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On December 25 2011 01:17 RyanRushia wrote:
i'm a warcraft 3 player... totally miss my heroes, loved the dynamic they brought into the game, and quite a fan of hero units as i like how they help change game
Heroes do not belong to SC.
Someone should use the SC2 map editor and create a WC4 wannabe, I probably would enjoy it more than SC2, but please no Heroes in SC.
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To be honest, Mothership is bullshit in that it pretty much fucks up every zerg composition in an even battle. Not even that, but once Protoss gets a big enough ball, Zerg's chance to winning effectively falls to 0%. That's why I think Zerg needs a "hero unit" more then Terran, but whatever, don't even like the idea of a hero unit in the first place.
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For fuck's sake,
Hows that WC3 pro tournament scene? Most people don't even consider it competitive in the fair sense. It's there, but noone sees it as the pinnacle of skill precisely because of hero units.
is false and irrelevant. The only similarity between the Mothership/HotS Thor and WC3 heroes is that you may only have one at a time. That's it. The rest of their mechanics are entirely different and their roles in their respective games are entirely different.
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On December 25 2011 01:35 birdkicker wrote:
To be honest, Mothership is bullshit in that it pretty much fucks up every zerg composition in an even battle. Not even that, but once Protoss gets a big enough ball, Zerg's chance to winning effectively falls to 0%. That's why I think Zerg needs a "hero unit" more then Terran, but whatever, don't even like the idea of a hero unit in the first place.
Ever heard of spreading units? I hear those floating units can fly over cliffs and stuff. I think it won't be that hard. I also hear that a zerg spell caster unit has a mind control ability on top of a stunning aoe dmg spell and spammable unit spawn. I also hear that mind control ability takes less time to research than building a Mothership and its energy for vortex.
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On December 25 2011 01:01 power-overwhelming wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 16:47 ZiegFeld wrote:
As badly written as OP's post is, he has a point.
Where the hell are the hero units for Terran and Zerg?
Or remove Mothership entirely and offer each race another mass-able high tier unit.
And yeah. Motherships are effing ridiculous. They aren't overpowered, but definitely offer Protoss a considerable edge in the late game. Really? You're going there? Any end game unit composition ALWAYS HARD counters protoss unit composition. Protoss only has one unit composition, gate + colo/archon. Mothership only works vs the Zerg (vikings destroys motherships easily), but that is only if the Zerg clumps their air together. people bash protoss players for being bad because their units were clumped in a wider aoe spell than storm (before the patch). Telling them "lol spread ur unitz diamond playerz". Now zerg air units with better pathing should have easier time avoiding vortex. Terran and Zerg don't need a hero unit. Mothership is not even viable against good zergs. Hero using mothership against foreigners is not a good example.
I'm guessing you're a Protoss player... I'm pretty sure Protoss has the edge in any late-game scenario vs all three races, that's what they get compensated for having such a vulnerable early game.
On topic, the fact that motherships are used quite often in lategame PvZ to stop huge broodlord forces shows that they're not just some hero unit for bronzies to get and feel like they're playing Warcraft in space - it's actually getting fair usage (more so than the carrier lol) and isn't completely trolling to get. If they manage to make the Odin an actually viable unit that has some reason to be in the game, there's no issue with it just being a Terran unit. As long as it has some facet in one of the T matchups then I see no reason for it not to get implemented. Who says every race has to have a hero unit? Nobody is refusing to play vP matchups because they have the only hero unit.
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I don't think Blizzard is "obsessed" with adding hero units.
1) They've openly admitted that the mothership is a failed unit and they want to get rid of it
2) The reason this hero thor exists is because Blizzard is reluctant to remove the unit entirely. Why? Because that would essentially remove the CE bonus that made your thors look special, and potentially upset a lot of players who bought it.
Don't expect the super-thor to be a viable unit in the competitive scene, its just there for fun.
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The mothership is being removed just when it was getting some uses. However, I agree with the sentiments OP has about hero units. Why bother? This is a war simulation not an rpg.
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On December 24 2011 23:36 goDrop_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 23:33 iaguz wrote:
Keep 'em I say!
People forget that there were these two units in Broodwar: The Scout and the Ghost. They served no actual strategic purpose because they were pretty much useless but when people built them it was badass. Why can't we have 'cool' units in SC2? Why can't we have fun with this fucking game? Because scout and ghosts we're terrible, and this Thor won't be, and to be honest, there was never a hero unit in Starcraft universe in multiplayer. topic: I don't want them to be implemented.
Yeah, because you clearly know the correct stats of that Thor.
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On December 25 2011 01:50 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2011 01:01 power-overwhelming wrote:On December 24 2011 16:47 ZiegFeld wrote:
As badly written as OP's post is, he has a point.
Where the hell are the hero units for Terran and Zerg?
Or remove Mothership entirely and offer each race another mass-able high tier unit.
And yeah. Motherships are effing ridiculous. They aren't overpowered, but definitely offer Protoss a considerable edge in the late game. Really? You're going there? Any end game unit composition ALWAYS HARD counters protoss unit composition. Protoss only has one unit composition, gate + colo/archon. Mothership only works vs the Zerg (vikings destroys motherships easily), but that is only if the Zerg clumps their air together. people bash protoss players for being bad because their units were clumped in a wider aoe spell than storm (before the patch). Telling them "lol spread ur unitz diamond playerz". Now zerg air units with better pathing should have easier time avoiding vortex. Terran and Zerg don't need a hero unit. Mothership is not even viable against good zergs. Hero using mothership against foreigners is not a good example. I'm guessing you're a Protoss player... I'm pretty sure Protoss has the edge in any late-game scenario vs all three races, that's what they get compensated for having such a vulnerable early game. On topic, the fact that motherships are used quite often in lategame PvZ to stop huge broodlord forces shows that they're not just some hero unit for bronzies to get and feel like they're playing Warcraft in space - it's actually getting fair usage (more so than the carrier lol) and isn't completely trolling to get. If they manage to make the Odin an actually viable unit that has some reason to be in the game, there's no issue with it just being a Terran unit. As long as it has some facet in one of the T matchups then I see no reason for it not to get implemented. Who says every race has to have a hero unit? Nobody is refusing to play vP matchups because they have the only hero unit.
and Im sure that those "race X has the best composition at time X" are bullshit to begin with.
For the rest of the post... very spot on!
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On December 25 2011 01:59 KingAce wrote:
The mothership is being removed just when it was getting some uses. However, I agree with the sentiments OP has about hero units. Why bother? This is a war simulation not an rpg.
No it's not. it's a RTS game based on unit stats(like "you can only build one of this") and action restriction.
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On December 24 2011 08:45 Noocta wrote:
Because Dustin like the idea.
He come from C&C, remember ?
HotS is C&C mixed with Transformers.
I agree with OP, hero units have no place in an rts like SC.
edit: Because of this new "hero" addition blizzard is doing, coupled with the other ridiculous changes they are making (wtf battle hellion and warhound?) I am at a crossroads on whether or not I want to buy HotS. I enjoy WoL, but I feel like Dustin is doing things based on his C&C experience and isnt in touch with the long term community and only thinks about the casual short term players and their money.
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On December 25 2011 01:47 power-overwhelming wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2011 01:35 birdkicker wrote:
To be honest, Mothership is bullshit in that it pretty much fucks up every zerg composition in an even battle. Not even that, but once Protoss gets a big enough ball, Zerg's chance to winning effectively falls to 0%. That's why I think Zerg needs a "hero unit" more then Terran, but whatever, don't even like the idea of a hero unit in the first place. Ever heard of spreading units? I hear those floating units can fly over cliffs and stuff. I think it won't be that hard. I also hear that a zerg spell caster unit has a mind control ability on top of a stunning aoe dmg spell and spammable unit spawn. I also hear that mind control ability takes less time to research than building a Mothership and its energy for vortex.
Are you stupid? You have no idea what you're talking about. Spreading broodlords leaves them vulnerable for stalkers to snipe them easily, and even if not, you will be fighting with half of what you have to all of the protoss's units. Neural parasite is 7 range so its a joke that you are even taking that into the discussion; you shouldn't be able to neural parasite a protoss's mothership.
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On December 25 2011 01:47 power-overwhelming wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2011 01:35 birdkicker wrote:
To be honest, Mothership is bullshit in that it pretty much fucks up every zerg composition in an even battle. Not even that, but once Protoss gets a big enough ball, Zerg's chance to winning effectively falls to 0%. That's why I think Zerg needs a "hero unit" more then Terran, but whatever, don't even like the idea of a hero unit in the first place. Ever heard of spreading units? I hear those floating units can fly over cliffs and stuff. I think it won't be that hard. I also hear that a zerg spell caster unit has a mind control ability on top of a stunning aoe dmg spell and spammable unit spawn. I also hear that mind control ability takes less time to research than building a Mothership and its energy for vortex.
What you just said makes me think you haven't actually played as Zerg vs a Protoss deathball that includes the Mothership, so I'm going to explain to you why you are wrong.
Spreading your Broodlords is not really a very useful suggestion because even if you spread them out as best as you can you will still be losing a significant portion of your total army and anything left outside of the Vortex is very vulnerable to simply dying since a portion of your army is not in the battle at all.
Neural Parasite is not a solution either since it has been gimped so heavily pretty much any time you try to use it vs a Protoss all that happens is your Infestor dies for nothing even if you are crazy good with how you position your Infestors.
Infestors also have Fungal Growth...yeah, ok? That's a neat little tidbit you added but it's entirely irrelevant to this discussion since Fungal Growth has never and will never be a significant factor regarding this issue.
The only semi-relevant thing you mentioned was Infested Terrans since I have seen lately that there is a method involving spamming Infested Terrans outside of the Vortex and microing your Broodlords out over them to not entirely lose your whole army for nothing. The only major problem with this tactic is that if this approach becomes more common all Protoss will have to do is be prepared for it and use Colossus or Storm to kill off most of the Infested Terrans before the Vortex wears off.
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They should just make it the arbiter again. It was a great unit and Id rather have stasis field like ability to balance it but keep a very strong late game unit vs a ridiculously strong late game zerg army which will only become better in hots while im left with less options (carriers).
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On December 25 2011 02:53 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2011 01:47 power-overwhelming wrote:On December 25 2011 01:35 birdkicker wrote:
To be honest, Mothership is bullshit in that it pretty much fucks up every zerg composition in an even battle. Not even that, but once Protoss gets a big enough ball, Zerg's chance to winning effectively falls to 0%. That's why I think Zerg needs a "hero unit" more then Terran, but whatever, don't even like the idea of a hero unit in the first place. Ever heard of spreading units? I hear those floating units can fly over cliffs and stuff. I think it won't be that hard. I also hear that a zerg spell caster unit has a mind control ability on top of a stunning aoe dmg spell and spammable unit spawn. I also hear that mind control ability takes less time to research than building a Mothership and its energy for vortex. What you just said makes me think you haven't actually played as Zerg vs a Protoss deathball that includes the Mothership, so I'm going to explain to you why you are wrong. Spreading your Broodlords is not really a very useful suggestion because even if you spread them out as best as you can you will still be losing a significant portion of your total army and anything left outside of the Vortex is very vulnerable to simply dying since a portion of your army is not in the battle at all. Neural Parasite is not a solution either since it has been gimped so heavily pretty much any time you try to use it vs a Protoss all that happens is your Infestor dies for nothing even if you are crazy good with how you position your Infestors. Infestors also have Fungal Growth...yeah, ok? That's a neat little tidbit you added but it's entirely irrelevant to this discussion since Fungal Growth has never and will never be a significant factor regarding this issue. The only semi-relevant thing you mentioned was Infested Terrans since I have seen lately that there is a method involving spamming Infested Terrans outside of the Vortex and microing your Broodlords out over them to not entirely lose your whole army for nothing. The only major problem with this tactic is that if this approach becomes more common all Protoss will have to do is be prepared for it and use Colossus or Storm to kill off most of the Infested Terrans before the Vortex wears off.
pros started to spread broodlords months ago. not only against mothetships, but also against templar. Grubby vs stephano from battlr for berlin comes to my mind initially as an example.
There is really nothing else to say about this. it's happening and it is efficient.
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Man i really hope they scrap this hero unit idea by the end of it.
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I think anyone who still likes SC1 better, can (and should) then play SC1.
SC2 was made to address a large audience. A "hero unit" (though it is not a hero unit in the sense of Warcraft 3) appeals to some. Why not?
Many assumptions in this thread are too early. SC2 is really dumbed down, compared to SC1? I would rather say, SC2 has not been figured out yet. It even has not been completely released yet as two expansions are still to come. If there is a "hero unit", you don't need to build it. I don't understand why so many guys oppose this concept.
Did the mothership really hurt the game? I rather remember the excitement of the audience of someone went for an early mothership or built the mothership at all. A hero unit (mothership or thor) can also attract lower league players.
Why not get them into SC? Really, why not? It still is Starcraft after all, but modernized for our time.
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I Don't know what the big fuss is all about. Sometimes I begin to believe that some people in this community would prefer to have only units that work like the marine, with no function except to run and shoot.
The mothership was an attempt to put complexity into the functionality of units, similar to how any spell caster makes the game more interesting. It failed. Now Blizzard is going to take what it learned and try again. Don't like that Terran gets it this time around? Don't worry, your banelings will soon move burrowed, I think you zergs will have enough fun with that. Wanna harass or counterattack a Protoss? well, be careful, because they will be able to recall back to their base WITHOUT a mothership on the field. Hell, they can just turn their Nexus, or ANY building in question into a friggen cannon.
Some people will like the Thor and some won't, that's just the nature of the beast. Just PLEASE quit commenting on its balance gravitas, and whether or not SCII is conforming to "what an RTS should be like". No game should have to conform to constraints posed to it simply by what genre people place it in.
And this isn't Broodwar. Stop criticizing SCII for not being the same game with better graphics.
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On December 24 2011 08:34 Ninja_Bread wrote:
What a flawed vote system "especially when only one race has access to it"
Why can't people who make polls just have 'yes' 'no' and then let people write why in their descriptions....
Yes, thank you. I say this on so many polls.
So many polls have ridiculous options like...
-Yes, they should not allow hero units in the game.
-No, I think they should have hero units in the game even though it makes it imbalanced.
-_-
That's a bit of an exaggeration for this one, but not for some of the polls I have seen. Is it really so difficult for people to leave their opinions and bias out of a poll so that people can vote fairly? I looked at the options and didn't vote because my opinion did not line up with any of them, while a simple, "Yes" "No" "I don't know" selection would have covered everything, or at least nearly everything.
On December 25 2011 03:35 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2011 02:53 BeeNu wrote:On December 25 2011 01:47 power-overwhelming wrote:On December 25 2011 01:35 birdkicker wrote:
To be honest, Mothership is bullshit in that it pretty much fucks up every zerg composition in an even battle. Not even that, but once Protoss gets a big enough ball, Zerg's chance to winning effectively falls to 0%. That's why I think Zerg needs a "hero unit" more then Terran, but whatever, don't even like the idea of a hero unit in the first place. Ever heard of spreading units? I hear those floating units can fly over cliffs and stuff. I think it won't be that hard. I also hear that a zerg spell caster unit has a mind control ability on top of a stunning aoe dmg spell and spammable unit spawn. I also hear that mind control ability takes less time to research than building a Mothership and its energy for vortex. What you just said makes me think you haven't actually played as Zerg vs a Protoss deathball that includes the Mothership, so I'm going to explain to you why you are wrong. Spreading your Broodlords is not really a very useful suggestion because even if you spread them out as best as you can you will still be losing a significant portion of your total army and anything left outside of the Vortex is very vulnerable to simply dying since a portion of your army is not in the battle at all. Neural Parasite is not a solution either since it has been gimped so heavily pretty much any time you try to use it vs a Protoss all that happens is your Infestor dies for nothing even if you are crazy good with how you position your Infestors. Infestors also have Fungal Growth...yeah, ok? That's a neat little tidbit you added but it's entirely irrelevant to this discussion since Fungal Growth has never and will never be a significant factor regarding this issue. The only semi-relevant thing you mentioned was Infested Terrans since I have seen lately that there is a method involving spamming Infested Terrans outside of the Vortex and microing your Broodlords out over them to not entirely lose your whole army for nothing. The only major problem with this tactic is that if this approach becomes more common all Protoss will have to do is be prepared for it and use Colossus or Storm to kill off most of the Infested Terrans before the Vortex wears off. pros started to spread broodlords months ago. not only against mothetships, but also against templar. Grubby vs stephano from battlr for berlin comes to my mind initially as an example. There is really nothing else to say about this. it's happening and it is efficient.
And conveniently he didn't even take a look from the protoss perspective who also has to send his units into the vortex, therefore putting them out of the fight. On top of that some will naturally run in if you try to attack a zerg who backs a bit away from the vortex.
In any event, I would much rather have the arbiter back... I'm not sure why they are so stubborn about bringing back units that seem like they will fit. It seems like they are worried about getting called out for not being original... I just don't understand.
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These are not hero units, please learn more about RTS's and Hero units to begin with!
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EPT
