On December 24 2011 12:31 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 12:21 Humanfails wrote:On December 24 2011 08:45 Noocta wrote:
Because Dustin like the idea.
He come from C&C, remember ?
yeah, a lot of people dont remember or choose not to remember that. Nor do they remember that blizz team was fired and a new one was hired, so its not even the same people that made sc1. of course theres no way sc2 is at all the successor of sc1. completely different team and completely different figurehead guy.
I'm not saying DB is bad, Im saying he's SO bad that all of his intended reasons for puytting in shit units like the colossus, for example, are completely superfluous. Go look at his public interview, all the points he makes about units and what to do with them and why are worthless. The current metagame disproves everything he idealized in his interview.
remember that in C&C it devolved into tank wars. basically it came down to who had +1 extra tank and better micro. Where's the C&C pro scene, or a history of it being competitive? What, there isn't anything like that?
Think about how strong carriers and ultralisks and guardians and bcs were in brood war. That was due to the fact that lower tech was weaker in many aspects and that those units were the ultimate end. Now all these units have just as much drawback and crappiness as earlier tech units and mothership and thor were the ultimate end. But there isn't one for zerg.
And think about this. Inherently good changes for the game are being delayed for HoTS. You have to pay to have a game that works. Back to the Tank vs tank wars of C&C; TvT, ZvZ, PvP. tanks vs tanks, raoch vs roach, stalker vs stalker. Even in non mirror match ups, certain units are clearly what you want, and other units are clearly dead end tech. Noone uses hydralisk against terran.
The game isn't "balanced" no matter what people actually say. And hero units are one single defining factor that contributes to imbalance because you have to account for this singular entity upsetting everything when it shows up. I could go on about a mathematical proof that shows how a game can be unbalanced yet appear balanced via win rates, but he gist is that people never get more skill than is enough to beat the other person, so imbalance will be hidden by skill caps that are created by not having more skill than is necessary to win.
Tank vs tank in broodwar, muta vs muta in broodwar... bio is useless vs protoss in broodwar, carriers and bcs are useless vs zerg, dark archons are useless vs terran...
Just a bunch of crap in your post. Colossus is in the game because the reaver is broken vs bio.
Low tier units kind of sucked (and not even that is really true...) because you couldnt control them properly.
It's not even funny to argue against such a post as it is just wrong in everything it tells...
muta vs muta wasnt because of devourer. carriers and BCs were perfectly fine vs zerg, if zerg goes for dark swarm, you just move back. Don't go mass BC and expect that to work. They are giant ships that do damage and soak lots of damage, but they work better mixed with actual support units. dark archons maelstrom bio and keep it in place for storm, like how fungal + bane KINDA beats terran bio in this game. Reaver wasn't broken. 125 damage after upgrade and it still had weaknesses. Colossus is broken, not reaver was. Colossus Fires very fast and at 15 damage opposed to 125, kills so much more zerg units compared to reaver that its stupid.
You didn't play much brood war? cause I played 10 years of it.
On December 24 2011 12:43 Goldfish wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 12:20 Big J wrote:On December 24 2011 12:17 Goldfish wrote:
This might have been posted before but I think the only reason Blizzard is keeping the Thor is because of Collector's Edition bonus from WoL. They probably don't want anyone to be mad from buying CE for CE Thor then having it gone on HotS (when likely no one plays WoL anymore which means no more showing off that CE Thor).
Now my solution to Blizzard is to make a new CE version of a unit (The Warhound?) and transfer it to that unit.
They might not keep the Thor in game forever - what if they remove it in LotV? I hope Blizzard figures this out but the easiest way to solve this issue is to transfer the CE to a new unit. Make a CE version of Warhound that CE WoL players will be able to have.
I don't have CE but I can see some players being mad if they no longer have their exclusive unit (I would be too considering the CE Thor does look crazy).
Another way to solve this is to let CE players chose one mercenary version of a unit (like instead of marines, they can pick the war pigs marines).
Honestly... this is bullshit. It is the WoL collectors edition for a reason. in WoL you will still have your thor and in HotS I doubt that the (redisigned) thor will have a different design for people who bought the WoL collectors edition.
How is it BS? Few things:
1. Why no units removed from Terran but from only Zerg and Protoss. Dustin Browder already stated he thought Terran had too much stuff.
2. If they wanted a hero unit, why not just keep the Mothership but remove/revamp Vortex? (Only issue with Vortex is the Archon Toilet still works.) They are already redesigning certain existing units in HotS (Hydralisk gets speed upgrade off creep, Banes can move underground, and of course the Thor is redesigned). Why not just revamp the Mothership a little if they wanted a hero unit?
3. You doubt that based on? In WoW you keep things like pets from every CE (and achievement too but as feats of strength). While yes, it's an MMO, it does show Blizzard doesn't want to make people mad. In SC2 it's assumed you'll keep achievements/portraits too (there is no reason to think not since it's integrated with battle.net rather than SC2 WoL alone). The flag that determines whether you get the CE Thor is based on players having that CE Feats of Strength Achievement.
4. Finally if they remove CE Thor for HotS, this will discourage people from buying the HotS CE version (which will likely because there has been a CE for every WoW expansion and for Diablo III too). How will they entice people to buy the CE version if they don't get the stuff carried over? If you take into account SC, D2, and WC3, the expansion will make the original deserted/obsolete (few people play WC3 RoC for example).
Also I don't confirm that as a fact (Blizzard keeping the Thor only for CE) but just my speculation.
Not only are they not removing terran units, they're adding more. Consider this; they cross bred the firebat and vulture for a unit that moves fast, costs no gas (unlike the firebat), and does lots of splash AoE vs light. This increases versatility, yes? droppable harass, fast harass and run, good AoE vs light in full attacks. Medivacs take the medic and dropship and wed it to create a drop harass that is unprecedented in power compared to brood war. Not only that but if you manage to kill the marines, most of the time the medivac (healer PLUS dropship) gets away to save terran cost, unlike dropping medics and marines, ro using medics durting an attack. Then terran got mule calldown as well.
And then dustin comes out and says "Yes, terran has too much versatility" when the huge problem of marines continued to be brought up, not just by casual players and Bnet forum warriors, but by pros as well, people who make money from playing. And his response was "Too much versatility as of now".
DB, you explicitly designed terran to be more versatile than it was in brood war. Do you think before you create a product? Or do you do things because "they're cool" and hope for the best?
On December 24 2011 17:09 Rumpus wrote:
Haven't you guys heard? Blizzard's new marketing philosophy is quantity over quality. A very Activision style mentality.
If they do really want "Uber units" to be in this game and work as intended they have to stop half-assing the whole idea. How is this even considered a reasonable addition or change to the game when A) Absolutely no one finds them intriguing or "casual catering" and B) Only one race at a time is getting one!
By that logic you're trying to cater to a group of once non-Starcraft interested gamers BUT only a third of them (given all the races are played equally). This logic is a complete and utter failure and an incredibly huge debacle that they've put themselves into.
I don't really like to be critical of Blizzard because their track record in the long term is phenomenal. But this is just pathetic, it is clear they care little for this game or its continued success.
They're not introducing any changes that are explicitly for HotS. Not just new units, but change to existing units. They're holding you from these changes until paying money for them. This is activision policy and marketing technique down to the letter. Blizzard was good, I still have original warcraft and warcraft 2 CDs that I can load up in DOSbox and have a blast. I don't even have the battle.net version of WC2, thats how old my WC2 is. I got SC, and it was great, a lot of thought was put into it to make it a unique and well rounded strategy game. A lot of people are saying that the expansion to starcraft was designed to fix flaws in the original game, and I take issue with that, mostly because the medic was overkill for terran bio, and zerg had no AoE vs bio other than plague. they introduced the medic, to buff terran, and they introduced the lurker to counter the fact that terran got buffed. This is clearly an Addition design and not a Fix design. Not even that, At the time of releasing it, Blizzard, as it originally was, did not even hint at an expansion for SC.
All of the sudden, Activision "acquires" blizzard, fires a lot of the original workers, puts DB in charge, is a company solely responsible for splitting the Modern warfare series into 3 separate games, even though the hacks worked on day 1 of MW3's release, proving they had doing nothing to the game up new maps and guns, and charged full price for it, and then releases SC2 while also stating they're releasing two additional "expansions" for the game for new units and gameplay.
They announce beforehand that it's a multi-part game that will cost you multi-part dollars. What is this really? Blizzard doesn't exist in the old sense anymore, it is a name brand now and a subsidiary of a large corporation. The interest of large money making corporations are; keep them paying, keep them coming back for more, draw out the seller/consumer relationship as long as possible, by any means necessary. Anyone who's researched or personally experience credit card debt should understand this business model.
On the subject of control, Imagine going into a store and everything is bolted down, because you, the customer who buys from them, are not trusted, but thieves regularly break in and steal these bolted down goods with ease and are never caught. Blizzard requires that tournaments taking place get license from Blizzard. Even places that have gotten licensed have had their internet shut down by blizzard via IP or site ban, due to Blizzard forcing customers to log on and play. This also ensures that you must pay 60 dollars, and if you want to play with other people at all, whether over the internet or (over the internet again) in a house lan or a small tournament, you have to have an account that bnet approves of, completely opposite of the Spawn Installs the original blizzard explicitly put on Sc1 to allow people to play with friends, etc. meanwhile, the thieves who crack and create illegal SC2 copies get away with it completely free. restrictions only degrade the experience of legitimate customers. Why do customers opt to allow their experience to be degraded to such a degree because of a very small percentage of copyright infringers?
I feel people shouldn't buy HoTS until all the long standing issues are addressed. That would give activision a choice, a complete loss, or going the extra mile to give customers what they want. they would get to look good and salvage their game.
EPT
