And I'm also quite certain that professional players are intelligent and mature enough to only report when they truly believe it''s stream sniping. They have to click that report button before we even start talking about Blizzard.
You're criteria for "professional" is ladder rank? I'm sorry but I'm going to stop discussing this tangent you introduced as it is becoming more non-sequitur as you continue.
You could use those. But how about the VOD's where the matchmaker "randomly" matches a pro against a player 4 and 5 times in a row? Like I said, I don't expect them to catch someone who just stream snipes once...and I'm not really sure I care about someone who stream snipes once. But when Deezer gets matched up against Spanishiwa 6 times in a row it should be pretty easy to say "I think Deezer is stream sniping."
If neither player reports the other, why would there be a problem? I've seen players get repeat-matched too, and usually the players know each other and go "lol matchmaking is hilarious" and go on with their day.
edit: also I don't think they should check into it every time someone gets reported for sniping, but if you have like 10-20 instances of a single player getting reported for it, and there's evidence, that should raise red flags.
I edited in a solution. Grand Master players get a "report sniping" option. Blizzard only needs to check match history.
What does this prove? That they played games against each other in a row? Who's fault is that? It would have to be both players as they both pressed the "find match" button.
You obviously wouldn't get banned for being matched twice in a row. But bad stream snipers will get matched against a player 5 or 6 times in a row...honestly, did you read my post?
people have played 6 matches in a row against the same person just by coincidence many times before....
Were they grandmaster? Would they streaming at the time? Would they have reported the other player? Are you just making that up?
Are you saying people who aren't in GM don't deserve this 'right' you are trying to impose? You're saying that it is fine that anyone below GM can be stream sniped. I don't think segregation is the right way to go.
Also, GM players are most likely to be matched with the same person as there is a smaller pool of players in their' 'skill gap' (just like bottom bronze players).
That's exactly what I'm saying. What non-grandmaster player derives a significant amount of income from streaming? The whole point of the policy is to make "professional gamer" a viable career between tournaments. If you're not a professional gamer, the policy isn't designed for you.
And I'm also quite certain that professional players are intelligent and mature enough to only report when they truly believe it''s stream sniping. They have to click that report button before we even start talking about Blizzard.
Everyone can call themselves a pro,you can be bronze league streamer and call yourself a pro.
what worries me though is that stream sniping does not necessarily include stream cheating... perhaps that moderator is just uninformed aka not the best representative of blizzard's opinion?
anyway I can understand their reasoning. I wish something could be done though Hm well you could still stream + play custom practice games.
You could use those. But how about the VOD's where the matchmaker "randomly" matches a pro against a player 4 and 5 times in a row? Like I said, I don't expect them to catch someone who just stream snipes once...and I'm not really sure I care about someone who stream snipes once. But when Deezer gets matched up against Spanishiwa 6 times in a row it should be pretty easy to say "I think Deezer is stream sniping."
If neither player reports the other, why would there be a problem? I've seen players get repeat-matched too, and usually the players know each other and go "lol matchmaking is hilarious" and go on with their day.
edit: also I don't think they should check into it every time someone gets reported for sniping, but if you have like 10-20 instances of a single player getting reported for it, and there's evidence, that should raise red flags.
I edited in a solution. Grand Master players get a "report sniping" option. Blizzard only needs to check match history.
What does this prove? That they played games against each other in a row? Who's fault is that? It would have to be both players as they both pressed the "find match" button.
You obviously wouldn't get banned for being matched twice in a row. But bad stream snipers will get matched against a player 5 or 6 times in a row...honestly, did you read my post?
people have played 6 matches in a row against the same person just by coincidence many times before....
Were they grandmaster? Would they streaming at the time? Would they have reported the other player? Are you just making that up?
Are you saying people who aren't in GM don't deserve this 'right' you are trying to impose? You're saying that it is fine that anyone below GM can be stream sniped. I don't think segregation is the right way to go.
Also, GM players are most likely to be matched with the same person as there is a smaller pool of players in their' 'skill gap' (just like bottom bronze players).
That's exactly what I'm saying. What non-grandmaster player derives a significant amount of income from streaming? The whole point of the policy is to make "professional gamer" a viable career between tournaments. If you're not a professional gamer, the policy isn't designed for you.
And I'm also quite certain that professional players are intelligent and mature enough to only report when they truly believe it''s stream sniping. They have to click that report button before we even start talking about Blizzard.
Blizzard isnt going to enforce banning people for exploiting a risk thats completely exterior to SC2 that the streamer exposes himself to, thats just how things are and how they should probably be expected to be.
WTF. Firefox is a third party program you are using to gain an advantage over your opponent. This is bullcrap, it COMPLETELY breaks the ToS or ToCc W/e the fuck.
I personally really enjoy the multi-que. I'd say 2 games happens nearly weekly and 3 games are rarer, but it's fun to face the same opponent multiple times on the ladder. A cap of 3 games max per day or even per 8 hours would be very reasonable though to help prevent the massive stream sniping by people like deezer and combatex.
On January 21 2012 05:19 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote: I personally really enjoy the multi-que. I'd say 2 games happens nearly weekly and 3 games are rarer, but it's fun to face the same opponent multiple times on the ladder. A cap of 3 games max per day or even per 8 hours would be very reasonable though to help prevent the massive stream sniping by people like deezer and combatex.
CombatEX doesn't really stream snipe anymore, its mostly Deezer and he has died down quite a bit for some reason.
This whole thing isn't that big a deal, once I think about it.
On January 21 2012 05:19 Lebzetu wrote: WTF. Firefox is a third party program you are using to gain an advantage over your opponent. This is bullcrap, it COMPLETELY breaks the ToS or ToCc W/e the fuck.
But is doesnt interfere with sc2. Streaming software doesn't either, its capturing your screen. What your using to gain an advantage to gain control over your opponent is a stream of their desktop that they CHOOSE to show. Even if they were to consider this as a third party program to cheat, its the fact they the streamer exposes him self in this manner which as they said is outside of their scope. It would be like this with any large gaming company in a similar situation.
id also like to point out i do actually think it is retarded how much shit some of these people get away with in terms of offenses that are indeed within their "scope".
Blizzard can barely even keep up with regular hackers. I doubt that they will ever be arsed into taking care of stream snipers/cheaters. Besides, didn't we already know Blizzard's position on this? It's been out there for a while.
Completely reasonable response by Blizzard. If anything, a stream provider (twitch, own3d) should be the one to take action, since offering an accessible + reliable way to time delay by 5 minutes would make them the top choice of laddering streamers.
I expect this to happen in the not too distant future
On January 21 2012 05:22 dANiELcanuck wrote: So Blizz doesn't want to enforce any widespread rules about stream sniping/cheating. The least they could do is ban people like Deezer.
I think it's not that they don't want to, but first of all people like Deezer are not breaking ToS or is doing anything illegal. Streamers are willingly providing a stream of their actions in the game. Is it deplorable? Yes. Does it break any rules? No. And as blizzard have said, it will be extremely hard to enforce if they tried to somehow come up with the system that enforces it that knows FOR SURE the other player is stream sniping (maybe they've just got awesome starsense)
A++ response by blizzard. Couldn't agree more. They should not be intervening in this. It's not their responsibility to moderate this, nor is it their place.
On January 21 2012 05:27 Reason.SC2 wrote: Completely reasonable response by Blizzard. If anything, a stream provider (twitch, own3d) should be the one to take action, since offering an accessible + reliable way to time delay by 5 minutes would make them the top choice of laddering streamers.
I expect this to happen in the not too distant future
to be honest i don't even know why people are arguing in this thread about stream sniping, you can delay in twitch.tv if you have partner (afaik you have to request it currently but it will be a feature soon) and it's already a part of own3d.
don't want to get sniped? delay stream. that simple.
On January 20 2012 13:56 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote: The problem I have with this is in cases when combatEZ and deezer prevent a progamer from practicing because they stream snipe them so much (others players do it too but none nearly so well-known). They're trying to make a living, especially in the case of destiny, where viewer numbers matter(ed?) while the sniper is trying to be a nuisance. There's a huge difference.
Actually, I really dislike this decision by blizzard There is no difference between stream sniping and maphacking. It's not the streamer's fault that hes streaming, its the maphackers/snipers fault for looking at the stream. They can choose whether or not to do so, and only affect themselves. If the streamer decides to delay or shut off the stream, then he loses hundreds or thousands of viewers.
Demuslim handles this very well, he just makes fun of the sniper and mercilessly beats him game after game while giving him tips. When he was losing games, he put the camera on his face and every few minutes would talk about how hes facing combatEZ and trashing him, and he made us have a good time regardless.
dude, ladder is NOT practicing for pro's. they do this on the side in private games. streaming ladder games is just purely for making money and building a fan base. like blizzard said, if you expose yourself steeaming live, then take the consequences of it.
What people expect them to do?. They can't do anything it's the player decision to make their game public for a few coins, then deal with it and shut up, it's your problem.
On January 21 2012 05:17 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: it's good to see a response though
what worries me though is that stream sniping does not necessarily include stream cheating... perhaps that moderator is just uninformed aka not the best representative of blizzard's opinion?
anyway I can understand their reasoning. I wish something could be done though Hm well you could still stream + play custom practice games.
or maybe blizzard as a whole is totally uninformed
People are upset that Blizzard doesn't enforce rules on streaming? What do you expect them to do? They do not control the streaming programs people use. Go jab some pitchforks into something that isn't this stupid.
My first thought after reading this was duh, then I wondered why they only mentioned stream sniping.
As far as I knew though neither sniping nor cheating are in blizzard's realm of jurisdiction, better to just put a delay on your stream, if that's possible, if you don't there is no other way to deal with it besides not streaming.
You could use those. But how about the VOD's where the matchmaker "randomly" matches a pro against a player 4 and 5 times in a row? Like I said, I don't expect them to catch someone who just stream snipes once...and I'm not really sure I care about someone who stream snipes once. But when Deezer gets matched up against Spanishiwa 6 times in a row it should be pretty easy to say "I think Deezer is stream sniping."
If neither player reports the other, why would there be a problem? I've seen players get repeat-matched too, and usually the players know each other and go "lol matchmaking is hilarious" and go on with their day.
edit: also I don't think they should check into it every time someone gets reported for sniping, but if you have like 10-20 instances of a single player getting reported for it, and there's evidence, that should raise red flags.
I edited in a solution. Grand Master players get a "report sniping" option. Blizzard only needs to check match history.
What does this prove? That they played games against each other in a row? Who's fault is that? It would have to be both players as they both pressed the "find match" button.
You obviously wouldn't get banned for being matched twice in a row. But bad stream snipers will get matched against a player 5 or 6 times in a row...honestly, did you read my post?
people have played 6 matches in a row against the same person just by coincidence many times before....
Were they grandmaster? Would they streaming at the time? Would they have reported the other player? Are you just making that up?
Are you saying people who aren't in GM don't deserve this 'right' you are trying to impose? You're saying that it is fine that anyone below GM can be stream sniped. I don't think segregation is the right way to go.
Also, GM players are most likely to be matched with the same person as there is a smaller pool of players in their' 'skill gap' (just like bottom bronze players).
That's exactly what I'm saying. What non-grandmaster player derives a significant amount of income from streaming? The whole point of the policy is to make "professional gamer" a viable career between tournaments. If you're not a professional gamer, the policy isn't designed for you.
And I'm also quite certain that professional players are intelligent and mature enough to only report when they truly believe it''s stream sniping. They have to click that report button before we even start talking about Blizzard.
You're criteria for "professional" is ladder rank? I'm sorry but I'm going to stop discussing this tangent you introduced as it is becoming more non-sequitur as you continue.
im pretty sure that sniping isnt against the rules. and there is no reason it should be. as blizzard say, if you want to give someone else the opportunity to cheat vs you then its entirely your fault when it happens.
On January 21 2012 06:43 Detwiler wrote: Its not blizzards job to regulate streams. On the other hand a ignore function would fix everything...
if you could set players to ignore and then not have to play them it would be retarded, especially at GM level, where there is a very small pool of players you are likely to play vs. you could just ignore the people better than you, and then never lose a game.
Their argument is fine, there's nothing they can do really. If people have that big of a problem with it then they're just going to have to stop streaming. I don't even understand how some people can try to hold Blizzard responsible for it.
It's not Blizzard's job to police the rampant teenage drama that infests the community. To quote Mani on the Selendiis thread, "Do you guys even have time to play the game?"
If you choose to stream, that's not Blizzard's problem. There's really nothing they can do that won't open a can of worms. The business reason for them to do anything is pretty much nil. There's no valid reason to hold Blizzard responsible for it.
As it has been said before, having 2 players not being able to play 2 consecutive games against each other is so stupidly simple. They don't even try...
On January 20 2012 13:56 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote: The problem I have with this is in cases when combatEZ and deezer prevent a progamer from practicing because they stream snipe them so much (others players do it too but none nearly so well-known). They're trying to make a living, especially in the case of destiny, where viewer numbers matter(ed?) while the sniper is trying to be a nuisance. There's a huge difference.
Actually, I really dislike this decision by blizzard There is no difference between stream sniping and maphacking. It's not the streamer's fault that hes streaming, its the maphackers/snipers fault for looking at the stream. They can choose whether or not to do so, and only affect themselves. If the streamer decides to delay or shut off the stream, then he loses hundreds or thousands of viewers.
Demuslim handles this very well, he just makes fun of the sniper and mercilessly beats him game after game while giving him tips. When he was losing games, he put the camera on his face and every few minutes would talk about how hes facing combatEZ and trashing him, and he made us have a good time regardless.
dude, ladder is NOT practicing for pro's. they do this on the side in private games. streaming ladder games is just purely for making money and building a fan base. like blizzard said, if you expose yourself steeaming live, then take the consequences of it.
No, every game they play is practice. They just aren't going to be as likely to give away key builds etc. or work on specific things on streams.
On January 21 2012 06:52 Grobyc wrote: Their argument is fine, there's nothing they can do really. If people have that big of a problem with it then they're just going to have to stop streaming. I don't even understand how some people can try to hold Blizzard responsible for it.
Everything that is 'wrong' with SC2 is Blizzard's fault. I'm surprised that no one is blaming the current TSL/Coach Lee fiasco on Blizzard as well
Actually it's not Blizzard's business to take care of stream cheating. It's not their problem at all. It's players/streamers problem and they must take care of it by themselves.
The simple fact is, if you're streaming, you're opening yourself up to having someone SNIPE or CHEAT you, because YOU are choosing to put yourself out there.
I love streamers, and I feel for them, but blaming blizzard for not enforcing this is silly. I hope there can be a solution to this, but it's not going to be within Blizzards jurisdiction to fix this, they can't control who/when people stream, or how they do it, they do it of their own recourse, not something blizz enforces. They let streamers do it, and make money off of it, something they don't necessarily HAVE to do, but they don't interfere in the good, means they don't interfere in the bad either. They just can't. And there's no hard evidence of proving it without using hearsay and 3rd party products.
Blizzard cant do anything about streamsniping obviously their arguments is just very professional and neutral |+1 blizz who does that anyway? just play on EU server i never saw deezer or combatex there and noone streamsnipes into EU gm afaik
I don't know exactly how easy it is to stream snipe at the highest level (say top 200), but can't a player just set the stream to play 2-3 commercials and search at some random point when the commericials are playing? Or is this not enough time?
On January 21 2012 08:19 Camdeon wrote: I don't know exactly how easy it is to stream snipe at the highest level (say top 200), but can't a player just set the stream to play 2-3 commercials and search at some random point when the commericials are playing? Or is this not enough time?
i think people just start crying if they dont see the whole game. also, the higher you get in mmr, the wider the window to snipe i think, as there are less people you will be matched with.
You could use those. But how about the VOD's where the matchmaker "randomly" matches a pro against a player 4 and 5 times in a row? Like I said, I don't expect them to catch someone who just stream snipes once...and I'm not really sure I care about someone who stream snipes once. But when Deezer gets matched up against Spanishiwa 6 times in a row it should be pretty easy to say "I think Deezer is stream sniping."
If neither player reports the other, why would there be a problem? I've seen players get repeat-matched too, and usually the players know each other and go "lol matchmaking is hilarious" and go on with their day.
edit: also I don't think they should check into it every time someone gets reported for sniping, but if you have like 10-20 instances of a single player getting reported for it, and there's evidence, that should raise red flags.
I edited in a solution. Grand Master players get a "report sniping" option. Blizzard only needs to check match history.
What does this prove? That they played games against each other in a row? Who's fault is that? It would have to be both players as they both pressed the "find match" button.
You obviously wouldn't get banned for being matched twice in a row. But bad stream snipers will get matched against a player 5 or 6 times in a row...honestly, did you read my post?
people have played 6 matches in a row against the same person just by coincidence many times before....
Were they grandmaster? Would they streaming at the time? Would they have reported the other player? Are you just making that up?
Are you saying people who aren't in GM don't deserve this 'right' you are trying to impose? You're saying that it is fine that anyone below GM can be stream sniped. I don't think segregation is the right way to go.
Also, GM players are most likely to be matched with the same person as there is a smaller pool of players in their' 'skill gap' (just like bottom bronze players).
That's exactly what I'm saying. What non-grandmaster player derives a significant amount of income from streaming? The whole point of the policy is to make "professional gamer" a viable career between tournaments. If you're not a professional gamer, the policy isn't designed for you.
And I'm also quite certain that professional players are intelligent and mature enough to only report when they truly believe it''s stream sniping. They have to click that report button before we even start talking about Blizzard.
teh idea that a professional gamer has to be good is retarded. the only requirement to being professional at anything is making a non zero amount of money from it. so the idea of basing it on skill only is stupid. there are plenty of non GM players who make money from SC2, and in most cases, their stream is part of that. im pretty sure psy isnt GM, but i think he probably counts as a pro gamer.
How can Blizzard possibly be so obtuse? Do they not understand that user streams are beneficial to Blizzard as well as the streamers? The possibility of stream sniping without ramifications is obviously going to drive players away from streaming. Could you imagine a world without streams? The volume of SC2 content on the web would drop so alarmingly. Honestly, how do we as SC2 enthusiasts get our SC2 content?
1) Big Tourneys Stuff like MLG, IEM, HSC, etc. These only come around once every few months and generally take 3-5 days, some of the smaller ones being monthly at best. GSL of course has a slightly different format, but the premise is close enough to clump together with the others. These are nice, but obviously most people are only going to watch through the VOD's once before they're stale. (That's just how this game works.) Too few and far between. Not to mention that watching players in big tourneys is much different than watching them ladder, for many reasons.
2) Showmatch/Weekly Event These, like the big tourneys, are generally sponsored heavily. Stuff that IPL puts out, Korean Weekly, occasional Twitch.tv stuff, etc. The fine production value and quality, high level gameplay, and pro casting feeds us interesting material. A little less sporadic, but the difference in strats and distinction between competitive vs ladder play is still there.
3) Third-Party Content Day[9] comes to mind, among others. Stuff that isn't really commercial or professionally produced all count. These are adequate and quite varied sources of content that one could probably find fresh every day or two.
But none of these compare in volume or audience benefit to:
4) Streamers Every minute of every day, from somewhere in the world there are at least a dozen pros streaming on one of a dozen host sites. This is the Bread and Butter to the average SC2 goer. Some of us have it on 24/7. It's where we go to learn, it's where we go for entertainment, and it's where we go to kill time with something we love. It's the largest source of content in terms of volume, and that by an incredibly huge margin. If something like stream sniping disrupts this content, not volumetrically but in terms of pissing off the streamer or ruining matches, etc, that's something Blizzard should have a problem with.
That huge rant aside, I also question Blizzards knowledge of what "stream sniping" actually is. There's no problem with attempting to play against a pro on the ladder by timing queues correctly. The problem lies in watching the stream to gain an unfair advantage and insight into the player's moves, strategies, and other information specific to that game. There's no reason that Blizzard should be ok with that, let alone discouraging players to stream as a solution.
I can swear I've heard people lots of times talking about how blizzard should act against this, but now that it strikes me noone has ever came up with an idea what they should actually do.
On January 21 2012 09:28 SkimGuy wrote: Totally agree with Blizzard
If you give someone an open book to your strategies, of course they're going to read it. It's unethical but it's not illegal.
The problem is that these top streamers are helping blizzard in the long run by advertising their game to new players who stumble upon a stream, and want to play. In return, you would think blizzard could take the time to implement a small feature that prevents a player from being matched up more than twice in a row. This alone would drastically reduce stream cheating.
Personally I wouldnt implement a system where you could blacklist a certain amount of players, as that would lead to top players on the ladder (top koreans / foreigners) being blocked by alot of players who dont want to throw away ladder points. However, limiting the amount of times a player can be matched together would certainly be a good idea.
I like Blizzard's policy on all things concerning SC2: Keep. It. Simple.
If you're going to be streaming, sorry we can't stop people from going to your stream, that's your choice to make your games public. And are we supposed to enforce some sort of anti sniping policy towards players who simple beat you while you are streaming? Is it okay when the other player doesn't make it obvious?
You can't bend the rules in some circumstances and strictly enforce it in others. Let's focus on the BMing stream snipers do rather than the act of using information streamers provide to everyone.
Its not the cheating that bothers me, it is the harassment. Take dezzer for example, he will que against a pro over and over again and it is annoying to the people watching and the pro that is streaming. I just wish blizz would fix that so you cant play the same player over and over.
On January 21 2012 09:28 SkimGuy wrote: Totally agree with Blizzard
If you give someone an open book to your strategies, of course they're going to read it. It's unethical but it's not illegal.
The problem is that these top streamers are helping blizzard in the long run by advertising their game to new players who stumble upon a stream, and want to play. In return, you would think blizzard could take the time to implement a small feature that prevents a player from being matched up more than twice in a row. This alone would drastically reduce stream cheating.
Personally I wouldnt implement a system where you could blacklist a certain amount of players, as that would lead to top players on the ladder (top koreans / foreigners) being blocked by alot of players who dont want to throw away ladder points. However, limiting the amount of times a player can be matched together would certainly be a good idea.
Changing the entire match making system for the needs of very, very few players is a little silly no?
Let's be honest here: Streams are going to continue regardless of stream snipers. And their viewership is not going to get smaller because of them (I've seen streams actually jump viewership from having some assholes making a clown out of themselves).
That's exactly what I'm saying. What non-grandmaster player derives a significant amount of income from streaming?
hi
Blizzard are so incredibly out of touch. Obviously, we can't have them regulating streams and looking out for ghosting, that's absurd. Ghosting is incredibly hard to prove and even then the evidence is highly circumstantial. They also don't seem to understand the difference between sniping and ghosting, never mentioning the term ghosting and titling their post sniping, while referring to what is in fact, ghosting. It disturbs me greatly that they don't have at least one person on staff who actually knows what the fuck he's talking about in terms of the streaming scene, a medium which has contributed significantly to their sales figures.
Sniping is fixable via changes to the matchmaking system. That's all anyone's asking for. The entire Blizzard post is a giant strawman argument which inadvertently (or not, having played WoW for 6 years and watched the obvious social engineering that went on in that game, with Blizzard deliberately misrepresenting issues in order to cause conflict and hostility between different kinds of players and destabilise any kind of unified response from the playerbase) sets the casual players against streamers by portraying them as whining, unreasonable money-grubbers. Nobody is asking for Blizzard to monitor streams for ghosting, the very notion is outlandish, sadly it seems that Bashiok's usual FUD isn't merely confined to one game :\
On January 21 2012 09:12 TheTurk wrote: How can Blizzard possibly be so obtuse? Do they not understand that user streams are beneficial to Blizzard as well as the streamers? The possibility of stream sniping without ramifications is obviously going to drive players away from streaming. Could you imagine a world without streams? The volume of SC2 content on the web would drop so alarmingly. Honestly, how do we as SC2 enthusiasts get our SC2 content?
1) Big Tourneys Stuff like MLG, IEM, HSC, etc. These only come around once every few months and generally take 3-5 days, some of the smaller ones being monthly at best. GSL of course has a slightly different format, but the premise is close enough to clump together with the others. These are nice, but obviously most people are only going to watch through the VOD's once before they're stale. (That's just how this game works.) Too few and far between. Not to mention that watching players in big tourneys is much different than watching them ladder, for many reasons.
2) Showmatch/Weekly Event These, like the big tourneys, are generally sponsored heavily. Stuff that IPL puts out, Korean Weekly, occasional Twitch.tv stuff, etc. The fine production value and quality, high level gameplay, and pro casting feeds us interesting material. A little less sporadic, but the difference in strats and distinction between competitive vs ladder play is still there.
3) Third-Party Content Day[9] comes to mind, among others. Stuff that isn't really commercial or professionally produced all count. These are adequate and quite varied sources of content that one could probably find fresh every day or two.
But none of these compare in volume or audience benefit to:
4) Streamers Every minute of every day, from somewhere in the world there are at least a dozen pros streaming on one of a dozen host sites. This is the Bread and Butter to the average SC2 goer. Some of us have it on 24/7. It's where we go to learn, it's where we go for entertainment, and it's where we go to kill time with something we love. It's the largest source of content in terms of volume, and that by an incredibly huge margin. If something like stream sniping disrupts this content, not volumetrically but in terms of pissing off the streamer or ruining matches, etc, that's something Blizzard should have a problem with.
That huge rant aside, I also question Blizzards knowledge of what "stream sniping" actually is. There's no problem with attempting to play against a pro on the ladder by timing queues correctly. The problem lies in watching the stream to gain an unfair advantage and insight into the player's moves, strategies, and other information specific to that game. There's no reason that Blizzard should be ok with that, let alone discouraging players to stream as a solution.
are you a moron? stream sniping stops almost no streams, and the good players just roll straight over deezer and combatEX even when they are cheating. all it does is teach mediocre but famous streamers how to play vs strong cheese. and blizzard banning people because they are annoying is just retarded, im pretty sure there would be like 5 players on battlenet. dragon and cella have pissed off loads of people in game with silly strats, but no one clamours for them to be banned, even though using someone elses account to play in lower leagues is clearly in breach of the EULA. blizzard aren't discouraging players from streaming, all they are saying is that if you give your opponent an opportunity to gain an advantage, dont be surprised if they take it. if you cant understand their veiwpoint, and why they cant do shit to stop it, then its not even worth my time to post this, but whatever, its written now.
On January 21 2012 09:12 TheTurk wrote: How can Blizzard possibly be so obtuse? Do they not understand that user streams are beneficial to Blizzard as well as the streamers? The possibility of stream sniping without ramifications is obviously going to drive players away from streaming. Could you imagine a world without streams? The volume of SC2 content on the web would drop so alarmingly. Honestly, how do we as SC2 enthusiasts get our SC2 content?
1) Big Tourneys Stuff like MLG, IEM, HSC, etc. These only come around once every few months and generally take 3-5 days, some of the smaller ones being monthly at best. GSL of course has a slightly different format, but the premise is close enough to clump together with the others. These are nice, but obviously most people are only going to watch through the VOD's once before they're stale. (That's just how this game works.) Too few and far between. Not to mention that watching players in big tourneys is much different than watching them ladder, for many reasons.
2) Showmatch/Weekly Event These, like the big tourneys, are generally sponsored heavily. Stuff that IPL puts out, Korean Weekly, occasional Twitch.tv stuff, etc. The fine production value and quality, high level gameplay, and pro casting feeds us interesting material. A little less sporadic, but the difference in strats and distinction between competitive vs ladder play is still there.
3) Third-Party Content Day[9] comes to mind, among others. Stuff that isn't really commercial or professionally produced all count. These are adequate and quite varied sources of content that one could probably find fresh every day or two.
But none of these compare in volume or audience benefit to:
4) Streamers Every minute of every day, from somewhere in the world there are at least a dozen pros streaming on one of a dozen host sites. This is the Bread and Butter to the average SC2 goer. Some of us have it on 24/7. It's where we go to learn, it's where we go for entertainment, and it's where we go to kill time with something we love. It's the largest source of content in terms of volume, and that by an incredibly huge margin. If something like stream sniping disrupts this content, not volumetrically but in terms of pissing off the streamer or ruining matches, etc, that's something Blizzard should have a problem with.
That huge rant aside, I also question Blizzards knowledge of what "stream sniping" actually is. There's no problem with attempting to play against a pro on the ladder by timing queues correctly. The problem lies in watching the stream to gain an unfair advantage and insight into the player's moves, strategies, and other information specific to that game. There's no reason that Blizzard should be ok with that, let alone discouraging players to stream as a solution.
are you a moron? stream sniping stops almost no streams, and the good players just roll straight over deezer and combatEX even when they are cheating. all it does is teach mediocre but famous streamers how to play vs strong cheese. and blizzard banning people because they are annoying is just retarded, im pretty sure there would be like 5 players on battlenet. dragon and cella have pissed off loads of people in game with silly strats, but no one clamours for them to be banned, even though using someone elses account to play in lower leagues is clearly in breach of the EULA. blizzard aren't discouraging players from streaming, all they are saying is that if you give your opponent an opportunity to gain an advantage, dont be surprised if they take it. if you cant understand their veiwpoint, and why they cant do shit to stop it, then its not even worth my time to post this, but whatever, its written now.
... Why are you even comparing CombatEX and Deezer to Cella and Dragon
That's exactly what I'm saying. What non-grandmaster player derives a significant amount of income from streaming?
hi
Blizzard are so incredibly out of touch. Obviously, we can't have them regulating streams and looking out for ghosting, that's absurd. Ghosting is incredibly hard to prove and even then the evidence is highly circumstantial. They also don't seem to understand the difference between sniping and ghosting, never mentioning the term ghosting and titling their post sniping, while referring to what is in fact, ghosting. It disturbs me greatly that they don't have at least one person on staff who actually knows what the fuck he's talking about in terms of the streaming scene, a medium which has contributed significantly to their sales figures.
Sniping is fixable via changes to the matchmaking system. That's all anyone's asking for. The entire Blizzard post is a giant strawman argument which inadvertently (or not, having played WoW for 6 years and watched the obvious social engineering that went on in that game, with Blizzard deliberately misrepresenting issues in order to cause conflict and hostility between different kinds of players and destabilise any kind of unified response from the playerbase) sets the casual players against streamers by portraying them as whining, unreasonable money-grubbers. Nobody is asking for Blizzard to monitor streams for ghosting, the very notion is outlandish, sadly it seems that Bashiok's usual FUD isn't merely confined to one game :\
hi
Your post is incredibly out of touch. Your argument of changing the has been destroyed so many times already in the thread. You want to stream on the INTERNET? Deal with the consequences. You cannot have your cake and eat it too
Your post is incredibly out of touch. Your argument of changing the has been destroyed so many times already in the thread. You want to stream on the INTERNET? Deal with the consequences. You cannot have your cake and eat it too
Hi, no it hasn't and no it isn't, but thanks for your opinion, even though you didn't bother to qualify a damn thing about it and yet somehow still think it matters.
On January 21 2012 09:32 KaiserJohan wrote: I can swear I've heard people lots of times talking about how blizzard should act against this, but now that it strikes me noone has ever came up with an idea what they should actually do.
Im 100% behind blizz on this.
This. How are people proposing Blizzard fixes stream sniping? Limit the amount of times you can play a player in a row? That doesn't fix the problem at all but instead makes it happen less often. However, it will still happen.
On January 20 2012 13:50 memcpy wrote: I agree with their argument that they can't do anything because they have no current policies against stream cheating. What they could do however is add stream sniping to their policies and ban people who have been reported on multiple accounts since it's easily verifiable by looking at their match history. Doesn't seem like any more of difficult than looking into harassment cases.
You want to ban people for entering the queue at the right time to hit a specific player? Brilliant idea.
Maybe you could down vote players like you can on maps? This would have the unfortunate consequence of dodging certain people for ladder points I suppose. But the automatchmaking has created its own set of problems. In BW, if you didn't want to play a guy, you could avoid joining his game. And you could ban people from joining your game as well.
But automatchmaking you don't really have a choice, especially when combined with the lame Custom Maps UI which has killed custom maps. The problem is it only effect a select group of people- famous people, but effects everyone that wants to watch entertaining games, but the viewing experience is wrecked by a couple trolls.
Sure players don't have to stream, but it can be a source of revenue and it's for the benefit of the community to see our favourite players play. I don't know about you, but I have a quota of how much Combat and Deezer I want to see and it gets filled pretty quickly.
But maybe down vote or maybe if once playing a certain player x amount of times would cross a threshold where you could ban them? I don't know. It's a limited problem, but a frustrating one- of course if Combat and Deezer get bored of it all, I guess then it's problem solved.
Your post is incredibly out of touch. Your argument of changing the has been destroyed so many times already in the thread. You want to stream on the INTERNET? Deal with the consequences. You cannot have your cake and eat it too
Hi, no it hasn't and no it isn't, but thanks for your opinion, even though you didn't bother to qualify a damn thing about it and yet somehow still think it matters.
So let me get this right, you want Blizzard to protect you so you can intentionally and openly show what you're doing on the internet? You want all the benefits with none of the responsibility? What are we, primary school?
Now TB, pray and tell what can Blizzard do to the matchmaking system? Give the option to never play the same person multiple times? That doesn't stop it from happening in the first place. Allow you to blacklist certain players? Right, then some scrub blacklists people better than him. Great ladder then
Please enlighten me because it's obvious you have many ideas that would resolve this
Allow you to blacklist certain players? Right, then some scrub blacklists people better than him. Great ladder then
Well now that I think about it, ladder's a bit of a joke anyways. No global ranking, hidden losses and all sorts of problems with early season GM. A limited form of blacklisting wouldn't break things as much they already are...
Why would this be Blizzard's responsibility? The players who stream expose themselves to the risk of dishonest opponent by broadcasting their play. But if it's merely a ladder game at stake, is it really such a big deal? I would understand if it were costing people tournament matches, but this just seems silly.
Allow you to blacklist certain players? Right, then some scrub blacklists people better than him. Great ladder then
Well now that I think about it, ladder's a bit of a joke anyways. No global ranking, hidden losses and all sorts of problems with early season GM. A limited form of blacklisting wouldn't break things as much they already are...
Blacklisting players is worse than all of those things you listed combined
Allow you to blacklist certain players? Right, then some scrub blacklists people better than him. Great ladder then
Well now that I think about it, ladder's a bit of a joke anyways. No global ranking, hidden losses and all sorts of problems with early season GM. A limited form of blacklisting wouldn't break things as much they already are...
those are all arbitrary, and unrelated to it's function.
ladder's first and foremost purpose is: match players who are at your skill level and try and bring you down to 50% w/l.
On January 21 2012 09:12 TheTurk wrote: How can Blizzard possibly be so obtuse? Do they not understand that user streams are beneficial to Blizzard as well as the streamers? The possibility of stream sniping without ramifications is obviously going to drive players away from streaming. Could you imagine a world without streams? The volume of SC2 content on the web would drop so alarmingly. Honestly, how do we as SC2 enthusiasts get our SC2 content?
1) Big Tourneys Stuff like MLG, IEM, HSC, etc. These only come around once every few months and generally take 3-5 days, some of the smaller ones being monthly at best. GSL of course has a slightly different format, but the premise is close enough to clump together with the others. These are nice, but obviously most people are only going to watch through the VOD's once before they're stale. (That's just how this game works.) Too few and far between. Not to mention that watching players in big tourneys is much different than watching them ladder, for many reasons.
2) Showmatch/Weekly Event These, like the big tourneys, are generally sponsored heavily. Stuff that IPL puts out, Korean Weekly, occasional Twitch.tv stuff, etc. The fine production value and quality, high level gameplay, and pro casting feeds us interesting material. A little less sporadic, but the difference in strats and distinction between competitive vs ladder play is still there.
3) Third-Party Content Day[9] comes to mind, among others. Stuff that isn't really commercial or professionally produced all count. These are adequate and quite varied sources of content that one could probably find fresh every day or two.
But none of these compare in volume or audience benefit to:
4) Streamers Every minute of every day, from somewhere in the world there are at least a dozen pros streaming on one of a dozen host sites. This is the Bread and Butter to the average SC2 goer. Some of us have it on 24/7. It's where we go to learn, it's where we go for entertainment, and it's where we go to kill time with something we love. It's the largest source of content in terms of volume, and that by an incredibly huge margin. If something like stream sniping disrupts this content, not volumetrically but in terms of pissing off the streamer or ruining matches, etc, that's something Blizzard should have a problem with.
That huge rant aside, I also question Blizzards knowledge of what "stream sniping" actually is. There's no problem with attempting to play against a pro on the ladder by timing queues correctly. The problem lies in watching the stream to gain an unfair advantage and insight into the player's moves, strategies, and other information specific to that game. There's no reason that Blizzard should be ok with that, let alone discouraging players to stream as a solution.
are you a moron? stream sniping stops almost no streams, and the good players just roll straight over deezer and combatEX even when they are cheating. all it does is teach mediocre but famous streamers how to play vs strong cheese. and blizzard banning people because they are annoying is just retarded, im pretty sure there would be like 5 players on battlenet. dragon and cella have pissed off loads of people in game with silly strats, but no one clamours for them to be banned, even though using someone elses account to play in lower leagues is clearly in breach of the EULA. blizzard aren't discouraging players from streaming, all they are saying is that if you give your opponent an opportunity to gain an advantage, dont be surprised if they take it. if you cant understand their veiwpoint, and why they cant do shit to stop it, then its not even worth my time to post this, but whatever, its written now.
I guess you've never noticed oGsFin losing to Swoozy... MULTIPLE TIMES.
On January 21 2012 11:16 ShatterZer0 wrote: "We don't want to protect our customers or our product. Because we never said we would in this particular loophole case.
So shut up and stop emailing us, retards"
Thank you, Blizzard!
God, all the "business majors" fighting blindly from the "logical" standpoint really need to learn to think from more than ONE perspective...
Yeh, they only want our money. They don't give a shit about anything else.
why does blizzard even release a statement on this, they cannot do anything about this. twitch tv and other stream providers should just make it possible to have long delays on streams (as in around 5 minutes), allowing players to stream safely without being sniped if they want to. (this will not eliminate stream sniping, but limiting what information people will get from doing it.)
On January 21 2012 11:16 ShatterZer0 wrote: "We don't want to protect our customers or our product. Because we never said we would in this particular loophole case.
So shut up and stop emailing us, retards"
Thank you, Blizzard!
God, all the "business majors" fighting blindly from the "logical" standpoint really need to learn to think from more than ONE perspective...
No one asked people to stream games nor make them public in anyway, therefore streamers are just exposing themselves to those people called "stream-cheaters".
Blizzard makes the games and balances it. Complaining to Blizzard that people are streamcheating is the same as complaining to Blizzard that sc2gears doesn't do the proper worker count. It's just a third party program that is not prohibited by Blizzard.
It's the player's responsibility to make sure that people don't snipe or streamcheat them, which is easily solved by making overlays to not show when they are searching a game or hide the game screen while playing against a streamcheater.
I know those kind of things are really annoying and all, but you shouldn't blame Blizzard.
On January 21 2012 11:16 ShatterZer0 wrote: "We don't want to protect our customers or our product. Because we never said we would in this particular loophole case.
So shut up and stop emailing us, retards"
Thank you, Blizzard!
God, all the "business majors" fighting blindly from the "logical" standpoint really need to learn to think from more than ONE perspective...
To be perfectly honest, how is it Blizzard's problem? How did Blizzard end up being the bad guy in this situation?
I don't really know why people expect Blizzard to fix this, streaming is an awesome service done by players and others, and yeah, there are some real d-bags out there who ruin the experience for the player and the viewers, but that's the reality of it. The entire nature of the service is that you get to watch someone live.
I'd be open to suggestions of solutions that Blizzard could implement, but the ones I've seen so far don't really cut it imo. For example, the "blacklisting" or "downvoting" of players would be cool, yeah, but it would lead to abuse of the system whereby people just block players they don't want to vs or lose to regularly (which is probably a big deal in high gm where the targeted streamers mostly are).
Even if there were a way to prevent the abuse of the above idea, how does this system work, does everyone get these rights or does Blizzard have to grant them separately? Neither are good options in my opinion, it would be too cumbersome and maybe even unfair to grant rights to people because they are being harassed via stream (although this sounds a bit more reasonable after I type it).
Give people a limited number of "blocks" or "downvotes"? What if there are more than x amount of people abusing a streamer? Give them more "downvotes"? Then that just leads back to my previous paragraph.
So yeah, to sum up, I personally don't believe this is Blizzard's problem at all, it's just a shame that the nature of a great service is that it can be abused by idiots.
On January 21 2012 11:16 ShatterZer0 wrote: "We don't want to protect our customers or our product. Because we never said we would in this particular loophole case.
So shut up and stop emailing us, retards"
Thank you, Blizzard!
God, all the "business majors" fighting blindly from the "logical" standpoint really need to learn to think from more than ONE perspective...
Wtf do you expect? It's a fair stance by blizzard.
On January 21 2012 11:16 ShatterZer0 wrote: "We don't want to protect our customers or our product. Because we never said we would in this particular loophole case.
So shut up and stop emailing us, retards"
Thank you, Blizzard!
God, all the "business majors" fighting blindly from the "logical" standpoint really need to learn to think from more than ONE perspective...
1. Anyone can be logical, not just business majors. 2. What's wrong with employing logic? Seems to me that you're on the wrong side here.
I've never watched a stream, but one thing is genuinely puzzling me: if pro streamers are afraid of stream sniping then surely they can just play standard and roll over a random second rate? Even a maphack won't help you win against a player playing a standard build with superior mechanics, gamesense, strategy, everything.
On January 21 2012 11:16 ShatterZer0 wrote: "We don't want to protect our customers or our product. Because we never said we would in this particular loophole case.
So shut up and stop emailing us, retards"
Thank you, Blizzard!
God, all the "business majors" fighting blindly from the "logical" standpoint really need to learn to think from more than ONE perspective...
This is terribly ignorant, you dont need to be a business major or narrow-minded by any means to understand their stance on this even without them releasing any statements about it.
They really don't have a way to enforce it, and by streaming, players are allowing anyone to watch their streams. The only thing that can stop stream sniping is integrity of the players themselves. I'm glad that Blizzard made a response explaining why they can't deal with it.
Personally I think the much bigger problem is hacking, and Blizzard can actually deal with that problem. They're doing alright, although they could do much better imo. Personally I wouldn't give a care about things that don't affect gameplay, like unlocking achievements, but doing things like maphacking is just f'd up.
On January 21 2012 11:16 ShatterZer0 wrote: "We don't want to protect our customers or our product. Because we never said we would in this particular loophole case.
So shut up and stop emailing us, retards"
Thank you, Blizzard!
God, all the "business majors" fighting blindly from the "logical" standpoint really need to learn to think from more than ONE perspective...
Since when is it their responsibility to protect streamers of problems they cause themselves by streaming?
I dont see how anybody can fault blizzard here, there is nothing they can do to fix it. It is in the hands of the streamers and the stream programs. You should be mailing the stream websites/program authors about adding in a delay to the streams.
What people need to do is buy new accounts and censor all the names and information on their account . Blizzard should also allow people to hide game history so they can't check the opponents for the match history with the censored streamer. There is no reason for so much transparency by Blizzard. Hell...even if they REALLY want transparency, they can provide exception for streamers of notable reputation since they seem like they kind of want to fix it. THERE IS A FIX but Blizz is not doing it.
Can't you game/match fix the system by stream sniping? If you for example, snipe someone that you know you can beat, and win continiously? If that is the case, isn't that considered cheating?
I sortive agree with blizzard's statement, the streamers are at risk for allowing their content to be able to be viewed so accessible. If they really need to they can either black out their screen or just don't stream at all if its that much of a problem.
On January 21 2012 14:08 enzymezero wrote: Can't you game/match fix the system by stream sniping? If you for example, snipe someone that you know you can beat, and win continiously? If that is the case, isn't that considered cheating?
With that in mind, why is it that Blizzard must step in? Or rather, why do we not go and yell at Twitchtv or Own3d to include a reasonable delay system? I think that Own3d already has that available from a previous post. Having a delay system that you can set will both reduce stream sniping and prevent stream cheating.
To submit another analogy: When I am at a tournament, and someone does something to cheat vs me or someone games the system to play vs me knowing they can beat me, I don't complain to Blizzard. I complain to the tournament hosts.
wow... I just cannot believe some posts here... Blizzard should be on his knees thanking streamers for their help to keep SC2 what it is. Streams are the backbone of this community and Blizzard should have been helping them gladly. It is Blizzard's lost really..
On January 20 2012 14:43 screwy474 wrote: Couldn't blizzard simply add the ability to avoid players on ladder to b.net? Wouldn't that solve the entire stream sniping issue. Then for stream cheating in tourneys they have officials to deal with that stuff so the problem would disappear. I mean I could be over simplifying this entire thing but this seems like a pretty simple fix.
You give people the ability to avoid people on ladder, then everyone will avoid people they can't beat and thus the ladder ranking system would be way off.
Yes I would. With some sort of limit on how many people you could avoid of course. Enough people where trying to stream snipe and cheat on multiple accounts is so expensive it becomes not worth it. While still not being so many that match making would be broken. Maybe somewhere around 50 or so. Considering how many people actually play and how much money each account would cost this number seems reasonable and I would venture to guess that it could be even higher without having any true effect on the matchmaking system.
Your argument seems to rely on the idea that you could for some reason block an unlimited number of accounts and while i never specified that this was never an intention, I figured it could be safely assumed this was not the case.On top of that why do you care if people ruin their own game experience by attempting to never play people that challenge them as a player? Your ladder experience would not be cheapened at all by the loss of those that do not wish to challenge themselves for those that do not challenge themselves do not improve.
On January 20 2012 14:43 screwy474 wrote: Couldn't blizzard simply add the ability to avoid players on ladder to b.net? Wouldn't that solve the entire stream sniping issue. Then for stream cheating in tourneys they have officials to deal with that stuff so the problem would disappear. I mean I could be over simplifying this entire thing but this seems like a pretty simple fix.
You give people the ability to avoid people on ladder, then everyone will avoid people they can't beat and thus the ladder ranking system would be way off.
Yes I would. With some sort of limit on how many people you could avoid of course. Enough people where trying to stream snipe and cheat on multiple accounts is so expensive it becomes not worth it. While still not being so many that match making would be broken. Maybe somewhere around 50 or so. Considering how many people actually play and how much money each account would cost this number seems reasonable and I would venture to guess that it could be even higher without having any true effect on the matchmaking system.
Your argument seems to rely on the idea that you could for some reason block an unlimited number of accounts and while i never specified that this was never an intention, I figured it could be safely assumed this was not the case.On top of that why do you care if people ruin their own game experience by attempting to never play people that challenge them as a player? Your ladder experience would not be cheapened at all by the loss of those that do not wish to challenge themselves for those that do not challenge themselves do not improve.
Excellent idea, lets give everyone the opportunity to avoid better players than them. Then the ladder will become even more representative
On January 21 2012 14:02 boaecho wrote: What people need to do is buy new accounts and censor all the names and information on their account . Blizzard should also allow people to hide game history so they can't check the opponents for the match history with the censored streamer. There is no reason for so much transparency by Blizzard. Hell...even if they REALLY want transparency, they can provide exception for streamers of notable reputation since they seem like they kind of want to fix it. THERE IS A FIX but Blizz is not doing it.
Can anyone be a devil's advocate to my point? I want to know if there are holes in it.
If I have a teamspeak channel and talk about my games (no stream) and my opponent joins so he knows what I'm doing against him... How is that something Blizzard should (or could) fix? If someone starts harassing me over teamspeak should I ask Blizzard for the ability to block them?
If a poker player (p)lays his cards face up so his fans can watch it's hardly up to the WPT to punish his opponents...
Perhaps we should be looking at twitch/own3d for solutions... I know there are delay options, but why not options for better known streamers (the ones "suffering") to have "private" channels so they could kick/ban viewers (like they can in chat).
Sure, this would eliminate some of the viewers (who wants to log in just so they can view a stream) and it might be hard to figure out what viewer is the doing the sniping, but it would be an alternative to shutting down the stream...
Bottom line: It's up to the players/community/service to come up with a solution. This isn't a Blizzard problem (no matter how much streaming might be good for their product).
On January 21 2012 14:08 enzymezero wrote: Can't you game/match fix the system by stream sniping? If you for example, snipe someone that you know you can beat, and win continiously? If that is the case, isn't that considered cheating?
You can do this just by having someone on your friend list and queuing up when you see their status change (afaik, that's "actually" how stream snipers [and cheaters] do it b/c it's quicker than reacting to the 10s delay most streams have).
I agree with Blizzard's stance on this. Streamer's are aware of the risk they take when they start streaming in the first place. It's only natural that once you get more exposure ( and money as well ), that you drag enough attention to loose to some stream snipes here or there. Such is the price to pay for fans and recognition I guess.
Blizzard can only control so many things, and this issue is pretty much out of they jurisdiction, and interest. Imo
On January 20 2012 14:43 screwy474 wrote: Couldn't blizzard simply add the ability to avoid players on ladder to b.net? Wouldn't that solve the entire stream sniping issue. Then for stream cheating in tourneys they have officials to deal with that stuff so the problem would disappear. I mean I could be over simplifying this entire thing but this seems like a pretty simple fix.
You give people the ability to avoid people on ladder, then everyone will avoid people they can't beat and thus the ladder ranking system would be way off.
Yes I would. With some sort of limit on how many people you could avoid of course. Enough people where trying to stream snipe and cheat on multiple accounts is so expensive it becomes not worth it. While still not being so many that match making would be broken. Maybe somewhere around 50 or so. Considering how many people actually play and how much money each account would cost this number seems reasonable and I would venture to guess that it could be even higher without having any true effect on the matchmaking system.
Your argument seems to rely on the idea that you could for some reason block an unlimited number of accounts and while i never specified that this was never an intention, I figured it could be safely assumed this was not the case.On top of that why do you care if people ruin their own game experience by attempting to never play people that challenge them as a player? Your ladder experience would not be cheapened at all by the loss of those that do not wish to challenge themselves for those that do not challenge themselves do not improve.
Someone could ladder while avoiding maybe 1/4 of the players in GM. How on earth is that fair? This isn't so much about the "ladder experience", but Blizzard actually tries to legitimize the ladder by placing some emphasis on it, like awarding spots for their invitationals.
There is an elephant in the room that has barely been touched on here: Saying that the immature pranks that the likes of Deezer play on pro gamers hurts them in any way is a FALLACY. It increases the popularity of streams and adds the drama of having someone to hate. I'd go so far as to campare it to people watching car racing just to see a crash. Everybody knows that Destiny's online clashes with Deezer and the like have created more buzz for him than anything else. Seriously guys stop with the whining and enjoy this game.
Kind of surprised that people even expect blizzard to do anything.
Btw. what is that with twitch not having a "decent" delay system? Because I think that is the key to everything. Even with delay, you can interact with your fans in the chat. Just wait the appropiate minutes till they caught the end of a match and you can catch with them.
Since it's ladder games I don't really think there's a whole lot that can be done. There's stream delay, but many prominent streamers want to be able to interact live with their viewerbase etc. It's a choice, and as long as pro players use ladder exclusively for practice and it holds no significance outside of that I don't think it's meaningful to do anything about it.
On January 21 2012 21:15 Shafanhow wrote: There is an elephant in the room that has barely been touched on here: Saying that the immature pranks that the likes of Deezer play on pro gamers hurts them in any way is a FALLACY. It increases the popularity of streams and adds the drama of having someone to hate. I'd go so far as to campare it to people watching car racing just to see a crash. Everybody knows that Destiny's online clashes with Deezer and the like have created more buzz for him than anything else. Seriously guys stop with the whining and enjoy this game.
Actually alot of viewers leave when (For example) Destiny is forced to cover his screen for 10-20 minutes to play a game.. My english isn't very good, but did you just try to say that deezer is the reason destiny gets so many viewers? O.o
"Stop the whining and enjoy this game" that's the problem, people like deezer stream snipes, start spamming bullshit and ruins the fun for alot of people watching. I just dont understand how people can defend someone like Deezer, when all he does is act like a little kid and waste alot of peoples time when they try to stream.
Is this troll thread or what? If you choose to stream and ur famous you simply must take something like this into account also its ur choice to stream. I understant that streams are vital part of sc community and few ppl are trying to ruin but thats how it is. I dont see how this is blizzard issue at all. Atm only possible options a) Delay stream by few minutes wich hinders possible reaction with audience b) Cover stream like Destiny wich isnt rly what we want to watch
Both of them are bad i hope we can come up with something soon
only way really is to mark the stream snipers. Unless every viewer will have to install a program that checks if any of the computer with the same IP is in the battlenet and then deny access and even then its not save lol.
If you want to make money with streaming i guess you have to live with it, because no one can really help you against this, as its your own choice to stream, unless you sue someone in the world you don't know for harassment.
But blizzards hint is basically the easiest way to do it, and probably the only reason of their statement. Just need a techie friend to setup a stream delay for you. Got someone trying to snipe you turn on till they leave frustrated as they will never be able to snipe you (searching match wait a few seks cancel and the stream sniper will have to fight someone else).
On January 20 2012 13:54 blah_blah wrote: Encouraging to know that Blizzard can't even be bothered to figure out what stream sniping actually is.
Not sure if trolling or just didn't read
He's right, you're wrong.
Well considering I remember the cast of State of the Game using the term "stream sniping" to refer to stream cheating back when Destiny got banned for spamming Deezer, I think Blizz can be forgiven.
What you do is you black out the screen when you are about to que, turn off the SOUND so they cant hear you searching and then you wait a random amount of time (between 10 seconds and 30) THEN you can search.
On January 22 2012 00:32 Lebzetu wrote: What you do is you black out the screen when you are about to que, turn off the SOUND so they cant hear you searching and then you wait a random amount of time (between 10 seconds and 30) THEN you can search.
Stream sniping is usually NOT done through stream...
On January 21 2012 14:08 enzymezero wrote: Can't you game/match fix the system by stream sniping? If you for example, snipe someone that you know you can beat, and win continiously? If that is the case, isn't that considered cheating?
You can do this just by having someone on your friend list and queuing up when you see their status change (afaik, that's "actually" how stream snipers [and cheaters] do it b/c it's quicker than reacting to the 10s delay most streams have).
On January 21 2012 16:32 foxmulder_ms wrote: wow... I just cannot believe some posts here... Blizzard should be on his knees thanking streamers for their help to keep SC2 what it is. Streams are the backbone of this community and Blizzard should have been helping them gladly. It is Blizzard's lost really..
I can't help but to laugh at this, really..... what do you expect them to do really? Blizzard's in the right this time. People put themselves at risk when Streaming.
On January 20 2012 13:43 Gl!tch wrote: It appears that Blizzard is indeed aware of the problems with stream sniping, but their initial responce gives little hope for changes to be made.
This was the original post of a stickied thread on the Blizzard forums by Community Manager, Bashiok:
We’ve continued to see reports regarding someone live streaming their match, and their opponent watching the stream in order to gain an in-game advantage (also known as stream sniping). While this is obviously poor sportsmanship on the part of the one viewing the stream, we’d like to clarify that this is not a violation of any current policies. In fact, we cannot enforce any ‘fair play’ policies if a user chooses to provide their opponent an advantage. If someone in-game chooses to tell their opponent every move they’re making, thereby informing them how to counter it, we cannot conclude that any violation has taken place. Even if this could be considered a violation, we simply cannot micro-manage every streamed match to ensure the opponent was not looking at it, or using it to their advantage. It goes far beyond the scope of what we’re able to enforce. It’s advisable for those streaming to take precautions, including delaying their streams by a significant amount of time, to avoid any potential advantage they may be providing their opponent.
We are absolutely able to enforce, and will continue to do so, violations that include harassment of others in-game, use of hacks, abuse of our reporting tools, and attempts to disrupt the gameplay of others. If you believe that someone is in violation of the game rules it does not warrant behavior, language, or abuse that would earn you, yourself, a suspension from the game. If you'd like to report an offense, please report the player using clear and descriptive language only once; support will review that report and take action based on the validity of the complaint, not the persistence of the reporting.
The intent with our policies is to ensure a fair and fun experience in Blizzard games, but the act of providing a window into your game for your opponent to see is not considered a violation, should they choose to use that to their advantage. We encourage anyone streaming to keep this in mind while doing so.
TLDR: Blizzard is aware of stream sniping, but have no policies against it because streamers are willingly making their games viewable. They suggest that streamers take extra precautions, as they cannot possibly deal with the problem. They will, of course, still be working against hacks and other such violations.
Personaly, I think their argument is fine. (Wait, don't rage at me). As much as I would like all stream snipers/cheaters to be permanantly demoted to bronze league, streamers are putting themselves at risk, and Blizzard has no rules against such things. For the record, I watch pro-gamer streams all the time, and it's annoying as a viewer as well as the streamer, as there is nothing fun about watching a game where somebody is cheating.
Feel free to discuss, don't get mad if you disagree.
P.S. It's been brought up that Blizzard seems to be confused between "stream sniping" and "stream cheating", being that one is queuing up to get a game with a pro, and the other is watching their stream during the game to win. I don't think this matters, thats like correcting somebody's grammar or spelling in an effort to defeat their argument. Blizzards position is quite clear, word choice regardless.
Did you really expect them to say anything else on the matter? To me, it's sounds like common sense and a lot of us have been saying the same thing over and over again. It's just one of those things that comes along with streaming. That's why you probably should avoid streaming during a tournament and let the caster delay do the rest.
On January 21 2012 14:02 boaecho wrote: What people need to do is buy new accounts and censor all the names and information on their account . Blizzard should also allow people to hide game history so they can't check the opponents for the match history with the censored streamer. There is no reason for so much transparency by Blizzard. Hell...even if they REALLY want transparency, they can provide exception for streamers of notable reputation since they seem like they kind of want to fix it. THERE IS A FIX but Blizz is not doing it.
Can anyone be a devil's advocate to my point? I want to know if there are holes in it.
uhmmm, you dont need to know anything but the ladder and teh time they press search to snipe, as long as your mmr is high enough. unless blizzard were to implement a system where players in game were referred to as red and blue, then it would be easy to know which ladder someone was on by their opponents. i actually have no idea how anything in your post would help at all, the entire idea seems completely incoherent, so i cant be sure if what ive said is valid either.
If the player is stupid enough to stream in a high profile match then that's his fault. How can anyone ask blizzard to do anything about that. That's like me streaming my cards when I'm playing poker and not expecting people to cheat. Of course they will.
Don't turn this into a debate of what stream sniping is vs. stream cheating.
They did mistake sniping for cheating, but their answer to the problem is going to be the same. I wish something could be done, but the streamer is the one giving an advantage to the opponent. Glad to see them make a statement on this. There's nothing that can be done on their end.
On January 21 2012 16:32 foxmulder_ms wrote: wow... I just cannot believe some posts here... Blizzard should be on his knees thanking streamers for their help to keep SC2 what it is. Streams are the backbone of this community and Blizzard should have been helping them gladly. It is Blizzard's lost really..
Say you worked at Blizzard and were part of theh SCII team. What would/could you possibly do to change things? Think of it.
On January 21 2012 16:32 foxmulder_ms wrote: wow... I just cannot believe some posts here... Blizzard should be on his knees thanking streamers for their help to keep SC2 what it is. Streams are the backbone of this community and Blizzard should have been helping them gladly. It is Blizzard's lost really..
Sorry but i had to laugh at this post. Streamers help to keep SC2 what is? What does that even mean. If something does that it are the tournaments. The streamers put themselves at risk by streaming in the first place and Blizzard should suddenly find a good way to remove those risks?
Yea this is pretty much what everyone thought would be blizzard's answer anyways... I mean CombatEX and Deezer are really fucking annoying but blizzard can't ban you for being a asshole irl
On January 21 2012 16:32 foxmulder_ms wrote: wow... I just cannot believe some posts here... Blizzard should be on his knees thanking streamers for their help to keep SC2 what it is. Streams are the backbone of this community and Blizzard should have been helping them gladly. It is Blizzard's lost really..
Say you worked at Blizzard and were part of theh SCII team. What would/could you possibly do to change things? Think of it.
cant be matched with the same person more than a certain amount of times in a certain timeframe.
Guys, it isn't Blizzard's responsibility to combat this. Like they said, its equivalent to telling the opponent what you are doing. This is the risk you take with streaming and there is nothing that blizzard could do to stop it on their end.
On January 21 2012 16:32 foxmulder_ms wrote: wow... I just cannot believe some posts here... Blizzard should be on his knees thanking streamers for their help to keep SC2 what it is. Streams are the backbone of this community and Blizzard should have been helping them gladly. It is Blizzard's lost really..
Say you worked at Blizzard and were part of theh SCII team. What would/could you possibly do to change things? Think of it.
You have a valid point, what can be done about stream cheating?
That said, I always thought it would be awesome if you could challenged a player in a similar position on the ladder if your both online at the same time.
On January 20 2012 14:00 bigAL wrote: I hate to sound douchy but I think jargon is important.
Stream sniping is the act using a stream to push the "find match" button at the same time as the streamer; thereby increasing your odds of getting to play Idra, Destiny, etc.
Stream cheating is using the stream to get information to help counter your opponents build, army positioning, expand timing, etc. (equivalent to hacking).
It's not 'equivalent to hacking at all, and arguing semantics is irrelevant - either way Blizzard's position will be the same
dont know if someone else had this idea in the 19 pages but isnt a simple way to name the players as player 1 vs player 2 or blue vs red and reveal the names on the score screen ?
On January 21 2012 16:32 foxmulder_ms wrote: wow... I just cannot believe some posts here... Blizzard should be on his knees thanking streamers for their help to keep SC2 what it is. Streams are the backbone of this community and Blizzard should have been helping them gladly. It is Blizzard's lost really..
Say you worked at Blizzard and were part of theh SCII team. What would/could you possibly do to change things? Think of it.
cant be matched with the same person more than a certain amount of times in a certain timeframe.
+1, would probably be good for the game anyway.
And just go ahead and ban Deezer and CombatEX since they're responsible for like 90% of the stream cheating at the GM level anyway.
The thing about stream sniping is that the streamer just needs to be the better player and simply just win , and if the sniper keeps trying to snipe then just keep beating him till the sniper loses motivation and realizes the streamer is better, Stream cheating is bad and I def. disagree with it but as long as there is a competitive aspect in this game , people will do anything to try to indulge in themselves by trying to win games vs players they dislike or know are popular or for whatever other reason, but the "Stream Sniping " is a lot different than "Stream Cheating" as said in the OP , Stream sniping could never be prevented IMO besides the streamer to just stop streaming, or to just man up and play better and win.
Stream sniping or stream cheating isn't anybody's problem but the streamer. end of story. nothing to discuss. if you cheat off streams you are just ruining your opportunity to play the person straight up, its your loss in the end.
On January 21 2012 16:32 foxmulder_ms wrote: wow... I just cannot believe some posts here... Blizzard should be on his knees thanking streamers for their help to keep SC2 what it is. Streams are the backbone of this community and Blizzard should have been helping them gladly. It is Blizzard's lost really..
Say you worked at Blizzard and were part of theh SCII team. What would/could you possibly do to change things? Think of it.
cant be matched with the same person more than a certain amount of times in a certain timeframe.
That works when there are a sufficiently large number of people queuing in a given MMR range. What would you do if your rule caused highly rated players to have to wait in the queue for 10~20 minutes between matches? (This is exactly what used to happen in Blizzard's old matchmaking algorithms, in Wow Arenas circa 2007).
It's a tradeoff. Out of:
Quick games
Evenly matched games
Games against unique players
You often only get to pick one or two out of those three variables when the pool of players in a given MMR range becomes very sparse.
On January 23 2012 10:39 NEEDZMOAR wrote: I know for a fact that HoN players/casters use delayed streaming, why cant Starcraft 2 casters/players do the same thing?
just delay the stream about 5-6-7 minutes.
Our streams are more entertaining because players can interact with the players too. Like they can read what the viewers want them to do, and sometimes, they just might do it.
For people who interact with their viewers less, of course delay is recommended - but quite a few successful streams are ones with player-viewer interaction.
I think thats really bad on their part about saying people are willingly giving the info away. Oh well hope streamers start using delay in streams or something.
People expect Blizzard to fix everything. It's quite sad how people think sometimes I think. Why should blizzard do anything honestly? Because people viewing the stream aren't getting as good as quality they hoped? Well is streaming acually part of the game they created? No, not really. It's part of the community and the player chooses whether or not to stream. Now if Blizzard had an ingame stream function or what have you that they implemented then I think it would become their problem to a certain extent. Until then it should never be any of their concerns.
Do I view it as cheating and a problem, yes. Do I think it's blizzards problem? no.
Actually IMO if anything it's the streaming site's problem(it's not really their problem but it is more-so than Blizzards) or the player playing. You should have the option to put sign-on only viewing(if there isn't already) and/or a way to permanent block some people from viewing.
On January 21 2012 16:32 foxmulder_ms wrote: wow... I just cannot believe some posts here... Blizzard should be on his knees thanking streamers for their help to keep SC2 what it is. Streams are the backbone of this community and Blizzard should have been helping them gladly. It is Blizzard's lost really..
Say you worked at Blizzard and were part of theh SCII team. What would/could you possibly do to change things? Think of it.
cant be matched with the same person more than a certain amount of times in a certain timeframe.
That works when there are a sufficiently large number of people queuing in a given MMR range. What would you do if your rule caused highly rated players to have to wait in the queue for 10~20 minutes between matches? (This is exactly what used to happen in Blizzard's old matchmaking algorithms, in Wow Arenas circa 2007).
It's a tradeoff. Out of:
Quick games
Evenly matched games
Games against unique players
You often only get to pick one or two out of those three variables when the pool of players in a given MMR range becomes very sparse.
This guy gets it.
30 minute queues aren't fun, and since your ranking is based indirectly on how many games you can play, it would completely degrade the competition of Grandmaster's league if this was enforced.
In essence, whoever played during peak hours would have the opportunity to gain many more points than anyone playing at non-peak hours which is harmful to the competition. that's what happened during WoW.
What could Blizzard do against that? They shouldn't even have to justify themselves, it's not their fault and there's nothing they can do about it. It's up to the streamer to implement delay if they suspect someone cheating.
On January 20 2012 13:54 blah_blah wrote: Encouraging to know that Blizzard can't even be bothered to figure out what stream sniping actually is.
Not sure if trolling or just didn't read
User was warned for this post
Seriously, dont know why you got warned, sorry dude, But i have always thought that if they delayed their stream, there would be no problem. Why hasnt this happened?
How bad and patetich stream sniping may be, sadly this is not really Blizzards issue to fix. If a person decides to stream, he must take the risk that someone will play unfair and watch the stream to get an advantage. There are no rule or law that say that you can not watch a stream while playing.
Streamers have to either put on delay, or turn of the stream when they play someone they know streamsnipe.
EPT
Hm well you could still stream + play custom practice games.
