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By swallowing evil words unsaid, no one has ever harmed his stomach. ~Winston Churchill |
On January 19 2012 03:48 Blennd wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 03:46 xBillehx wrote:On January 19 2012 03:41 Melchior wrote:On January 19 2012 03:38 Shiori wrote:On January 19 2012 03:38 Melchior wrote:On January 19 2012 03:36 Shiori wrote:On January 19 2012 03:32 Melchior wrote:On January 19 2012 03:24 Shiori wrote:
Alive is a nice guy, but I'm really getting sick of these foreign teams thinking that just because they have money they can somehow void contracts or pretend they don't exist. Alive was, as it seems, manipulated by promises from a company that knew full-well it was going to breach a contract. This is precisely why we need some sort of eSports governing body: so that these sorts of things can be centralized in one place, and so everyone knows who is contracted and for how long. Then, when a team like Fnatic starts doing this sort of thing, they can be reprimanded by said official organization. There's absolutely nothing wrong with exercising the exit clause of a contract (which any contract worth its salt should have). aLive pays the early-termination fee, breaks the contract, and then he's perfectly free to join any team he wants. Similarly, there is nothing wrong with any organization approaching someone and saying "Hey, if you're ever thinking about a change of scenery, give us a call". aLive states in his interview that he was already planning on leaving before Fnatic contacted him, Coach Lee just wishes he could stop his players from leaving. There's absolutely no way TSL would have the money to enforce a non-compete agreement in the contract, either. Except this isn't what happened. I'm not sure why everyone seems to believe the back-pedaling of large organizations after the fact. These kind of accidents happen on far too regular of a basis to be considered truly accidental. Fnatic most likely knew about Alive's contract and decided it didn't matter; that, or they don't know how contracts work (or at least the person contacting Alive didn't). Here's why: paying the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone. At the very least, stating that you intend to pay the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone. Show me where Fnatic has announced they're signing aLive. Are you joking? Not here: http://fnatic.com/players/SC2/Not here: http://fnatic.com/news/9475/Fnatic-s-stance-on-aLive-amp-TSL.htmlThe only source for Fnatic's alleged signing of aLive I've been able to find is Coach Lee's own statement. Or the interview in the OP here where aLive clearly believes he's being signed by Fnatic and that it motivated his decision to break the contract with TSL. Huh? You mean the interview where he clearly states that there is a chance that he won't get signed by Fnatic after all this controversy started over him?
I fixed that for you since you seem to have misunderstood the statement.
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On January 19 2012 03:53 SC2Chaos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 03:36 Shiori wrote:On January 19 2012 03:32 Melchior wrote:On January 19 2012 03:24 Shiori wrote:
Alive is a nice guy, but I'm really getting sick of these foreign teams thinking that just because they have money they can somehow void contracts or pretend they don't exist. Alive was, as it seems, manipulated by promises from a company that knew full-well it was going to breach a contract. This is precisely why we need some sort of eSports governing body: so that these sorts of things can be centralized in one place, and so everyone knows who is contracted and for how long. Then, when a team like Fnatic starts doing this sort of thing, they can be reprimanded by said official organization. There's absolutely nothing wrong with exercising the exit clause of a contract (which any contract worth its salt should have). aLive pays the early-termination fee, breaks the contract, and then he's perfectly free to join any team he wants. Similarly, there is nothing wrong with any organization approaching someone and saying "Hey, if you're ever thinking about a change of scenery, give us a call". aLive states in his interview that he was already planning on leaving before Fnatic contacted him, Coach Lee just wishes he could stop his players from leaving. There's absolutely no way TSL would have the money to enforce a non-compete agreement in the contract, either. Except this isn't what happened. I'm not sure why everyone seems to believe the back-pedaling of large organizations after the fact. These kind of accidents happen on far too regular of a basis to be considered truly accidental. Fnatic most likely knew about Alive's contract and decided it didn't matter; that, or they don't know how contracts work (or at least the person contacting Alive didn't). Here's why: paying the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone. At the very least, stating that you intend to pay the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone. From here, it turns into two scenarios: 1) Fnatic is not actually respectful of contracts (worst case scenario) 2) Fnatic has a low standard of professionalism/a lack of protocol (best case) Take your pick. In the interview aLive says TSL players aren't getting paid and the contracts they have were for show. How can TSL get upset when they set themselves up to be a feeder program for any team who puts a $ investment into their players?
I don't see that..
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On January 19 2012 03:54 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 03:51 Melchior wrote:On January 19 2012 03:47 Shiori wrote:On January 19 2012 03:46 xBillehx wrote:On January 19 2012 03:41 Melchior wrote:On January 19 2012 03:38 Shiori wrote:On January 19 2012 03:38 Melchior wrote:On January 19 2012 03:36 Shiori wrote:On January 19 2012 03:32 Melchior wrote:On January 19 2012 03:24 Shiori wrote:
Alive is a nice guy, but I'm really getting sick of these foreign teams thinking that just because they have money they can somehow void contracts or pretend they don't exist. Alive was, as it seems, manipulated by promises from a company that knew full-well it was going to breach a contract. This is precisely why we need some sort of eSports governing body: so that these sorts of things can be centralized in one place, and so everyone knows who is contracted and for how long. Then, when a team like Fnatic starts doing this sort of thing, they can be reprimanded by said official organization. There's absolutely nothing wrong with exercising the exit clause of a contract (which any contract worth its salt should have). aLive pays the early-termination fee, breaks the contract, and then he's perfectly free to join any team he wants. Similarly, there is nothing wrong with any organization approaching someone and saying "Hey, if you're ever thinking about a change of scenery, give us a call". aLive states in his interview that he was already planning on leaving before Fnatic contacted him, Coach Lee just wishes he could stop his players from leaving. There's absolutely no way TSL would have the money to enforce a non-compete agreement in the contract, either. Except this isn't what happened. I'm not sure why everyone seems to believe the back-pedaling of large organizations after the fact. These kind of accidents happen on far too regular of a basis to be considered truly accidental. Fnatic most likely knew about Alive's contract and decided it didn't matter; that, or they don't know how contracts work (or at least the person contacting Alive didn't). Here's why: paying the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone. At the very least, stating that you intend to pay the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone. Show me where Fnatic has announced they're signing aLive. Are you joking? Not here: http://fnatic.com/players/SC2/Not here: http://fnatic.com/news/9475/Fnatic-s-stance-on-aLive-amp-TSL.htmlThe only source for Fnatic's alleged signing of aLive I've been able to find is Coach Lee's own statement. Or the interview in the OP here where aLive clearly believes he's being signed by Fnatic and that it motivated his decision to break the contract with TSL. This. I mean, if you want to buy into Fnatic's assertion that they're totally innocent in this and that Alive just magically got the idea of being signed by Fnatic, be my guest, but I think everyone knows that's pretty foolish. Oh, I won't deny there were talks, but talk is talk, and there's nothing wrong with talking about potential opportunities. However, the interview also says aLive was looking to get out of the team before being approached by Fnatic. Regardless, his motivation for terminating the contract early has no effect on its validity. He has not yet been signed by Fnatic. He plans on paying the early termination fee and leaving TSL. What's the problem? Depends on how "potential" the opportunities were. If the talks were "look, if you leave TSL, you can join Fnatic" kind of talks, then it's basically a verbal contract.
In his interview he states he already told Coach Lee he wanted to leave back when JYP did. I don't understand all the controversy here. aLive wants out of TSL and is willing to buy out his contract to do so. Fnatic are interested in signing him WHEN HIS OBLIGATIONS WITH TSL ARE OVER. There is nothing shady about any of this, people are just stirring up drama for nothing.
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No one is blameless here, but I believe Coach Lee is at fault for how much of a show this has become.
If Coach Lee hadn't been snooping the skype messages of aLive like he was an enacted SOPA, we wouldn't have an issue. aLive would've left in July with no huff and joined Fnatic...whom I honestly believe isn't the correct team for aLive anyway. I think Quantic would be the best place for him to go since they are partnered with Startale. Both teams have scary players on them and it would allow for aLive to get decent practice with both foreigners like NaNiwa, SaSe and Destiny and Koreans like July, RainBOw, Squirtle and Bomber. Fnatic really only has the notable Rain and yah, I guess Moon. If Fnatic still had TT1, KawaiiRice, Gretorp and Sen, I might say aLive should go there.
Honestly I don't really understand why Korean players are going to foreign teams anyways. The Korean teams are by far the most successful. But I guess it's highly competitive and you are shadowed constantly by someone better than you. aLive would definitely be shadowed on team IM as well as SlayerS.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On January 19 2012 03:02 D_K_night wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 02:13 Pandemona wrote:On January 19 2012 02:11 Kazeyonoma wrote:
i love how everyone here is already attacking coach lee about 'illegally recording Alive's computer"
we don't know how he obtained the skype conversation logs. maybe alive talked to another 'friend' in TSL and that player felt the need to inform coach lee, who then looked at the PC to see if it was true. Maybe another player grabbed the file and gave it to coach Lee.
the fact that everyone automatically assumes coach Lee is 'creepy weirdo' 'hacking' alive's computer is already bullshit.
How do we even know it was Alive's computer? Korean progamer houses rotate PCs based ont raining schedule, it's 100% possible, someone else, even coach lee himself, stumbled across the skype log or noticed some fishy conversations going on when they rotated computers.
HEY GUYS. COACH LEE IN NEWS, HE MUST BE BAD GUY AMIRITE? Lol i didnt accuse him of hacking but in general "well how did he get that then" it comes under "hacking" kinda. And re read your point back.... "even coach lee himself, stumbled acress the skype log or noticed some fishy conversations going on" hmm so you stumble across someones chat logs on skype xD find that hard to belive sir! Anyway like someone from france said, in Europe its illegal to check on work members emails let alone skypes/msn's illegal in france does not make it illegal everywhere else in the world. Again - work computer - that's property of the company, not you.
What has property of the work got to do with YOUR personal account on a social program? He went on the computer to find purposly or maybe not. Maybe he went on it casually, but still how do u end up in Skype chat logs for aLive one of your players who you think maybe acting fishy or said he wanted to leaeve previous day?
Not just in france i said E U R O P E, europes pretty big yo!
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Do most coaches spy on their players?
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On January 19 2012 03:54 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 03:51 Melchior wrote:On January 19 2012 03:47 Shiori wrote:On January 19 2012 03:46 xBillehx wrote:On January 19 2012 03:41 Melchior wrote:On January 19 2012 03:38 Shiori wrote:On January 19 2012 03:38 Melchior wrote:On January 19 2012 03:36 Shiori wrote:On January 19 2012 03:32 Melchior wrote:On January 19 2012 03:24 Shiori wrote:
Alive is a nice guy, but I'm really getting sick of these foreign teams thinking that just because they have money they can somehow void contracts or pretend they don't exist. Alive was, as it seems, manipulated by promises from a company that knew full-well it was going to breach a contract. This is precisely why we need some sort of eSports governing body: so that these sorts of things can be centralized in one place, and so everyone knows who is contracted and for how long. Then, when a team like Fnatic starts doing this sort of thing, they can be reprimanded by said official organization. There's absolutely nothing wrong with exercising the exit clause of a contract (which any contract worth its salt should have). aLive pays the early-termination fee, breaks the contract, and then he's perfectly free to join any team he wants. Similarly, there is nothing wrong with any organization approaching someone and saying "Hey, if you're ever thinking about a change of scenery, give us a call". aLive states in his interview that he was already planning on leaving before Fnatic contacted him, Coach Lee just wishes he could stop his players from leaving. There's absolutely no way TSL would have the money to enforce a non-compete agreement in the contract, either. Except this isn't what happened. I'm not sure why everyone seems to believe the back-pedaling of large organizations after the fact. These kind of accidents happen on far too regular of a basis to be considered truly accidental. Fnatic most likely knew about Alive's contract and decided it didn't matter; that, or they don't know how contracts work (or at least the person contacting Alive didn't). Here's why: paying the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone. At the very least, stating that you intend to pay the exit fee happens before you announce you're signing someone. Show me where Fnatic has announced they're signing aLive. Are you joking? Not here: http://fnatic.com/players/SC2/Not here: http://fnatic.com/news/9475/Fnatic-s-stance-on-aLive-amp-TSL.htmlThe only source for Fnatic's alleged signing of aLive I've been able to find is Coach Lee's own statement. Or the interview in the OP here where aLive clearly believes he's being signed by Fnatic and that it motivated his decision to break the contract with TSL. This. I mean, if you want to buy into Fnatic's assertion that they're totally innocent in this and that Alive just magically got the idea of being signed by Fnatic, be my guest, but I think everyone knows that's pretty foolish. Oh, I won't deny there were talks, but talk is talk, and there's nothing wrong with talking about potential opportunities. However, the interview also says aLive was looking to get out of the team before being approached by Fnatic. Regardless, his motivation for terminating the contract early has no effect on its validity. He has not yet been signed by Fnatic. He plans on paying the early termination fee and leaving TSL. What's the problem? Depends on how "potential" the opportunities were. If the talks were "look, if you leave TSL, you can join Fnatic" kind of talks, then it's basically a verbal contract.
I guess we'll have to wait and find out what the talks entailed, then. As I've said before, though, the fact that aLive wanted out of TSL before the talks with Fnatic significantly weaken the arguments for player poaching.
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On January 19 2012 03:50 raga4ka wrote:
Coach Lee should make this penalty fee bigger in the future . Then players will think twice , about trying to pull a fast one over him . Even if that wasn't Fnatic or aLive's intentions they still did wrong and props to Coach Lee for catching them . Whenever he should have made it public or not it's his decision if he feels that he is being bamboozled and knows whats up . Most of the people don't seem to care about the coaches , because they don't entertain them ... Thats why i think Kespa should take over SC2 in korea , as stupid as some of their decision were they are doing a great job at keeping the BW scene as proffesional as it should be .
If he keeps his players happy, he won't have to deal with this in the future. Contracts are only paper and though they can be enforced, it is normally not worth it. Even so, do you think Alex Garfield of EG doesn't expect other teams to try and sign Idra or Huk? He does and he has such a good relationship with them that Idra commonly brings him the offers so they can laugh about it(see in intervie with DJ wheat after the Puma event). Having them sign contracts does not mean he has them locked in for a full year and doesn't need to do anything. From reports, a lot of players have left the team and we have to wonder why. I don't think it because they have a bad cook...
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
Whatever happened, Fnatic definitely made contact with Alive while he was still under contract with TSL. It doesn't matter whether Alive initiated contact or not. They talked to him and clearly showed enough interest to warrant Alive leaving TSL. If they discussed anything concerning them acquiring him, they should've made sure to contact TSL and coach Lee. If they sign him now for free, then that's poaching. I hope they pay TSL compensation if they decide to go through with signing him. If they decide to halt their interest in Alive, then I guess that's kind of messed up too.
This is why you do things through proper channels. It avoids all this unnecessary and unhealthy drama. If Alive asked Fnatic if they were interest in signing him, and they said yes, Fnatic then should've told TSL and coach Lee that he approached first and they were interested. Then they could iron out all the appropriate details like compensation. This whole affair just reeks of amateurish and back alley business practices.
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On January 19 2012 03:50 raga4ka wrote:
Coach Lee should make this penalty fee bigger in the future . Then players and other will think twice , about trying to pull a fast one over him . Even if that wasn't Fnatic or aLive's intentions they still did wrong and props to Coach Lee for catching them . Whenever he should have made it public or not it's his decision if he feels that he is being bamboozled and knows whats up , i would bad mounth the other team that isn't respecting me as a manager also . Most of the people don't seem to care about the coaches , because they don't entertain them ... Thats why i think Kespa should take over SC2 in korea , as stupid as some of their decision were they are doing a great job at keeping the BW scene as proffesional as it should be .
Dear lord no. Do not want kespa at all.
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Since everyone wants to play e-lawyer ("IN AMERICA IT'S LEGAL SO IT'S FINE" "BUT IN EUROPE IT'S ILLEGAL SO IT'S NOT FINE", seriously could you not just Google without assuming your own laws apply everywhere?) without actually doing any proper research, I'm going to quote myself from the other thread:
After reading up quite a bit, whilst there's no specific laws regarding it it seems it could possibly break a few laws:
http://www.mcafee.com/us/regulations/apac/republic-of-korea.aspx
Unless notice and express consent are obtained from the employees, monitoring of employee emails is likely to be viewed as a violation of Article 48 of APICNU. Even if the computers are owned by the employer, without notice and consent the employer is likely to be deemed to have gone beyond the permitted access right and to be in violation of Article 48.
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Some of the posts in this thread are causing my brain to implode. >.<
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Coach Lee will always be some sort of control freak drama queen. Going through the guy's Skype messages? Really? He should stop considering going to court with this to collect the fee, there was no negotiation of a contract, much less a signed one, but he knowingly breached aLive's privacy. I'm sure the court would love that, lol. aLive should just use the usual way of leaving with notice and then make the switch to Fnatic, saves him 10m Won, Probably more than a month's salary at Fnatic (usually the notice has to be handed in 4-5 weeks before leaving a working contract, at least in western countries).
Would have been better by Fnatic to approach Lee directly but hearing all this stuff I kinda understand why they did it...the other guys leaving doesn't make a good argument for TSL's Lee^^
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Don't you have to find a new job and get accepted before you quit your current job? What is wrong with what Alive is doing?
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On January 19 2012 03:54 Ornithorynquez wrote:Show nested quote +After that, Coach Lee said he wanted to talk to me. He had printed out my conversation with the Fnatic manager. That skype conversation was logged on my computer, and I’m curious as to how he got access to it. Wow, i just can't imagine how paranoïd Coach Lee must be after reading this, that's insane. Besides that I'm asking myself why so many players want to leave TSL, every player gave a fairly good reason, but the malaise seems to be much deeper than that, and nobody wants let the cat out of the bag. Am I wrong ? Because i read in many posts that the team isn't struggling in term of sponsors (unlike Prime for ex.), they give salaries, and basically money doesnt seems to be a major issue.
If he keeps his players happy, he won't have to deal with this in the future. Contracts are only paper and though they can be enforced, it is normally not worth it. Even so, do you think Alex Garfield of EG doesn't expect other teams to try and sign Idra or Huk? He does and he has such a good relationship with them that Idra commonly brings him the offers so they can laugh about it(see in intervie with DJ wheat after the Puma event). Having them sign contracts does not mean he has them locked in for a full year and doesn't need to do anything. From reports, a lot of players have left the team and we have to wonder why. I don't think it because they have a bad cook...
I am having a guess that the practice regime is to strict for them to handle and they don't approve of the practise environment as he is a former BW coach . His methods produce good players even if they end up leaving the team and thats all i am interested in . It feels like MBC game already  . Hyun should be more loyal thought as he already knows what he is dealing with .
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On January 19 2012 04:01 Telcontar wrote:
Whatever happened, Fnatic definitely made contact with Alive while he was still under contract with TSL. It doesn't matter whether Alive initiated contact or not. They talked to him and clearly showed enough interest to warrant Alive leaving TSL. If they discussed anything concerning them acquiring him, they should've made sure to contact TSL and coach Lee. If they sign him now for free, then that's poaching. I hope they pay TSL compensation if they decide to go through with signing him. If they decide to halt their interest in Alive, then I guess that's kind of messed up too.
This is why you do things through proper channels. It avoids all this unnecessary and unhealthy drama. If Alive asked Fnatic if they were interest in signing him, and they said yes, Fnatic then should've told TSL and coach Lee that he approached first and they were interested. Then they could iron out all the appropriate details like compensation.
Fnatic's translator, who happened to also be aLive's friend, talks about being signed by Fnatic. I do not know if they directly employee him or if he is just the translator they normally hire, but he is not the head of team. That is not reaching out in any terms, legal or otherwise. No offer was made(the first part of a contract) and I don't think the translator could have made the offer by himself. If the translator isn't employeed directly by Fnatic, it is just two friends talking about what team aLive will go to when he leaves.
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On January 19 2012 04:07 ppshchik wrote:
Don't you have to find a new job and get accepted before you quit your current job? What is wrong with what Alive is doing?
People seem to think that when you're under a contract you're not allowed to explore your options.
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The funniest thing about the whole thing is that reddit is down, the day with the most drama in months, and its down. lol
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On January 19 2012 04:07 ppshchik wrote:
Don't you have to find a new job and get accepted before you quit your current job? What is wrong with what Alive is doing?
Nothings wrong with it as long as he pays the exit fees, which he plans on doing. I just hope Fnatic chooses to actually sign him since they sort of swayed his decision to break the contract to join them rather than wait until he was a free player.
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There was no breach of contract.
aLive was unprofessional for talking to Fnatic without talking to Lee first, Fnatic was unprofessional for encouraging this knowing he was under contract, Lee is unprofessional for running to the media with false information after they had apparently come to an agreement about a transfer fee. Lee was also a little shady for reading aLive's Skype conversation, but that's almost beside the point.
Good on aLive for taking advantage of the situation as best he can; he's out of TSL-- which is what he seems to have mainly wanted -- and is leveraging pressure on Fnatic to sign him since they do share part of the blame. I don't even know if Lee can sue aLive for this since, again, there was no technical breach of contract, but if he does, then Fnatic and aLive should split the cost.
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EPT
