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On December 30 2011 03:56 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 03:33 Almonjin wrote:On December 30 2011 03:29 hunts wrote:On December 30 2011 03:24 Almonjin wrote:On December 30 2011 03:19 skrotcyk wrote:On December 30 2011 03:02 Almonjin wrote:On December 30 2011 01:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 30 2011 01:05 masterbreti wrote:On December 30 2011 00:15 seiferoth10 wrote:On December 29 2011 23:52 masterbreti wrote:
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I think its more that just that.
TL has never poached a player on another team before in sc2. EG has done it many times, though have been unsucessful in doing so except in the case of puma and HuK. TL's Koreans have been recruited usually though more than friendly means with both the former team and liquid. from what I understand. Nazgul was approached by TheWind to recruit Zenio.
EG does have a bad reputation among the esports scene's. With many of their players having their fair share of haters, and people who dislike their business ethics.
Do you know what poach means? You can't poach players. Players think for themselves. Players decide where they want to go. I know what it means. When EG offers you a six figure salary that is almost double what most teams can offer you. It becomes a lot more then thinking for themselves. HuK was rather pressured into the situaition. Being that he would be really well off in terms of money. If EG and TL were offering the same salary to HuK. It would no doubt have changed the outcome of the result of where HuK went. So people dislike EG because EG is using their resources to their fullest potential? That's hardly a good reason to dislike EG, in my opinion, but okay. If you don't like EG (or the Yankees or whatever token rich sports team you want to refer to) because they have money, fine. But EG did nothing illegal to obtain their acquisitions, which is the important part. Business is business. If you would like to obtain a player and have something better to offer them than their current team can offer, then it makes all the sense in the world to do just that so that they play for your team. You want to create a good team (whether that means winning things, being visible in the scene, having big personalities, whatever), and so you're going to play to win when it comes to acquiring ideal players. Obviously, the fans of the old team who lost their player to EG are going to be sour, but that's expected. Sucks for them, but it's not like EG did anything wrong. EDIT: Anyways, I'm ridiculously excited to see who the new player is!  - The people that dislike rich teams have a very good reason, they use their economic resources to aggregate a superior talent pool, giving them an unfair off-field advantage. - Sports fans watch to be entertained, and one of the most significant elements in sports entertainment is the perception that a match is between evenly matched opponents. Me playing a game against Idra would be ludicrous, and while the first couple games would have hilarity value it would quickly get boring; because the outcome is predictable. - This effect is somewhat countered by the fact that some viewers will choose to associate with a "winning" team, and will gravitate towards teams with an unfair economic advantage and support them - but overall large differences in the resources available to teams detracts from the entertainment value of the sport as a whole. - It could be argued that this leads to an "underdog" dynamic where the dominant team (with the unfair advantage) wins most of the time but occasionally (the end of the Red Sox curse, for instance), an underdog causes an upset that increases the compelling nature of the sport. I would argue, however, that this fails to balance the loss of "potential" entertainment value caused by the boring dominance of an economically dominant team for decades (the Yankees). "Business is business" - The assumption that underlies this statement is that teams with an unfair advantage will act on their advantage. Ok, sure, but this is pretty self evident. What isn't as apparent is that the managerial structure of teams are caught in one of the classic catch -22's of capitalism - that is the short term decisions necessary to keep pace with competitors are deleterious to the overall industry/scene/whatever. In this case, using an overriding economic advantage to diminish the entertainment value of esports is a necessary but carcinogenic decision. The reason is complicated, but suffice to say that the job of team administrators is to sell audiences to advertisers and sponsors, and while obviously the long-term death of esports isn't in their best interest their decisions are framed by short term problems. Christ, how's it an unfair advantage, when they have got their money resources from success, if anything that would be a FAIR advantage. It's not like they cheated or got their money illegally. With ur logic I guess u support all small and unsuccessful teams because they have a "disadvantage" that they aren't successful. Let's say if liquid gets more successful and better, more sponsors and money etc you would call that an "unfair advantage" that they got more money than other not as successful teams and know you won't like em. you really don't make sense. I don't think you understand, "unfair" I'm using in the sense that they have a greater probability of victory than their opponent because of factors outside the game. It has nothing to do with the legality/illegality of this advantage at all, or any of the ethical ideas whatsoever. That said, some teams do have this kind of advantage, and regardless of whether it is the result of success or not it detracts from the future entertainment value of the sport (see my prior argument). "Let's say if liquid gets more successful and better, more sponsors and money etc you would call that an "unfair advantage" that they got more money than other not as successful teams and know you won't like em. you really don't make sense." Yes, that would be an unfair advantage from a technical point of view. All I'm doing is recognizing that sports don't occur in a vacuum, and that steps have to be taken to mitigate the outside influence on the game for it to be fun. Physical sports have not been very successful in this over the years. Damn those enethical EG managers! Using their previous success as an e-sports team to buy good players! They should instead just give all that money to charity or to small teams who have no success, because clearly they deserve it! Really your argument here is just so petty. You're really hating on teams that have succeeded in the past and so they have money because of it. You should try reading my post before you make an irrelevant response. I specifically said I don't care about the ethics of it one way or the other because it doesn't matter. Your perception of who "deserves" to have an economic advantage doesn't matter either. The fact is, no matter who has an advantage it is bad for the game. That sports teams are businesses, responsible for selling a product to other businesses, accounts for most of the difficulties in having real, rigorous competition in any sport. They are bound by the structure of the economy they participate in to a particular kind of behavior, which is unfortunately bad for fairness in sports. You're telling everyone that they don't understand your argument, have you thought that the issue is maybe not everyone else? Like I get what you're trying to say, but it's so silly I'm having a hard time accepting that you're actually complaining about it. You basically want every team to pay their players the same and not recruit new players? That's not how things will or should work buddy. You want to take economy out of esports, that's just silly and it wouldn't work.
I said you don't understand my argument, if you wrote the text that I quoted, because that text displays that you didn't read my post or any of the preceding ones and you don't have the context for the argument I'm trying to make. Universalizing won't get you anywhere, or convince anyone to support your non-arguments.
I didn't propose any of the things you said in your second paragraph, so responding to them wouldn't do anyone any good. The advantages that certain teams have over others is the result of the structure of advertising and the entire economy, so until those evolve into new forms all sports will face the same perennial problems unless they recognize the impact and gather the momentum to help mitigate the advantage by measures far less extreme than the ones you say I proposed that I didn't.
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Anyone else think this Genie guy comes across as a super nerd?
Yeah you hate sports and everything that is being a sports fan, we get it. Now start rationalizing a good reason why you've spent hours trying to troll people on a message board, and let the normal people do what they do, mmkay?
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On December 30 2011 03:33 Almonjin wrote:
You should try reading my post before you make an irrelevant response. I specifically said I don't care about the ethics of it one way or the other because it doesn't matter. Your perception of who "deserves" to have an economic advantage doesn't matter either. The fact is, no matter who has an advantage it is bad for the game.
That sports teams are businesses, responsible for selling a product to other businesses, accounts for most of the difficulties in having real, rigorous competition in any sport. They are bound by the structure of the economy they participate in to a particular kind of behavior, which is unfortunately bad for fairness in sports.
so whats your point after all ?
how should esports exist without pro gaming teams using their resources for their advantages ?
if they can't, pro gamers don't get money because who should pay them ?
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On December 30 2011 04:04 isleyofthenorth wrote:
i HOPE its hongUn prime. they need more aggressive players.
By "aggressive" do you mean cheesey coin-flippers?
HuK not aggressive? PuMa not aggressive?
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On December 30 2011 04:13 Bagi wrote:
Anyone else think this Genie guy comes across as a super nerd?
Yeah you hate sports and everything that is being a sports fan, we get it. Now start rationalizing a good reason why you've spent hours trying to troll people on a message board, and let the normal people do what they do, mmkay?
Are you using nerd as an insult? on a PC gaming website?
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On December 30 2011 04:08 ES.Genie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 03:50 flick.ch wrote:
How is your country/town/college not a rational connection?!? How is it a rational connection? How can you give a f*ck about someones nationality? You are trying to make prejudices(related to nationality) sound perfectly reasonable. Its not. Neither in positive ways nor in negative. There is no reason to like someone you dont know based on his nationality. Your can like someone because hes a nice person, because you think his playstyle is good or even because you think hes cute, but you cannot like him just due to the place he lives/was born. Thats not reasonable, not natural and not logical. It is simply dumb and kinda sad. Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 03:57 Detrimentally wrote:
You're right. Relationships are not natural. When people have babies, they simply toss them aside and hope they can fend for themselves. People don't get married and spend their lives together. People certainly don't keep in contact with their family, either. Connections just don't happen ever and it completely unnatural. I never said that and you know it. Just to quote myself: Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 03:44 ES.Genie wrote:
Of course I will root for my child, but thats because there is a real absolutely rational connection. You just dont have any kind of connection to someone because of his nationality. Thats the point and if you dont get that, I feel really sorry for you. If you have a real relationship and connection to someone(e.g. your child) it is perfectly fine to support and cheer for that person. Having the same passport is not some kind of relationship. Demuslim and I have the same haircolour. Do we have a relationship because of that? No we dont.
You completely fail to answer the rest of my post, just the part that's convenient for you to answer. And you're twisting my argument. I'm not saying I randomly like someone just because they're from my country, I'm saying it's natural for someone to support an entity (team, player, organization etc..) that represents their country in whatever interest they may have. Now stop calling me dumb and sad when you're clearly the one that has no grasp of human nature, logic and emotions. I believe you'll find the answer to your question in my previous post, which you've chosen to ignore.
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On December 30 2011 04:14 GleaM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 04:04 isleyofthenorth wrote:
i HOPE its hongUn prime. they need more aggressive players. By "aggressive" do you mean cheesey coin-flippers? HuK not aggressive? PuMa not aggressive?
Wouldn't say HongUn is known for being agressive... rather for abusing the NA ladder by making Carriers... then again, that is a very useful talent toi have according to IdrA, and maybe Grack recommended him because of that 
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On December 30 2011 04:15 Almonjin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 04:13 Bagi wrote:
Anyone else think this Genie guy comes across as a super nerd?
Yeah you hate sports and everything that is being a sports fan, we get it. Now start rationalizing a good reason why you've spent hours trying to troll people on a message board, and let the normal people do what they do, mmkay? Are you using nerd as an insult? on a PC gaming website?
There are nerds and then there are bitter super nerds.
I spend most of my days on the computer but I don't hate on people for liking the local football team, nor do I demand that they rationalize why exactly they like that team. They have nothing in common with the people who play in the team!!!
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On December 30 2011 04:12 mountshy wrote:
No. No you didn't. Now you did, because you realize you were wrong before. But you really did say what Detrimentally said you said.
Yeah my fault. It was stupid to assume that you can relate that statement to the topic we are talking about. I am so sorry.
On December 30 2011 04:10 mountshy wrote:
How are the feelings of love any more rational and natural than pride? Answer that with a real answer, not a cheap snide one that you've been spewing for 5+ pages.
Are you trolling or do you really dont get the point? I said it like 5 times, but as a friendly person I will repeat it: Feelings in general are natural, but its not natural to have positive/negative feelings towards someone, because you have something absolutely irrelevant in common(e.g. nationality).
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On December 30 2011 03:44 ES.Genie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 03:31 Detrimentally wrote:
You Lost whatever you WanT to call this. Don't waste your time rebutting because you have nothing logical to say, as proven by your previous posts. If have nothing logical to say? OK, now its getting absurd. So you think liking a team for no ReasoN is perfectly logical, but not feeling any kind of realtion to someone, just because hes from the same country, is absolutely dumb and unreasonable? Lets not twist Reality. Btw. a discussion is not about winning or losing. Its about exchanging opionions with other people and to come out a little bit wiser. I dont know if this is part of American mentality and I honestly dont care, but you should Really think about your attitude. Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 03:34 Witten wrote:
If you had children, would you Root for your son or daughters opponent because their team is better? No, you would Root for your Child because you have a connection with them, just like many feel a connection with their nation. Of course I will Root for my Child, but thats because there is a ReaL absolutely rational connection. You just dont have any kind of connection to someone because of his nationality. Thats the Point and if you dont get that, I feel Really sorry for you.
Okay this has been getting ridiculous. Allow me to explain why people root for their local team.
It's because when the team representing your area (high school, city, country, Not-Korea...) competes, everyone in your area is rooting for something together. I'll use an example from the NFL (we call it football in the U.S.... I only mention it because clearly you have some problem with Americans). I live in Baltimore. Here we have football team called the Ravens. The Baltimore Ravens run huge charity events all throughout Baltimore. They involve themselves in the community. One of our players, when he left the city to play in Arizona, bought an ad to thank everyone in Baltimore: (http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/baltimore-sports-blog/bal-sportsblitz-todd-heap-baltimore-sun-ad1028,0,6603865.story)
Oh yeah, and they're good. They've gone to the playoffs (analogous to getting 1st or 2nd in the group in the World Cup) for the past 3 years and they've made it again this year.
Because of all this, the whole city backs the team. Every year that they make the playoffs, Baltimore has something called a "Purple Friday", where everyone wears purple (the team colors) in support of the Ravens. It's fun
The Ravens have a rival, too. They're called the Pittsburgh Steelers, and they're tough. Their star player was suspended 4 games last season for rape. Everybody here hates them. Oh yeah, and did I mention that they've knocked us out of the playoffs 2 of the last 3 seasons? So when the Ravens and the Steelers played in Pittsburgh for control of the division everybody watched. Even my mom tuned in (she really hates sports). The Ravens won the game with 35 seconds left to beat the Pittsbursh Steelers. My whole neighborhood lit up. People were running outside to congratulate each other. We hadn't really done anything at all, but the feeling a human gets when they stand with countless others is incredible. It makes the lows worth it.
In short, sports are fun because you root with a ton of other people who live with you. There is no rational explanation, but there doesn't need to be. It's just fun, and that's all that matters.
Edited for random capitalization mistakes..
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On December 30 2011 04:20 ES.Genie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 04:12 mountshy wrote:
No. No you didn't. Now you did, because you realize you were wrong before. But you really did say what Detrimentally said you said. Yeah my fault. It was stupid to assume that you can relate that statement to the topic we are talking about. I am so sorry. Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 04:10 mountshy wrote:
How are the feelings of love any more rational and natural than pride? Answer that with a real answer, not a cheap snide one that you've been spewing for 5+ pages. Are you trolling or do you really dont get the point? I said it like 5 times, but as a friendly person I will repeat it: Feelings in general are natural, but its not natural to have positive/negative feelings towards someone, because you have something absolutely irrelevant in common(e.g. nationality).
You've twisted the argument to make it more favorable to your irrational logic. No one in here is debating that you should like someone simply because you're from the same country. We're trying to say that it's natural for someone to support a club, team, organization etc.. from your local area/country.
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On December 30 2011 04:20 ES.Genie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 04:12 mountshy wrote:
No. No you didn't. Now you did, because you realize you were wrong before. But you really did say what Detrimentally said you said. Yeah my fault. It was stupid to assume that you can relate that statement to the topic we are talking about. I am so sorry. Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 04:10 mountshy wrote:
How are the feelings of love any more rational and natural than pride? Answer that with a real answer, not a cheap snide one that you've been spewing for 5+ pages. Are you trolling or do you really dont get the point? I said it like 5 times, but as a friendly person I will repeat it: Feelings in general are natural, but its not natural to have positive/negative feelings towards someone, because you have something absolutely irrelevant in common(e.g. nationality).
The assumption that you have that nationality is not actually a relevant connection between two people is not one that is shared by the vast majority of people, especially when it comes to sporting events, with the world cup, the olympics, and (in e-sports) WCG being examples of the somewhat standard nature of this.
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wouldnt it be hard to steal DRG from mvp since they have contract or agreements with CoL? straight logic tells me that they went for a good player that is teamless that would make negociation of a contract much more easier. wouldnt it? remember EG acquired puma while he was looking for other teams and huk while his contract with liquid had come to an end. to me Sangho or JYP seem the 2 most probable ones. while ppl brought moon's popularity argument. i don't think they'll pick him only for that. they actually get more attention if a player wins rather than popularity. huk and puma are the examples both were taken when they had just won tournies. JYP is somewhat a rising player while sangho didint have any great result exept for his long stay in code s(which is alrdy a big accomplishment). moon doesnt seems like hes near to win anything so i don't think its him.
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"Not from around here"
Incoming Wc3 player x)
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On December 30 2011 04:32 GranDGranT wrote:
"Not from around here"
Incoming Wc3 player x)
If not from around here equals from another game i´ll bet my 50 vespine on t² ... if not i´ll bet on EGFlash
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On December 30 2011 04:23 WalkofLife wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 03:44 ES.Genie wrote:On December 30 2011 03:31 Detrimentally wrote:
You Lost whatever you WanT to call this. Don't waste your time rebutting because you have nothing logical to say, as proven by your previous posts. If have nothing logical to say? OK, now its getting absurd. So you think liking a team for no ReasoN is perfectly logical, but not feeling any kind of realtion to someone, just because hes from the same country, is absolutely dumb and unreasonable? Lets not twist Reality. Btw. a discussion is not about winning or losing. Its about exchanging opionions with other people and to come out a little bit wiser. I dont know if this is part of American mentality and I honestly dont care, but you should Really think about your attitude. On December 30 2011 03:34 Witten wrote:
If you had children, would you Root for your son or daughters opponent because their team is better? No, you would Root for your Child because you have a connection with them, just like many feel a connection with their nation. Of course I will Root for my Child, but thats because there is a ReaL absolutely rational connection. You just dont have any kind of connection to someone because of his nationality. Thats the Point and if you dont get that, I feel Really sorry for you. Okay this has been getting ridiculous. Allow me to explain why people root for their local team. It's because when the team representing your area (high school, city, country, Not-Korea...) competes, everyone in your area is rooting for something together. I'll use an example from the NFL (we call it football in the U.S.... I only mention it because clearly you have some problem with Americans). I live in Baltimore. Here we have football team called the Ravens. The Baltimore Ravens run huge charity events all throughout Baltimore. They involve themselves in the community. One of our players, when he left the city to play in Arizona, bought an ad to thank everyone in Baltimore: (http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/baltimore-sports-blog/bal-sportsblitz-todd-heap-baltimore-sun-ad1028,0,6603865.story) Oh yeah, and they're good. They've gone to the playoffs (analogous to getting 1st or 2nd in the group in the World Cup) for the past 3 years and they've made it again this year. Because of all this, the whole city backs the team. Every year that they make the playoffs, Baltimore has something called a "Purple Friday", where everyone wears purple (the team colors) in support of the Ravens. It's funThe Ravens have a rival, too. Their called the Pittsburgh Steelers, and they're tough. Their star player was suspended 4 games last season for rape. Everybody here hates them. Oh yeah, and did I mention that they've knocked us out of the playoffs 2 of the last 3 seasons? So when the Ravens and the Steelers played in Pittsburgh for control of the division everybody watched. Even my mom tuned in (she really hates sports). The Ravens won the game with 35 seconds left to beat the Pittsbursh Steelers. My whole neighborhood lit up. People were running outside to congratulate each other. We hadn't really done anything at all, but the feeling a human gets when they stand with countless others is incredible. It makes the lows worth it. In short, sports are fun because you root with a ton of other people who live with you. There is no rational explanation, but there doesn't need to be. It's just fun, and that's all that matters. Edited for random capitalization mistakes..
this
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Sup with all the negativity in this thread? EG has already signed the new player. There's no changing it. Accept it. There's no single "right" way to run a business. There's just a professional code, written and unwritten. As long as EG is respecting that, then forget about who/how they sign players. As far as I know, the Puma/Huk signings were pretty legit. There were some grey areas that weren't public knowledge for a while which leaves it for debate, but I guess that comes with the signing of highly regarded players. Siding with teams, players, and organizations is part of fandom, but some of you are being straight up disrespectful to each other.
My guess is that it'll be JYP[Dat Blink Micro]. The guy's got too much hype in and out of Korea plus he's in Code S. With the recent high profile signings, I don't see EG slowing down. I don't think it's going to be a team poach because they're not really hype advertising this new player the way they did with Huk in terms of giving clues or doing a countdown on their website.
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On December 30 2011 04:26 Zinjil wrote:
The assumption that you have that nationality is not actually a relevant connection between two people is not one that is shared by the vast majority of people, especially when it comes to sporting events, with the world cup, the olympics, and (in e-sports) WCG being examples of the somewhat standard nature of this.
On December 30 2011 02:52 ES.Genie wrote:
Again: Something is not logic or natural or good, just because millions of people do it. Please give me a few good(rational) reasons why I am supposed to support a team/player just because he is from my region/country.
As proofen in this thread the vast majority of people is resistant to learning and refuses to think befor it does something. Despite this, they are still wrong.
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On December 30 2011 04:41 ES.Genie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 04:26 Zinjil wrote:
The assumption that you have that nationality is not actually a relevant connection between two people is not one that is shared by the vast majority of people, especially when it comes to sporting events, with the world cup, the olympics, and (in e-sports) WCG being examples of the somewhat standard nature of this. Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 02:52 ES.Genie wrote:
Again: Something is not logic or natural or good, just because millions of people do it. Please give me a few good(rational) reasons why I am supposed to support a team/player just because he is from my region/country.
As proofen in this thread the vast majority of people is resistant to learning and refuses to think befor it does something. Despite this, they are still wrong.
It just dawned on to me why you're so anti-nationality. You're from Germany, pride caused the self-destruction of your country. No wonder.
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On December 30 2011 04:41 ES.Genie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 04:26 Zinjil wrote:
The assumption that you have that nationality is not actually a relevant connection between two people is not one that is shared by the vast majority of people, especially when it comes to sporting events, with the world cup, the olympics, and (in e-sports) WCG being examples of the somewhat standard nature of this. Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 02:52 ES.Genie wrote:
Again: Something is not logic or natural or good, just because millions of people do it. Please give me a few good(rational) reasons why I am supposed to support a team/player just because he is from my region/country.
As proofen in this thread the vast majority of people is resistant to learning and refuses to think befor it does something. Despite this, they are still wrong.
You don't even respond to more than half of the points that people make about why it's logical to support your country. Make an effort to present a logical, well thought, well laid-out argument and we might take you seriously. Simply saying "it's not logical" and "it's not because millions of people do it that it's logical" (which is arguable too) doesn't constitute of an explanation.
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EPT
