EPTNew EG player? - Page 73
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Littlemuff
United Kingdom301 Posts
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
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ES.Genie
Germany1370 Posts
On December 30 2011 02:39 GuiltyJerk wrote: I share national ties with some of these players, ergo I want to see them win. There is an obvious logic gap. You dont share anything with someone just because hes born in the same city as you and there is absolutely no reason to support him just based on this fact. Thats like saying "Oh we have the same haircolour, ergo I want you to win." | ||
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iS.flick
Switzerland47 Posts
On December 30 2011 02:34 ES.Genie wrote: The obvious choise is to support the best team(s). Why would you support a team from your region it performes bad? So what you're saying is that you're a glory hunter? Only support teams that do well? The primary reason why people support a team in traditional sports is because of geographic proximity or historical family ties with a certain country/town/college. Most people don't support teams that are good, they support teams they share an emotional connection with. I think it's a different in StarCraft though. On December 30 2011 02:45 ES.Genie wrote: There is an obvious logic gap. You dont share anything with someone just because hes born in the same city as you and there is absolutely no reason to support him just based on this fact. Thats like saying "Oh we have the same haircolour, ergo I want you to win." Tell that to the millions of people that support their country or local team... It's not a logic gap, anyone with a fiber of patriotism supports their country's team.. | ||
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gslavik
United States72 Posts
On December 30 2011 00:31 IdrA wrote: big teams are businesses. eg, and other high tier teams, cant pay bad players significant money while continuing to put out the salaries necessary to attract good players. good players are the ones who bring in viewership and thus sponsorships, to both the team and to tournaments. without those sponsorships ESPORTS ceases to exist. foreign sc2 isnt set up for a full on team house structure like korea is simply because of geography and foreign players' lack of dedication, so the expenses of allowing an upcoming player to focus only on practice arent worth it. you have to pay their entire cost of living and theres a pretty good chance you're never gonna make anything significant off them. most people dont end up being that good. in korea this is acceptable because you can just stick them in an existing team house for very low cost and kick them out when you realize they suck. the one player of every 10 who has some success in tournaments justifies this, and the 1 in every 100 who becomes a star makes the industry successful. so foreign esports has to focus on the existing stars, or buy them from korea, and hope that low level non korean teams stumble upon a talented player and do enough to let him make it once in a while. To expand on what Idra is saying. When you have a large body of people trying to achieve something within a discipline (whether it is academic, or physical, or a combination of both), you are bound to have a certain (low single digit) percentage of people who become very good. In 1980s, in USSR, chess was massive. It was massive that probably 10-25% of an elementary school's student body would be getting chess lessons and play in chess clubs. Contrast this to USA in 1980s where chess was not popular at the time. If you look at the current list of top chess players, you will see that Russia and Ukraine are the most represented in terms of highest skilled players. In US, football is much more massive than soccer. In Brazil, soccer is a lot more massive that football, which is why Brazil is known for having many great soccer players, while US is know to have many great football players. Maybe CSL is a start of something. Although Starcraft is not something which you can do 2-3 hours of drills for a practice and call it a day. Which brings up another point. SC2 requires much more training/practice than most other types of competition. | ||
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gslavik
United States72 Posts
On December 30 2011 02:45 ES.Genie wrote: There is an obvious logic gap. You dont share anything with someone just because hes born in the same city as you and there is absolutely no reason to support him just based on this fact. Thats like saying "Oh we have the same haircolour, ergo I want you to win." And yet, there are Colts fans this season. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
I think it's a different in StarCraft though. I don't think it is that different. A lot of people support players from their country, which is great. And you have your race supports like Terrans, Zergs, Tosses. And you have strategy supporters like bio, mech, anti 1-1-1, etc... Which is like sports as well because some people will support teams for their playstyle eventhough the team might not be the 'best'. And for sports, a lot of people support their local teams because they can see them in person and thus have a better connection. Now, with internet, there is less 'local' connection since you can follow teams from all around the world but it is still there. | ||
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ES.Genie
Germany1370 Posts
On December 30 2011 02:47 flick.ch wrote: So what you're saying is that you're a glory hunter? Only support teams that do well? The primary reason why people support a team in traditional sports is because of geographic proximity or historical family ties with a certain country/town/college. Most people don't support teams that are good, they support teams they share an emotional connection with. I think it's a different in StarCraft though. Tell that to the millions of people that support their country or local team... It's not a logic gap, anyone with a fiber of patriotism supports their country's team.. Again: Something is not logic or natural or good, just because millions of people do it. Please give me a few good(rational) reasons why I am supposed to support a team/player just because he is from my region/country. | ||
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Doc.Rivers
United States404 Posts
On December 30 2011 02:45 ES.Genie wrote: There is an obvious logic gap. You dont share anything with someone just because hes born in the same city as you and there is absolutely no reason to support him just based on this fact. Thats like saying "Oh we have the same haircolour, ergo I want you to win." Get over yourself, bud. Your hipster argument is derailing the thread and I can't believe you haven't been warned yet lol. | ||
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TheDraken
United States640 Posts
On December 30 2011 02:45 ES.Genie wrote: There is an obvious logic gap. You dont share anything with someone just because hes born in the same city as you and there is absolutely no reason to support him just based on this fact. Thats like saying "Oh we have the same haircolour, ergo I want you to win." no. for more established cultures the people in a town could very well be distantly related. besides, even if they aren't related, they share the same culture and likely have similar values. at least in america, many towns are built around a single major industry which means everyone living there at least has a mutual interest or appreciation in said trade. your overall comment just seems antisocial and "above" sports loyalties. that's no fun  | ||
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SCTallbus
United States56 Posts
Logic even says that foreigners MUST become as good or better than Koreans. The population of foreigner areas is greater, therefore more talent, that's just how it is, and Sweden's video game scene along with Germany and a few others is absolutely massive, so what else can happen. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
Again: Something is not logic or natural or good, just because millions of people do it. Please give me a few good(rational) reasons why I am supposed to support a team/player just because he is from my region/country. Not everything is logical. Even simple things like "Why do you like to watch Starcraft?" can be explained by pure logic. That is why like and dislike are emotions. | ||
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Almonjin
35 Posts
On December 30 2011 01:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: So people dislike EG because EG is using their resources to their fullest potential? That's hardly a good reason to dislike EG, in my opinion, but okay. If you don't like EG (or the Yankees or whatever token rich sports team you want to refer to) because they have money, fine. But EG did nothing illegal to obtain their acquisitions, which is the important part. Business is business. If you would like to obtain a player and have something better to offer them than their current team can offer, then it makes all the sense in the world to do just that so that they play for your team. You want to create a good team (whether that means winning things, being visible in the scene, having big personalities, whatever), and so you're going to play to win when it comes to acquiring ideal players. Obviously, the fans of the old team who lost their player to EG are going to be sour, but that's expected. Sucks for them, but it's not like EG did anything wrong. EDIT: Anyways, I'm ridiculously excited to see who the new player is!  - The people that dislike rich teams have a very good reason, they use their economic resources to aggregate a superior talent pool, giving them an unfair off-field advantage. - Sports fans watch to be entertained, and one of the most significant elements in sports entertainment is the perception that a match is between evenly matched opponents. Me playing a game against Idra would be ludicrous, and while the first couple games would have hilarity value it would quickly get boring; because the outcome is predictable. - This effect is somewhat countered by the fact that some viewers will choose to associate with a "winning" team, and will gravitate towards teams with an unfair economic advantage and support them - but overall large differences in the resources available to teams detracts from the entertainment value of the sport as a whole. - It could be argued that this leads to an "underdog" dynamic where the dominant team (with the unfair advantage) wins most of the time but occasionally (the end of the Red Sox curse, for instance), an underdog causes an upset that increases the compelling nature of the sport. I would argue, however, that this fails to balance the loss of "potential" entertainment value caused by the boring dominance of an economically dominant team for decades (the Yankees). "Business is business" - The assumption that underlies this statement is that teams with an unfair advantage will act on their advantage. Ok, sure, but this is pretty self evident. What isn't as apparent is that the managerial structure of teams are caught in one of the classic catch -22's of capitalism - that is the short term decisions necessary to keep pace with competitors are deleterious to the overall industry/scene/whatever. In this case, using an overriding economic advantage to diminish the entertainment value of esports is a necessary but carcinogenic decision. The reason is complicated, but suffice to say that the job of team administrators is to sell audiences to advertisers and sponsors, and while obviously the long-term death of esports isn't in their best interest their decisions are framed by short term problems. | ||
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ES.Genie
Germany1370 Posts
On December 30 2011 02:53 Doc.Rivers wrote: Get over yourself, bud. Your hipster argument is derailing the thread and I can't believe you haven't been warned yet lol. Hipster argument? Wtf? On December 30 2011 02:57 vthree wrote: Not everything is logical. Even simple things like "Why do you like to watch Starcraft?" can be explained by pure logic. That is why like and dislike are emotions. There are good reasons to like Starcraft, there are no good reasons for that "national tie" thing. On December 30 2011 02:54 TheDraken wrote: your overall comment just seems antisocial and "above" sports loyalties. that's no fun So disliking unnecessary hate is antisocial? I dont think so. Its actually really antisocial to hate someone just based on the fact that he likes a specific team/player. | ||
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Nazario
Germany6 Posts
On December 30 2011 02:52 ES.Genie wrote: Again: Something is not logic or natural or good, just because millions of people do it. Please give me a few good(rational) reasons why I am supposed to support a team/player just because he is from my region/country. Emotions man, emotions. Nothing rational to see here. You are supporting good players for the very same reason. Because their incredible in-game action make you cheer. Also, when you are supporting "nice" players like Socke, it is because of: emotions. | ||
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Canucklehead
Canada5074 Posts
On December 30 2011 02:57 SCTallbus wrote: Logic even says that foreigners MUST become as good or better than Koreans. The population of foreigner areas is greater, therefore more talent, that's just how it is, and Sweden's video game scene along with Germany and a few others is absolutely massive, so what else can happen. That's not really how it is, otherwise China with their population should be dominant in every sport. What matters is quality, not quantity. I don't think the foreign scene will catchup for the simple reason that there are very few up and coming players in the foreign scene. Sure the money in the west is growing, but it's still going to the same players that have been there since beta with a few exceptions like stephano. It's just very hard for an up and coming player to make it in the west. They need to get picked up by a team to earn a salary so they can afford to be a pro-gamer. However, as Idra mentioned earlier, it makes no sense for an established team to pick up an up and coming player with no tournament results, so the only option for them is to join a less established team for little salary. Most players are going to choose school or work over that. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
Logic even says that foreigners MUST become as good or better than Koreans. The population of foreigner areas is greater, therefore more talent, that's just how it is, and Sweden's video game scene along with Germany and a few others is absolutely massive, so what else can happen. Do you know how mainstream Starcraft is in Korea? Culture acceptance has a huge impact due to financial and other reasons. Currently, Koreans have the best training infrastructure for SC/SC2 gaming. Will foreigners catch up? It will depend on the continual development. The Chinese have a strong WC3 presence since WC3 was popular there and players could make a living. It is the same as other sports, why is basketball dominated by the US? (although other countries are catching up). It is all about the training and infrastructure. And although Sweden's and Germany's video game scene is growing, it is still not to the level SC was in Korea. Famous players like Boxer, NaDa were in national commericals and on Coke bottles. When I see Idra in an Intel commercial with Bieber, then we can say the video game scene is equal to Korea. | ||
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Radin
United States57 Posts
Again: Something is not logic or natural or good, just because millions of people do it. Please give me a few good(rational) reasons why I am supposed to support a team/player just because he is from my region/country. Actually, if you read any beginner-level psychology textbook, you will learn that human beings tend to support what they "know." Therefore, it is natural. Perhaps it is because humans are afraid of what they "don't know." Either way, you are wrong. Now, if you're looking for rational reasons to support a player who is from around you, I suggest that you stop looking at them as a "player who lives by me" and instead think of them as a local business owner in your hometown. There are many "rational" reasons to support local businesses, here are two: 1. Boosting local economy (in terms of SC, this may be getting more players from your area to excel at the game) 2. Drawing attention to your local area (viewership, sponsors, travel) EDIT: Massive props to EG. One little tweet is going to yield an 80+ page thread on TL! | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
There are good reasons to like Starcraft Please state some good and totally rational reasons. There are certainly reasons but I doubt they are all 100% rational. At some point, it comes down to just liking it. Otherwise, everyone is the world should like Starcraft, right? I.E. I like Starcraft because it involves strategy. --> Why do you like strategy games? --> Because I like to think --> why do you like to think when gaming?--> and this goes on... | ||
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Almonjin
35 Posts
On December 30 2011 03:04 Nazario wrote: Emotions man, emotions. Nothing rational to see here. You are supporting good players for the very same reason. Because their incredible in-game action make you cheer. Also, when you are supporting "nice" players like Socke, it is because of: emotions. This entire logic/emotion false dichotomy is getting stale. If you take a look at evolutionary psychology, its apparent that the ostensibly "irrational" loyalty people have for sports teams is an outgrowth of the fact that our species was originally organized around small bands of hunter gatherers competing with others for natural resources. The impact of this situation on the evolution of human psychology is reflected in the in-group/out-group phenomenon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingroups_and_outgroups Formation of these groups seems superficially "irrational" or "emotional," but given that emotions themselves are rational responses within the context they developed in, the line blurs. They aren't now, but they were then, and to a certain extent they remain relevant. | ||
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