What part am I missing because the CPM number seems to be right? Or do you mean that people are being mislead because companies quote $3 CPM to someone and tell them it's $3 per 1000 ad opportunities, instead of telling them CPM really means $3 per 1000 ad impression?
Yes, many people use CPM instead of eCPM during the sales process because it is a nicer sounding number.
Well see that's the part I'm confused about. CPM = cost per 1000 ad impressions. That means 1000 people saw this ad. Therefore, the CPM number is not wrong or a lie and is basically the same thing as eCPM. The eCPM is just a ratio of the full CPM amount.
$3 CPM = 1000 ad impressions $1.50 eCPM = 500 ad impressions
The $3 CPM number is not wrong because $1.50 eCPM means they only got 50% of the 1000 ad impressions needed to get the full amount. If you turn that 500 ad impressions from eCPM into 1000, then you get $3, which is the rate CPM is stated at.
Nobody said it was WRONG. Its just a different way to represent it. eCPM represents what you get when you play an ad in front of 1000 viewers, CPM represents what you get when you 1000 people view your ad.
- Ad blockers : Of course this is an issue and we are working on helping partners learn how many people are using ad blocker and educating people that using ad blocker is detrimental to folks who are trying to create great content and entertain people.
Derp. I vow that my existence will serve the purpose of denying ads as much as possible. If I want to watch starcraft, I want to watch starcraft - not garbage from company's that want me to buy their products.
Get off the internet with your ad revenue bull. It's just obnoxious is what it is.
congratulations you are killing esports (for real)
What part am I missing because the CPM number seems to be right? Or do you mean that people are being mislead because companies quote $3 CPM to someone and tell them it's $3 per 1000 ad opportunities, instead of telling them CPM really means $3 per 1000 ad impression?
Yes, many people use CPM instead of eCPM during the sales process because it is a nicer sounding number.
Well see that's the part I'm confused about. CPM = cost per 1000 ad impressions. That means 1000 people saw this ad. Therefore, the CPM number is not wrong or a lie and is basically the same thing as eCPM. The eCPM is just a ratio of the full CPM amount.
$3 CPM = 1000 ad impressions $1.50 eCPM = 500 ad impressions
The $3 CPM number is not wrong because $1.50 eCPM means they only got 50% of the 1000 ad impressions needed to get the full amount. If you turn that 500 ad impressions from eCPM into 1000, then you get $3, which is the rate CPM is stated at.
Nobody said it was WRONG. Its just a different way to represent it. eCPM represents what you get when you play an ad in front of 1000 viewers, CPM represents what you get when you 1000 people view your ad.
Think of CPM being your ideal perfect rate, and eCPM being the rate adjusted for filters like countries. The reason CPM can be misleading, is people think okay, I have 6k viewers, I make $18 every time I run an ad! Really, it means you COULD make $18, but on average you'll make closer to $9, because thats how many people are really seeing the ad. Theoretical yield vs actual yield.
What part am I missing because the CPM number seems to be right? Or do you mean that people are being mislead because companies quote $3 CPM to someone and tell them it's $3 per 1000 ad opportunities, instead of telling them CPM really means $3 per 1000 ad impression?
Yes, many people use CPM instead of eCPM during the sales process because it is a nicer sounding number.
Well see that's the part I'm confused about. CPM = cost per 1000 ad impressions. That means 1000 people saw this ad. Therefore, the CPM number is not wrong or a lie and is basically the same thing as eCPM. The eCPM is just a ratio of the full CPM amount.
$3 CPM = 1000 ad impressions $1.50 eCPM = 500 ad impressions
The $3 CPM number is not wrong because $1.50 eCPM means they only got 50% of the 1000 ad impressions needed to get the full amount. If you turn that 500 ad impressions from eCPM into 1000, then you get $3, which is the rate CPM is stated at.
Nobody said it was WRONG. Its just a different way to represent it. eCPM represents what you get when you play an ad in front of 1000 viewers, CPM represents what you get when you 1000 people view your ad.
Ok, so it's just a case broadcasters being mislead a bit, because when they get told $3 cpm, they think it's $3 per 1000 viewers when it's really $3 per 1000 impressions. However, even if they know it's $3 per 1000 impressions, it's hard for them to do the math themselves, because they don't know how many viewers actually saw the ad, so they're left guessing.
eCPM takes the guess work out of it because it gives the true value of how many actually saw the ad. Therefore, it's just a transperency issue like the original op said. Ok got it.
- Ad blockers : Of course this is an issue and we are working on helping partners learn how many people are using ad blocker and educating people that using ad blocker is detrimental to folks who are trying to create great content and entertain people.
Derp. I vow that my existence will serve the purpose of denying ads as much as possible. If I want to watch starcraft, I want to watch starcraft - not garbage from company's that want me to buy their products.
Get off the internet with your ad revenue bull. It's just obnoxious is what it is.
You want to watch starcraft, but what starcraft would you watch when no one wants to stream, and no events can be broadcasted online due to zero revenue from advertising. Without it, how are sponsors suppose to pay players and teams to compete. Your whole "existence" is to ruin esports completely. I think you need to take a step back and think about what exactly you are saying.
Effectively this makes it hard to compare ecpm if we don't actually know the fill rates among the different platforms... Why not make that transparent if you truly believe that transparency is good for the industry?
What part am I missing because the CPM number seems to be right? Or do you mean that people are being mislead because companies quote $3 CPM to someone and tell them it's $3 per 1000 ad opportunities, instead of telling them CPM really means $3 per 1000 ad impression?
Yes, many people use CPM instead of eCPM during the sales process because it is a nicer sounding number.
Well see that's the part I'm confused about. CPM = cost per 1000 ad impressions. That means 1000 people saw this ad. Therefore, the CPM number is not wrong or a lie and is basically the same thing as eCPM. The eCPM is just a ratio of the full CPM amount.
$3 CPM = 1000 ad impressions $1.50 eCPM = 500 ad impressions
The $3 CPM number is not wrong because $1.50 eCPM means they only got 50% of the 1000 ad impressions needed to get the full amount. If you turn that 500 ad impressions from eCPM into 1000, then you get $3, which is the rate CPM is stated at.
Nobody said it was WRONG. Its just a different way to represent it. eCPM represents what you get when you play an ad in front of 1000 viewers, CPM represents what you get when you 1000 people view your ad.
Ok, so it's just a case broadcasters being mislead a bit, because when they get told $3 cpm, they think it's $3 per 1000 viewers when it's really $3 per 1000 impressions. However, even if they know it's $3 per 1000 impressions, it's hard for them to do the math themselves, because they don't know how many viewers actually saw the ad, so they're left guessing.
eCPM takes the guess work out of it because it gives the true value of how many actually saw the ad. Therefore, it's just a transperency issue like the original op said. Ok got it.
They aren't being mislead, this is very common knowledge and can be confirmed via a variety of sources. CPM is always per 1000 impressions. Viewers don't matter if they're not seeing the ad, which is why ad-blocker users (unless they are using one of the versions which loads the ad in a micro-window in the corner) effectively don't count.
What part am I missing because the CPM number seems to be right? Or do you mean that people are being mislead because companies quote $3 CPM to someone and tell them it's $3 per 1000 ad opportunities, instead of telling them CPM really means $3 per 1000 ad impression?
Yes, many people use CPM instead of eCPM during the sales process because it is a nicer sounding number.
Well see that's the part I'm confused about. CPM = cost per 1000 ad impressions. That means 1000 people saw this ad. Therefore, the CPM number is not wrong or a lie and is basically the same thing as eCPM. The eCPM is just a ratio of the full CPM amount.
$3 CPM = 1000 ad impressions $1.50 eCPM = 500 ad impressions
The $3 CPM number is not wrong because $1.50 eCPM means they only got 50% of the 1000 ad impressions needed to get the full amount. If you turn that 500 ad impressions from eCPM into 1000, then you get $3, which is the rate CPM is stated at.
Nobody said it was WRONG. Its just a different way to represent it. eCPM represents what you get when you play an ad in front of 1000 viewers, CPM represents what you get when you 1000 people view your ad.
Ok, so it's just a case broadcasters being mislead a bit, because when they get told $3 cpm, they think it's $3 per 1000 viewers when it's really $3 per 1000 impressions. However, even if they know it's $3 per 1000 impressions, it's hard for them to do the math themselves, because they don't know how many viewers actually saw the ad, so they're left guessing.
eCPM takes the guess work out of it because it gives the true value of how many actually saw the ad. Therefore, it's just a transperency issue like the original op said. Ok got it.
exactly.
Also, as i understand, the OP claims that their fill rate is better than the competition, so that even if other sites may look better from their CPM, the actual revenue per viewer per ad (eCPM) is better at twitch. If this is the case, it is natural for the competition to quote their CPM as it compares better to twitch, and it is natural for twitch to try to educate the customers about the difference between CPM and eCPM, so that they wont buy the flawed arguments from the competition. And I guess that is why he is posting this thread.
Then there may be further information that would put the competition in better light again, that the OP doesn't want to mention, that we cannot know. The info looks very nice (ty for writeup), but keep in mind that it's from twitch, and may be biased.
Anyway, thanks to all streaming sites for bringing us closer to our players, and special thanks to twitch for partnership with liquid!
Also, I should try to keep in mind to start every day with getting the expensive ads from my favourite streams, before i go to "lesser" streams.
Is the intent to lead us to believe based on this that everyone who has left Twitch for own3d have been lured away with the promise of a higher CPM when they have a lower fill rate than Twitch?
I've read it's the opposite and that your fill rate is actually worse as of late
I am a senior analyst for a major advertising agency which has used twitch.tv among others in the past to place our in-stream video ads. I just want to confirm that what he is saying is true and to give some additional information from our perspective on how you can improve your fill rate or eCPM.
1.) Keep it PG and non controvercial...many brands won't run on UGC (User Generated Content) for the reason that it is difficult to guarantee brand safety. Those brands that will utilize UGC often will implement verification technology that moniters page content, and even has begun to moniter video content and will automatically block the ad from running.
2.) As mentioned previously ads are often regional or national so you will often only get ads fullfilled if your watchers are within that region. For those who live and stream in the United States you will get the highest fullfill rate if you stream at high volume time periods for your region. AKA clost to primetime hours. 5 - 10 PM pacific. If you are streaming late at night or early morning and have a tone of viewers but are getting very low eCPM it's because they are probably international and blocked from recieving ads
3.) Ask your users regularly to turn off ad-blockers, if you're making the effort to create a good product for them then they should be willing to help you out by turning off ad-blocking.
4.) Most cookies are perfectly safe and are what advertisers utilize to behavioral and demo target users with relevant content. A lot of the gaming community is tech saavy and probably clear their cookies regularly. This is no longer a safety issue and most consumers would receive a better web surfing experience if they did not clear their cookies. behavioraly targeted ads should have an icon in the top left or right corner of the ad that you can click and opt out of if you're concerned with tracking. It looks like a small triangle with a lower case i in it.
5.) A 50% rev share is an amazing deal. Google won't share their rates and it works out to something closer to 1% if you're lucky.
On January 05 2012 11:32 floor exercise wrote: Is the intent to lead us to believe based on this that everyone who has left Twitch for own3d have been lured away with the promise of a higher CPM when they have a lower fill rate than Twitch?
I've read it's the opposite and that your fill rate is actually worse as of late
The intent is to educate people so they can make informed choices and have informed discussions.
As for our fill rate, that is a confidential number and is super region/time specific. Whatever you read is not backed up by any facts and even if it were, it was only true for the minute sampling of time that the facts were taken from.
We are always working hard to improve our fill rate. It helps both ourselves and our partners.
On January 05 2012 11:36 Innovation wrote: 3.) Ask your users regularly to turn off ad-blockers, if you're making the effort to create a good product for them then they should be willing to help you out by turning off ad-blocking.
5.) A 50% rev share is an amazing deal. Google won't share their rates and it works out to something closer to 1% if you're lucky.
Thanks for contributing that information Innovation!
As for ad blockers, I agree. Twitch does a pretty good job of having the vast majority of users not adblock our site! Please continue to whitelist TwitchTV if you have an adblock installed. Major hearts to you and it gives us the funding to sponsor great events and of course Team Liquid itself....
As for the revshare, we think it is amazing as well. It gives both our partners and us the same incentives to work together to make the best product possible. It does mean that we have to do some education to streamers and viewers so that they can understand what this means for both their revenue and our revenue. We believe in this approach even if it makes things slightly harder for us.
Thanks for advertising on TwitchTV and I hope you'll continue to send the ads our way! We'll ensure that they get to our sweet, juicy demographic! We gamers are a hard group to reach due to the universal hatred of TV!
On January 05 2012 11:32 floor exercise wrote: Is the intent to lead us to believe based on this that everyone who has left Twitch for own3d have been lured away with the promise of a higher CPM when they have a lower fill rate than Twitch?
I've read it's the opposite and that your fill rate is actually worse as of late
The intent is to educate people so they can make informed choices and have informed discussions.
As for our fill rate, that is a confidential number and is super region/time specific. Whatever you read is not backed up by any facts and even if it were, it was only true for the minute sampling of time that the facts were taken from.
We are always working hard to improve our fill rate. It helps both ourselves and our partners.
So FXOBoSs or you is lying. Great thing that you can do your own advertisment on this website and that people takes it for truth while it's nothing more than propaganda.
Calculation for eCPM is easily obtained by calculating the revenue vs the viewership.
When I stated my facts it was based on calculations made by our own monitoring system we use for our own advertising purposes (FXOpen spends over 5 million a year in online advertising).
Our fill rate at twitch was much lower than own3d. But as I have previously stated I am not really satisfied with either parties at the moment.
Twitch has done good by clarifying all this to people. The only problem now is that people are going to start constantly calculating what their fill rate is, what their ecpm is. And its a pretty simple calculation.
On January 05 2012 12:18 FXOpen wrote:Our fill rate at twitch was much lower than own3d. But as I have previously stated I am not really satisfied with either parties at the moment.
Thanks for contributing with your very real information!
Just to check though: as I understand (and as stated in this thread) the fill rate depends a lot on things, like when you stream, the PG-rating, where your viewers come from (geographically and community), etc. Do you think the lower fill rate with twitch can be due to these factors, rather than twitch being worse at getting fillrate than own3d? eg, if you took the twitch statistics mainly at bad hours, and the own3d mainly at good hours, or if the twitch stream got a different PG rating.
No accusation, just as it is a very important piece of information, it is good to know we are comparing apples to apples. cheers.
and OP: if you want to say that twitch got better fill-rates, do you got any (preferably independent) source to that information that we can check? It would help your cause a lot I think. I understand that this is all secret, but it makes it hard for us to really trust if all we got is the word of a guy working at the company. :/ I'm not really educated in this though, so I'm sorry if what I ask for doesn't make any sense. Again, thanks for helping us viewers get in close contact with the players! edit: or wait, maybe you didnt say that you had better fill-rate, only better eCPM? So if you have worse fill-rate, but give a larger ratio of the ad money to the streamer, I guess your information is not necessarily in conflict with FXOpens? I'm getting confused....
I find it so lame that all streamers are going to own3d TV now just because they give more money to streamers, dispite giving a much worse viewer experience. I liked watching naniwa and today I saw he switched from twitch to own3d...lag made it unwatchable. Not only lag but every time I refresh or open a stream it resets the resolution i chose. Also theres only two resolution options, 360p and 1080p...and often the sound is glitched out on 360p and I cant watch HD or my ISP will charge me xtra dl fees. Not to mention the vods are ONLY in 1080p. Oh and did I talk about the buggy sound button and the annoying overlay that hide a quarter of the screen when you hoover your mouse on the video..
TL:DR Twitch is simply superior to own3dtv in every way on a viewer perspective and its sad that there are so many own3d stream only because they pay streamers slightly more
btw twitch have you thought about matching the profit margin of own3d? I feel like you will be bankrupt in a few month at the rate its going now..
EPT
