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On January 13 2012 14:29 BLacKOuTz wrote:
@Bagration Since I have starting playing seriously I have spent nearly every second of free time playing 1v1s.
@Kharnage I have won more than Ive lost. Since 5 weeks ago it is about 115-100 roughly. And I have stuided, have a library of builds, know every counter to everything, how to do it, how to macro, all that. I guess I know it all i just cant execute well. Thats my best guess.
you absolutely have 0 idea what you're doing, there's just no other way you'd be losing. i'm not sure you know common reads or are even using proper builds... maybe you are. if you are, just practice your handspeed/APM. sc2 requires you to be VERY fast.
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You probably just can't macro, there's no need for strategy/builds/control in gold etc
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On January 14 2012 04:10 Cosmology wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 04:05 Frozne wrote:On January 14 2012 03:56 Cosmology wrote:On January 14 2012 01:23 ishyishy wrote:You should be a LOT higher than gold. In my first 3 weeks of playing (maybe 1-2 hours per day) I got to diamond top 8. The last RTS I played was Red Alert 2 when that first came out! lol Unless you are just starting or dont play a lot, I dont see any reason why anyone would be below diamond by now. This is the kind of game that is easy to play, but hard to master. Being diamond is not mastering the game  Since then, I've only played 1-2 games a day (if that) and im mid-masters. Calling bullshit here, yep, major bullshit. Also, this is the exact opposite type of game than what you described, well almost. Starcraft is the HARDEST game to learn hands down, hardest game to get good at, hands down and hardest game to master, hands down. What game is harder to learn than Starcraft 2 besides Starcraft BW? Also, I know for a fact you did not make it to diamond or masters in that time frame, playing that much. I'd have to agree with him too. Basically as soon as I play someone vastly better than me, I get to there level in almost no time. Then it's just smoothing the sharp edges. Whenever I play my friend Bubba, within 10 games I'm back to his level. I get the concepts of the game, I don't have to grind games to understand the meta game switch. I either build X unit, or Y unit, and go from there. I barely play more than 5 games a week and I stay mid to high masters with no effort. It's been like that since beta 1. + Show Spoiler +
I also call bullshit here, this just isn't possible, you won't have the mechanics needed and unless you do a lot of spectating you won't have the game knowledge neccessary or even the skills to hold certain pushes off that require good micro.
i'll be happy to play you, I don't play much but if you only play that much I am pretty sure I can beat you even if I am rusty.
I think you're giving sc2 too much credit. Yes it's a hard game to master but these guys are mid master. To get to that level do not take as much as you seem to think.
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On January 14 2012 04:19 discobaas wrote:
You probably just can't macro, there's no need for strategy/builds/control in gold etc
The last thing I'd ever do in gold is try and 4 gate or all in someone. Waste of time. This guy is completely right. You'll be at masters in no time with just practicing making yourself a wall of blades opponents stab themself to death on =p
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i played since the beta, but maybe only a couple games a month sometimes, sometimes many a week
but since i played since the beta id say i have a huge advantage and thats probably part of why im ranked so high. ive always been in the highest league ever since i started playing and i dont even try to get there i just play naturally and barely try
i think some people are just gifted with natural talent. if idra quit for 5months and started playing again just his mechanics alone would get him to masters. some people just have way better mechanics that they were born with.
so people who are saying it was easy for them to get to diamond/masters and they did it in a couple weeks, i believe them because some people just unfairly have superior mechanics that they were born with
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Ive heard that by 2000 wins you should be masters. Your right on track so far. Keep going 
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On January 14 2012 05:09 roymarthyup wrote:
i played since the beta, but maybe only a couple games a month sometimes, sometimes many a week
but since i played since the beta id say i have a huge advantage and thats probably part of why im ranked so high. ive always been in the highest league ever since i started playing and i dont even try to get there i just play naturally and barely try
i think some people are just gifted with natural talent. if idra quit for 5months and started playing again just his mechanics alone would get him to masters. some people just have way better mechanics that they were born with.
so people who are saying it was easy for them to get to diamond/masters and they did it in a couple weeks, i believe them because some people just unfairly have superior mechanics that they were born with
Some people are good at this game, some aren't. I got to diamond back in season 2 within 400 games played, and most of it was just me "winging it" or rolling random for the lulz.
Truthfully, if you're actually trying to improve, you shouldn't be about even in wins vs your peers. If you're still about even in w/l (or not playing people in higher leagues than you) it's because you aren't improving.
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It really depends on how quick you learn things and get accustomed to them in my opinion. I used to be a pro CoD player on console, until I didn't have fun with the game anymore so I quit and found SC2  . (I believe I started playing SC2 around January 2011.) I learn things really quickly, and am very dedicated, (which you need in SC2 to get better, you can't play a game a day and expect to be good) so I found myself in masters relatively quickly, which was around 3 months of playing. I am still in high school, so when I came home I did homework and then just grinded SC2 games. Now I have a MMR of top 100 GM :D. In my experience, it all came down to dedication and amount you play when it comes to getting better. The more you play and learn from experience, the better you get.
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If you want a reference,
I switched from a broodwar UMS map only background and made the following leagues after playing X amount of 1v1s on the ladder
Platinum: 5
Diamond: 84
Masters: 150-170 ish
Edit: O_o although I may be an anomaly, it looks like most people are taking way more games on 1v1 ladder to get into masters T_T.
That being said, I also played a bunch of team games on ladder for fun, which definitely helped.
If you have a strong broodwar 1v1 background and are actually practicing efficiently, the progression should be relatively fast imo.
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On January 14 2012 01:23 ishyishy wrote:You should be a LOT higher than gold. In my first 3 weeks of playing (maybe 1-2 hours per day) I got to diamond top 8. The last RTS I played was Red Alert 2 when that first came out! lol Unless you are just starting or dont play a lot, I dont see any reason why anyone would be below diamond by now. This is the kind of game that is easy to play, but hard to master. Being diamond is not mastering the game Since then, I've only played 1-2 games a day (if that) and im mid-masters.
ook,I didnt say I was good because of what league I am in. I just have a hard time understanding why people cannot get past a lower-ish league. Like, why are people stuck in silver or gold for months on end? If you are actually playing the game, i find that to be hard to believe.
Also, I cant PROVE to anyone how fast I got to diamond and masters unless I take a shit ton of screen shots, and I have no reason to force people to believe me lol. I just shared my own experience, whether or not you believe me is up to you, and either way it doesnt matter to me. Saying that im lying wont hurt my feelings lol.
You would be surprised how far 4 gate can take you on the NA ladder
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On January 14 2012 05:34 Siphonn wrote:It really depends on how quick you learn things and get accustomed to them in my opinion. I used to be a pro CoD player on console, until I didn't have fun with the game anymore so I quit and found SC2 . (I believe I started playing SC2 around January 2011.) I learn things really quickly, and am very dedicated, (which you need in SC2 to get better, you can't play a game a day and expect to be good) so I found myself in masters relatively quickly, which was around 3 months of playing. I am still in high school, so when I came home I did homework and then just grinded SC2 games. Now I have a MMR of top 100 GM :D. In my experience, it all came down to dedication and amount you play when it comes to getting better. The more you play and learn from experience, the better you get.
Im guessing ur the guy who plays with Rambo, Striker, Breezy, etc? lol. But yea i get what ur saying.
Also i have played 9 1v1s today and won 6 of them, 2 of the losses were 7 pools... So i think from this thread and practicing a bit with people helping me in my chat my mistakes are becoming more clear and i think ill be able to quickly fix them seeing as how Im a pretty fast learner when it comes to competitive games. I was just focusing on the wrong things to try and get better. Thanks to all who watched my stream today and helped <3
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On January 14 2012 04:01 Frozne wrote:
Hate to say it but this game really is a game of intellect. You are directly pitting your intelligence and problem solving against other players. There are a lot of players that have a knack for it. Others do not. Ask anyone on here with 5+ real life friends that play starcraft. The ones that are good also happen to be the ones that seem to be the most intelligent. My friends that are tards just constantly get overwhelmed in real life, and in game by simple concepts.
I agree. I met only one person in real life who has played starcraft as well. He was a huge fucking retard and was of course the worst player ive ever seen. My friend from high school who was pretty smart is almost the exact same mmr as me in master league.
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On January 13 2012 14:42 BLacKOuTz wrote:
I think alot of my problem is I know the meta game for high levels of play but as Idra has said before, sometimes people win just because they accidently did something amazing that NO ONE ever does. Like losing to 6 rax all ins on Tal darim when they dont scout and guess right first try, and not scouting a 4 gate and building a marauder only army and rolling through it. (Both happened today). No one good would ever build 10 marauders and nothing else without scouting.
Yes, your problem is that you know the GM meta game all too well.
This is why you are in Gold league.
Not because you suck.
Jesus H, kid, get off your high horse and stop pretending to be better than you actually are.
No, its not _normal_ to be in Gold after 170 (consecutive) wins.Not for someone whose goal is to climb up the ranks at least.
My advice would be to stop watching TheoryCraftCentral9 and direct your attention to a pro gamer's stream where you should try picking up some builds and timings and a certain style of play in general.
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On January 14 2012 03:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 23:00 tUUTZ wrote:
Everyone should be in Master League after playing for a year or so. o.O By definition that's impossible.
it makes sense if he fixes it to say Everyone has the opportunity to be in masters league with proper practice and training after a year or so
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considering that you've started playing seriously 5-6 weeks ago, I'd say that's pretty impressive.
If you want to know, I started off as gold season 1, plat season 2, master season 3 (toss, but it was very low masters), then I switched to zerg season 4, and season 5 I'm masters.
I could say that experience has a lot of merit because I've played as toss and have an understanding of how toss works (they get to warp everywhere ) For some of the people out there who are saying that you have a GM understanding of the game but lack the mechanics to do it, I agree partly with that statement. At a GM level, more than just the build order and counters are there, it's more psychological and the GMs know/play each other on a regular basis. In the case of a gold ladder, you rarely ever play the same opponent twice.
The metagame at lower divisions could also account to the reason why you are in gold. I would suggest dling platinum rank replays to help give you an idea of what you should be expecting. Because mechanics greatly comes into play at higher levels of skill, control groups and memorizing hotkeys gives you that much more of an edge over your opponent. Just because you know the counters and build orders does not mean you can execute them perfectly against your opponents. Sometimes, when you are on a set build order and you scout something thats uncool, you have to be able to play in the moment and switch up or completely change your plans. Knowing BOs is not enough; you need to react accordingly.
That said, there's a bunch of things I could go into since I don't know your style of play/how you play, but I feel that you are doing great so far with only 200+ games under your belt. I've played over a thousand games, so maybe let that be your benchmark for future games.
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You're probably doing something wrong if you're stuck in gold after so many games.
If you're gold, there are probably a ridiculous number of holes in your play. My little brother placed into platinum by zealot rushing every game, without upgrades, without warpgate, and not even proxying, or macroing well. And obvoiusly no micro. He didn't even play practice league or anything.
Now, how to improve:
I found that it's really helpful to have someone who's actually sorta decent(I'm thinking at very least mid to high diamond) at Starcraft stand behind you and tell you what to do.
Even it's them just telling you that you're bad for 30 seconds, they'll probably be able to point out some large flaws in your game. Patching these very large holes are probably your biggest concern.
Also, this:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=208343
It's a good guide on how to improve.
If you post replays of either wins or losses, you would probably get a lot of good commentary and realize how many things you're doing wrong. It's hard to improve when you don't know all the things that you're doing wrong. TL is a decent site to get comments, but so is watching very informative shows such as the Day9 Daily.
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On January 14 2012 07:16 SKYFISH_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 14:42 BLacKOuTz wrote:
I think alot of my problem is I know the meta game for high levels of play but as Idra has said before, sometimes people win just because they accidently did something amazing that NO ONE ever does. Like losing to 6 rax all ins on Tal darim when they dont scout and guess right first try, and not scouting a 4 gate and building a marauder only army and rolling through it. (Both happened today). No one good would ever build 10 marauders and nothing else without scouting. Yes, your problem is that you know the GM meta game all too well. This is why you are in Gold league. Not because you suck. Jesus H, kid, get off your high horse and stop pretending to be better than you actually are. No, its not _normal_ to be in Gold after 170 (consecutive) wins.Not for someone whose goal is to climb up the ranks at least. My advice would be to stop watching TheoryCraftCentral9 and direct your attention to a pro gamer's stream where you should try picking up some builds and timings and a certain style of play in general.
This guy is completely right. The only reason anyone should lose to something as ridiculous as pure marauders is if they didn't scout. 2 immortals + a few zealots and stalkers can hold 10 marauders easily, and its entirely possible to have that army by the time that many marauders show up at your front door.
I would follow his advice, blackoutz. Go watch pro streams and play the game. I would not, however, try and copy builds just yet. Pro players, and masters players, for that matter, play a reactive style. They may not change builds because of what their opponent is doing, but minor adjustments will be made, but following a pro build might just cause you to lose more games than you win. Stick with your respective race's bread and butter (ie. 3gate expand/robo, 2-3rax or 1 rax expand, 14-14 or 15 hatch) until around diamond with a macro oriented focus, then practice builds.
edit; in relevance to the thread, I have about 250 1v1 wins, and I'm high masters.
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Replays are in the original post now.
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It takes thousands of games to build up the mechanics to play the game somewhat close to what it's meant to be. Especially if you have no previous experience in RTS games. I never played these kinda games before SC2 and it took me about 9500 games to get from Bronze to low GM EU / mid GM US. Builds, compositions and strategies are completely useless if you don't have a base to play around, and that's the mechanics. Those you only learn by playing a lot of games and to master em it takes years.
Bear in mind i'm a very hard worker when it comes to improving and i'm very competitive, however i'm not really a fast learner nor am i particulary skilled with mouse/keyboard, so depending on your predisposition it might take you something less but it's still gonna be a matter of thousands. Simply put, with 170 games with no RTS experience in your bag, you're nowhere. You can't possibly have any game knowledge if not for what you've seen on streams (which is a whole different game from the one you're playing) and you have a very little grasp of the mechanics and metagame. The league you're in doesn't mean anything with these few games.
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France12795 Posts
I don't really know what the normal progression rate is, but as a player with no RTS background (and no high level halo experience, only "decent" level on halo 2, like top 100-150ish in france, a long time ago), it took me maybe 150 games to be in diamond from bronze (started bronze cuz of disconnect, otherwise I would have been silver/gold), and I became quickly master after it was released (one or two week after).
However, I did it the "wrong" and uncommon way imo :
I didn't want to learn the basics by playing against bad players, so I just tried to be in the highest league possible and then try to learn the game.
Thus I "practiced" only one strat by match-up, as micro intensive as possible, since micro was the most "beautiful" thing about this game for me, like 5rax reaper in every match-up, proxy reaper, etc...
And basically the whole season 1 I 2raxed every TvZ, 2rax allined every TvT because I hated tanks-vikings wars, and 5raxreaper then proxy reaper then 3rax allin then dual thor + 1weapon build every TvP then marine scv all-in, until master.
And then at the start of the season 2 I started learning the game for real, with a friend's account, testing a lot of strategies, build, learning how to macro properly, and then I just tried to be in control of the pace of the game, being the one who make things happen in the game. I did not drop in MMR when starting to learn the game on my main account but it took some time to really improve.
And this season I'm still masters, playing against GM occasionnaly, so basically I progressed at a very slow rate since I'm not even gm -;-, so you should learn the basics instead of trying to win and learn the game while in master.
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EPT
