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On January 21 2012 04:35 WolfintheSheep wrote:
I'm not sure how people can say that stream snipers like Deezer aren't harassing people. You can make the case that syncing your queues for 5 games in a row isn't harassment, and you'd probably be right.
Spamming match requests, though, for no purpose other than to be annoying?
Insulting them constantly during games?
Deezer's harassment is well documented, and is available on every NA streamers channels.
Good points about multiple queuing. Maybe they could patch the match-making service so that you could only be matched up with a certain player a maximum of 3 times per day? I mean, you will still have "stream snipers/cheaters" but they won't be able to constantly "harass" the streamer.
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On January 21 2012 04:33 willoc wrote:
Do you also want these staff members to watch the replays and find signs of "blind counters" (subjective proof)? I hope you understand that there is no objective way to prove they were watching the stream as well unless you have access to "stream sniper's" computer which Blizzard does not.
You see, when people investigate "vision hacks" there are tell-tale, objective signs you can point to such as the cheater selecting a building he does not have vision of. The cheater looking at "area of fog" can't even be admitted as evidence as it proves nothing except that their view was positioned there. These subjective proofs are only leads, not real proofs and once you start letting staff/admins/etc. make "judgement calls" you are opening a huge door to abuse and corruption (imagine pros being banned because someone "thought" they were stream sniping).
There is no way to prove these accusations of "stream sniping". It is all circumstantial. When you stream, you take the risk of someone playing you and watching the stream. A parallel of this can be seen in "live" tournament's difficulty in controlling people watching the tournament in real time and passing the information to the players.
What if you looked at the time that players are hitting the "find match" button, and you notice that hey, Deezer and Destiny played each other eight times in a row and Deezer consistently hit the button exactly 3 seconds (or however long the natural stream delay is) after Destiny? What if you check the chat logs and Destiny says "you're a cockface, stop sniping me" and Deezer says "you can't do anything about it lol" or something dumb like that?
I know there are "subjective" cases, but there are some cases that just plain aren't. Remember when Deezer was streaming himself sniping Destiny? Remember when Cruncher and IdrA played like 30 games in a row against each other?
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On January 21 2012 04:38 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 04:17 willoc wrote:On January 21 2012 04:05 Klondikebar wrote:
And yes, Blizzard absolutely has the tools to enforce this. Perhaps they can't catch someone who stream snipes once (and I wouldn't expect them to be able to). But there are some high profile stream snipers that can EASILY be caught.
Please elaborate on these "tools". I am guessing you don't have much knowledge in this area (computers or information technology) but I might be mistaken. If anyone knows of these magical "tools" please enlighten the rest of us. How about the mountains of VOD's where Deezer and CombatEx are blatantly stream sniping? It's not rocket science to figure out that those guys stream snipe. Basically, a little common sense would go a long way on this issue.
Could you please explain "blatantly stream sniping"? Are these videos on their own website where they make references to themselves stream sniping at the moment it is happening? If so, you might have the case there. But if Blizzard does punish them using this, why would future Deezers/ComatExs ever post these videos while they continue to stream snipe?
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On January 21 2012 04:41 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 04:33 willoc wrote:
Do you also want these staff members to watch the replays and find signs of "blind counters" (subjective proof)? I hope you understand that there is no objective way to prove they were watching the stream as well unless you have access to "stream sniper's" computer which Blizzard does not.
You see, when people investigate "vision hacks" there are tell-tale, objective signs you can point to such as the cheater selecting a building he does not have vision of. The cheater looking at "area of fog" can't even be admitted as evidence as it proves nothing except that their view was positioned there. These subjective proofs are only leads, not real proofs and once you start letting staff/admins/etc. make "judgement calls" you are opening a huge door to abuse and corruption (imagine pros being banned because someone "thought" they were stream sniping).
There is no way to prove these accusations of "stream sniping". It is all circumstantial. When you stream, you take the risk of someone playing you and watching the stream. A parallel of this can be seen in "live" tournament's difficulty in controlling people watching the tournament in real time and passing the information to the players. What if you looked at the time that players are hitting the "find match" button, and you notice that hey, Deezer and Destiny played each other eight times in a row and Deezer consistently hit the button exactly 3 seconds (or however long the natural stream delay is) after Destiny? What if you check the chat logs and Destiny says "you're a cockface, stop sniping me" and Deezer says "you can't do anything about it lol" or something dumb like that? I know there are "subjective" cases, but there are some cases that just plain aren't. Remember when Deezer was streaming himself sniping Destiny? Remember when Cruncher and IdrA played like 30 games in a row against each other?
You make good points here but it would require extensive investigation by Blizzard to verify and document these actions before they could take legal action (even if they imposed new rules in the EULA). If they chose not to document them and plainly reserve the right to ban whoever they please, the door to abuse by Blizzard staff is opened.
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On January 21 2012 04:41 willoc wrote:
Could you please explain "blatantly stream sniping"? Are these videos on their own website where they make references to themselves stream sniping at the moment it is happening? If so, you might have the case there. But if Blizzard does punish them using this, why would future Deezers/ComatExs ever post these videos while they continue to stream snipe?
Even just forcing the people who are blatantly sniping to be more subtle would be a step in the right direction. If Deezer is afraid to snipe 5 games in a row because he runs the risk of getting his account banned, that's a good thing. Sure, he might still snipe, but he'd do something different like snipe Destiny and then Tyler and then IdrA and then Jinro or whatever instead of just ruining one person's day, which I think is better.
You make good points here but it would require extensive investigation by Blizzard to verify and document these actions before they could take legal action (even if they imposed new rules in the EULA). If they chose not to, the door to abuse by Blizzard staff is opened.
I don't think it would be as intensive of an investigation as people think. There really aren't that many people getting stream sniped, it only happens to people with popular streams and that's what, 15-20 players? I can't think of more than three players who have been proven to be sniping in the whole time the game's been out, and I would be shocked if there's more than 20 people total who are in GM (or close to it) that actually snipe.
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On January 21 2012 04:41 willoc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 04:38 Klondikebar wrote:On January 21 2012 04:17 willoc wrote:On January 21 2012 04:05 Klondikebar wrote:
And yes, Blizzard absolutely has the tools to enforce this. Perhaps they can't catch someone who stream snipes once (and I wouldn't expect them to be able to). But there are some high profile stream snipers that can EASILY be caught.
Please elaborate on these "tools". I am guessing you don't have much knowledge in this area (computers or information technology) but I might be mistaken. If anyone knows of these magical "tools" please enlighten the rest of us. How about the mountains of VOD's where Deezer and CombatEx are blatantly stream sniping? It's not rocket science to figure out that those guys stream snipe. Basically, a little common sense would go a long way on this issue. Could you please explain "blatantly stream sniping"? Are these videos on their own website where they make references to themselves stream sniping at the moment it is happening? If so, you might have the case there. But if Blizzard does punish them using this, why would future Deezers/ComatExs ever post these videos while they continue to stream snipe?
You could use those. But how about the VOD's where the matchmaker "randomly" matches a pro against a player 4 and 5 times in a row? Like I said, I don't expect them to catch someone who just stream snipes once...and I'm not really sure I care about someone who stream snipes once. But when Deezer gets matched up against Spanishiwa 6 times in a row it should be pretty easy to say "I think Deezer is stream sniping."
As far as reporting these things, there could be a "report stream sniping" option for grand master level players. Actually, forget VOD's. You can just check the match history.
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Why doesn't blizzard make it so you can' t face the same guy twice or rarely 3 times in a row
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On January 21 2012 04:44 Klondikebar wrote:
You could use those. But how about the VOD's where the matchmaker "randomly" matches a pro against a player 4 and 5 times in a row? Like I said, I don't expect them to catch someone who just stream snipes once...and I'm not really sure I care about someone who stream snipes once. But when Deezer gets matched up against Spanishiwa 6 times in a row it should be pretty easy to say "I think Deezer is stream sniping."
If neither player reports the other, why would there be a problem? I've seen players get repeat-matched too, and usually the players know each other and go "lol matchmaking is hilarious" and go on with their day.
edit: also I don't think they should check into it every time someone gets reported for sniping, but if you have like 10-20 instances of a single player getting reported for it, and there's evidence, that should raise red flags.
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On January 21 2012 04:49 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 04:44 Klondikebar wrote:
You could use those. But how about the VOD's where the matchmaker "randomly" matches a pro against a player 4 and 5 times in a row? Like I said, I don't expect them to catch someone who just stream snipes once...and I'm not really sure I care about someone who stream snipes once. But when Deezer gets matched up against Spanishiwa 6 times in a row it should be pretty easy to say "I think Deezer is stream sniping."
If neither player reports the other, why would there be a problem? I've seen players get repeat-matched too, and usually the players know each other and go "lol matchmaking is hilarious" and go on with their day. edit: also I don't think they should check into it every time someone gets reported for sniping, but if you have like 10-20 instances of a single player getting reported for it, and there's evidence, that should raise red flags.
I edited in a solution. Grand Master players get a "report sniping" option. Blizzard only needs to check match history.
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On January 21 2012 04:47 IcedteaSC2 wrote:
Why doesn't blizzard make it so you can' t face the same guy twice or rarely 3 times in a row
In my eyes, limiting the same-player matches like this to a certain amount per day (3ish) in the match-making service is the only solution to this problem. This would help out in other problem areas as well (portrait farmers abusing bottom bronze players, match-fixing in 1v1 and FFA, etc.). The argument could be made that it could negatively impact match-making when there are low amounts of players queuing for games but I doubt this would affect it as playing the same player over and over on the ladder ruins match-making system inherently.
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On January 21 2012 04:55 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 04:49 corpuscle wrote:On January 21 2012 04:44 Klondikebar wrote:
You could use those. But how about the VOD's where the matchmaker "randomly" matches a pro against a player 4 and 5 times in a row? Like I said, I don't expect them to catch someone who just stream snipes once...and I'm not really sure I care about someone who stream snipes once. But when Deezer gets matched up against Spanishiwa 6 times in a row it should be pretty easy to say "I think Deezer is stream sniping."
If neither player reports the other, why would there be a problem? I've seen players get repeat-matched too, and usually the players know each other and go "lol matchmaking is hilarious" and go on with their day. edit: also I don't think they should check into it every time someone gets reported for sniping, but if you have like 10-20 instances of a single player getting reported for it, and there's evidence, that should raise red flags. I edited in a solution. Grand Master players get a "report sniping" option. Blizzard only needs to check match history.
What does this prove? That they played games against each other in a row? Who's fault is that? It would have to be both players as they both pressed the "find match" button.
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On January 21 2012 04:56 willoc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 04:55 Klondikebar wrote:On January 21 2012 04:49 corpuscle wrote:On January 21 2012 04:44 Klondikebar wrote:
You could use those. But how about the VOD's where the matchmaker "randomly" matches a pro against a player 4 and 5 times in a row? Like I said, I don't expect them to catch someone who just stream snipes once...and I'm not really sure I care about someone who stream snipes once. But when Deezer gets matched up against Spanishiwa 6 times in a row it should be pretty easy to say "I think Deezer is stream sniping."
If neither player reports the other, why would there be a problem? I've seen players get repeat-matched too, and usually the players know each other and go "lol matchmaking is hilarious" and go on with their day. edit: also I don't think they should check into it every time someone gets reported for sniping, but if you have like 10-20 instances of a single player getting reported for it, and there's evidence, that should raise red flags. I edited in a solution. Grand Master players get a "report sniping" option. Blizzard only needs to check match history. What does this prove? That they played games against each other in a row? Who's fault is that? It would have to be both players as they both pressed the "find match" button.
You obviously wouldn't get banned for being matched twice in a row. But bad stream snipers will get matched against a player 5 or 6 times in a row...honestly, did you read my post?
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On January 21 2012 04:58 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 04:56 willoc wrote:On January 21 2012 04:55 Klondikebar wrote:On January 21 2012 04:49 corpuscle wrote:On January 21 2012 04:44 Klondikebar wrote:
You could use those. But how about the VOD's where the matchmaker "randomly" matches a pro against a player 4 and 5 times in a row? Like I said, I don't expect them to catch someone who just stream snipes once...and I'm not really sure I care about someone who stream snipes once. But when Deezer gets matched up against Spanishiwa 6 times in a row it should be pretty easy to say "I think Deezer is stream sniping."
If neither player reports the other, why would there be a problem? I've seen players get repeat-matched too, and usually the players know each other and go "lol matchmaking is hilarious" and go on with their day. edit: also I don't think they should check into it every time someone gets reported for sniping, but if you have like 10-20 instances of a single player getting reported for it, and there's evidence, that should raise red flags. I edited in a solution. Grand Master players get a "report sniping" option. Blizzard only needs to check match history. What does this prove? That they played games against each other in a row? Who's fault is that? It would have to be both players as they both pressed the "find match" button. You obviously wouldn't get banned for being matched twice in a row. But bad stream snipers will get matched against a player 5 or 6 times in a row...honestly, did you read my post?
people have played 6 matches in a row against the same person just by coincidence many times before....
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I once got 7 matches in a row against same player,and we both arent streamers(i think he isnt).
So you cant just ban deezer coz he snipes someone or whoever else he snipes coz there would be a lot of guys who get banned(like me and that dude).
Deezer shouldnt get banned just coz he snipes,if you are streaming theres always potential someone is sniping you or watching your stream,you get money from ads in exchange of someone cheating against you and potentially making you mad.
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On January 21 2012 05:00 SnowSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 04:58 Klondikebar wrote:On January 21 2012 04:56 willoc wrote:On January 21 2012 04:55 Klondikebar wrote:On January 21 2012 04:49 corpuscle wrote:On January 21 2012 04:44 Klondikebar wrote:
You could use those. But how about the VOD's where the matchmaker "randomly" matches a pro against a player 4 and 5 times in a row? Like I said, I don't expect them to catch someone who just stream snipes once...and I'm not really sure I care about someone who stream snipes once. But when Deezer gets matched up against Spanishiwa 6 times in a row it should be pretty easy to say "I think Deezer is stream sniping."
If neither player reports the other, why would there be a problem? I've seen players get repeat-matched too, and usually the players know each other and go "lol matchmaking is hilarious" and go on with their day. edit: also I don't think they should check into it every time someone gets reported for sniping, but if you have like 10-20 instances of a single player getting reported for it, and there's evidence, that should raise red flags. I edited in a solution. Grand Master players get a "report sniping" option. Blizzard only needs to check match history. What does this prove? That they played games against each other in a row? Who's fault is that? It would have to be both players as they both pressed the "find match" button. You obviously wouldn't get banned for being matched twice in a row. But bad stream snipers will get matched against a player 5 or 6 times in a row...honestly, did you read my post? people have played 6 matches in a row against the same person just by coincidence many times before....
What he said. Should one of them be banned? Maybe both?
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On January 21 2012 05:00 SnowSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 04:58 Klondikebar wrote:On January 21 2012 04:56 willoc wrote:On January 21 2012 04:55 Klondikebar wrote:On January 21 2012 04:49 corpuscle wrote:On January 21 2012 04:44 Klondikebar wrote:
You could use those. But how about the VOD's where the matchmaker "randomly" matches a pro against a player 4 and 5 times in a row? Like I said, I don't expect them to catch someone who just stream snipes once...and I'm not really sure I care about someone who stream snipes once. But when Deezer gets matched up against Spanishiwa 6 times in a row it should be pretty easy to say "I think Deezer is stream sniping."
If neither player reports the other, why would there be a problem? I've seen players get repeat-matched too, and usually the players know each other and go "lol matchmaking is hilarious" and go on with their day. edit: also I don't think they should check into it every time someone gets reported for sniping, but if you have like 10-20 instances of a single player getting reported for it, and there's evidence, that should raise red flags. I edited in a solution. Grand Master players get a "report sniping" option. Blizzard only needs to check match history. What does this prove? That they played games against each other in a row? Who's fault is that? It would have to be both players as they both pressed the "find match" button. You obviously wouldn't get banned for being matched twice in a row. But bad stream snipers will get matched against a player 5 or 6 times in a row...honestly, did you read my post? people have played 6 matches in a row against the same person just by coincidence many times before....
Were they grandmaster? Would they streaming at the time? Would they have reported the other player? Are you just making that up?
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I don't see why people want Blizzard to do anything about stream sniping, it isn't their job to babysit everyone. If you wanna stream your matches, then that's your problem, not Blizzards.
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On January 21 2012 05:04 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 05:00 SnowSC2 wrote:On January 21 2012 04:58 Klondikebar wrote:On January 21 2012 04:56 willoc wrote:On January 21 2012 04:55 Klondikebar wrote:On January 21 2012 04:49 corpuscle wrote:On January 21 2012 04:44 Klondikebar wrote:
You could use those. But how about the VOD's where the matchmaker "randomly" matches a pro against a player 4 and 5 times in a row? Like I said, I don't expect them to catch someone who just stream snipes once...and I'm not really sure I care about someone who stream snipes once. But when Deezer gets matched up against Spanishiwa 6 times in a row it should be pretty easy to say "I think Deezer is stream sniping."
If neither player reports the other, why would there be a problem? I've seen players get repeat-matched too, and usually the players know each other and go "lol matchmaking is hilarious" and go on with their day. edit: also I don't think they should check into it every time someone gets reported for sniping, but if you have like 10-20 instances of a single player getting reported for it, and there's evidence, that should raise red flags. I edited in a solution. Grand Master players get a "report sniping" option. Blizzard only needs to check match history. What does this prove? That they played games against each other in a row? Who's fault is that? It would have to be both players as they both pressed the "find match" button. You obviously wouldn't get banned for being matched twice in a row. But bad stream snipers will get matched against a player 5 or 6 times in a row...honestly, did you read my post? people have played 6 matches in a row against the same person just by coincidence many times before.... Were they grandmaster? Would they streaming at the time? Would they have reported the other player? Are you just making that up?
Are you saying people who aren't in GM don't deserve this 'right' you are trying to impose? You're saying that it is fine that anyone below GM can be stream sniped. I don't think segregation is the right way to go.
Also, GM players are most likely to be matched with the same person as there is a smaller pool of players in their' 'skill gap' (just like bottom bronze players).
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On January 21 2012 05:04 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 05:00 SnowSC2 wrote:On January 21 2012 04:58 Klondikebar wrote:On January 21 2012 04:56 willoc wrote:On January 21 2012 04:55 Klondikebar wrote:On January 21 2012 04:49 corpuscle wrote:On January 21 2012 04:44 Klondikebar wrote:
You could use those. But how about the VOD's where the matchmaker "randomly" matches a pro against a player 4 and 5 times in a row? Like I said, I don't expect them to catch someone who just stream snipes once...and I'm not really sure I care about someone who stream snipes once. But when Deezer gets matched up against Spanishiwa 6 times in a row it should be pretty easy to say "I think Deezer is stream sniping."
If neither player reports the other, why would there be a problem? I've seen players get repeat-matched too, and usually the players know each other and go "lol matchmaking is hilarious" and go on with their day. edit: also I don't think they should check into it every time someone gets reported for sniping, but if you have like 10-20 instances of a single player getting reported for it, and there's evidence, that should raise red flags. I edited in a solution. Grand Master players get a "report sniping" option. Blizzard only needs to check match history. What does this prove? That they played games against each other in a row? Who's fault is that? It would have to be both players as they both pressed the "find match" button. You obviously wouldn't get banned for being matched twice in a row. But bad stream snipers will get matched against a player 5 or 6 times in a row...honestly, did you read my post? people have played 6 matches in a row against the same person just by coincidence many times before.... Were they grandmaster? Would they streaming at the time? Would they have reported the other player? Are you just making that up?
It even happens in diamond dude... Your making assumptions... If your high on the ladder theres a bigger chance of it happening regardless of their streaming or not, but anyone that plays a lot has probably had this happen to them to some extent
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On January 21 2012 05:07 willoc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 05:04 Klondikebar wrote:On January 21 2012 05:00 SnowSC2 wrote:On January 21 2012 04:58 Klondikebar wrote:On January 21 2012 04:56 willoc wrote:On January 21 2012 04:55 Klondikebar wrote:On January 21 2012 04:49 corpuscle wrote:On January 21 2012 04:44 Klondikebar wrote:
You could use those. But how about the VOD's where the matchmaker "randomly" matches a pro against a player 4 and 5 times in a row? Like I said, I don't expect them to catch someone who just stream snipes once...and I'm not really sure I care about someone who stream snipes once. But when Deezer gets matched up against Spanishiwa 6 times in a row it should be pretty easy to say "I think Deezer is stream sniping."
If neither player reports the other, why would there be a problem? I've seen players get repeat-matched too, and usually the players know each other and go "lol matchmaking is hilarious" and go on with their day. edit: also I don't think they should check into it every time someone gets reported for sniping, but if you have like 10-20 instances of a single player getting reported for it, and there's evidence, that should raise red flags. I edited in a solution. Grand Master players get a "report sniping" option. Blizzard only needs to check match history. What does this prove? That they played games against each other in a row? Who's fault is that? It would have to be both players as they both pressed the "find match" button. You obviously wouldn't get banned for being matched twice in a row. But bad stream snipers will get matched against a player 5 or 6 times in a row...honestly, did you read my post? people have played 6 matches in a row against the same person just by coincidence many times before.... Were they grandmaster? Would they streaming at the time? Would they have reported the other player? Are you just making that up? Are you saying people who aren't in GM don't deserve this 'right' you are trying to impose? You're saying that it is fine that anyone below GM can be stream sniped. I don't think segregation is the right way to go. Also, GM players are most likely to be matched with the same person as there is a smaller pool of players in their' 'skill gap' (just like bottom bronze players).
That's exactly what I'm saying. What non-grandmaster player derives a significant amount of income from streaming? The whole point of the policy is to make "professional gamer" a viable career between tournaments. If you're not a professional gamer, the policy isn't designed for you.
And I'm also quite certain that professional players are intelligent and mature enough to only report when they truly believe it''s stream sniping. They have to click that report button before we even start talking about Blizzard.
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EPT
