There has been a lot of heated discussion lately regarding advertising revenue in the video game streaming business and the way broadcasters are compensated for their content. To be sure, it’s a complicated business with many nuances that are often lost in casual conversation. I’d like to dive in for a minute to clear up a few misconceptions.
Note that at TwitchTV, we are dedicated to delivering the best service and greatest revenue possible for our partners, while offering the best viewing experience for our users. We hope this level of transparency will help bring the whole discussion to a more fruitful level for the entire community.
There are two main models for compensating broadcasters: Revenue Share and Flat-Rate.
**Revenue Share** works like this: For every ad, the platform and the broadcaster share in the revenue. For example, if the platform sells a $20 CPM (cost per thousand impressions) ad, the broadcaster receives $10 for every thousand viewers who see that ad.
**Flat-Rate** works like this: The broadcaster is compensated at a specific CPM per ad, $5 being a popular rate. So, in this case, if the platform sells a $20 CPM ad, the broadcaster receives exactly $5 per thousand viewers who see that ad, and the company keeps the remaining $15.
There are pros and cons to each option.
The pro for the revenue share option is that the broadcaster benefits from better sales on the part of the streaming platform (the higher the ad sells for, the higher the revenue the partner receives). The con is that while revenue can be forecast fairly accurately, it cannot be pinpointed with exact accuracy every month, and the broadcaster shares the risk that it will go down.
The pro for the flat-rate option is that the broadcaster can forecast the revenue made in a month more easily because the rate is guaranteed. The con is that they will lose out on revenue made by the platform when an ad is sold above that $5 CPM.
Whether the broadcaster is on a revenue share or flat-rate, both the partner and the company make more money if the company sells more ads. The difference is that for a rev share, the partner takes the risk AND the benefits along with the company, whereas with a flat rate, the partner takes less risk but also less reward.
At TwitchTV, we believe that our partners should benefit if we benefit, thus we have promoted a revenue share model. We do this because we are in close contact with the best video game broadcasters on the planet, and they’ve told us that this is what they prefer. However, we realize that one size does not fit all and we will be offering a Flat-Rate option in addition to our standard Revenue Share option.
Now for the real nitty-gritty advertising 101 primer on how advertising works:
Terms you need to know first:
- Ad Opportunity: This is the total number of opportunities a company has available to deliver an Ad Impression. For example, if a channel has 1000 simultaneous viewers and runs 1 commercial, there are 1000 opportunities to show an Ad Impression. Ad Opportunities are also sometimes described as Ad Inventory.
- Ad Impression: This is counted when a viewer *actually* sees an ad. Impressions are always less or equal to opportunities. Fill-rate: This is Ad Impressions divided by Ad Opportunities. In an ideal world, everyone sells every single Ad Opportunity to someone. This would mean 100% fill-rate. In the real world, because there are other variables like country of viewer, time of day, number of ads seen by a unique viewer, etc. the Fill-rate is always less than 100%.
- CPM - this is cost per 1000 Ad Impressions. So $3 CPM means you earn $3 per 1000 Ad Impressions viewed. It is important to note that it is not $3 per 1000 Ad Opportunities.
- eCPM (Effective CPM) - this is cost per 1000 Ad Opportunities, thus takes Fill-Rate into account. This is a much better measure of how a company is performing in terms of sales. Thus if someone tells you they offer $3 CPM, but has a Fill-rate of 50%, then your eCPM is $1.50. The way you calculate this is revenue divided by every 1000 Ad Opportunities. For example, if you have a $3CPM, 50% Fill-Rate and 1000 Ad Opportunities, this is 500 Ad Impressions. $3CPM x 500 Ad Impressions / 1000 = $1.50 eCPM.
- Frequency Cap - High paying advertisers usually only allow companies to show their ad 1-3 times per day to a unique viewer. This is to prevent over-exposure of their brand and ensure higher performance. Frequency caps can be as low as none (as in they will allow a company to show their ad as many times as possible) or 1 per day. The ones you see over and over are usually the lower paying CPM ads.
Here are the major factors that determine if a viewer sees an ad:
- Country: The country that a viewer is watching from is one of the biggest factors in determining whether someone sees an ad, how much the ad costs, and how many they see. Of course, every company is trying to sell 100% of the ad inventory - it would be silly to accuse a company of not trying to do this. However, in many countries the online video ad market is not yet as mature as in countries like US, UK and Germany. We all do our best to sell, but viewers and partners need to understand that not every country is near 100% fill-rate at the high CPMs.
- How many ads a viewer has seen each day: If you as a viewer have been to other video sites or even other channels and see other video ads before arriving at a partner channel, then whatever ad you see on the current channel you're viewing will be lower in CPM value than the first ad you saw that day. Most big brands frequency cap video ads at 1 per 24 hrs, which means you should only see their ad once per day as a unique viewer. So as you see more video ads through the day, the value of the ad decreases.
- Ad blockers : Of course this is an issue and we are working on helping partners learn how many people are using ad blocker and educating people that using ad blocker is detrimental to folks who are trying to create great content and entertain people.
Now that you are armed with this knowledge, back to the two revenue options available to broadcasters.
As you can see, comparing a flat-rate CPM to an eCPM without insight into fill rate is very misleading, and unfortunately this is exactly what is being compared with regards to TwitchTV. The best way to compare apples to apples is to look at eCPM (effective CPM, or revenue per ad opportunity). At TwitchTV, we are confident that we deliver an equal or higher eCPM than any gaming platform out there.
We strive for complete transparency with our partners. That’s why we will offer data on both ad opportunities and ad impressions in the partner dashboard. This way, partners can understand how they are doing and how we are performing for them. I urge all broadcasters, when deciding which platform to go with, to get this kind of transparency. Otherwise, it is easy to be deceptive when it comes to how much revenue a broadcaster can potentially earn.
There are competitive options out there - we know this very well. In addition to our industry leading eCPM, we are constantly driving innovation on the product. We were the first to build commercial breaks, the first to offer live transcodes, the first to offer channel subscriptions, the first to offer advanced chat moderation tools, and on and on. We pride ourselves on staying ahead of the competition when it comes to broadcaster tools, and we will continue to build great features that gamers need.
There is always room for improvement. We will continue to make TwitchTV not only the best place to find great gaming content, but also the best place for partners to broadcast their content and to earn a living by doing what they love.
Hopefully this will lead to more nuanced discussions of how much people can earn via streaming and how the various platforms handle ad dollars. Some of the chat and reddit comments are filled with misinformation. TL discussions have been better but I hope that people really understand this before they decided to spread the misinformation further...
It doesn't help esports for misinformation to spread.
This is pretty interesting. Really appreciated the breakdown of the terms and the models in place. Looking forward to future Knowledge Bombs, thanks Kevin!
On January 05 2012 09:44 integrity wrote: im to un-educated to understand all the advertisement stuff.
can someone break it down for me.
if not thats fine
The CEO of TwitchTV did it on reddit... But I guess it deserves repeating here. If you really care, you should read the entire post, however.
TL;DR: There is a difference between "CPM" and "eCPM". eCPM determines how much money is actually made. eCPM = CPM * Fill Rate. When someone tells you how great their CPM is, you should ask "What's your fill rate?" and then do the math. TwitchTV has great eCPMs :-) Emmett Shear CEO TwitchTV
Awesome information. Love that you're putting this out there, it will put to rest a lot of "How much do progamers make from streaming" questions. <3 Twitch!
Very nicely written and I hope someone can educate the koreans on this because I much prefer twitch over own3d and it sucks to see all the koreans using own3d.
Ok, 1 thing I'd like cleared up if you could. The common number people float around with twitch is that they receive $2 per 1000 ad impressions. You don't need to confirm if that's true or not, but after reading this it looks like the number isn't static like that and depends on the ad?
For example, for the more expensive ads that run only once per day it will give the broadcaster X amount. Then for the less expensive ads that run over and over, the broadcaster will receieve a lower X amount here. Therefore, is it true that you can't simply say it's $2 per 1000 impressions and it depends on what ads are seen?
I think that FXOBoSs would beg to disagree that you want to provide the best for streamers.. and he shouldn't be the only one. Amazing too that you use a 50% fill rate as exemple while it was apparently at 15% for FXO.
On January 05 2012 09:36 vinlin wrote: - CPM - this is cost per 1000 Ad Impressions. So $3 CPM means you earn $3 per 1000 Ad Impressions viewed. It is important to note that it is not $3 per 1000 Ad Opportunities.
- eCPM (Effective CPM) - this is cost per 1000 Ad Opportunities, thus takes Fill-Rate into account. This is a much better measure of how a company is performing in terms of sales. Thus if someone tells you they offer $3 CPM, but has a Fill-rate of 50%, then your eCPM is $1.50. The way you calculate this is revenue divided by every 1000 Ad Opportunities. For example, if you have a $3CPM, 50% Fill-Rate and 1000 Ad Opportunities, this is 500 Ad Impressions. $3CPM x 500 Ad Impressions / 1000 = $1.50 eCPM.
Ok I'm confused about this CPM part. You say this rate is cost per ad impression and by definition an impression is a viewed ad, so is essentially a 100% fill rate. (Yes, I know it's incorrect to use the term fill rate here, but you know what I mean)
Using your math example, for eCPM, you get $1.50 because there were only 500 ad impressions. However, CPM says it's cost per 1000 ad impressions. Therefore, if you double the 500 ad impressions to 1000 ad impressions, you get $3 for 1000 ad impressions, which is the $3 cpm quoted.
What part am I missing because the CPM number seems to be right? Or do you mean that people are being mislead because companies quote $3 CPM to someone and tell them it's $3 per 1000 ad opportunities, instead of telling them CPM really means $3 per 1000 ad impression?
- Ad blockers : Of course this is an issue and we are working on helping partners learn how many people are using ad blocker and educating people that using ad blocker is detrimental to folks who are trying to create great content and entertain people.
Derp. I vow that my existence will serve the purpose of denying ads as much as possible. If I want to watch starcraft, I want to watch starcraft - not garbage from company's that want me to buy their products.
Get off the internet with your ad revenue bull. It's just obnoxious is what it is.
On January 05 2012 09:36 vinlin wrote: - CPM - this is cost per 1000 Ad Impressions. So $3 CPM means you earn $3 per 1000 Ad Impressions viewed. It is important to note that it is not $3 per 1000 Ad Opportunities.
- eCPM (Effective CPM) - this is cost per 1000 Ad Opportunities, thus takes Fill-Rate into account. This is a much better measure of how a company is performing in terms of sales. Thus if someone tells you they offer $3 CPM, but has a Fill-rate of 50%, then your eCPM is $1.50. The way you calculate this is revenue divided by every 1000 Ad Opportunities. For example, if you have a $3CPM, 50% Fill-Rate and 1000 Ad Opportunities, this is 500 Ad Impressions. $3CPM x 500 Ad Impressions / 1000 = $1.50 eCPM.
What part am I missing because the CPM number seems to be right? Or do you mean that people are being mislead because companies quote $3 CPM to someone and tell them it's $3 per 1000 ad opportunities, instead of telling them CPM really means $3 per 1000 ad impression?
Basically that. When someone quotes a CPM value, they often do not take into account what percentage of the viewers actually sees the ad. This can be significantly less due to various factors outlined in the OP.
The eCPM value is more interesting, as it basically says how much money is earned every time you run /commercial per 1000 viewers (on average, of course).
I wonder how youtube do things? I got offered partnership with only 15 subs, 13 videos and 116k video views over 5 years. I declined because I never plan on uploading more videos but they must have an INSANE advertising stream to be able to offer partnership to such low view count/subscribed/video uploader while not completely diluting eCPM.
- Ad blockers : Of course this is an issue and we are working on helping partners learn how many people are using ad blocker and educating people that using ad blocker is detrimental to folks who are trying to create great content and entertain people.
Derp. I vow that my existence will serve the purpose of denying ads as much as possible. If I want to watch starcraft, I want to watch starcraft - not garbage from company's that want me to buy their products.
Get off the internet with your ad revenue bull. It's just obnoxious is what it is.
If everyone thought like you no streamer would make money and hence nobody would stream. By not watching ads you're actually harming your opportunities to watch Starcraft all at the gain of getting to see someone queuing for another ladder game.
On January 05 2012 10:32 Michaels wrote: I love Own3d, their video quality is truly much better than twitch.
I've seen no evidence of this being the case, they are extremely similar and streams vary on a case by case basis depending on how the streamer is setup
I wonder how youtube do things? I got offered partnership with only 15 subs, 13 videos and 116k video views over 5 years. I declined because I never plan on uploading more videos but they must have an INSANE advertising stream to be able to offer partnership to such low view count/subscribed/video uploader while not completely diluting eCPM.
They do dilute the CPM. That basic partnership you just got offered sucks (lots of people get offered this via an automated system). The people making reasonable money are doing it through companies that have ad teams who are able to negotiate for the premium CPM. Most other partners just get bottom of the barrel crap.
Derp. I vow that my existence will serve the purpose of denying ads as much as possible. If I want to watch starcraft, I want to watch starcraft - not garbage from company's that want me to buy their products.
Get off the internet with your ad revenue bull. It's just obnoxious is what it is.
I too remember being 11 years old and thinking I was clever.
- Ad blockers : Of course this is an issue and we are working on helping partners learn how many people are using ad blocker and educating people that using ad blocker is detrimental to folks who are trying to create great content and entertain people.
Derp. I vow that my existence will serve the purpose of denying ads as much as possible. If I want to watch starcraft, I want to watch starcraft - not garbage from company's that want me to buy their products.
Get off the internet with your ad revenue bull. It's just obnoxious is what it is.
So you're saying that because you don't want to watch ads, you don't want twitch.tv or any other streaming service to be able to function? It's a business. It has to make money. Ads is how it goes about doing that.
What part am I missing because the CPM number seems to be right? Or do you mean that people are being mislead because companies quote $3 CPM to someone and tell them it's $3 per 1000 ad opportunities, instead of telling them CPM really means $3 per 1000 ad impression?
Yes, many people use CPM instead of eCPM during the sales process because it is a nicer sounding number. This gets out and then you see crazy forum posts talking about how much this or that streamer should be making not taking into account fill rate at all.
So since educating the market is important if we want to really grow esports (or starcraft content... either way) I think this post will go a long way of giving people something to link to if they start spouting off lies or misinformation.
Thanks for taking the time to explain it all out. I was always a little curious about how exactly the money was made. Love what you guys are doing and hope you guys pick up more teams as a sponsor!
- Ad blockers : Of course this is an issue and we are working on helping partners learn how many people are using ad blocker and educating people that using ad blocker is detrimental to folks who are trying to create great content and entertain people.
Derp. I vow that my existence will serve the purpose of denying ads as much as possible. If I want to watch starcraft, I want to watch starcraft - not garbage from company's that want me to buy their products.
Get off the internet with your ad revenue bull. It's just obnoxious is what it is.
So 15-30 seconds every 10 minutes is too much to support the streamers/players that you love to watch? You realize that without ad revenue that NOBODY would be streaming, as it wouldn't be worth the time invested, right?
Good job not supporting the eSports community. You're a real class act.
What part am I missing because the CPM number seems to be right? Or do you mean that people are being mislead because companies quote $3 CPM to someone and tell them it's $3 per 1000 ad opportunities, instead of telling them CPM really means $3 per 1000 ad impression?
Yes, many people use CPM instead of eCPM during the sales process because it is a nicer sounding number.
Well see that's the part I'm confused about. CPM = cost per 1000 ad impressions. That means 1000 people saw this ad. Therefore, the CPM number is not wrong or a lie and is basically the same thing as eCPM. The eCPM is just a ratio of the full CPM amount.
$3 CPM = 1000 ad impressions $1.50 eCPM = 500 ad impressions
The $3 CPM number is not wrong because $1.50 eCPM means they only got 50% of the 1000 ad impressions needed to get the full amount. If you turn that 500 ad impressions from eCPM into 1000, then you get $3, which is the rate CPM is stated at.
What part am I missing because the CPM number seems to be right? Or do you mean that people are being mislead because companies quote $3 CPM to someone and tell them it's $3 per 1000 ad opportunities, instead of telling them CPM really means $3 per 1000 ad impression?
Yes, many people use CPM instead of eCPM during the sales process because it is a nicer sounding number.
Well see that's the part I'm confused about. CPM = cost per 1000 ad impressions. That means 1000 people saw this ad. Therefore, the CPM number is not wrong or a lie and is basically the same thing as eCPM. The eCPM is just a ratio of the full CPM amount.
$3 CPM = 1000 ad impressions $1.50 eCPM = 500 ad impressions
The $3 CPM number is not wrong because $1.50 eCPM means they only got 50% of the 1000 ad impressions needed to get the full amount. If you turn that 500 ad impressions from eCPM into 1000, then you get $3, which is the rate CPM is stated at.
Nobody said it was WRONG. Its just a different way to represent it. eCPM represents what you get when you play an ad in front of 1000 viewers, CPM represents what you get when you 1000 people view your ad.
- Ad blockers : Of course this is an issue and we are working on helping partners learn how many people are using ad blocker and educating people that using ad blocker is detrimental to folks who are trying to create great content and entertain people.
Derp. I vow that my existence will serve the purpose of denying ads as much as possible. If I want to watch starcraft, I want to watch starcraft - not garbage from company's that want me to buy their products.
Get off the internet with your ad revenue bull. It's just obnoxious is what it is.
congratulations you are killing esports (for real)
What part am I missing because the CPM number seems to be right? Or do you mean that people are being mislead because companies quote $3 CPM to someone and tell them it's $3 per 1000 ad opportunities, instead of telling them CPM really means $3 per 1000 ad impression?
Yes, many people use CPM instead of eCPM during the sales process because it is a nicer sounding number.
Well see that's the part I'm confused about. CPM = cost per 1000 ad impressions. That means 1000 people saw this ad. Therefore, the CPM number is not wrong or a lie and is basically the same thing as eCPM. The eCPM is just a ratio of the full CPM amount.
$3 CPM = 1000 ad impressions $1.50 eCPM = 500 ad impressions
The $3 CPM number is not wrong because $1.50 eCPM means they only got 50% of the 1000 ad impressions needed to get the full amount. If you turn that 500 ad impressions from eCPM into 1000, then you get $3, which is the rate CPM is stated at.
Nobody said it was WRONG. Its just a different way to represent it. eCPM represents what you get when you play an ad in front of 1000 viewers, CPM represents what you get when you 1000 people view your ad.
Think of CPM being your ideal perfect rate, and eCPM being the rate adjusted for filters like countries. The reason CPM can be misleading, is people think okay, I have 6k viewers, I make $18 every time I run an ad! Really, it means you COULD make $18, but on average you'll make closer to $9, because thats how many people are really seeing the ad. Theoretical yield vs actual yield.
What part am I missing because the CPM number seems to be right? Or do you mean that people are being mislead because companies quote $3 CPM to someone and tell them it's $3 per 1000 ad opportunities, instead of telling them CPM really means $3 per 1000 ad impression?
Yes, many people use CPM instead of eCPM during the sales process because it is a nicer sounding number.
Well see that's the part I'm confused about. CPM = cost per 1000 ad impressions. That means 1000 people saw this ad. Therefore, the CPM number is not wrong or a lie and is basically the same thing as eCPM. The eCPM is just a ratio of the full CPM amount.
$3 CPM = 1000 ad impressions $1.50 eCPM = 500 ad impressions
The $3 CPM number is not wrong because $1.50 eCPM means they only got 50% of the 1000 ad impressions needed to get the full amount. If you turn that 500 ad impressions from eCPM into 1000, then you get $3, which is the rate CPM is stated at.
Nobody said it was WRONG. Its just a different way to represent it. eCPM represents what you get when you play an ad in front of 1000 viewers, CPM represents what you get when you 1000 people view your ad.
Ok, so it's just a case broadcasters being mislead a bit, because when they get told $3 cpm, they think it's $3 per 1000 viewers when it's really $3 per 1000 impressions. However, even if they know it's $3 per 1000 impressions, it's hard for them to do the math themselves, because they don't know how many viewers actually saw the ad, so they're left guessing.
eCPM takes the guess work out of it because it gives the true value of how many actually saw the ad. Therefore, it's just a transperency issue like the original op said. Ok got it.
- Ad blockers : Of course this is an issue and we are working on helping partners learn how many people are using ad blocker and educating people that using ad blocker is detrimental to folks who are trying to create great content and entertain people.
Derp. I vow that my existence will serve the purpose of denying ads as much as possible. If I want to watch starcraft, I want to watch starcraft - not garbage from company's that want me to buy their products.
Get off the internet with your ad revenue bull. It's just obnoxious is what it is.
You want to watch starcraft, but what starcraft would you watch when no one wants to stream, and no events can be broadcasted online due to zero revenue from advertising. Without it, how are sponsors suppose to pay players and teams to compete. Your whole "existence" is to ruin esports completely. I think you need to take a step back and think about what exactly you are saying.
Effectively this makes it hard to compare ecpm if we don't actually know the fill rates among the different platforms... Why not make that transparent if you truly believe that transparency is good for the industry?
What part am I missing because the CPM number seems to be right? Or do you mean that people are being mislead because companies quote $3 CPM to someone and tell them it's $3 per 1000 ad opportunities, instead of telling them CPM really means $3 per 1000 ad impression?
Yes, many people use CPM instead of eCPM during the sales process because it is a nicer sounding number.
Well see that's the part I'm confused about. CPM = cost per 1000 ad impressions. That means 1000 people saw this ad. Therefore, the CPM number is not wrong or a lie and is basically the same thing as eCPM. The eCPM is just a ratio of the full CPM amount.
$3 CPM = 1000 ad impressions $1.50 eCPM = 500 ad impressions
The $3 CPM number is not wrong because $1.50 eCPM means they only got 50% of the 1000 ad impressions needed to get the full amount. If you turn that 500 ad impressions from eCPM into 1000, then you get $3, which is the rate CPM is stated at.
Nobody said it was WRONG. Its just a different way to represent it. eCPM represents what you get when you play an ad in front of 1000 viewers, CPM represents what you get when you 1000 people view your ad.
Ok, so it's just a case broadcasters being mislead a bit, because when they get told $3 cpm, they think it's $3 per 1000 viewers when it's really $3 per 1000 impressions. However, even if they know it's $3 per 1000 impressions, it's hard for them to do the math themselves, because they don't know how many viewers actually saw the ad, so they're left guessing.
eCPM takes the guess work out of it because it gives the true value of how many actually saw the ad. Therefore, it's just a transperency issue like the original op said. Ok got it.
They aren't being mislead, this is very common knowledge and can be confirmed via a variety of sources. CPM is always per 1000 impressions. Viewers don't matter if they're not seeing the ad, which is why ad-blocker users (unless they are using one of the versions which loads the ad in a micro-window in the corner) effectively don't count.
What part am I missing because the CPM number seems to be right? Or do you mean that people are being mislead because companies quote $3 CPM to someone and tell them it's $3 per 1000 ad opportunities, instead of telling them CPM really means $3 per 1000 ad impression?
Yes, many people use CPM instead of eCPM during the sales process because it is a nicer sounding number.
Well see that's the part I'm confused about. CPM = cost per 1000 ad impressions. That means 1000 people saw this ad. Therefore, the CPM number is not wrong or a lie and is basically the same thing as eCPM. The eCPM is just a ratio of the full CPM amount.
$3 CPM = 1000 ad impressions $1.50 eCPM = 500 ad impressions
The $3 CPM number is not wrong because $1.50 eCPM means they only got 50% of the 1000 ad impressions needed to get the full amount. If you turn that 500 ad impressions from eCPM into 1000, then you get $3, which is the rate CPM is stated at.
Nobody said it was WRONG. Its just a different way to represent it. eCPM represents what you get when you play an ad in front of 1000 viewers, CPM represents what you get when you 1000 people view your ad.
Ok, so it's just a case broadcasters being mislead a bit, because when they get told $3 cpm, they think it's $3 per 1000 viewers when it's really $3 per 1000 impressions. However, even if they know it's $3 per 1000 impressions, it's hard for them to do the math themselves, because they don't know how many viewers actually saw the ad, so they're left guessing.
eCPM takes the guess work out of it because it gives the true value of how many actually saw the ad. Therefore, it's just a transperency issue like the original op said. Ok got it.
exactly.
Also, as i understand, the OP claims that their fill rate is better than the competition, so that even if other sites may look better from their CPM, the actual revenue per viewer per ad (eCPM) is better at twitch. If this is the case, it is natural for the competition to quote their CPM as it compares better to twitch, and it is natural for twitch to try to educate the customers about the difference between CPM and eCPM, so that they wont buy the flawed arguments from the competition. And I guess that is why he is posting this thread.
Then there may be further information that would put the competition in better light again, that the OP doesn't want to mention, that we cannot know. The info looks very nice (ty for writeup), but keep in mind that it's from twitch, and may be biased.
Anyway, thanks to all streaming sites for bringing us closer to our players, and special thanks to twitch for partnership with liquid!
Also, I should try to keep in mind to start every day with getting the expensive ads from my favourite streams, before i go to "lesser" streams.
Is the intent to lead us to believe based on this that everyone who has left Twitch for own3d have been lured away with the promise of a higher CPM when they have a lower fill rate than Twitch?
I've read it's the opposite and that your fill rate is actually worse as of late
I am a senior analyst for a major advertising agency which has used twitch.tv among others in the past to place our in-stream video ads. I just want to confirm that what he is saying is true and to give some additional information from our perspective on how you can improve your fill rate or eCPM.
1.) Keep it PG and non controvercial...many brands won't run on UGC (User Generated Content) for the reason that it is difficult to guarantee brand safety. Those brands that will utilize UGC often will implement verification technology that moniters page content, and even has begun to moniter video content and will automatically block the ad from running.
2.) As mentioned previously ads are often regional or national so you will often only get ads fullfilled if your watchers are within that region. For those who live and stream in the United States you will get the highest fullfill rate if you stream at high volume time periods for your region. AKA clost to primetime hours. 5 - 10 PM pacific. If you are streaming late at night or early morning and have a tone of viewers but are getting very low eCPM it's because they are probably international and blocked from recieving ads
3.) Ask your users regularly to turn off ad-blockers, if you're making the effort to create a good product for them then they should be willing to help you out by turning off ad-blocking.
4.) Most cookies are perfectly safe and are what advertisers utilize to behavioral and demo target users with relevant content. A lot of the gaming community is tech saavy and probably clear their cookies regularly. This is no longer a safety issue and most consumers would receive a better web surfing experience if they did not clear their cookies. behavioraly targeted ads should have an icon in the top left or right corner of the ad that you can click and opt out of if you're concerned with tracking. It looks like a small triangle with a lower case i in it.
5.) A 50% rev share is an amazing deal. Google won't share their rates and it works out to something closer to 1% if you're lucky.
On January 05 2012 11:32 floor exercise wrote: Is the intent to lead us to believe based on this that everyone who has left Twitch for own3d have been lured away with the promise of a higher CPM when they have a lower fill rate than Twitch?
I've read it's the opposite and that your fill rate is actually worse as of late
The intent is to educate people so they can make informed choices and have informed discussions.
As for our fill rate, that is a confidential number and is super region/time specific. Whatever you read is not backed up by any facts and even if it were, it was only true for the minute sampling of time that the facts were taken from.
We are always working hard to improve our fill rate. It helps both ourselves and our partners.
On January 05 2012 11:36 Innovation wrote: 3.) Ask your users regularly to turn off ad-blockers, if you're making the effort to create a good product for them then they should be willing to help you out by turning off ad-blocking.
5.) A 50% rev share is an amazing deal. Google won't share their rates and it works out to something closer to 1% if you're lucky.
Thanks for contributing that information Innovation!
As for ad blockers, I agree. Twitch does a pretty good job of having the vast majority of users not adblock our site! Please continue to whitelist TwitchTV if you have an adblock installed. Major hearts to you and it gives us the funding to sponsor great events and of course Team Liquid itself....
As for the revshare, we think it is amazing as well. It gives both our partners and us the same incentives to work together to make the best product possible. It does mean that we have to do some education to streamers and viewers so that they can understand what this means for both their revenue and our revenue. We believe in this approach even if it makes things slightly harder for us.
Thanks for advertising on TwitchTV and I hope you'll continue to send the ads our way! We'll ensure that they get to our sweet, juicy demographic! We gamers are a hard group to reach due to the universal hatred of TV!
On January 05 2012 11:32 floor exercise wrote: Is the intent to lead us to believe based on this that everyone who has left Twitch for own3d have been lured away with the promise of a higher CPM when they have a lower fill rate than Twitch?
I've read it's the opposite and that your fill rate is actually worse as of late
The intent is to educate people so they can make informed choices and have informed discussions.
As for our fill rate, that is a confidential number and is super region/time specific. Whatever you read is not backed up by any facts and even if it were, it was only true for the minute sampling of time that the facts were taken from.
We are always working hard to improve our fill rate. It helps both ourselves and our partners.
So FXOBoSs or you is lying. Great thing that you can do your own advertisment on this website and that people takes it for truth while it's nothing more than propaganda.
Calculation for eCPM is easily obtained by calculating the revenue vs the viewership.
When I stated my facts it was based on calculations made by our own monitoring system we use for our own advertising purposes (FXOpen spends over 5 million a year in online advertising).
Our fill rate at twitch was much lower than own3d. But as I have previously stated I am not really satisfied with either parties at the moment.
Twitch has done good by clarifying all this to people. The only problem now is that people are going to start constantly calculating what their fill rate is, what their ecpm is. And its a pretty simple calculation.
On January 05 2012 12:18 FXOpen wrote:Our fill rate at twitch was much lower than own3d. But as I have previously stated I am not really satisfied with either parties at the moment.
Thanks for contributing with your very real information!
Just to check though: as I understand (and as stated in this thread) the fill rate depends a lot on things, like when you stream, the PG-rating, where your viewers come from (geographically and community), etc. Do you think the lower fill rate with twitch can be due to these factors, rather than twitch being worse at getting fillrate than own3d? eg, if you took the twitch statistics mainly at bad hours, and the own3d mainly at good hours, or if the twitch stream got a different PG rating.
No accusation, just as it is a very important piece of information, it is good to know we are comparing apples to apples. cheers.
and OP: if you want to say that twitch got better fill-rates, do you got any (preferably independent) source to that information that we can check? It would help your cause a lot I think. I understand that this is all secret, but it makes it hard for us to really trust if all we got is the word of a guy working at the company. :/ I'm not really educated in this though, so I'm sorry if what I ask for doesn't make any sense. Again, thanks for helping us viewers get in close contact with the players! edit: or wait, maybe you didnt say that you had better fill-rate, only better eCPM? So if you have worse fill-rate, but give a larger ratio of the ad money to the streamer, I guess your information is not necessarily in conflict with FXOpens? I'm getting confused....
I find it so lame that all streamers are going to own3d TV now just because they give more money to streamers, dispite giving a much worse viewer experience. I liked watching naniwa and today I saw he switched from twitch to own3d...lag made it unwatchable. Not only lag but every time I refresh or open a stream it resets the resolution i chose. Also theres only two resolution options, 360p and 1080p...and often the sound is glitched out on 360p and I cant watch HD or my ISP will charge me xtra dl fees. Not to mention the vods are ONLY in 1080p. Oh and did I talk about the buggy sound button and the annoying overlay that hide a quarter of the screen when you hoover your mouse on the video..
TL:DR Twitch is simply superior to own3dtv in every way on a viewer perspective and its sad that there are so many own3d stream only because they pay streamers slightly more
btw twitch have you thought about matching the profit margin of own3d? I feel like you will be bankrupt in a few month at the rate its going now..
You guys should give us an option to choose what ads we want to see and support and which we want to avoid. Some are very obnoxious and that's why I keep my adblock on.
I use adblock on almost every single stream because you've got people who just spam ads, I saw one on new years that just had a black message saying "spamming ads until all of you leave" and it was up for hours, some streamer called pooksie
On January 05 2012 11:32 floor exercise wrote: Is the intent to lead us to believe based on this that everyone who has left Twitch for own3d have been lured away with the promise of a higher CPM when they have a lower fill rate than Twitch?
I've read it's the opposite and that your fill rate is actually worse as of late
The intent is to educate people so they can make informed choices and have informed discussions.
As for our fill rate, that is a confidential number and is super region/time specific. Whatever you read is not backed up by any facts and even if it were, it was only true for the minute sampling of time that the facts were taken from.
We are always working hard to improve our fill rate. It helps both ourselves and our partners.
So FXOBoSs or you is lying. Great thing that you can do your own advertisment on this website and that people takes it for truth while it's nothing more than propaganda.
No, neither one of them has to be lying. More than likely one of them just has limited/bad data that doesn't allow them to reach an accurate conclusion.
On January 05 2012 11:32 floor exercise wrote: Is the intent to lead us to believe based on this that everyone who has left Twitch for own3d have been lured away with the promise of a higher CPM when they have a lower fill rate than Twitch?
I've read it's the opposite and that your fill rate is actually worse as of late
The intent is to educate people so they can make informed choices and have informed discussions.
As for our fill rate, that is a confidential number and is super region/time specific. Whatever you read is not backed up by any facts and even if it were, it was only true for the minute sampling of time that the facts were taken from.
We are always working hard to improve our fill rate. It helps both ourselves and our partners.
So FXOBoSs or you is lying. Great thing that you can do your own advertisment on this website and that people takes it for truth while it's nothing more than propaganda.
No, neither one of them has to be lying. More than likely one of them just has limited/bad data that doesn't allow them to reach an accurate conclusion.
Or, since the fxo streams are at bad times for the west typically, and own3d is more popular in the east, own3d will be more likely to hit with people that are in the same timezones as the streams.
We have the exact same incentives as our streamers to get our fill rates as high as possible. Our ultimate goal is that there is no difference between eCPM and CPM. That can happen if we can manage to get fill rates of 100%. But this form of advertising is very new and it isn't like we can just offer discounts like TV can to ensure 100% fill rate. There has to be enough video commercial content out there and enough advertisers spending money on that, which there currently is not. We are working very hard to land enough ad content to support as high of a fill rate as possible. We are partnered with large ad networks to facilitate this. Several people's full time job is to secure this ad content.
As far as FXOBoss, he hasn't streamed on our site in many months so he has absolutely no information to compare own3d's fill rate with our current fill rate for his content. We would welcome him back to try streaming with us as a partner if he is dissatisfied with his current fill situation and is able to stream with us. I personally believe that he would get more viewers and more revenue by streaming with us.
On January 05 2012 09:53 ch33psh33p wrote: Finally transparency. It always seemed a little ridiculous that this was so covered up.
It was never intentionally 'covered up' -- this is not some big secret, or unique to TwitchTV and Own3D. Kevin is just imparting some knowledge about the world of video advertising as a whole
On January 05 2012 10:06 vileIllusion wrote: <3 kevin and ben @ twitch :D
<3 :D
On January 05 2012 10:12 sAsImre wrote: I think that FXOBoSs would beg to disagree that you want to provide the best for streamers.. and he shouldn't be the only one. Amazing too that you use a 50% fill rate as exemple while it was apparently at 15% for FXO.
Ad-fill fluctuates greatly... the supposed 15% fill rate was truly an anomaly and didn't last. Unfortunately for FXO, since they peaced out we've had pretty exceptional fill in most regions
Calculation for eCPM is easily obtained by calculating the revenue vs the viewership.
This is somewhat misleading and technically false. Viewership has no relation to ad impressions and it would be impossible to calculate a true eCPM from total viewership numbers. This type of calculation brings other factors into the calculation that has nothing to do with fill rate, and leaves out factors that are very important to obtaining a true eCPM.
When I stated my facts it was based on calculations made by our own monitoring system we use for our own advertising purposes (FXOpen spends over 5 million a year in online advertising).
Our fill rate at twitch was much lower than own3d. But as I have previously stated I am not really satisfied with either parties at the moment.
I won't question your experience, however, fill rate has little to do with what either twitch.tv or Own3d is doing assuming they both have inventory on networks or exchanges. Nearly all inventory on the web (potention ad impressions) are available via an exchange/dsp system where ads are bid upon in real time depending on the context of the site and the specific attributes of the user that is loading the page. inventory levels and fill rates are fluid in that they shift all the time depending on seasonality and demand etc...if you are currently experiencing better revenue in the recent months it's probably due to the fact that inventory is seasonally low which means fill rates will be higher compared to say April through August which generally suffers from high inventory and lower fill rates. This may be the simple answer for what you were experiencing. In addition, you can positively influence your revenue much more by simply following best practices for online streaming than you ever will be able to by switching back and forth based upon a simplistic look at Viewership VS Revenue.
Twitch has done good by clarifying all this to people. The only problem now is that people are going to start constantly calculating what their fill rate is, what their ecpm is. And its a pretty simple calculation.
Twitch has done a good job by clarifying this to people but I disagree with your next statement. It is in fact extremely beneficial for people to understand, calculate, and trend this information because it will allow them to figure out how they can improve their performance and revenue by the actions they take running/promoting their stream. Understanding and trending how revenue/eCPM/fill rate is affected by your actions is the best way to improve revenue.
My recommendations to choosing a streaming partner are simply this. Find the partner that is seeking to create the best product and is most open/responsive to it's partners/audience needs and has the best rev share deal. I honestly don't have a clue who that is from a streaming perspective. But if you aren't getting the amount of revenue you were hoping for look inwardly first to improve the stream because that's going to be a better investment then service hoping.
good luck and keep up the awesome work promoting eSports, I'm a huge fan!
Really cool post here, nice to see some of this laid out.
When it comes to the Twitch vs Own3d thing, for me I support twitch. I constantly see Twitch sponsoring SC2 teams/events/people and you gotta support your sponsors. Plus Own3d works like shit when I watch from my cell, but Twitch works nicely most of the time.
I'm still confused about eCPM and CPM - this suggests to me that CPM is more important than eCPM. Who cares how many opportunities you have, when you can show them the actual number?
I wish I had a choice to watch someone streaming in twitch or own3d. A lot of Korean streamers use own3d exclusively. I totally support twitch 100% though. There's really no effective way for me to eliminate own3d :/
Thankyou very much for writing such an informative explanation of how streaming revenue is analysed and calculated. I'd also like to hear thoughts on advertisement blockers, whether you have any estimates viewing opportunities lost on average and if companies like Twitch.tv have any solutions to, or methods of placating the issue.
As a viewer, I've always been very happy with the service of TwitchTV. And while this information doesn't particularly affect me, as I don't stream, I do watch many streams and find it very interesting how the revenue model works. Thanks for the insight, and keep up the good work!
Thx for this Kevin, i enjoy your service, but it makes me a little bit sad to see some Players Click on the ad button and nothing happens to me. i removed adblockers. so there are no ads for my Country(austria) when it just blinks black for a second or is there an issue?
LOL @ the guy who said "twitch going to die in a few months"
Twitch is supposed to have a low fill rate. Okay, thats great from Twitchs perspective, bad from streamer perspective. It simply means Twitch maxes out all capped advertisers extremely fast. It also means that Twitch has quite a few capping advertisers (and those usually mean big bucks) and not that many uncapped ones.
Now if big streamers leave, its STILL no problem for Twitch. Their filler rate goes up, so what. They still blow out all caps every day, the advertisers are happy and stay. Streamers are happy too because their filler rate goes up. Sure, Twitch wont be that happy because their reach is getting reduced, but as long as they dont reach dangerously high filler rates, no problem for them.
Excellent Knowledge bomb! Hope to see more in the future by TwitchTV! I personally like it more compared to other streaming services, Own3d for example.
Just skimmed the OP and I'm not even sure this relates to the topic. I just wanted to say this to Twitch:
I hate it. It drives me INSANE, I get pissed off to the point where I just close streams now. The advertisements that don't have a mute option. Notables: -Fiat commercial with Jennifer Lopez, The chevy car dropping out of place commercial, some new one that I can't remember the name.
I pay around 125-150 for the full package of Television/movie channels and when a commercial is on, I can press mute. It's my right to have an option to turn the sound off. The fact that you don't include a mute option just disgusts me and makes me so mad. 90% of the times I watch streams besides things like MLG, GSL, I usually just have them on Mute. Meaning I don't even want to hear the viewers gameplay/talking. So why do you think I would want to hear an advertisement.
Twitch if you have a response that is something like 'we don't determine that' 'the ad companies do' then its your responsibility to take all this feedback and tell the ad companies, hey our viewers would like a mute option on every ad. 'ok so you don't agree, okay then we're not using you as an ad company.'
On January 05 2012 17:35 Nizzy wrote: Just skimmed the OP and I'm not even sure this relates to the topic. I just wanted to say this to Twitch:
I hate it. It drives me INSANE, I get pissed off to the point where I just close streams now. The advertisements that don't have a mute option. Notables: -Fiat commercial with Jennifer Lopez, The chevy car dropping out of place commercial, some new one that I can't remember the name.
I pay around 125-150 for the full package of Television/movie channels and when a commercial is on, I can press mute. It's my right to have an option to turn the sound off. The fact that you don't include a mute option just disgusts me and makes me so mad. 90% of the times I watch streams besides things like MLG, GSL, I usually just have them on Mute. Meaning I don't even want to hear the viewers gameplay/talking. So why do you think I would want to hear an advertisement.
Twitch if you have a response that is something like 'we don't determine that' 'the ad companies do' then its your responsibility to take all this feedback and tell the ad companies, hey our viewers would like a mute option on every ad. 'ok so you don't agree, okay then we're not using you as an ad company.'
Yes no mute can be quite annoying on some commercials but I just wnated to point out that you paying for your TV/movie channels does not give you the option to mute the commercials. You paying for your TV does, just like how you paying for you computer gives you the option to turn off the volume.
If you feel this strongly about it keep your streams in seperate browsers, when an ad comes on feel free to mute that browser in the volume mixer so you can listen to another stream or music, or nothing at all. I feel grateful I only have to sit through a 15/30 second commercial every 15 mins, unlike watching TV(that like you said you're paying an assload for) where you sit through 3 minutes of commercials every 8 minutes.
Edit: Also I doubt that the advertising agencies would listen to something like that. The fact that you remember a Jennifer Lopez Fiat commercial shows that they're doing their jobs.
So to throw a few concrete numbers in here: Taking into account all the factors like ad blockers, distributed location of the audience, etc. - If a stream has 1000 viewers and a commercial is played, how much money is to be expected for the streamer in practice? 2-5$? Rough estimates suffice.
On January 05 2012 17:35 Nizzy wrote: Just skimmed the OP and I'm not even sure this relates to the topic. I just wanted to say this to Twitch:
I hate it. It drives me INSANE, I get pissed off to the point where I just close streams now. The advertisements that don't have a mute option. Notables: -Fiat commercial with Jennifer Lopez, The chevy car dropping out of place commercial, some new one that I can't remember the name.
I pay around 125-150 for the full package of Television/movie channels and when a commercial is on, I can press mute. It's my right to have an option to turn the sound off. The fact that you don't include a mute option just disgusts me and makes me so mad. 90% of the times I watch streams besides things like MLG, GSL, I usually just have them on Mute. Meaning I don't even want to hear the viewers gameplay/talking. So why do you think I would want to hear an advertisement.
Twitch if you have a response that is something like 'we don't determine that' 'the ad companies do' then its your responsibility to take all this feedback and tell the ad companies, hey our viewers would like a mute option on every ad. 'ok so you don't agree, okay then we're not using you as an ad company.'
Yes no mute can be quite annoying on some commercials but I just wnated to point out that you paying for your TV/movie channels does not give you the option to mute the commercials. You paying for your TV does, just like how you paying for you computer gives you the option to turn off the volume.
If you feel this strongly about it keep your streams in seperate browsers, when an ad comes on feel free to mute that browser in the volume mixer so you can listen to another stream or music, or nothing at all. I feel grateful I only have to sit through a 15/30 second commercial every 15 mins, unlike watching TV(that like you said you're paying an assload for) where you sit through 3 minutes of commercials every 8 minutes.
Edit: Also I doubt that the advertising agencies would listen to something like that. The fact that you remember a Jennifer Lopez Fiat commercial shows that they're doing their jobs.
I've never knew how you can fully mute all sounds/volumes to a specific program in the volume mixer? Have any instructions on how to do this?
EDIT: of course I would remember. Twitch only has 2-3 ads tops going at once. Yeah they did their jobs, ran their ads down my mind so many times ill never consider buying a fiat or chevy.
WOW I always wanted to know this stuff thank you so much for such a detailed explanation /sarcasm
Seriously whats the point of all this jibber jabber, can't people read this in the code of conduct or some sort on Twitch.tv, where it belongs or maybe they should describe it in the contracts they enclose with all their broadcasters. So why is this bullshit on TL under SC2? At least post this in the general thread, or better don't post it at all on TL but post it on TwitchTV where it belongs if it is such a big deal.
On January 05 2012 17:35 Nizzy wrote: Just skimmed the OP and I'm not even sure this relates to the topic. I just wanted to say this to Twitch:
I hate it. It drives me INSANE, I get pissed off to the point where I just close streams now. The advertisements that don't have a mute option. Notables: -Fiat commercial with Jennifer Lopez, The chevy car dropping out of place commercial, some new one that I can't remember the name.
I pay around 125-150 for the full package of Television/movie channels and when a commercial is on, I can press mute. It's my right to have an option to turn the sound off. The fact that you don't include a mute option just disgusts me and makes me so mad. 90% of the times I watch streams besides things like MLG, GSL, I usually just have them on Mute. Meaning I don't even want to hear the viewers gameplay/talking. So why do you think I would want to hear an advertisement.
Twitch if you have a response that is something like 'we don't determine that' 'the ad companies do' then its your responsibility to take all this feedback and tell the ad companies, hey our viewers would like a mute option on every ad. 'ok so you don't agree, okay then we're not using you as an ad company.'
Yes no mute can be quite annoying on some commercials but I just wnated to point out that you paying for your TV/movie channels does not give you the option to mute the commercials. You paying for your TV does, just like how you paying for you computer gives you the option to turn off the volume.
If you feel this strongly about it keep your streams in seperate browsers, when an ad comes on feel free to mute that browser in the volume mixer so you can listen to another stream or music, or nothing at all. I feel grateful I only have to sit through a 15/30 second commercial every 15 mins, unlike watching TV(that like you said you're paying an assload for) where you sit through 3 minutes of commercials every 8 minutes.
Edit: Also I doubt that the advertising agencies would listen to something like that. The fact that you remember a Jennifer Lopez Fiat commercial shows that they're doing their jobs.
I've never knew how you can fully mute all sounds/volumes to a specific program in the volume mixer? Have any instructions on how to do this?
EDIT: of course I would remember. Twitch only has 2-3 ads tops going at once. Yeah they did their jobs, ran their ads down my mind so many times ill never consider buying a fiat or chevy.
Haha I'm no computer whiz but on my computer if you just right click the little speaker symbol on the bar in the bottom right, theres an option called volume mixer. From there you can adjust the volume on the programs on on your computer, but like if you have multiple tabs open of Firefox it will mute them all, so instead you could use like 2 different browsers, like internet explorer, mozilla, chrome.
On January 05 2012 17:55 Humposaurus wrote: WOW I always wanted to know this stuff thank you so much for such a detailed explanation /sarcasm
Seriously whats the point of all this jibber jabber, can't people read this in the code of conduct or some sort on Twitch.tv, where it belongs or maybe they should describe it in the contracts they enclose with all their broadcasters. So why is this bullshit on TL under SC2? At least post this in the general thread, or better don't post it at all on TL but post it on TwitchTV where it belongs if it is such a big deal.
P.S. <3 my AdBlocker
Maybe you don't care but alot of people here are curious about it... Why is it in SC2? Do you know how many SC2 streamers stream on twitch... Also don't forget Twitch.tv is a sponsor who supports a ton of progamers through their revenue system, so if you like to watch SC2 maybe you should be grateful we have companies like them?
On January 05 2012 17:35 Nizzy wrote: Just skimmed the OP and I'm not even sure this relates to the topic. I just wanted to say this to Twitch:
I hate it. It drives me INSANE, I get pissed off to the point where I just close streams now. The advertisements that don't have a mute option. Notables: -Fiat commercial with Jennifer Lopez, The chevy car dropping out of place commercial, some new one that I can't remember the name.
I pay around 125-150 for the full package of Television/movie channels and when a commercial is on, I can press mute. It's my right to have an option to turn the sound off. The fact that you don't include a mute option just disgusts me and makes me so mad. 90% of the times I watch streams besides things like MLG, GSL, I usually just have them on Mute. Meaning I don't even want to hear the viewers gameplay/talking. So why do you think I would want to hear an advertisement.
Twitch if you have a response that is something like 'we don't determine that' 'the ad companies do' then its your responsibility to take all this feedback and tell the ad companies, hey our viewers would like a mute option on every ad. 'ok so you don't agree, okay then we're not using you as an ad company.'
It is not your right to have an option to turn the sound off on the site. Muting your TV is not analogous to muting a specific site because you still have the option to mute your entire computer. Twitch has no obligation to make it easier for you to ignore their ads. Viewers might want a mute option but that could very well be self-sacrificial for Twitch to provide. If viewers leave because of the lack of a mute button, that is their right to do that, but I think overall, it would probably be more profitable for Twitch not to offer a mute button and lose a couple viewers than to offer one and lose ad revenue.
Your entitled attitude is what is disgusting here.
On January 05 2012 17:35 Nizzy wrote: Just skimmed the OP and I'm not even sure this relates to the topic. I just wanted to say this to Twitch:
I hate it. It drives me INSANE, I get pissed off to the point where I just close streams now. The advertisements that don't have a mute option. Notables: -Fiat commercial with Jennifer Lopez, The chevy car dropping out of place commercial, some new one that I can't remember the name.
I pay around 125-150 for the full package of Television/movie channels and when a commercial is on, I can press mute. It's my right to have an option to turn the sound off. The fact that you don't include a mute option just disgusts me and makes me so mad. 90% of the times I watch streams besides things like MLG, GSL, I usually just have them on Mute. Meaning I don't even want to hear the viewers gameplay/talking. So why do you think I would want to hear an advertisement.
Twitch if you have a response that is something like 'we don't determine that' 'the ad companies do' then its your responsibility to take all this feedback and tell the ad companies, hey our viewers would like a mute option on every ad. 'ok so you don't agree, okay then we're not using you as an ad company.'
It is not your right to have an option to turn the sound off on the site. Muting your TV is not analogous to muting a specific site because you still have the option to mute your entire computer. Twitch has no obligation to make it easier for you to ignore their ads. Viewers might want a mute option but that could very well be self-sacrificial for Twitch to provide. If viewers leave because of the lack of a mute button, that is their right to do that, but I think overall, it would probably be more profitable for Twitch not to offer a mute button and lose a couple viewers than to offer one and lose ad revenue.
Your entitled attitude is what is disgusting here.
It's not their obligation but it could be in their own self interest if enough people finds it annoying. If you have two competitors with fairly equal value and one offers the function to mute the sound at any point, who do you think people will choose? I know multiple tv stations that have address this with their free content on-line. At first they didn't have any option to mute the commercials and now they do. Maybe there is a reason for this. If not anything else it gives people less incentive for people to have their adblock on. Also your logic is not valid, twitch would not lose ad-revenue because someone mutes the commercial...
On January 05 2012 17:35 Nizzy wrote: Just skimmed the OP and I'm not even sure this relates to the topic. I just wanted to say this to Twitch:
I hate it. It drives me INSANE, I get pissed off to the point where I just close streams now. The advertisements that don't have a mute option. Notables: -Fiat commercial with Jennifer Lopez, The chevy car dropping out of place commercial, some new one that I can't remember the name.
I pay around 125-150 for the full package of Television/movie channels and when a commercial is on, I can press mute. It's my right to have an option to turn the sound off. The fact that you don't include a mute option just disgusts me and makes me so mad. 90% of the times I watch streams besides things like MLG, GSL, I usually just have them on Mute. Meaning I don't even want to hear the viewers gameplay/talking. So why do you think I would want to hear an advertisement.
Twitch if you have a response that is something like 'we don't determine that' 'the ad companies do' then its your responsibility to take all this feedback and tell the ad companies, hey our viewers would like a mute option on every ad. 'ok so you don't agree, okay then we're not using you as an ad company.'
Yes no mute can be quite annoying on some commercials but I just wnated to point out that you paying for your TV/movie channels does not give you the option to mute the commercials. You paying for your TV does, just like how you paying for you computer gives you the option to turn off the volume.
If you feel this strongly about it keep your streams in seperate browsers, when an ad comes on feel free to mute that browser in the volume mixer so you can listen to another stream or music, or nothing at all. I feel grateful I only have to sit through a 15/30 second commercial every 15 mins, unlike watching TV(that like you said you're paying an assload for) where you sit through 3 minutes of commercials every 8 minutes.
Edit: Also I doubt that the advertising agencies would listen to something like that. The fact that you remember a Jennifer Lopez Fiat commercial shows that they're doing their jobs.
On Windows (Vista upwards), there should be a sndvol.exe in your Windows\System32\ folder. This exe is the volume mixer itself, without having to go through the systray volume controls. Now make a shortcut of it and assign a desired hotkey/-combination. This way you can save 50% of needed clicks
I'm a bit confused because I always understood the general idea that the effectiveness on ads varies depending on things like adblock, country etc. What I like about this post is the intention to include the information on add impressions in the broadcaster tools. The next step for me would be to get the broadcaster tools to the level (style?) of tournament broadcasting - when you play an add it plays "inside" the stream, it's recorded on the VOD (most of the time I watch twitch VODs, they are great), it can be muted with the stream but it can't be blocked. I feel like combining the "on top of a stream" and "inside the stream" would be great, also the VODs could use more advertising, bearing in mind all of this depends on the actual numbers you've gathered (it might be less effective).
Concerning the FXOBoSs controversy I really liked the idea of scaling back on the number of partnerships. I've heard rumours of twitch being a bit late on payments for the add revenue (progamers are used to that due to the way tournaments work, though) which I assumed might be caused by twitch being "overloaded" by partners. You could give streamers a deadline (a few months) to meet certain requirements to consolidate the number of partners, build up the stability of the service and maybe control the revenue via some "tiers" (IMHO some progamers are so popular they could use less stream revenue so that they have to actually compete at tournaments, But I guess that’s controlled by a nonlinear CPM already). I'd dare to say it's time to decide if you want to offer a high quality service for less people or probably less profitable service for almost anyone because it's not very reasonable to expect both increase in eCPM and accessibility.
I love how the possibly least shown ads are the most expensive. It`s allways been annoyance to look at overshown ads, but I would never have imagined that some companies actually have recognized that.
Didn't know that all this was some kind of debated issuie, I tought the add fill for partners at twitch and own3d was the thing people was talking about.
But a interesting and educatin post for people wanting to get a grips on web marketing.
I love your website a lot more than other streaming sites but there is one problem, when I go to justin.tv I can see all the people I follow that are online but I cant do that on twitch which is pretty disappointing because you have to switch site instead of just pressing the top left corner.
On January 05 2012 17:35 Nizzy wrote: Just skimmed the OP and I'm not even sure this relates to the topic. I just wanted to say this to Twitch:
I hate it. It drives me INSANE, I get pissed off to the point where I just close streams now. The advertisements that don't have a mute option. Notables: -Fiat commercial with Jennifer Lopez, The chevy car dropping out of place commercial, some new one that I can't remember the name.
I pay around 125-150 for the full package of Television/movie channels and when a commercial is on, I can press mute. It's my right to have an option to turn the sound off. The fact that you don't include a mute option just disgusts me and makes me so mad. 90% of the times I watch streams besides things like MLG, GSL, I usually just have them on Mute. Meaning I don't even want to hear the viewers gameplay/talking. So why do you think I would want to hear an advertisement.
Twitch if you have a response that is something like 'we don't determine that' 'the ad companies do' then its your responsibility to take all this feedback and tell the ad companies, hey our viewers would like a mute option on every ad. 'ok so you don't agree, okay then we're not using you as an ad company.'
It is not your right to have an option to turn the sound off on the site. Muting your TV is not analogous to muting a specific site because you still have the option to mute your entire computer. Twitch has no obligation to make it easier for you to ignore their ads. Viewers might want a mute option but that could very well be self-sacrificial for Twitch to provide. If viewers leave because of the lack of a mute button, that is their right to do that, but I think overall, it would probably be more profitable for Twitch not to offer a mute button and lose a couple viewers than to offer one and lose ad revenue.
Your entitled attitude is what is disgusting here.
no mute = adblock on. very good indeed, use your brain please, ok?
Huge bonus points for making your ad revenue system public. Hopefully this stops the rumours. TwitchTV proving that they are a huge factor for the growth of esports <3
I find the country thing most interesting. Like i disable the adblocks and stuff when i'm watching a stream i care about. Usually it's a player streaming, so i want them to get whatever money i can help them get because they're the reason ESPORTS exists, and they should get everythin, period. When i do though, the adds are really weird, and clearly not targetted to me. At least they're local though. But most if not all of them are cleaning products or bug sprays. Yes i do have a dishwasher, and yes i do occasionally clean things, and it is summer here so it's fly and flea season, but that's all a bit odd.
It feels like we still have a way to go before the adds become truly beneficial. I can tell you right now i've yet to buy any Raid or Finish. I liked watching the earlier MLGs because i'd get bombarded with American fast food commercials. At least when i was eating more unhealthily those products were somewhat relevant, even though the only one available here was the Dr Pepper (and even then it's not stocked as commonly as coke or pepsi is).
I hope this is just a country thing, what with NZ being very small and irrelevant. It just feels kinda sucky that i'm not actually able to contribute at all. Like at least with sponsors of a team/player i like, i can buy their product and tell them that i did so because of player/team X. The add thing feels like it could be doing a lot more.
- Ad blockers : Of course this is an issue and we are working on helping partners learn how many people are using ad blocker and educating people that using ad blocker is detrimental to folks who are trying to create great content and entertain people.
Derp. I vow that my existence will serve the purpose of denying ads as much as possible. If I want to watch starcraft, I want to watch starcraft - not garbage from company's that want me to buy their products.
Get off the internet with your ad revenue bull. It's just obnoxious is what it is.
I'm not sure if you are serious, a troll or 12.
Maybe a serious 12 year old troll?
You do realize all those SC2 casters you enjoy watching cast for the money right?
On January 05 2012 09:36 vinlin wrote: - Ad Impression: This is counted when a viewer *actually* sees an ad. Impressions are always less or equal to opportunities. Fill-rate: This is Ad Impressions divided by Ad Opportunities. In an ideal world, everyone sells every single Ad Opportunity to someone. This would mean 100% fill-rate. In the real world, because there are other variables like country of viewer, time of day, number of ads seen by a unique viewer, etc. the Fill-rate is always less than 100%.
Just a noob question: How is it determined whether a viewer actually sees an ad? For example, if an ad is muted, alt-tabbed, or in a different browser tab/window, is that still counted as a view?
Really interesting read. As was said in OP, it's stuff we somewhat knew but at the same time didn't know as it was never clearly stated.
I really like the idea of giving the broadcaster the power to choose when the ads kick in. It wasn't always like that and that was why I used adblock. Ads starting in the middle of a game is really frustrating and does influence my opinion negatively towards the brand that is advertised. Now that the broadcaster chooses when the ads kick in (usually in a lull in the stream), I am more inclined to disable adblock and my opinion on the brand showcased is usually neutral or positive instead plain negative.
Now I would love to see non-partners have the power to choose when ads kick in with no revenue. I stumbled on this reddit thread and it is a very interesting idea. I don't know if the advertising companies would be favorable to this or if it's something the streaming sites have to examine to see if it's viable.
Keep up the good work at twitch, I'm very please at how you've turned justin.tv from a shitty ad infested site into something that looks professional, has ads but are not intrusive.
On January 05 2012 09:36 vinlin wrote: - Ad Impression: This is counted when a viewer *actually* sees an ad. Impressions are always less or equal to opportunities. Fill-rate: This is Ad Impressions divided by Ad Opportunities. In an ideal world, everyone sells every single Ad Opportunity to someone. This would mean 100% fill-rate. In the real world, because there are other variables like country of viewer, time of day, number of ads seen by a unique viewer, etc. the Fill-rate is always less than 100%.
Just a noob question: How is it determined whether a viewer actually sees an ad? For example, if an ad is muted, alt-tabbed, or in a different browser tab/window, is that still counted as a view?
I would think that if the ad data is sent to the remote PC, it counts as an ad impression. They can't really know if you have it alt-tabbed, hidden behind a notepad or whatever. As for sound muted (computer option, off speakers or stream sound off), I don't think it affects it as you still get the ad. The only way they could know the sound is off is if your stream sound is off. But then again I am not a twitch employee so I don't know for sure.
edit: If you don't know how adblock works, it blocks the ad before it is sent to the remote PC. That's why they know how much people are using adblock.
It's nice to see some definitive from someone involved in this process instead of all the hear-say that goes on in chat rooms when someone even brings up the mention of ads or revenue. Now, if only I was good enough to actually be on the level where this applied to me, haha.
This might be a little off topic, but I can't stand it when the stream is muted and the ad is not. Is there any way to fix this? There are plenty of ads that simply cannot be muted, and this irks me
I find it odd that...As a US Streamer, you have to stream in prime time to make the maximum amount of money possible, because if foreign people are watching, they will be blocked from your adds....why can't you just run adds that are more suitable for them?
On January 05 2012 17:35 Nizzy wrote: Just skimmed the OP and I'm not even sure this relates to the topic. I just wanted to say this to Twitch:
I hate it. It drives me INSANE, I get pissed off to the point where I just close streams now. The advertisements that don't have a mute option. Notables: -Fiat commercial with Jennifer Lopez, The chevy car dropping out of place commercial, some new one that I can't remember the name.
I pay around 125-150 for the full package of Television/movie channels and when a commercial is on, I can press mute. It's my right to have an option to turn the sound off. The fact that you don't include a mute option just disgusts me and makes me so mad. 90% of the times I watch streams besides things like MLG, GSL, I usually just have them on Mute. Meaning I don't even want to hear the viewers gameplay/talking. So why do you think I would want to hear an advertisement.
Twitch if you have a response that is something like 'we don't determine that' 'the ad companies do' then its your responsibility to take all this feedback and tell the ad companies, hey our viewers would like a mute option on every ad. 'ok so you don't agree, okay then we're not using you as an ad company.'
It is not your right to have an option to turn the sound off on the site. Muting your TV is not analogous to muting a specific site because you still have the option to mute your entire computer. Twitch has no obligation to make it easier for you to ignore their ads. Viewers might want a mute option but that could very well be self-sacrificial for Twitch to provide. If viewers leave because of the lack of a mute button, that is their right to do that, but I think overall, it would probably be more profitable for Twitch not to offer a mute button and lose a couple viewers than to offer one and lose ad revenue.
Your entitled attitude is what is disgusting here.
your reasoning is slightly flawed, the correct analogy is logically impossible because its apples and oranges, the computer is a multi purpose machine, whereas the TV has one role. The ability to mute your TV does not mute or disrupt other activities, quite to the contrary muting the TV likely helps one perform other activities if they are in wont to mute it.
Conversely, turning the sound off your computer may have either deleterious or directly negative effects on the myriad of other activities a person could be doing,
you might be a in a situation where its okay to listen music because your studying, but its inappropriate to watch a stream and the inability to mute causes the ad to play and therefore blows your cover, in that situation the multi purpose nature of the computer is at play, whereas the muting of the single purpose device such as the TV is not.
- Ad blockers : Of course this is an issue and we are working on helping partners learn how many people are using ad blocker and educating people that using ad blocker is detrimental to folks who are trying to create great content and entertain people.
Derp. I vow that my existence will serve the purpose of denying ads as much as possible. If I want to watch starcraft, I want to watch starcraft - not garbage from company's that want me to buy their products.
Get off the internet with your ad revenue bull. It's just obnoxious is what it is.
There would be no starcraft to watch if not for some garbage from compan"ies" that want you to buy their products.
On January 05 2012 17:22 Celial wrote: LOL @ the guy who said "twitch going to die in a few months"
Twitch is supposed to have a low fill rate. Okay, thats great from Twitchs perspective, bad from streamer perspective. It simply means Twitch maxes out all capped advertisers extremely fast. It also means that Twitch has quite a few capping advertisers (and those usually mean big bucks) and not that many uncapped ones.
Now if big streamers leave, its STILL no problem for Twitch. Their filler rate goes up, so what. They still blow out all caps every day, the advertisers are happy and stay. Streamers are happy too because their filler rate goes up. Sure, Twitch wont be that happy because their reach is getting reduced, but as long as they dont reach dangerously high filler rates, no problem for them.
i like how all the pepople talking about twitches low fill rate etc have absolutely no way of knowing if this is true or not.
as was pointed out a few pages back, a US streamer who streams at EU times might find they get less money than they thought etc etc. some guy saying on stream "i get less money than i thought i would" doesnt mean shit.
Cool post, it is one thing to try and imagine what revenue models are being used, and another to know for sure when a staff member tells you. I enjoyed the ad primer too!
i use adblocker because is annoying getting spammed with ads every pause they have. Not to mention the 3 ad button own3d has.
Also when deciding if i want to watch a stream i dont want to wait 30sec for a commercial to pass. I rather click between streams much faster to find the one i want to watch.
It would be nice if you gave the viewer some controls also and not just the streamer. For example if we could select how many ads we want to view per 30min or 1 hour. I wouldnt mind commercials if viewers had control of how much they were willing to watch.
On January 05 2012 17:22 Celial wrote: LOL @ the guy who said "twitch going to die in a few months"
Twitch is supposed to have a low fill rate. Okay, thats great from Twitchs perspective, bad from streamer perspective. It simply means Twitch maxes out all capped advertisers extremely fast. It also means that Twitch has quite a few capping advertisers (and those usually mean big bucks) and not that many uncapped ones.
Now if big streamers leave, its STILL no problem for Twitch. Their filler rate goes up, so what. They still blow out all caps every day, the advertisers are happy and stay. Streamers are happy too because their filler rate goes up. Sure, Twitch wont be that happy because their reach is getting reduced, but as long as they dont reach dangerously high filler rates, no problem for them.
i dont think you understand what fill rates are. low fill rates are bad because you are not showing ads where you could. for instance, any given page/stream could be set up to display 10 ads, but only 3 end up showing. the fill rate, then, is 30%, and you only get paid for the 3 ads that show, and not the 7 that could've potentially made more revenue.
put into an sc2 analogy, fill rate = mineral saturation. you ideally want 2+ drones mining each mineral patch to maximize income. if you had 5 drones mining 8 patches of minerals, you'd say you have a low fill rate, and poor income. and in the advertising world, you get paid for what ads you show, not how many you can support.
KEVIN... what's your policy on CPC? Do you support clickable ads and offer revenue share on these?
One thing that has always bothered me about ads, and which I'm certain leads to more people adblocking content is that adverts are run when the streamer starts one, instead of when the individual user reaches the point of the video that the streamer was at when they started the ad.
When we're specifically talking about SC2 streams, this will quite often mean that the end of games gets cut off unles the streamer has a seperate window where they can watch their own stream to advert at the right time, and even then if someone is a little behind (which isn't exactly uncommon) they still have the same problem.
I'm sure fixing this would help the ad impressions for any company who could do it. Also, thanks for the OP, was a very interesting read and lead to a fairly interesting thread.
On January 05 2012 11:36 Innovation wrote: I am a senior analyst for a major advertising agency which has used twitch.tv among others in the past to place our in-stream video ads. I just want to confirm that what he is saying is true and to give some additional information from our perspective on how you can improve your fill rate or eCPM.
1.) Keep it PG and non controvercial...many brands won't run on UGC (User Generated Content) for the reason that it is difficult to guarantee brand safety. Those brands that will utilize UGC often will implement verification technology that moniters page content, and even has begun to moniter video content and will automatically block the ad from running.
2.) As mentioned previously ads are often regional or national so you will often only get ads fullfilled if your watchers are within that region. For those who live and stream in the United States you will get the highest fullfill rate if you stream at high volume time periods for your region. AKA clost to primetime hours. 5 - 10 PM pacific. If you are streaming late at night or early morning and have a tone of viewers but are getting very low eCPM it's because they are probably international and blocked from recieving ads
3.) Ask your users regularly to turn off ad-blockers, if you're making the effort to create a good product for them then they should be willing to help you out by turning off ad-blocking.
4.) Most cookies are perfectly safe and are what advertisers utilize to behavioral and demo target users with relevant content. A lot of the gaming community is tech saavy and probably clear their cookies regularly. This is no longer a safety issue and most consumers would receive a better web surfing experience if they did not clear their cookies. behavioraly targeted ads should have an icon in the top left or right corner of the ad that you can click and opt out of if you're concerned with tracking. It looks like a small triangle with a lower case i in it.
5.) A 50% rev share is an amazing deal. Google won't share their rates and it works out to something closer to 1% if you're lucky.
I have to say, the high-frequency ads are a big issue from my perspective as a viewer. I live in Australia, which obviously mustn't have a very well developed market for this stuff, and I have never once seen more than one unique ad per day.
That means every time my streamer hits the ad button, I see the same ad. Over. And over. And over. Can you imagine how frustrating that is when it's one of the really obnoxious ones? Yesterday it was some piece of crap dog food thing with a screeching banshee of a cartoon woman. By the 20th rep I'd almost torn my ears off.
I say this because I think twitch et al. might underestimate the damage this kind of thing does to their fill rates. I'm intentionally not using ad-blockers because I want to help the person I'm watching, but I'm realising that my goodwill doesn't extend to putting myself through physical pain.
Please, give me more variety in the ads I see as a viewer in a low-content region, or for the love of God put a cap on how many times I see the same ad per X minutes. It's infinitely better to have viewers like me see less ads per day but keep watching, than push us to turn on an ad-blocker.
On January 06 2012 07:44 snowhell wrote: i use adblocker because is annoying getting spammed with ads every pause they have. Not to mention the 3 ad button own3d has.
Also when deciding if i want to watch a stream i dont want to wait 30sec for a commercial to pass. I rather click between streams much faster to find the one i want to watch.
It would be nice if you gave the viewer some controls also and not just the streamer. For example if we could select how many ads we want to view per 30min or 1 hour. I wouldnt mind commercials if viewers had control of how much they were willing to watch.
Thats an absolute terrible attitude to have regarding the growth of esports. How can you complain about seeing 2-3 ads when the streamer is in between games. Do you really want to sit there and stare at the find match button and wait for the countdown? When you could instead be helping the streamer, and in essence help build a bigger more prosperous industry?
You want the luxury to be able to quickly click between streams, yet you do not even realise that without ads, there would be NO decent streams to even click through. It's a sad mentality to have.
On January 06 2012 11:04 Kilos wrote: When can you get partnered? Do you start off partnered? Or once you stream regularly and have viewers, they will contact you or something?
For partner reqs and faqs, go here and here. So basically, if you fill the requirements (or if you're somekind of big personality), send your application and they will review it and see if they can grant you or not the partnership.
- Ad blockers : Of course this is an issue and we are working on helping partners learn how many people are using ad blocker and educating people that using ad blocker is detrimental to folks who are trying to create great content and entertain people.
Derp. I vow that my existence will serve the purpose of denying ads as much as possible. If I want to watch starcraft, I want to watch starcraft - not garbage from company's that want me to buy their products.
Get off the internet with your ad revenue bull. It's just obnoxious is what it is.
There would be no starcraft to watch if not for some garbage from compan"ies" that want you to buy their products.
Get off the internet with your stupid logic.
How about you get off of it? There were streams before the ads money and there are still streams without ad money.
I haven't seen an ad since watching youtube videos. That's because I'm in Korea though. I wish I could watch ads to support streamers, but no matter how many times I turn "adblock" off or anything I still can't see any "Korean" related streamer ads.
On January 06 2012 10:30 Belisarius wrote: I have to say, the high-frequency ads are a big issue from my perspective as a viewer. I live in Australia, which obviously mustn't have a very well developed market for this stuff, and I have never once seen more than one unique ad per day.
That means every time my streamer hits the ad button, I see the same ad. Over. And over. And over. Can you imagine how frustrating that is when it's one of the really obnoxious ones? Yesterday it was some piece of crap dog food thing with a screeching banshee of a cartoon woman. By the 20th rep I'd almost torn my ears off.
I say this because I think twitch et al. might underestimate the damage this kind of thing does to their fill rates. I'm intentionally not using ad-blockers because I want to help the person I'm watching, but I'm realising that my goodwill doesn't extend to putting myself through physical pain.
Please, give me more variety in the ads I see as a viewer in a low-content region, or for the love of God put a cap on how many times I see the same ad per X minutes. It's infinitely better to have viewers like me see less ads per day but keep watching, than push us to turn on an ad-blocker.
OMFG That fucking woman screaming was so loud as well. About double the volume of the stream (which I had at max) It's safe to say, I will never buy that product, because I have seen that ad about 20 times yesterday. The last few weeks a certain "premum beer" has been advertised constantly on twitch. I can comfortably say i've seen the ad 150 times. I think a max view count would be a great addition.
I keep getting an advert on twitch for a car. Must have seen it a hundred times, still cant remember what make or model. I struggle to see why anyone would buy a car based on an advert. The things are so expensive that you're gonna do some research before you buy one.
The same applies to anything. You don't buy a Razor mouse because of an advert, you go to google and look up "gaming mice review" and read for an hour. Eventually you will find one that matches your requirements.
Adverts are an old idea now. User reviews found on the internet will show which products to go for and which to avoid. Without adverts, companies will be forced to make higher quality products so that when compared to the competition they end up standing out.
I dont blame people for blocking adverts. They're often annoying and of no relevance. Especially with modern browsers blocking tracking cookies.
On January 06 2012 20:11 Rye. wrote: I keep getting an advert on twitch for a car. Must have seen it a hundred times, still cant remember what make or model. I struggle to see why anyone would buy a car based on an advert. The things are so expensive that you're gonna do some research before you buy one.
The same applies to anything. You don't buy a Razor mouse because of an advert, you go to google and look up "gaming mice review" and read for an hour. Eventually you will find one that matches your requirements.
Adverts are an old idea now. User reviews found on the internet will show which products to go for and which to avoid. Without adverts, companies will be forced to make higher quality products so that when compared to the competition they end up standing out.
I dont blame people for blocking adverts. They're often annoying and of no relevance. Especially with modern browsers blocking tracking cookies.
I think there are other issues if you can't remember the brand of the car after seeing the ad 100x times over. I don't think they expect any1 to buy a car solely on the Ad, all they want is that you at least consider their car when you do your research.
There's nothing old about Ads.
They still work tremendously well. It's all about brand awareness (mostly at a subconscious level) the content of the Ad is almost irrelevant which is probably why most brands make stupid ads.
On January 06 2012 20:11 Rye. wrote: I keep getting an advert on twitch for a car. Must have seen it a hundred times, still cant remember what make or model. I struggle to see why anyone would buy a car based on an advert. The things are so expensive that you're gonna do some research before you buy one.
The same applies to anything. You don't buy a Razor mouse because of an advert, you go to google and look up "gaming mice review" and read for an hour. Eventually you will find one that matches your requirements.
Adverts are an old idea now. User reviews found on the internet will show which products to go for and which to avoid. Without adverts, companies will be forced to make higher quality products so that when compared to the competition they end up standing out.
I dont blame people for blocking adverts. They're often annoying and of no relevance. Especially with modern browsers blocking tracking cookies.
The main goal is not to convince you to buy the product, but making the product's presence known. While ultimately you do some research before settling on purchasing, you're going to research the first items that come into your mind. They don't need you to buy their product now. They just need you to think of "them" whenever you think you do in the future.
Well i am actually looking for a car at the moment. I wont be buying new as i'm not that rich, but i do want something nice. Ive already looked at user reviews and statistics of some cars and its looking like im going to get a ford mondeo or an audi A4 if i want to spend a bit more money. Either way, adverts did not play a part in my choice. If Pergeot want me to buy their car, they'd better make their cars better.
As for not remembering what is in an ad, its because i've been exposed to ads for so long that my brain recognizes that they are not worth remembering. Think about yourself. When you last watched TV what happened when the ads came on? Did you watch them intently? or did you make a cup of tea or quickly check your computer and refresh the TL forum? Even my dad who likes and watches TV quite a lot, even he mutes the adverts and talks to whoever is in the room. People are consciously and unconsciously avoiding adverts because they know not to listen to them.
The main goal is not to convince you to buy the product, but making the product's presence known. While ultimately you do some research before settling on purchasing, you're going to research the first items that come into your mind. They don't need you to buy their product now. They just need you to think of "them" whenever you think you do in the future.
I would never search for reviews of something i saw in an advert. I would search for the product type, eg "Mouse reviews" "monitor reviews" etc.. when i needed or wanted to buy one. Can you say you do differently? Ultimately the ONLY thing that would make me buy something is the quality of the product, and this is the direction everyone should want things to go. It means better competition and better quality products. You cant just rely on a name that has been built up over years.
Thank you so much, Kevin, for this informative piece on how online advertising to streaming material works. I would have never guessed the per-day ad saturation figures in so much in the price of the ad. Wish you and your team the best of luck attracting the cream of the crop companies into advertising with you. Hope to see you again at an MLG or NASL.
I've been wondering why my old streaming account, with justin.tv , seems so out of style when all the cool kids seem to be with twitch.tv now. Why is twitch.tv looking to be most popular now, because of easy ad revenue?
I've been wondering why my old streaming account, with justin.tv , seems so out of style when all the cool kids seem to be with twitch.tv now. Why is twitch.tv looking to be most popular now, because of easy ad revenue?
Justin.tv has been a really awesome supporter of eSports and done a lot of good for the community. I don't think you have anything to be ashamed of just because twitch.tv feels like the flavor of the month. I don't know the specific differences in terms of stream partnerships but I can tell you that Justin.tv is an excellent partner either way.
On January 06 2012 21:50 Rye. wrote: Well i am actually looking for a car at the moment. I wont be buying new as i'm not that rich, but i do want something nice. Ive already looked at user reviews and statistics of some cars and its looking like im going to get a ford mondeo or an audi A4 if i want to spend a bit more money. Either way, adverts did not play a part in my choice. If Pergeot want me to buy their car, they'd better make their cars better.
As for not remembering what is in an ad, its because i've been exposed to ads for so long that my brain recognizes that they are not worth remembering. Think about yourself. When you last watched TV what happened when the ads came on? Did you watch them intently? or did you make a cup of tea or quickly check your computer and refresh the TL forum? Even my dad who likes and watches TV quite a lot, even he mutes the adverts and talks to whoever is in the room. People are consciously and unconsciously avoiding adverts because they know not to listen to them.
The main goal is not to convince you to buy the product, but making the product's presence known. While ultimately you do some research before settling on purchasing, you're going to research the first items that come into your mind. They don't need you to buy their product now. They just need you to think of "them" whenever you think you do in the future.
I would never search for reviews of something i saw in an advert. I would search for the product type, eg "Mouse reviews" "monitor reviews" etc.. when i needed or wanted to buy one. Can you say you do differently? Ultimately the ONLY thing that would make me buy something is the quality of the product, and this is the direction everyone should want things to go. It means better competition and better quality products. You cant just rely on a name that has been built up over years.
one of the hottest topics in the advertising world today as well as since inception is the conversion rate. how effectively can you convince an ad viewer to buy into what the ad is trying to sell? conversion rates are usually very low, where some ads might require 10K~100K (or even 1M) impressions before just one person decide to purchase the goods/services advertised.
there is a lot of research going on, by gathering spending patterns, demographics, etc in order to figure out how to increase the conversion rate, and even with all that constant research, conversion rates are still low. therefore, it really is no surprise that someone like yourself is 'not affected' by ads when it comes to advertising a particular car online. but it's no surprise if, to some other person, they happen to like the car and buy it. statistically, there will be thousands of people who are like you to just one person who takes the bait.
when it comes to ads, it's not just you. it's about the whole, and the stats that back up correlations between advertisement and consumer behavior. if people advertised to cater to you and only you, they'd need a 10,000% conversion rate. of course that percentage is arbitrary, but you get the point.
Thanks Innovation for the speedy and informed response. IIRC I joined up with Justin.tv because they had supported some eSports thing or something (and since I barely watch all the SCII events I wouldn't know who's the big'un nowadays). It's just a little annoying because now I need to register a new account to use stream chat rooms for most streams ^^;
On January 06 2012 10:30 Belisarius wrote: I have to say, the high-frequency ads are a big issue from my perspective as a viewer. I live in Australia, which obviously mustn't have a very well developed market for this stuff, and I have never once seen more than one unique ad per day.
That means every time my streamer hits the ad button, I see the same ad. Over. And over. And over. Can you imagine how frustrating that is when it's one of the really obnoxious ones? Yesterday it was some piece of crap dog food thing with a screeching banshee of a cartoon woman. By the 20th rep I'd almost torn my ears off.
I say this because I think twitch et al. might underestimate the damage this kind of thing does to their fill rates. I'm intentionally not using ad-blockers because I want to help the person I'm watching, but I'm realising that my goodwill doesn't extend to putting myself through physical pain.
Please, give me more variety in the ads I see as a viewer in a low-content region, or for the love of God put a cap on how many times I see the same ad per X minutes. It's infinitely better to have viewers like me see less ads per day but keep watching, than push us to turn on an ad-blocker.
OMFG That fucking woman screaming was so loud as well. About double the volume of the stream (which I had at max) It's safe to say, I will never buy that product, because I have seen that ad about 20 times yesterday. The last few weeks a certain "premum beer" has been advertised constantly on twitch. I can comfortably say i've seen the ad 150 times. I think a max view count would be a great addition.
OH GOD SHE'S STILL THERE.
That's it. I'm turning on an ad blocker. I'm sorry. It's been three or four days and I've seen that ad at least 100 times, without exaggeration. I'm done. Maybe I'll come out from under the bed next week.
On January 06 2012 10:30 Belisarius wrote: I have to say, the high-frequency ads are a big issue from my perspective as a viewer. I live in Australia, which obviously mustn't have a very well developed market for this stuff, and I have never once seen more than one unique ad per day.
That means every time my streamer hits the ad button, I see the same ad. Over. And over. And over. Can you imagine how frustrating that is when it's one of the really obnoxious ones? Yesterday it was some piece of crap dog food thing with a screeching banshee of a cartoon woman. By the 20th rep I'd almost torn my ears off.
I say this because I think twitch et al. might underestimate the damage this kind of thing does to their fill rates. I'm intentionally not using ad-blockers because I want to help the person I'm watching, but I'm realising that my goodwill doesn't extend to putting myself through physical pain.
Please, give me more variety in the ads I see as a viewer in a low-content region, or for the love of God put a cap on how many times I see the same ad per X minutes. It's infinitely better to have viewers like me see less ads per day but keep watching, than push us to turn on an ad-blocker.
OMFG That fucking woman screaming was so loud as well. About double the volume of the stream (which I had at max) It's safe to say, I will never buy that product, because I have seen that ad about 20 times yesterday. The last few weeks a certain "premum beer" has been advertised constantly on twitch. I can comfortably say i've seen the ad 150 times. I think a max view count would be a great addition.
OH GOD SHE'S STILL THERE.
That's it. I'm turning on an ad blocker. I'm sorry. It's been three or four days and I've seen that ad at least 100 times, without exaggeration. I'm done. Maybe I'll come out from under the bed next week.
Well according to the post, they don't get much if you watch it more than a couple of time a day, so if you can't stand it, just watch it like three times every day you watch a stream, and then turn on adblock to keep your sanity intact. Sounds like a smart thing for countries with less ads.
"- How many ads a viewer has seen each day: If you as a viewer have been to other video sites or even other channels and see other video ads before arriving at a partner channel, then whatever ad you see on the current channel you're viewing will be lower in CPM value than the first ad you saw that day. Most big brands frequency cap video ads at 1 per 24 hrs, which means you should only see their ad once per day as a unique viewer. So as you see more video ads through the day, the value of the ad decreases. "
On January 06 2012 10:30 Belisarius wrote: I have to say, the high-frequency ads are a big issue from my perspective as a viewer. I live in Australia, which obviously mustn't have a very well developed market for this stuff, and I have never once seen more than one unique ad per day.
That means every time my streamer hits the ad button, I see the same ad. Over. And over. And over. Can you imagine how frustrating that is when it's one of the really obnoxious ones? Yesterday it was some piece of crap dog food thing with a screeching banshee of a cartoon woman. By the 20th rep I'd almost torn my ears off.
I say this because I think twitch et al. might underestimate the damage this kind of thing does to their fill rates. I'm intentionally not using ad-blockers because I want to help the person I'm watching, but I'm realising that my goodwill doesn't extend to putting myself through physical pain.
Please, give me more variety in the ads I see as a viewer in a low-content region, or for the love of God put a cap on how many times I see the same ad per X minutes. It's infinitely better to have viewers like me see less ads per day but keep watching, than push us to turn on an ad-blocker.
OMFG That fucking woman screaming was so loud as well. About double the volume of the stream (which I had at max) It's safe to say, I will never buy that product, because I have seen that ad about 20 times yesterday. The last few weeks a certain "premum beer" has been advertised constantly on twitch. I can comfortably say i've seen the ad 150 times. I think a max view count would be a great addition.
OH GOD SHE'S STILL THERE.
That's it. I'm turning on an ad blocker. I'm sorry. It's been three or four days and I've seen that ad at least 100 times, without exaggeration. I'm done. Maybe I'll come out from under the bed next week.
AHA I saw it last night, and just thought to myself oh god he's going to go out and hang himself. Seriously, its a really obnoxious ad though.
On January 06 2012 21:50 Rye. wrote: Well i am actually looking for a car at the moment. I wont be buying new as i'm not that rich, but i do want something nice. Ive already looked at user reviews and statistics of some cars and its looking like im going to get a ford mondeo or an audi A4 if i want to spend a bit more money. Either way, adverts did not play a part in my choice. If Pergeot want me to buy their car, they'd better make their cars better.
As for not remembering what is in an ad, its because i've been exposed to ads for so long that my brain recognizes that they are not worth remembering. Think about yourself. When you last watched TV what happened when the ads came on? Did you watch them intently? or did you make a cup of tea or quickly check your computer and refresh the TL forum? Even my dad who likes and watches TV quite a lot, even he mutes the adverts and talks to whoever is in the room. People are consciously and unconsciously avoiding adverts because they know not to listen to them.
The main goal is not to convince you to buy the product, but making the product's presence known. While ultimately you do some research before settling on purchasing, you're going to research the first items that come into your mind. They don't need you to buy their product now. They just need you to think of "them" whenever you think you do in the future.
I would never search for reviews of something i saw in an advert. I would search for the product type, eg "Mouse reviews" "monitor reviews" etc.. when i needed or wanted to buy one. Can you say you do differently? Ultimately the ONLY thing that would make me buy something is the quality of the product, and this is the direction everyone should want things to go. It means better competition and better quality products. You cant just rely on a name that has been built up over years.
please remember that you are 1 person. if you want to use personal anecdotes to prove a sweeping generalization, then i can provide you with some too. for example, at the company i work for, we generate about 10% of enquiries from adverts placed in newspapers and TV ads. Just because a lot of people turn their minds off adverts when they come on doesn't mean adverts don't work. You're not meant to watch them intently anyway. They are supposed to be a background thing that just makes you AWARE of their existence. Not all advertisement is bad you know. Especially in the case of sc2 since you know that each advertisement is supporting the player. They may be of no relevance to my interests, but I feel satisfied that I'm supporting the player and Esports in general, no matter how small the contribution is. Really how hard is it to open a new browser and surf the net or go on your phone for 30 seconds in between sc2 games when the player is showing a 'Find Match' screen anyway
On January 07 2012 07:33 bITt.mAN wrote: I've been wondering why my old streaming account, with justin.tv , seems so out of style when all the cool kids seem to be with twitch.tv now. Why is twitch.tv looking to be most popular now, because of easy ad revenue?
I believe Twitch is a subsidiary of JustinTV. At least, I signed up on Justin.TV and now stream through Twitch... if you go to http://www.justin.tv/rensc2/ it auto-redirects to http://www.twitch.tv/rensc2/ so you're still one of the cool kids. I think they made it as their gaming stream site while they make justin.tv more general.
To Twitch.TV Reps, do you guys give your advertisers the option to limit advertisements to one per hr (2hrs, 3hrs, 4hrs, 15min, 30 min, etc) instead of just 1/day? It seems like there should be a sweet spot between the people who do once per day and then those who play over and over and over again. People tend to get annoyed at the repeating commercials and offering the 1 per hr option may intice advertisers to pay a little more per ad and be less annoying at the same time.
On January 06 2012 20:11 Rye. wrote: Adverts are an old idea now. User reviews found on the internet will show which products to go for and which to avoid. Without adverts, companies will be forced to make higher quality products so that when compared to the competition they end up standing out.
Haha, thats pretty naive. Theres jobs just to build up online personalities to make biased reviews. I met a girl in Seoul who does exactly this all day every day, she gets payed by the companys to make good reviews for them or bad reviews for the others (she called it bad mouth good mouth review). I'm not to sure about reviews in the western hemisphere, but in east asia this is pretty big, I've read sever such reviews myself, wasn't to hard to detect that they were a set up, but maybe others are better, I don't know.
For me reviews often suck anyway, bullshit oppinions from uninformed idiots.
On January 06 2012 20:11 Rye. wrote: I keep getting an advert on twitch for a car. Must have seen it a hundred times, still cant remember what make or model. I struggle to see why anyone would buy a car based on an advert. The things are so expensive that you're gonna do some research before you buy one.
The same applies to anything. You don't buy a Razor mouse because of an advert, you go to google and look up "gaming mice review" and read for an hour. Eventually you will find one that matches your requirements.
Adverts are an old idea now. User reviews found on the internet will show which products to go for and which to avoid. Without adverts, companies will be forced to make higher quality products so that when compared to the competition they end up standing out.
I dont blame people for blocking adverts. They're often annoying and of no relevance. Especially with modern browsers blocking tracking cookies.
This is true for young people. Not so much for the older/wealthier ones.
Middle-aged and older people are still a very effective crowd for direct commercials. They also have more money, so they are less likely to research and more likely to do an impulse buy.
But even that area is waning. The best advert is and has always been - making a badass product
One question: I use Google Chrome. Its ad blocker does not block videos ads. Should I still turn off the ad blocker or can it remain turned on since it does not affect video ads?
"- Frequency Cap - High paying advertisers usually only allow companies to show their ad 1-3 times per day to a unique viewer. This is to prevent over-exposure of their brand and ensure higher performance. Frequency caps can be as low as none (as in they will allow a company to show their ad as many times as possible) or 1 per day. The ones you see over and over are usually the lower paying CPM ads. "
Ive seen the same ad maybe 100 times on a single day during some MLG. Because Twitch only had one single ad for my country.
If everyone thought like you no streamer would make money and hence nobody would stream. By not watching ads you're actually harming your opportunities to watch Starcraft all at the gain of getting to see someone queuing for another ladder game.
To everyone who's making this false statement: Sure, there would be LESS streamers, but there would still be streamers. People were streaming high-level play even before these partnerships sprung into existence. It's a good way to pump your own ego ("2000 people are watching ME play a video game!"), a good way to improve your brand, and a good way to contribute to the community.
Unless, of course, you think that those who stream have no interest in the community whatsoever. I like to have a little faith in people.
If everyone thought like you no streamer would make money and hence nobody would stream. By not watching ads you're actually harming your opportunities to watch Starcraft all at the gain of getting to see someone queuing for another ladder game.
To everyone who's making this false statement: Sure, there would be LESS streamers, but there would still be streamers. People were streaming high-level play even before these partnerships sprung into existence. It's a good way to pump your own ego ("2000 people are watching ME play a video game!"), a good way to improve your brand, and a good way to contribute to the community.
Unless, of course, you think that those who stream have no interest in the community whatsoever. I like to have a little faith in people.
Since the minimum requirements for revenue sharing are extreme high, 99% of the streamer will never be able to participate, but they are still streaming for fun, entertainment or even getting help from the viewers.
**Revenue Share** works like this: For every ad, the platform and the broadcaster share in the revenue. For example, if the platform sells a $20 CPM (cost per thousand impressions) ad, the broadcaster receives $10 for every thousand viewers who see that ad.
**Flat-Rate** works like this: The broadcaster is compensated at a specific CPM per ad, $5 being a popular rate. So, in this case, if the platform sells a $20 CPM ad, the broadcaster receives exactly $5 per thousand viewers who see that ad, and the company keeps the remaining $15.
Am I the only one confused by this? I think the explanation could be more clear - I'm assuming the real difference is tied to how much the CPM is in each situation? Otherwise the 2nd option seems uniformly worse.
If the ad put out is $7 CPM, then the streamer on flat rate gets $5 as usual, and the company only gets $2, while under the sharing revenue sharing, they'd both get $3.50. Basically the streamer doesn't care about the individual CPMs on the ads because they always get their flat rate regardless under the flat rate model. They don't get any of the risk of the company improving or not.
The flat rate is like putting money into a savings account at a bank, you can't lose your money, and you get an interest rate. If you put it into the stock market, you can lose everything, but you can also get a lot bigger return on your money if the company does well.
I don't know about most of you pissing into the wind saying I'm killing Esports but the internet has been around for quite some time now... and guess what, it didn't have ads in the start. You know why? People didn't have the bandwidth to spare.
I'll pass on ads, and I'll help E-sports flourish in the process. Things evolve with love and care, not money.
You are endorsing a money farming machine. Not Esports.
Wake up children. Block ads. They will continue to operate regardless.
Only thing I'd request is that when I mute the stream (perhaps I'm not listening to it right then, I'm talking on the phone, etc.), please keep the ads muted too! It's super annoying to have a stream on in the background only to have it broken in by somebody's mom singing about how many times she needs to wash her laundry to get rid of a stain. And super LOUD, too.
I don't mind ads and I don't run a block, but FFS, allow me as the consumer to control the volume of the stream and the commercial simultaneously!
On January 09 2012 11:19 Frozne wrote: I don't know about most of you pissing into the wind saying I'm killing Esports but the internet has been around for quite some time now... and guess what, it didn't have ads in the start. You know why? People didn't have the bandwidth to spare.
I'll pass on ads, and I'll help E-sports flourish in the process. Things evolve with love and care, not money.
You are endorsing a money farming machine. Not Esports.
Wake up children. Block ads. They will continue to operate regardless.
You are the one getting bent over and hosed george and you link me something as pathetic as the concept of free riderism.
Way to highlight exactly why I use adblock. I'll keep them in the cage and the key in my pocket rather than put myself in the cage and give them the key.
On January 09 2012 11:19 Frozne wrote: I don't know about most of you pissing into the wind saying I'm killing Esports but the internet has been around for quite some time now... and guess what, it didn't have ads in the start. You know why? People didn't have the bandwidth to spare.
I'll pass on ads, and I'll help E-sports flourish in the process. Things evolve with love and care, not money.
You are endorsing a money farming machine. Not Esports.
Wake up children. Block ads. They will continue to operate regardless.
Amen, the only ones getting rich and "growing" are Gillette and JTV. They are basically throwing the scraps onto the floor and making Destiny and idra work out who takes home what. Like all broadcasting, the people creating the content have to do all the work to earn the least money.
Hey guys we ran out of commercial ideas so lets start a contest for the entire nation and we'll only pay 1 guy that we decide is the winner and in the process get thousands of ideas for free.
YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
You are getting the broader picture of the world now, yes?
Sorry back on topic. Either farm for yourself or get farmed on. You are leveling these companies income under the guise of "don't kill esports". More viewers = more big contracts with companies like pepsi. Companies with endless funds for advertising derp derp derp. That's called yacht money friends. Not house money. Not car money. Not mansion money. Yacht money.
Propaganda at its finest. Keep getting farmed people.
Is watching ads that big of a deal that you aren't willing to watch it to even help the streamers out? I mean, if everyone thinks like that, they will never get any money.
Regarding bandwidth, they are pausing the stream in a sense to run the add; if you are not watching the add, you are still watching the stream and are still consuming bandwidth. So, bandwidth 'costs' are moot.
A streamer is receiving 50% of all the revenue that is being generated, so to me, it seems fair. While the streamer has to produce the content, TwitchTV and their like have to have the bandwidth to supply all of us with that wonderful entertainment.
On January 09 2012 11:19 Frozne wrote: I don't know about most of you pissing into the wind saying I'm killing Esports but the internet has been around for quite some time now... and guess what, it didn't have ads in the start. You know why? People didn't have the bandwidth to spare.
I'll pass on ads, and I'll help E-sports flourish in the process. Things evolve with love and care, not money.
You are endorsing a money farming machine. Not Esports.
Wake up children. Block ads. They will continue to operate regardless.
Amen, the only ones getting rich and "growing" are Gillette and JTV. They are basically throwing the scraps onto the floor and making Destiny and idra work out who takes home what. Like all broadcasting, the people creating the content have to do all the work to earn the least money.
Yes, because Destiny and Idra are capable of maintaining the equipment necessary to stream to 20,000 people simultaneously? And they have the skills to negotiate with pepsi, fiat, and chevrolet to make money on ads? And they're doing so much work doing something that they would do anyways?
50% revenue sharing is incredibly good if you qualify.
Thanks for putting this out there, it's important for people to understand how it works!
Here is my question: I bought the Justin.TV app on my iPod touch, and there are never any ads at all, how is this factored in? Are streamers seeing any money from my one-time fee?
On January 09 2012 13:18 Frozne wrote: Sorry back on topic. Either farm for yourself or get farmed on. You are leveling these companies income under the guise of "don't kill esports". More viewers = more big contracts with companies like pepsi. Companies with endless funds for advertising derp derp derp. That's called yacht money friends. Not house money. Not car money. Not mansion money. Yacht money.
Propaganda at its finest. Keep getting farmed people.
You don't seem to understand anything that is going on at all. When you block ads it doesn't effect Pepsi, Fiat, or whoever is advertising AT ALL. It only effects Twitch.tv (who are providing you a service free of charge) and even more whoever is providing the content you are watching (eg: Day[9]). No matter what happens the advertiser RECEIVES NOTHING for advertising, if you watch their ad it COSTS THEM MONEY. If you don't like ludicrously profitable companies then watch all the ads you can and don't buy any of their products.
If you are doing your level best to stop people streaming for free, then continue on your present path, because they are the only people effected by your current actions.
On January 09 2012 20:08 Frozne wrote: Why would I waste time validating these companies existence if I dislike them?
I'd rather ignore all their ads and purchase the products I like based on my own personal experiences.
The only people currently effected by the ad situation is the defenseless public having to deal with absurd volume on ads that they cant mute. Derp.
Keeping ads running is validating a company? Not watching said ads is wasting time? (note that ads always play during downtime when I wouldn't be watching the stream anyway, ads or no ads).
I dont have the problem that ads pop up at weird volumes. So I keep the ads running and just like with regular TV, I use commercial breaks to do other things. So the ads run, I don't watch them so I'm not bothered by them, the big companies lose money, Twitch and the broadcasters earn money. I don't see the problem. And I especially don't see how I am being "farmed" as you like to put it.
On January 09 2012 20:08 Frozne wrote: Why would I waste time validating these companies existence if I dislike them?
I'd rather ignore all their ads and purchase the products I like based on my own personal experiences.
The only people currently effected by the ad situation is the defenseless public having to deal with absurd volume on ads that they cant mute. Derp.
If you dislike companies like Twitch and people like Day[9] who produce content then why are you using their service/watching their show?
They are the only people you are validating if you watch ads. If you dislike the companies doing the advertising, then why wouldn't you watch the ads so that some of their money goes into the wallet of people you DO like. It costs you nothing.
You are welcome to ignore ads and purchase whatever you want, why can't you do that whilst also allowing companies you dislike to pay money to people you do at no benefit to themselves? You can alt-tab/ctrl-tab when the ads are running and hit "Mute" - you are smart enough to figure that out, right?
The only people currently effected by you blocking ads are the content creators and the broadcasters. By extension it also hurts the entire world of esports which exists SOLEY because of the money corporate sponsors and advertising brings in.
No advertising, no esports. Game. Frickin. Over. Do you even remember what life was like before SC2 took off? I followed Broodwar and their basically was no foreign scene because you couldn't make any money off it. Want to know why? Because no companies would advertise during a Broodwar show (outside of Korea) because NOBODY WOULD WATCH THE ADS. I, for one, don't want to return to that state of affairs because I actually like esports, though you clearly either hate esports or you really don't understand what you are doing - either that or you're a selfish prick, which is the only other reason to block ads. I'm sure that's not the case though, right?
Nice post! Good to spread some information to the community.
I, as a viewer, do prefer Twitch over Own3d just based on the interface and general impression of the stream quality. I have a quite good internet connection and ISP and I very seldom have any lag or other issues on Twitch, however, on Own3d I often have issues with lag or sound and I feel like the quality of the picture is often times not as crisp as a good quality stream on Twitch. Twitch seems like the better product right now (from a viewers perspective).
Question to topic starter: what is your opinion on ads that pop up at the bottom of the screen instead of taking up the whole screen? Those smaller ones that can be closed? I feel like those can pop up now and then during games as well and they don't really bother me too much. I guess that they are cheaper and bring less income?
On January 09 2012 11:19 Frozne wrote: I don't know about most of you pissing into the wind saying I'm killing Esports but the internet has been around for quite some time now... and guess what, it didn't have ads in the start. You know why? People didn't have the bandwidth to spare.
I'll pass on ads, and I'll help E-sports flourish in the process. Things evolve with love and care, not money.
You are endorsing a money farming machine. Not Esports.
Wake up children. Block ads. They will continue to operate regardless.
fuck you you obnoxious little imbecile. you're entitled to watch everything for free? and you have the nerve to act superior because of it? you cant afford to allow an ad to run at absolutely no cost to you in order to give the people providing entertainment for you, the people who esports does not exist without, money? you're a leach on the community. get the fuck out.
Please let us know how many viewers on average are using ad-blockers. I'd expect it to be less than 25%, but I think most people believe that number is much higher. Drop your knowledge of this please too; we/I so need to know that.
I dont think this is covered in the original post.
Frequency Cap - High paying advertisers usually only allow companies to show their ad 1-3 times per day to a unique viewer. This is to prevent over-exposure of their brand and ensure higher performance. Frequency caps can be as low as none (as in they will allow a company to show their ad as many times as possible) or 1 per day. The ones you see over and over are usually the lower paying CPM ads
If I watch Day9's stream for an hour, during which there are several occurrences of an advert, day9 gets the money for me watching those adverts. I then go to MrUnknowns stream, and its really good so i stick around, I see that same advert several times, will MrUnknown get money?
From the above quote i'd say he wouldnt as i have already seen the advert 1-3 times on day9's stream.
Frequency Cap - High paying advertisers usually only allow companies to show their ad 1-3 times per day to a unique viewer. This is to prevent over-exposure of their brand and ensure higher performance. Frequency caps can be as low as none (as in they will allow a company to show their ad as many times as possible) or 1 per day. The ones you see over and over are usually the lower paying CPM ads
If I watch Day9's stream for an hour, during which there are several occurrences of an advert, day9 gets the money for me watching those adverts. I then go to MrUnknowns stream, and its really good so i stick around, I see that same advert several times, will MrUnknown get money?
From the above quote i'd say he wouldnt as i have already seen the advert 1-3 times on day9's stream.
I would say you are correct since the ad server tracks your IP address. So if that advertiser has a frequency cap of 1/24 hours you will only make Day9 some money - he deserves it
On January 09 2012 21:52 Rye. wrote: I dont think this is covered in the original post.
Frequency Cap - High paying advertisers usually only allow companies to show their ad 1-3 times per day to a unique viewer. This is to prevent over-exposure of their brand and ensure higher performance. Frequency caps can be as low as none (as in they will allow a company to show their ad as many times as possible) or 1 per day. The ones you see over and over are usually the lower paying CPM ads
If I watch Day9's stream for an hour, during which there are several occurrences of an advert, day9 gets the money for me watching those adverts. I then go to MrUnknowns stream, and its really good so i stick around, I see that same advert several times, will MrUnknown get money?
From the above quote i'd say he wouldnt as i have already seen the advert 1-3 times on day9's stream.
I would say you are correct since the ad server tracks your IP address. So if that advertiser has a frequency cap of 1/24 hours you will only make Day9 some money - he deserves it
That sucks, what if i accidentally click on a protoss stream? j/k
Yeah, probably is tracking by ip address. It would be nice if it could track which streams my ip watches over a 24 hr period and then divide up the views based on how many i saw on each stream, or by how long i watched each stream. something like that. I can imagine time zones playing a part too. if i watch a US stream late at night, are they likely to get nothing because of the EU streams i watch during the day? (im in UK)
On January 09 2012 20:08 Frozne wrote: Why would I waste time validating these companies existence if I dislike them?
I'd rather ignore all their ads and purchase the products I like based on my own personal experiences.
The only people currently effected by the ad situation is the defenseless public having to deal with absurd volume on ads that they cant mute. Derp.
So you know how people spam those "x is killing eSports" comments in chats and stuff?
It legitimately applies to you. Your actions, if replicated by all, would kill eSports. Your stingy, selfish arrogance denies TwitchTV the revenue they get by showing the ads that "those farmers" pay Twitch to show. Even EG.IdrA knows you're wrong and called you out on it; his reply is a few above mine. He streams as part of his income, so his knowledge on the subject is far superior to yours provided he directly deals with Twitch on a regular basis.
I really hope you're just a very good troll, but it doesn't seem that way. Uninstall Starcraft, disconnect your modem, and smash your computer. You deserve none of them.
On January 09 2012 11:19 Frozne wrote: I don't know about most of you pissing into the wind saying I'm killing Esports but the internet has been around for quite some time now... and guess what, it didn't have ads in the start. You know why? People didn't have the bandwidth to spare.
I'll pass on ads, and I'll help E-sports flourish in the process. Things evolve with love and care, not money.
You are endorsing a money farming machine. Not Esports.
Wake up children. Block ads. They will continue to operate regardless.
You honestly couldn't be more wrong. Things evolve with love and care, AND money. What pays for a huge portion of all the tourneys, player income, and online content that you claim to love? The money that YOU aren't giving them through ads, but that others are. You're impatient, selfish, and beyond that, completely wrong in your assumptions. If everyone blocked ads, no, they would not continue to operate.
Sure, it's sort of a running joke now, but it started in truth:
I don't understand why you wouldn't see an ad if the streamer is running it. When he was talking about Ad opportunities and Ad impressions that didn't make sense. If you am watching someone and they run an Ad why wouldn't you see it unless you have ad block. And my Ad block doesn't even block Twitch TV ads most of the time.
The streamer doesnt send the ad, he only tells twitch to send the ad.
Twitch make all the deals with companies that want ad's shown, so the streamer doesnt have to worry about it. It wouldnt make sense to show an ad to everyone for a product that is only available in the US. So the ads are region specific, they can also be time specific. Also, if you have seen an ad several times, you may not get it again that day.
Awesome write-up! Hell, I've been buying and selling ads for a while now and I still get boggled by some of this stuff. Love the viewer education effort here. keep it up!
You live in a fantasy world if you think ads aren't useful nor necessary for "growth of esports". It's a revenue source and it encourages people to provide content... If no ads, then what's your solution? Free lunch for everyone? You aren't even paying anything to watch ads, just a little bit of your time.
fuck you you obnoxious little imbecile. you're entitled to watch everything for free? and you have the nerve to act superior because of it? you cant afford to allow an ad to run at absolutely no cost to you in order to give the people providing entertainment for you, the people who esports does not exist without, money? you're a leach on the community. get the fuck out.
This! Thank you IdrA for saying what needed to be said. Advertising is a necessary part intellectual property and the digital world. Unless you just want to start paying a monthly fee for everything you ever watch/listen too? There is no such thing as free content. How about you @Frozne spend 8 hours a day or more working for free to make us content that is actually valuable and entertaining...if you can afford to do this then you can have a valid argument for yourself. As for me...I'll watch the ads to support the entertainment I love.
P.S your entitled attitude is what's wrong with our world today.
So guys, other than the fact that I think IdrA was right in hating on people who block ads and then say: "look at me I am superior". I need help, I was using IE before and have switched to firefox (because I woke up from my IE coma), and some times I see a streamer type /commercial but I get no commercial. Obviously I don't care whether or not I watch commercials or the streamer just waiting for the commercial to finish. To my knowledge I have no ad-block installed (I haven't installed one myself). Is this just because I live in Denmark and nobody pays to show commercials to me? I think the least I can do for eSports is to watch some stupid commercials, so please PM me if you know why I am not getting commercials.
eSports streams are one of the few things that I whitelist in Adblock. For the most part I don't want to see advertisements because most of the advertisements don't apply to me. People like DeMuslim and Artosis are what got me to whitelist Twitch/Own3d's ads and provide fantastic content. I think that's the first thing that I've whitelisted in about 3 years. Go eSports.
Frequency Cap - High paying advertisers usually only allow companies to show their ad 1-3 times per day to a unique viewer. This is to prevent over-exposure of their brand and ensure higher performance. Frequency caps can be as low as none (as in they will allow a company to show their ad as many times as possible) or 1 per day. The ones you see over and over are usually the lower paying CPM ads
If I watch Day9's stream for an hour, during which there are several occurrences of an advert, day9 gets the money for me watching those adverts. I then go to MrUnknowns stream, and its really good so i stick around, I see that same advert several times, will MrUnknown get money?
From the above quote i'd say he wouldnt as i have already seen the advert 1-3 times on day9's stream.
That's not how it works. If you have already seen the ad the capped number of times you won't see it again, that's the whole point. Rest assured, if you have seen the ad, whoever you are watching has been paid.
On January 10 2012 07:14 Grovbolle wrote: So guys, other than the fact that I think IdrA was right in hating on people who block ads and then say: "look at me I am superior". I need help, I was using IE before and have switched to firefox (because I woke up from my IE coma), and some times I see a streamer type /commercial but I get no commercial. Obviously I don't care whether or not I watch commercials or the streamer just waiting for the commercial to finish. To my knowledge I have no ad-block installed (I haven't installed one myself). Is this just because I live in Denmark and nobody pays to show commercials to me? I think the least I can do for eSports is to watch some stupid commercials, so please PM me if you know why I am not getting commercials.
It's most likely because no one cares about you/Denmark : ( it's a small blessing for now.
On January 09 2012 11:19 Frozne wrote: I don't know about most of you pissing into the wind saying I'm killing Esports but the internet has been around for quite some time now... and guess what, it didn't have ads in the start. You know why? People didn't have the bandwidth to spare.
I'll pass on ads, and I'll help E-sports flourish in the process. Things evolve with love and care, not money.
You are endorsing a money farming machine. Not Esports.
Wake up children. Block ads. They will continue to operate regardless.
fuck you you obnoxious little imbecile. you're entitled to watch everything for free? and you have the nerve to act superior because of it? you cant afford to allow an ad to run at absolutely no cost to you in order to give the people providing entertainment for you, the people who esports does not exist without, money? you're a leach on the community. get the fuck out.
On January 09 2012 21:52 Rye. wrote: I dont think this is covered in the original post.
Frequency Cap - High paying advertisers usually only allow companies to show their ad 1-3 times per day to a unique viewer. This is to prevent over-exposure of their brand and ensure higher performance. Frequency caps can be as low as none (as in they will allow a company to show their ad as many times as possible) or 1 per day. The ones you see over and over are usually the lower paying CPM ads
If I watch Day9's stream for an hour, during which there are several occurrences of an advert, day9 gets the money for me watching those adverts. I then go to MrUnknowns stream, and its really good so i stick around, I see that same advert several times, will MrUnknown get money?
From the above quote i'd say he wouldnt as i have already seen the advert 1-3 times on day9's stream.
That's not how it works. If you have already seen the ad the capped number of times you won't see it again, that's the whole point. Rest assured, if you have seen the ad, whoever you are watching has been paid.
Capped ads have a higher CPM (on average). So if he's seen all the capped ads then switches streams, the next guy will see less money from the repeatable ads lower CPM. Everyone still gets paid what their ads are worth though.
On January 10 2012 07:14 Grovbolle wrote: So guys, other than the fact that I think IdrA was right in hating on people who block ads and then say: "look at me I am superior". I need help, I was using IE before and have switched to firefox (because I woke up from my IE coma), and some times I see a streamer type /commercial but I get no commercial. Obviously I don't care whether or not I watch commercials or the streamer just waiting for the commercial to finish. To my knowledge I have no ad-block installed (I haven't installed one myself). Is this just because I live in Denmark and nobody pays to show commercials to me? I think the least I can do for eSports is to watch some stupid commercials, so please PM me if you know why I am not getting commercials.
It's most likely because no one cares about you/Denmark : ( it's a small blessing for now.
On January 09 2012 11:19 Frozne wrote: I don't know about most of you pissing into the wind saying I'm killing Esports but the internet has been around for quite some time now... and guess what, it didn't have ads in the start. You know why? People didn't have the bandwidth to spare.
I'll pass on ads, and I'll help E-sports flourish in the process. Things evolve with love and care, not money.
You are endorsing a money farming machine. Not Esports.
Wake up children. Block ads. They will continue to operate regardless.
fuck you you obnoxious little imbecile. you're entitled to watch everything for free? and you have the nerve to act superior because of it? you cant afford to allow an ad to run at absolutely no cost to you in order to give the people providing entertainment for you, the people who esports does not exist without, money? you're a leach on the community. get the fuck out.
get shit on, Frozne.
Similar question; I live in Canada, and I don't get ads yet I don't have adblock. Same idea as in the Denmark question?
On January 09 2012 21:52 Rye. wrote: I dont think this is covered in the original post.
Frequency Cap - High paying advertisers usually only allow companies to show their ad 1-3 times per day to a unique viewer. This is to prevent over-exposure of their brand and ensure higher performance. Frequency caps can be as low as none (as in they will allow a company to show their ad as many times as possible) or 1 per day. The ones you see over and over are usually the lower paying CPM ads
If I watch Day9's stream for an hour, during which there are several occurrences of an advert, day9 gets the money for me watching those adverts. I then go to MrUnknowns stream, and its really good so i stick around, I see that same advert several times, will MrUnknown get money?
From the above quote i'd say he wouldnt as i have already seen the advert 1-3 times on day9's stream.
That's not how it works. If you have already seen the ad the capped number of times you won't see it again, that's the whole point. Rest assured, if you have seen the ad, whoever you are watching has been paid.
Capped ads have a higher CPM (on average). So if he's seen all the capped ads then switches streams, the next guy will see less money from the repeatable ads lower CPM. Everyone still gets paid what their ads are worth though.
Yes, but he was talking about the SAME ads (and I basically never see any unique ads herein Australia).
On January 10 2012 07:14 Grovbolle wrote: So guys, other than the fact that I think IdrA was right in hating on people who block ads and then say: "look at me I am superior". I need help, I was using IE before and have switched to firefox (because I woke up from my IE coma), and some times I see a streamer type /commercial but I get no commercial. Obviously I don't care whether or not I watch commercials or the streamer just waiting for the commercial to finish. To my knowledge I have no ad-block installed (I haven't installed one myself). Is this just because I live in Denmark and nobody pays to show commercials to me? I think the least I can do for eSports is to watch some stupid commercials, so please PM me if you know why I am not getting commercials.
It's most likely because no one cares about you/Denmark : ( it's a small blessing for now.
On January 09 2012 21:30 IdrA wrote:
On January 09 2012 11:19 Frozne wrote: I don't know about most of you pissing into the wind saying I'm killing Esports but the internet has been around for quite some time now... and guess what, it didn't have ads in the start. You know why? People didn't have the bandwidth to spare.
I'll pass on ads, and I'll help E-sports flourish in the process. Things evolve with love and care, not money.
You are endorsing a money farming machine. Not Esports.
Wake up children. Block ads. They will continue to operate regardless.
fuck you you obnoxious little imbecile. you're entitled to watch everything for free? and you have the nerve to act superior because of it? you cant afford to allow an ad to run at absolutely no cost to you in order to give the people providing entertainment for you, the people who esports does not exist without, money? you're a leach on the community. get the fuck out.
get shit on, Frozne.
Similar question; I live in Canada, and I don't get ads yet I don't have adblock. Same idea as in the Denmark question?
Same thing. Depends on the add they attempted to show and it's relation to your country of residence.
On January 10 2012 02:11 shammythefox wrote: Could you possibly clarify what requirements a broadcaster on twitch tv has to meet to start sharing ad revenue?
Basically, you have to be a Partner with Twitch. They outline the requirements on their application page: http://www.twitch.tv/partner/signup
To qualify as a TwitchTV Partner, you must meet... BOTH of the following requirements:
Views per month: 30,000+ Average concurrent viewers: 300+
Or EITHER of the following requirements:
Views per month: 100,000+ Average concurrent viewers: 400+
These requirements are general guidelines. Exceptions are handled on a case by case basis at TwitchTV's discretion.
On January 09 2012 11:19 Frozne wrote: I don't know about most of you pissing into the wind saying I'm killing Esports but the internet has been around for quite some time now... and guess what, it didn't have ads in the start. You know why? People didn't have the bandwidth to spare.
I'll pass on ads, and I'll help E-sports flourish in the process. Things evolve with love and care, not money.
You are endorsing a money farming machine. Not Esports.
Wake up children. Block ads. They will continue to operate regardless.
fuck you you obnoxious little imbecile. you're entitled to watch everything for free? and you have the nerve to act superior because of it? you cant afford to allow an ad to run at absolutely no cost to you in order to give the people providing entertainment for you, the people who esports does not exist without, money? you're a leach on the community. get the fuck out.
This
I promise you that your "love and care" is not putting food on pro players tables. This is not the MLB or NFL, not every esports pro has a salary or a very reasonable one, yet are still willing to put hours of their time into a video game for your amusement. If they need commercials to get by, you should be happy to support that.
On January 09 2012 11:19 Frozne wrote: I don't know about most of you pissing into the wind saying I'm killing Esports but the internet has been around for quite some time now... and guess what, it didn't have ads in the start. You know why? People didn't have the bandwidth to spare.
I'll pass on ads, and I'll help E-sports flourish in the process. Things evolve with love and care, not money.
You are endorsing a money farming machine. Not Esports.
Wake up children. Block ads. They will continue to operate regardless.
fuck you you obnoxious little imbecile. you're entitled to watch everything for free? and you have the nerve to act superior because of it? you cant afford to allow an ad to run at absolutely no cost to you in order to give the people providing entertainment for you, the people who esports does not exist without, money? you're a leach on the community. get the fuck out.
Well said Idra!
TwitchTV doesn't have to let anyone using adblock watch the stream. We could easily block all adblock users from viewing our website. But we hope that outreach, education and being awesome to the community will persuade people to care about the players and events and not want to screw them.
So listen to Idra! Please do not use adblock on TwitchTV.
TwitchTV is rolling out things like the Day9 Subscriber system to other streamers so if you really hate ads but want to support a streamer, that will become an option as well.
But for now, we all can slurp and ad or two and know at it directly is keeping our favorite entertainers afloat with the income they need.
Honestly, most of you are awesome. For such a tech savvy audience, we have a rather low percentage of adblockers. Please keep up the education and good work so that we all can continue to enjoy the growth of Esports!
On January 10 2012 07:14 Grovbolle wrote: So guys, other than the fact that I think IdrA was right in hating on people who block ads and then say: "look at me I am superior". I need help, I was using IE before and have switched to firefox (because I woke up from my IE coma), and some times I see a streamer type /commercial but I get no commercial. Obviously I don't care whether or not I watch commercials or the streamer just waiting for the commercial to finish. To my knowledge I have no ad-block installed (I haven't installed one myself). Is this just because I live in Denmark and nobody pays to show commercials to me? I think the least I can do for eSports is to watch some stupid commercials, so please PM me if you know why I am not getting commercials.
It's most likely because no one cares about you/Denmark : ( it's a small blessing for now.
On January 09 2012 11:19 Frozne wrote: I don't know about most of you pissing into the wind saying I'm killing Esports but the internet has been around for quite some time now... and guess what, it didn't have ads in the start. You know why? People didn't have the bandwidth to spare.
I'll pass on ads, and I'll help E-sports flourish in the process. Things evolve with love and care, not money.
You are endorsing a money farming machine. Not Esports.
Wake up children. Block ads. They will continue to operate regardless.
fuck you you obnoxious little imbecile. you're entitled to watch everything for free? and you have the nerve to act superior because of it? you cant afford to allow an ad to run at absolutely no cost to you in order to give the people providing entertainment for you, the people who esports does not exist without, money? you're a leach on the community. get the fuck out.
On ad-blocking: I am perfectly fine with non-intrusive ads. However, I *really* do not want to run into ads in the middle of a game (doesn't happen on high profile streams as ads are controlled). Having to watch a 30s ad when I refresh a stream, knowing something is about to happen really suck.
I am perfectly fine with watching commercials during downtimes (add a commercial button for the audience as well?). I am also perfectly fine with a string of continuous commercials being played in the background while I have the stream open but is doing something else.
I suppose in a perfect scenario I would have absolutely no ads while games are being played/caster is talking, but commercials roll during downtimes: similar to TV.
Twitch.tv partners FAQ explains very little on how it works. Only after reading this I understand. I suggest you update the FAQ with more info. Because why would you join partner program if you don't know how it works?
On January 19 2013 19:02 Venser wrote: Twitch.tv partners FAQ explains very little on how it works. Only after reading this I understand. I suggest you update the FAQ with more info. Because why would you join partner program if you don't know how it works?
Actually once you apply to be a partner, and IF you are accepted to be a partner, you'll be given a 3-4 page contract going into detail exactly what you have at your disposal and how much you'll be making, and on and on.
EPT
