|
On January 21 2012 03:44 SCbiff wrote:
I have an idea, why not make it so that I can't be matched up with people on my ignore list?
It would be too easy to just put anyone who beats you on ignore and game the system that way. Doesn't really matter if you're in lower leagues, but imagine the advantage a lower GM player who blocks all the best pros would have. If you were an EU GM trying to rank up and you had the option of never having to face Stephano, wouldn't you take it?
|
On January 21 2012 03:44 SCbiff wrote:
I have an idea, why not make it so that I can't be matched up with people on my ignore list?
Stephano tears through EU ladder, winning everything. Top 100 players say screw that, I don't wanna lose any more points to him and puts him on ignore. Stephano is unable to find a decent opponent and may as well stop playing ladder.
|
pardon me, but I wonder if it is also legitimate (from Blizzard's point of view/regarding the user policy) to lose games on purpose to drop into lower leagues (troll games etc.)... Just interested, because I just lost again to a player who was in silver leauge, but apparently was high diamond in previous seasons.
|
We could all stream Brood War instead? Stream sniping isn't an issue with that game because they're not Blizzard ladders?
|
On January 21 2012 03:43 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 02:53 SnowSC2 wrote:On January 21 2012 02:44 Klondikebar wrote:Does anyone remember the whole "we're not including LAN" announcement Q&A/debacle? Blizzard said they were going to use Battle.net to help protect professional players from abuse. In other words, they put the onus on themselves to police esports by their own admission. Now they've taken the stance "oh, there's nothing we can do." Well, if Blizzard can't fulfill their promise to properly police their own game, they should quit shoving the "feature" (no LAN) down our throat that they touted as the tool to do it. They took away our LAN. It's perfectly reasonable for us to expect them to police stream sniping. Here's the Q&A itself: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/374722123+ Show Spoiler +With StarCraft II now on store shelves worldwide, we're excited to see the competitive tournament scene heating up. We'd like to remind everyone that a tournament license is required for any organizer interested in operating a StarCraft II event. Check below for more information on the process; we look forward to seeing your event! Q&A: Q: Why does Blizzard Entertainment require a license to run a tournament? A: There are several reasons why we require a license. The licensing system allows us to help monitor and promote ongoing events, and to encourage more players to participate in community tournaments. Additionally, the licensing system allows Blizzard to verify that our games are used properly and protects our intellectual property. Q: Are there any fees associated with acquiring a StarCraft II tournament license? A: Tournament licenses are generally free. To protect our players, we may require that organizers adhere to additional rules and regulations if the organizer charges entry fees and/or intends to pay out large cash prizes. Q: How do I get a StarCraft II tournament license? A: Fill out the tournament form located here. ( http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/community/esports/ ) Most general tournament requests will be approved instantly. Additional review time may be required before the approval of a license request, depending on the scope of the tournament and the number of incoming requests. We appreciate your patience! If you have additional questions, please email sc-tourneyinfo@blizzard.com. See you on Battle.net! I know that it's not 100% relevant to streaming and non-tournament activities, but I still believe the message is there. "We're forcing everything through Battle.net. That's a good thing because it means we can stop shenanigans." By the way, in the part that I bolded...they implied that they could, in fact, verify individual games. I dont remember anyone pointing out in the TOS that blizzard can ban anyone for whatever reason they wanted regardless if it was exterior to the game, I think this whole "blizzard owes us they need to police this" is the opinion of those that are either uninformed or just ignoring logic completely. I dont think blizzard should have to have even made THIS statement, i was under the impression that everyone KNEW why they weren't banning people. Sure we all rage and thats fine and all, but to think that this is within the scope of bannable offense is idiotic in my opinion. It's their game! Yes, they can ban people for whatever reason they want. You could easily fit "stream sniping" into any number of terms against the TOS. 1. Using a third party program to gain an advantage. 2. Cheating. 3. Harassment. 4. Fair Play Hell, they could just say "we don't think you're playing with spirit in which Starcraft 2 is meant to be played so we're banning you." The point of the statement was to say that they're not going to put stream sniping in any of those categories. I disagree with them because I believe it defies the logic that we were given when the game first released. I don't expect my opinion to matter so I'm not going to sit in this thread for too long. I'm just putting forward the position that: 1. It is, in fact, Blizzard's job to police things like this. 2. Their statement is both contrary to what they have told us before and rather uninformative as we already knew they weren't banning people for stream sniping.
This is something external to the game that the streamer exposes himself to. It is NOT blizzards job to police something like this. As they said it is out of blizzards scope. The game itself is completely irrelevant.
to clarify blizzard specifically state exactly this, that they cannot enforce any fair play policies if it is the players choice to expose himself to such a risk.
|
On January 21 2012 03:50 Creager wrote:
pardon me, but I wonder if it is also legitimate (from Blizzard's point of view/regarding the user policy) to lose games on purpose to drop into lower leagues (troll games etc.)... Just interested, because I just lost again to a player who was in silver leauge, but apparently was high diamond in previous seasons.
It is, you can report them.
Also, I like how I wasn't the only one who immediately thought "if you could avoid specific people on ladder, I would ignore the shit out of Stephano"
|
Stream sniping and stream cheating are two different things.
|
On January 21 2012 03:46 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 03:44 SCbiff wrote:
I have an idea, why not make it so that I can't be matched up with people on my ignore list? It would be too easy to just put anyone who beats you on ignore and game the system that way. Doesn't really matter if you're in lower leagues, but imagine the advantage a lower GM player who blocks all the best pros would have. If you were an EU GM trying to rank up and you had the option of never having to face Stephano, wouldn't you take it?
But you'd also not rank up as fast because, in general, the people who beat you are the people higher than you. Beating people at or near your level doesn't move you up the ladder very fast. In fact, as you can see by watch people play at the top of GM, when you are playing people around your level all the time, it's very hard to even hold your rank because each loss count way more than a win.
|
On January 21 2012 03:52 SnowSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 03:43 Klondikebar wrote:On January 21 2012 02:53 SnowSC2 wrote:On January 21 2012 02:44 Klondikebar wrote:Does anyone remember the whole "we're not including LAN" announcement Q&A/debacle? Blizzard said they were going to use Battle.net to help protect professional players from abuse. In other words, they put the onus on themselves to police esports by their own admission. Now they've taken the stance "oh, there's nothing we can do." Well, if Blizzard can't fulfill their promise to properly police their own game, they should quit shoving the "feature" (no LAN) down our throat that they touted as the tool to do it. They took away our LAN. It's perfectly reasonable for us to expect them to police stream sniping. Here's the Q&A itself: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/374722123+ Show Spoiler +With StarCraft II now on store shelves worldwide, we're excited to see the competitive tournament scene heating up. We'd like to remind everyone that a tournament license is required for any organizer interested in operating a StarCraft II event. Check below for more information on the process; we look forward to seeing your event! Q&A: Q: Why does Blizzard Entertainment require a license to run a tournament? A: There are several reasons why we require a license. The licensing system allows us to help monitor and promote ongoing events, and to encourage more players to participate in community tournaments. Additionally, the licensing system allows Blizzard to verify that our games are used properly and protects our intellectual property. Q: Are there any fees associated with acquiring a StarCraft II tournament license? A: Tournament licenses are generally free. To protect our players, we may require that organizers adhere to additional rules and regulations if the organizer charges entry fees and/or intends to pay out large cash prizes. Q: How do I get a StarCraft II tournament license? A: Fill out the tournament form located here. ( http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/community/esports/ ) Most general tournament requests will be approved instantly. Additional review time may be required before the approval of a license request, depending on the scope of the tournament and the number of incoming requests. We appreciate your patience! If you have additional questions, please email sc-tourneyinfo@blizzard.com. See you on Battle.net! I know that it's not 100% relevant to streaming and non-tournament activities, but I still believe the message is there. "We're forcing everything through Battle.net. That's a good thing because it means we can stop shenanigans." By the way, in the part that I bolded...they implied that they could, in fact, verify individual games. I dont remember anyone pointing out in the TOS that blizzard can ban anyone for whatever reason they wanted regardless if it was exterior to the game, I think this whole "blizzard owes us they need to police this" is the opinion of those that are either uninformed or just ignoring logic completely. I dont think blizzard should have to have even made THIS statement, i was under the impression that everyone KNEW why they weren't banning people. Sure we all rage and thats fine and all, but to think that this is within the scope of bannable offense is idiotic in my opinion. It's their game! Yes, they can ban people for whatever reason they want. You could easily fit "stream sniping" into any number of terms against the TOS. 1. Using a third party program to gain an advantage. 2. Cheating. 3. Harassment. 4. Fair Play Hell, they could just say "we don't think you're playing with spirit in which Starcraft 2 is meant to be played so we're banning you." The point of the statement was to say that they're not going to put stream sniping in any of those categories. I disagree with them because I believe it defies the logic that we were given when the game first released. I don't expect my opinion to matter so I'm not going to sit in this thread for too long. I'm just putting forward the position that: 1. It is, in fact, Blizzard's job to police things like this. 2. Their statement is both contrary to what they have told us before and rather uninformative as we already knew they weren't banning people for stream sniping. This is something external to the game that the streamer exposes himself to. It is NOT blizzards job to police something like this. As they said it is out of blizzards scope. The game itself is completely irrelevant.
I would argue that it is, in fact, in Blizzard's best interest to police these sorts of things (and well within their means to do so). In order for Starcraft to remain an esport players need to be able to make a living. Streaming is how they do that between tournaments. If Blizzard is truly interested in keeping "professional Starcraft 2 player" a legitimate and viable career, then they should be interested in streaming.
Blizzard has both the tools and the incentive to police streaming. The problem is that the incentives are long term. And everything that Acti-Blizz has done up and to this point has screamed "I only care about the short term."
And yes, Blizzard absolutely has the tools to enforce this. Perhaps they can't catch someone who stream snipes once (and I wouldn't expect them to be able to). But there are some high profile stream snipers that can EASILY be caught.
|
On January 21 2012 03:57 SCbiff wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 03:46 corpuscle wrote:On January 21 2012 03:44 SCbiff wrote:
I have an idea, why not make it so that I can't be matched up with people on my ignore list? It would be too easy to just put anyone who beats you on ignore and game the system that way. Doesn't really matter if you're in lower leagues, but imagine the advantage a lower GM player who blocks all the best pros would have. If you were an EU GM trying to rank up and you had the option of never having to face Stephano, wouldn't you take it? But you'd also not rank up as fast because, in general, the people who beat you are the people higher than you. Beating people at or near your level doesn't move you up the ladder very fast. In fact, as you can see by watch people play at the top of GM, when you are playing people around your level all the time, it's very hard to even hold your rank because each loss count way more than a win.
Okay, but what if I have terrible TvZ but am good at the other matchups, so I ignore all the good Zergs and just rank up by only playing Terrans, Protosses, and weaker Zergs? What if there's certain players who have a specific style that gives me a really hard time, but I can handle others of the same level?
My point is that if you give people the tools to potentially be abusive, they're going to abuse it.
|
On January 20 2012 13:50 SKTerran.117 wrote:
What else did people REALLY expect them to do?
This. I find it a little annoying that people actually expect Blizzard to enforce something like that.
The argument over on the Battle.net boards is that Blizzard's TOS permits them to ban any player for any reason so they should ban Deezer just because a bunch of people want them to, well that opens a can of worms whereby popular players like Destiny can just have anyone banned that he doesn't like.
i appreciate that Blizzard at least made it clear though.
|
On January 21 2012 04:05 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 03:52 SnowSC2 wrote:On January 21 2012 03:43 Klondikebar wrote:On January 21 2012 02:53 SnowSC2 wrote:On January 21 2012 02:44 Klondikebar wrote:Does anyone remember the whole "we're not including LAN" announcement Q&A/debacle? Blizzard said they were going to use Battle.net to help protect professional players from abuse. In other words, they put the onus on themselves to police esports by their own admission. Now they've taken the stance "oh, there's nothing we can do." Well, if Blizzard can't fulfill their promise to properly police their own game, they should quit shoving the "feature" (no LAN) down our throat that they touted as the tool to do it. They took away our LAN. It's perfectly reasonable for us to expect them to police stream sniping. Here's the Q&A itself: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/374722123+ Show Spoiler +With StarCraft II now on store shelves worldwide, we're excited to see the competitive tournament scene heating up. We'd like to remind everyone that a tournament license is required for any organizer interested in operating a StarCraft II event. Check below for more information on the process; we look forward to seeing your event! Q&A: Q: Why does Blizzard Entertainment require a license to run a tournament? A: There are several reasons why we require a license. The licensing system allows us to help monitor and promote ongoing events, and to encourage more players to participate in community tournaments. Additionally, the licensing system allows Blizzard to verify that our games are used properly and protects our intellectual property. Q: Are there any fees associated with acquiring a StarCraft II tournament license? A: Tournament licenses are generally free. To protect our players, we may require that organizers adhere to additional rules and regulations if the organizer charges entry fees and/or intends to pay out large cash prizes. Q: How do I get a StarCraft II tournament license? A: Fill out the tournament form located here. ( http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/community/esports/ ) Most general tournament requests will be approved instantly. Additional review time may be required before the approval of a license request, depending on the scope of the tournament and the number of incoming requests. We appreciate your patience! If you have additional questions, please email sc-tourneyinfo@blizzard.com. See you on Battle.net! I know that it's not 100% relevant to streaming and non-tournament activities, but I still believe the message is there. "We're forcing everything through Battle.net. That's a good thing because it means we can stop shenanigans." By the way, in the part that I bolded...they implied that they could, in fact, verify individual games. I dont remember anyone pointing out in the TOS that blizzard can ban anyone for whatever reason they wanted regardless if it was exterior to the game, I think this whole "blizzard owes us they need to police this" is the opinion of those that are either uninformed or just ignoring logic completely. I dont think blizzard should have to have even made THIS statement, i was under the impression that everyone KNEW why they weren't banning people. Sure we all rage and thats fine and all, but to think that this is within the scope of bannable offense is idiotic in my opinion. It's their game! Yes, they can ban people for whatever reason they want. You could easily fit "stream sniping" into any number of terms against the TOS. 1. Using a third party program to gain an advantage. 2. Cheating. 3. Harassment. 4. Fair Play Hell, they could just say "we don't think you're playing with spirit in which Starcraft 2 is meant to be played so we're banning you." The point of the statement was to say that they're not going to put stream sniping in any of those categories. I disagree with them because I believe it defies the logic that we were given when the game first released. I don't expect my opinion to matter so I'm not going to sit in this thread for too long. I'm just putting forward the position that: 1. It is, in fact, Blizzard's job to police things like this. 2. Their statement is both contrary to what they have told us before and rather uninformative as we already knew they weren't banning people for stream sniping. This is something external to the game that the streamer exposes himself to. It is NOT blizzards job to police something like this. As they said it is out of blizzards scope. The game itself is completely irrelevant. I would argue that it is, in fact, in Blizzard's best interest to police these sorts of things (and well within their means to do so). In order for Starcraft to remain an esport players need to be able to make a living. Streaming is how they do that between tournaments. If Blizzard is truly interested in keeping "professional Starcraft 2 player" a legitimate and viable career, then they should be interested in streaming. Blizzard has both the tools and the incentive to police streaming. The problem is that the incentives are long term. And everything that Acti-Blizz has done up and to this point has screamed "I only care about the short term." And yes, Blizzard absolutely has the tools to enforce this. Perhaps they can't catch someone who stream snipes once (and I wouldn't expect them to be able to). But there are some high profile stream snipers that can EASILY be caught.
For me the whole issue is that i think it would cause a lot of problems to interfere with a risk that the streamers subjects themselves to, it would cause a shit-storm and as you said, it would be long term and i dont think blizzard would be interested in working anything out to fix the issue.
|
On January 21 2012 04:10 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 13:50 SKTerran.117 wrote:
What else did people REALLY expect them to do?
This. I find it a little annoying that people actually expect Blizzard to enforce something like that. The argument over on the Battle.net boards is that Blizzard's TOS permits them to ban any player for any reason so they should ban Deezer just because a bunch of people want them to, well that opens a can of worms whereby popular players like Destiny can just have anyone banned that he doesn't like. i appreciate that Blizzard at least made it clear though.
I don't think they should ban people just based on accusations or public outcry, but if you can make a case with compelling evidence, they should. Players like Deezer stream snipe and cheat and publicly admit to it, and they get away with it because Blizzard refuses to ban them anyway.
I understand that it's hard to find snipers and they don't have infinite resources, but if you can provide clear proof that abuse is happening, I don't see why they can't take a look at it and ban them. There aren't THAT many people getting stream sniped, it's really only a small pool of pro players. They wouldn't need to hire an entire investigative team or anything... hell, there's probably community members that would do it for them for free.
|
On January 21 2012 04:15 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 04:10 Vindicare605 wrote:On January 20 2012 13:50 SKTerran.117 wrote:
What else did people REALLY expect them to do?
This. I find it a little annoying that people actually expect Blizzard to enforce something like that. The argument over on the Battle.net boards is that Blizzard's TOS permits them to ban any player for any reason so they should ban Deezer just because a bunch of people want them to, well that opens a can of worms whereby popular players like Destiny can just have anyone banned that he doesn't like. i appreciate that Blizzard at least made it clear though. I don't think they should ban people just based on accusations or public outcry, but if you can make a case with compelling evidence, they should. Players like Deezer stream snipe and cheat and publicly admit to it, and they get away with it because Blizzard refuses to ban them anyway. I understand that it's hard to find snipers and they don't have infinite resources, but if you can provide clear proof that abuse is happening, I don't see why they can't take a look at it and ban them. There aren't THAT many people getting stream sniped, it's really only a small pool of pro players. They wouldn't need to hire an entire investigative team or anything... hell, there's probably community members that would do it for them for free.
No, he gets away with it because as Blizzard just said he isn't in violation of any rules.
Even though it's a jerk thing to do it's totally legal as far as the Terms of Service go.
|
On January 21 2012 04:05 Klondikebar wrote:
And yes, Blizzard absolutely has the tools to enforce this. Perhaps they can't catch someone who stream snipes once (and I wouldn't expect them to be able to). But there are some high profile stream snipers that can EASILY be caught.
Please elaborate on these "tools". I am guessing you don't have much knowledge in this area (computers or information technology) but I might be mistaken. If anyone knows of these magical "tools" please enlighten the rest of us.
|
On January 21 2012 04:17 willoc wrote:
Please elaborate on these "tools". I am guessing you don't have much knowledge in this area (computers or information technology) but I might be mistaken. If anyone knows of these magical "tools" please enlighten the rest of us.
Tools don't have to be software. They could have a staff member go through complaints, check match histories and case reports, and use their brain to make a judgment call.
On January 21 2012 04:17 Vindicare605 wrote:
No, he gets away with it because as Blizzard just said he isn't in violation of any rules.
Even though it's a jerk thing to do it's totally legal as far as the Terms of Service go.
He's not in violation of their rules, but they can change their rules at any time, and they can ban him even if he doesn't violate any existing rules. You could also make the case that it's harassment.
|
On January 21 2012 04:20 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 04:17 willoc wrote:
Please elaborate on these "tools". I am guessing you don't have much knowledge in this area (computers or information technology) but I might be mistaken. If anyone knows of these magical "tools" please enlighten the rest of us. Tools don't have to be software. They could have a staff member go through complaints, check match histories and case reports, and use their brain to make a judgment call. Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 04:17 Vindicare605 wrote:
No, he gets away with it because as Blizzard just said he isn't in violation of any rules.
Even though it's a jerk thing to do it's totally legal as far as the Terms of Service go. He's not in violation of their rules, but they can change their rules at any time, and they can ban him even if he doesn't violate any existing rules. You could also make the case that it's harassment.
And you can easily make the case that it ISN'T harassment.
No one is forcing Destiny to stream his matches and no one is forcing him to stream without a delay. It's totally within his power to solve his own problem without having to ban anyone, I don't think it'd be the end of the world for his viewers if they had to watch a delayed stream if they knew he was no longer going to be stream sniped because of it.
Every Korean stream that i watch has a heavy delay on it and it doesn't exactly demotivate me from watching it.
|
On January 21 2012 04:20 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 04:17 willoc wrote:
Please elaborate on these "tools". I am guessing you don't have much knowledge in this area (computers or information technology) but I might be mistaken. If anyone knows of these magical "tools" please enlighten the rest of us. Tools don't have to be software. They could have a staff member go through complaints, check match histories and case reports, and use their brain to make a judgment call.
Do you also want these staff members to watch the replays and find signs of "blind counters" (subjective proof)? I hope you understand that there is no objective way to prove they were watching the stream as well unless you have access to "stream sniper's" computer which Blizzard does not.
You see, when people investigate "vision hacks" there are tell-tale, objective signs you can point to such as the cheater selecting a building he does not have vision of. The cheater looking at "area of fog" can't even be admitted as evidence as it proves nothing except that their view was positioned there. These subjective proofs are only leads, not real proofs and once you start letting staff/admins/etc. make "judgement calls" you are opening a huge door to abuse and corruption (imagine pros being banned because someone "thought" they were stream sniping).
There is no way to prove these accusations of "stream sniping". It is all circumstantial. When you stream, you take the risk of someone playing you and watching the stream. A parallel of this can be seen in "live" tournament's difficulty in controlling people watching the tournament in real time and passing the information to the players.
|
I'm not sure how people can say that stream snipers like Deezer aren't harassing people. You can make the case that syncing your queues for 5 games in a row isn't harassment, and you'd probably be right.
Spamming match requests, though, for no purpose other than to be annoying?
Insulting them constantly during games?
Deezer's harassment is well documented, and is available on every NA streamers channels.
|
On January 21 2012 04:17 willoc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 04:05 Klondikebar wrote:
And yes, Blizzard absolutely has the tools to enforce this. Perhaps they can't catch someone who stream snipes once (and I wouldn't expect them to be able to). But there are some high profile stream snipers that can EASILY be caught.
Please elaborate on these "tools". I am guessing you don't have much knowledge in this area (computers or information technology) but I might be mistaken. If anyone knows of these magical "tools" please enlighten the rest of us.
How about the mountains of VOD's where Deezer and CombatEx are blatantly stream sniping? It's not rocket science to figure out that those guys stream snipe. Basically, a little common sense would go a long way on this issue.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
