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Active: 22304 users

The Hero Unit obsession by blizzard?

Forum Index > SC2 General
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LimeNade
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2125 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-26 16:34:38
December 23 2011 23:32 GMT
#1
Hmm not sure if this is allowed but just did it. This thread serves no purpose anymore, and I'm tired of trolls taking my words out of context of the main point of what I was trying to get at.

Happy Holidays!
JD, need I say more? :D
Ninja_Bread
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States113 Posts
December 23 2011 23:34 GMT
#2
What a flawed vote system "especially when only one race has access to it"

Why can't people who make polls just have 'yes' 'no' and then let people write why in their descriptions....
Mang
iCanada
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada10660 Posts
December 23 2011 23:36 GMT
#3
I think they can work out if utilized properly... but it is kind of silly to make one unit be the crux of an army. If it is too good you habve to get it every game, if it isn't that good why spend all the time teching to it?

And seriously dude, %$#@ Archon Toilets in the eye.

-.-
ZAiNs
Profile Joined July 2010
United Kingdom6525 Posts
December 23 2011 23:36 GMT
#4
It seems like you just want to vent because you lost to a Mothership...
tx.zyclon
Profile Joined August 2010
United States145 Posts
December 23 2011 23:36 GMT
#5
I agree with this. Either have a hero unit for all races or none at all (preferably the latter.) -- Hero units aren't necessarily stupid, but they don't belong in sc2.
legaton
Profile Joined December 2010
France1763 Posts
December 23 2011 23:36 GMT
#6
The mothership is an almost useless unit, it is used on late game PvZ on 10% of the games, and usually for no effect as the zerg player probably made corruptors against colossus
No GG, No Skill - Jaedong <3
hitpoint
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1511 Posts
December 23 2011 23:40 GMT
#7
Hero units have no place in starcraft, clearly. I've finally gotten used to the mothership, but it's getting ridiculous with the new Thor.
It's spelled LOSE not LOOSE.
Asymmetric
Profile Joined June 2011
Scotland1309 Posts
December 23 2011 23:41 GMT
#8
It's just a game mechanic like any other, no different from terran having mules, zerg having creep spread or Protoss having warp in. Whether it is balanced or not entirely comes down to cost/abilities/time/opportunity/etc. There is nothing inherently making hero units either good or bad in an RTS.

They are also not some new phenomena to the RTS genre. Despite not being in broodwar they've been in RTS's since the dawn of time, hell even CnC 1 had the commando.

NoobSkills
Profile Joined August 2009
United States1597 Posts
December 23 2011 23:42 GMT
#9
I claimed it was a "hero" day one. People said this isn't warcraft -_-

Either way if you think THIS is the reason they fail as a company now you're mistaken. It is THIS and everything else they do that fucking blows. They've sold out like many other companies. Too bad. Buy 3 games then finally receive the whole SC2 game. Balance for the moronic bronze leaguers who complain all day. Create the worst maps put those into the ladder which causes map pools for the tournaments to be shit as well except maybe the GSL. Now, they're making D3 and I bet once we reach the end game that will be shit as well.
Herfelt
Profile Joined June 2011
Denmark89 Posts
December 23 2011 23:42 GMT
#10
I think blizzard made a pretty good job with the mothership. It has its uses, but it is not so powerful that it is a part of any build. I also think that a hero unit needs to be something which brings more than just raw power to the army composition. Every race already got the beefy-high-damage units, but a spellcaster can change the outcome of battles without actually adding any firepower to the army (or very little).
Gladiator6
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden7024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-23 23:43:07
December 23 2011 23:42 GMT
#11
I don't like the poll, it should be some option that says just "No, not even if all races had hero units." That is my thoughts.
Flying, sOs, free, Light, Soulkey & ZerO
Kamikiri
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1319 Posts
December 23 2011 23:43 GMT
#12
On December 24 2011 08:36 legaton wrote:
The mothership is an almost useless unit, it is used on late game PvZ on 10% of the games, and usually for no effect as the zerg player probably made corruptors against colossus


Mothership is insanely good against zerg when it gets to the late game and you are both maxed. Please don't try to say it sucks vs zerg.

That being said, I don't know if Mothership is broken or not,(overpowered) my personal opinion is that it is just fine the way it is in the game. Although I do not think it is fair that the other 2 races don't have a hero unit. Blizzard did say though, hero units are not meant to be used in high level play, just for new players to screw around with so idk. Mothership is a little to strong to be a just "screwing around" unit, atleast thats how i feel when my broodlords get vortex and killed by storm/archons.
LimeNade
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2125 Posts
December 23 2011 23:43 GMT
#13
On December 24 2011 08:36 ZAiNs wrote:
It seems like you just want to vent because you lost to a Mothership...


no dude its not htat ive lost ot mothership 10000000000000000x of times ive played so many games on sc2 u prob have no idea. BUT the idea that blizzard is like okay lets take out mothership in HOTS BUTTTTT lets add another hero unit in HOTS yippy! seriously?
JD, need I say more? :D
Shebuha
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada1335 Posts
December 23 2011 23:43 GMT
#14
I hate that one race has a hero unit while others don't, and I hate hero units altogether which is why I play SC and not WC.
iCanada
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada10660 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-23 23:45:21
December 23 2011 23:44 GMT
#15
On December 24 2011 08:36 legaton wrote:
The mothership is an almost useless unit, it is used on late game PvZ on 10% of the games, and usually for no effect as the zerg player probably made corruptors against colossus


As a zerg player I disagree. Nothing like seeing ten archons and a mother ship wipeout 200/200 worth of Broods/Corruptors/Lings/Infestors/Ultras in five seconds.

And suddenly, the seven base zerg loses to the two base Toss with zero mining protoss who is down 80 supply with half of that supply being Probes.

-.-

Yes I'm bitter.
MCDayC
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom14464 Posts
December 23 2011 23:45 GMT
#16
I like the mothership. The new Thor looks terrible though, and yes, the premise of the whole thing is fairly stupid. But Vortex is sooooo awesome.
VERY FRAGILE, LIKE A BABY PANDA EGG
Noocta
Profile Joined June 2010
France12578 Posts
December 23 2011 23:45 GMT
#17
Because Dustin like the idea.
He come from C&C, remember ?
" I'm not gonna fight you. I'm gonna kick your ass ! "
xrapture
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States1644 Posts
December 23 2011 23:46 GMT
#18
What a horribly written thread; you write like a 5 year old: "I present to you the soon to be next mega broken unit that doesn't belong in an RTS the HERO THOR!!!!"

You offered no points as to why hero units don't belong in the game and your entire post is just a stream of consciousness. There's discussion to be had on hero units but you presented it in a very amateurish way. Can you imagine if you wrote an essay like this and handed it to your professor. He'd be insulted, just like the readers in this thread.
Everyone is either delusional, a nihlilst, or dead from suicide.
LimeNade
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2125 Posts
December 23 2011 23:47 GMT
#19
On December 24 2011 08:36 legaton wrote:
The mothership is an almost useless unit, it is used on late game PvZ on 10% of the games, and usually for no effect as the zerg player probably made corruptors against colossus


i posted 2 REPLAYS so u can WATCH them and see how u r horribly wrong
JD, need I say more? :D
zhurai
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States5660 Posts
December 23 2011 23:47 GMT
#20
On December 24 2011 08:45 Noocta wrote:
Because Dustin like the idea.
He come from C&C, remember ?

if that's the case all the races should have some hero unit, not just one race.
Twitter: @zhurai | Site: http://zhurai.com
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20284 Posts
December 23 2011 23:47 GMT
#21
I dont mind hero units, but even the mothership requires a bit of skill to use effectively vs infestor/broodlord/army (not as high skill cap as id like) but having a hero unit JUST for terran when they already have so many more units with effective uses throughout the game, when they are clearly doing better as a race than the others because of adaptability etc, the LAST thing they need is an "attack move friendly" hero unit.
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
LimeNade
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2125 Posts
December 23 2011 23:48 GMT
#22
On December 24 2011 08:47 Cyro wrote:
I dont mind hero units, but even the mothership requires a bit of skill to use effectively vs infestor/broodlord/army (not as high skill cap as id like) but having a hero unit JUST for terran when they already have so many more units with effective uses throughout the game, when they are clearly doing better as a race than the others because of adaptability etc, the LAST thing they need is an "attack move friendly" hero unit.


yea and now u know why i have nightmares at night playing zerg LOL but seriously we need to some how generate enough buzz to put an end to these shinnaningans by blizzard
JD, need I say more? :D
happyness
Profile Joined June 2010
United States2400 Posts
December 23 2011 23:48 GMT
#23
It doesn't matter what the community thinks. We are all going to buy the game with or without them. Blizzard includes the hero units for causal players who will tell all their friends how there is this super awesome big mother fucking unit and that their friends should buy the game.
TheLOLas
Profile Joined May 2011
United States646 Posts
December 23 2011 23:49 GMT
#24
I think it is really weird when only one race has access to a "hero" type unit. I could understand if every race had one, but it doesn't make any sense. IMO i think it does work with the Protoss lore though. The Protoss have very advanced technology so this only makes more sense when they have a super advanced unit.
MHT
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden1026 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-23 23:57:15
December 23 2011 23:49 GMT
#25
Don't really care as long as they can balance them right. Think it can be pretty entertaining to watch a mothership enter the battle just in time and turn the tide of the battle, much like zerg suddenly pops 10 broodlords while they're being pushed and make a comeback. These things can make for really epic games and can't really be achieved in the same way by simple units trickling in.
HardCorey
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States709 Posts
December 23 2011 23:49 GMT
#26
I dont think anyone would actually consider the Mothership overpowered. It is a pretty reasonable strength for cost to obtain. I dont think the new Thor will be any different. It is odd they are removing (as last i heard) the mothership in HotS. Zerg is the only one who really shouldnt have a capital/hero unit like this since they are stylistically a swarm.
Don't Worry, Be Happy.
Minus151
Profile Joined September 2011
United States16 Posts
December 23 2011 23:51 GMT
#27
I'm sorry, this post is terrible. It's basically just a topic to whine about Mothership vortex. Something tells me that if Zerg were to be the race to get a hero unit in HOTS, you wouldn't mind so much.

Concerning HOTS Thor, there's absolutely no basis to call it broken yet. The game hasn't even been released, its stats, abilities, and even existence are up in the air.
Noocta
Profile Joined June 2010
France12578 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-23 23:53:01
December 23 2011 23:51 GMT
#28
On December 24 2011 08:47 zhurai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2011 08:45 Noocta wrote:
Because Dustin like the idea.
He come from C&C, remember ?

if that's the case all the races should have some hero unit, not just one race.


In case you didn't know, the Zerg queen during Alpha was only one queen ( or one per hatch, don't remember ) and could mutate at each state of the hatch itself ( queen at hatch tech, super queen at lair, ultra queen at hive.. you get the idea )
She got a lot of stupidly powerfull abilities, could kill a whole drop of marine by herself ( videos showed her 2 shooting marines ), teleport everywhere on the map where there was creep.

Thor were this mega unit ( like way bigger than today ) that could only be build by scv outside of a factory because they were so big, with the stupid aoe strike canon.

They tried to put something like that for each race. :<
" I'm not gonna fight you. I'm gonna kick your ass ! "
Fealthas
Profile Joined May 2011
607 Posts
December 23 2011 23:52 GMT
#29
Hero units are the dumbest freaking idea ever. They are completely un-balanceable and have no purpose. I hope blizzard removes them in HOTS.
Zorgaz
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden2951 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-23 23:54:09
December 23 2011 23:52 GMT
#30
I agree that hero units don't belong in Starcraft. I really dislike the restrictions about ''only able to build one''.

Blizzard is defending hero unit, saying that casual players like it, but the casual players that want hero units can play custom games! It shouldn't be put as a multiplayer unit =/.

I'm all for removing the mothership (From multiplayer, it can still be used in custom maps and such) but i don't get why they want a hero thor!? I understand that the Warhound takes the Thors role, but their solution just seems dumb. I really don't get the logic, remove one hero unit and let another race have it. Why not just skip the hero units?!

If they really want to keep the Thor they should give it a new role.

One idea would be to make the Thor a real lategame unit. Make it's Air attack do extra damage against armoured instead of light or remove the air attack. Change the ''numbers'' on the thor and it's cost and make it require a Fleet beacon and a Armory, maybe give it another ability or tweak it? Do something else then make it a ''hero unit'' please =/.

Furthermore, I think the Collosi should be removed! (Zorgaz -Terran/AbrA-Random/Zorg-Dota2) Guineapigs <3
blubbdavid
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Switzerland2412 Posts
December 23 2011 23:58 GMT
#31
Oh, hey look, it's the Odin.
What do you desire? Money? Glory? Power? Revenge? Or something that surpasses all other? Whatever you desire - that is here. Tower of God ¦¦Nutella, drink of the Gods
Ashes
Profile Joined January 2011
United States362 Posts
December 23 2011 23:59 GMT
#32
Seems like a cry from a bitter zerg because he didnt get his hero unit in HOTS.. anyways.. I think as of now SC2 is balanced and I kinda like the mom ship role now... Given that toss anti air is kinda really bad and toss stargate is really the weakest amongst all the races. Mothership seems a viable option for tackling against massing of broodlords. Coz blink stalkers and void rays just dnt do the trick..due to fungal growths.
mordk
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Chile8385 Posts
December 24 2011 00:00 GMT
#33
IMO the mistake goes beyond bringing hero units to SC (which is wrong as well), but in bringing a C&C designer to Starcraft. He has this attitude of "Let's go for this gimmick, yeah this ability would be so cool" "Let's do this really unique thing with this unit, like pulling stuff!" "Hey let's make this HUGE, and AWESOME hero unit that is really really powerful, it would be so cool!" instead of keeping to the simplicity that makes starcraft great. This obsession of his with things being "cool" is not good for starcraft, and I really question Blizzard's decision in bringing him in, I wish they just fired him.
Khaine
Profile Joined November 2011
Sweden75 Posts
December 24 2011 00:01 GMT
#34
Yeah i agree, hero units doesnt really fit in to Starcraft. In a game with brutal warfare and nightmarish aliens from space, hero units doesn't fit it.


Not gameplay wise either
Qpad mk-80 / Logitech G9
phyren
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States1067 Posts
December 24 2011 00:01 GMT
#35
GIVE ME BACK MY ARBITERS. That said, to people arguing that this can be balanced and perhaps has been, I would argue that that isn't the point. The hero unit is antithetical to sc. It almost forces death ball style engagements since having the hero unit by itself represents either a massive risk or a waste of tons of resources. In addition, it encourages a lot of gimmicky play. Remember when 1 base mothership was actually a viable strat? How about 1 base thor rush with pulling all scvs (I know thor technically isn't a hero yet, but still the idea was the same)?

You want to have a cost/benefit analysis with your units. Some times it is worth sacrificing a few units or even an entire army in order to accomplish some strategic goal (i.e. suicidal ling run bys to force an army to pull back, zealot warp ins to force a hatch cancel, target firings of mining bases) In bw this was true at just about every level of tech. Arbiters were frequently used for suicidal recalls that would then lose you the entire recalled force bu by you time and other objectives. ZvT was almost entirely about accepting the guaranteed loss of expensive tech units to irradiate but using them correctly before their death for the zerg and riskily venturing forth with sci vessels because you can accept some losses if you kill enough for terran.

Although I use BW examples, this is a very fundamental principle that exists in SC2 as well. Hero units stress this principle almost to the breaking point. It is almost never worth suiciding a hero unit due to the limit of 1 as well as the death ball style they enforce that imply suiciding an entire hi tech army with the hero.
Inex
Profile Joined October 2010
Bulgaria443 Posts
December 24 2011 00:01 GMT
#36
The reason Blizz will remove the mothership is because it is useless and too expensive. The same will happen with the thor, I have no idea why they insist on doing this.
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20284 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-24 00:06:16
December 24 2011 00:02 GMT
#37
On December 24 2011 08:49 TheLOLas wrote:
I think it is really weird when only one race has access to a "hero" type unit. I could understand if every race had one, but it doesn't make any sense. IMO i think it does work with the Protoss lore though. The Protoss have very advanced technology so this only makes more sense when they have a super advanced unit.


That dies to 7-8 unstimmed marines


Which actuly reminds me of a good point - A mothership is useless unless you use it in a specific way, or atleast control it for the cloaking field, whereas thors are famously kinda good at everything when massed. Zerg whined for a long time about NP nerf to 7 range because they couldnt use it effectively to counter thors any more, and if anyone has played against a ton of thors in a turtle fest or a team game they will tell you it is not easy to beat them with any kind of army (aside from reactionary carriers, which are funnily enough being removed) so a SUPER THOR will probably also be kinda good at everything and powerful, unlike the mothership which is being removed because it is underused
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
PhiliBiRD
Profile Joined November 2009
United States2643 Posts
December 24 2011 00:02 GMT
#38
its completely retarded for 1 race to h ave it. that makes no sense. now, if all 3 had it, i suppose it COULD work. it would just then be up to us to decide if the game play was better or worse because of it. that's somethign we cannot possibly tell without experiencing.
ChuCky.Ca
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada2497 Posts
December 24 2011 00:03 GMT
#39
well you play Zerg thats for sure it's nearly impossible to deal with a late game zerg infestor brood lord without a mothership
Most Skilled Current esport Games Scbw>Sc2>Cs1.6>Dota2>Hon>Loopin Louie The Drinking Game>LoL
epoc
Profile Joined December 2010
Finland1190 Posts
December 24 2011 00:04 GMT
#40
Gotta say I'm pretty surprised that pretty much everyone agrees on that there shouldn't be hero units in sc2. I agree too though
TyrantPotato
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Australia1541 Posts
December 24 2011 00:06 GMT
#41
On December 24 2011 09:03 ChuCky.Ca wrote:
well you play Zerg thats for sure it's nearly impossible to deal with a late game zerg infestor brood lord without a mothership


because blizzard balanced shit around the fact that the mothership existed.

now if the mothership never existed imagine how they might have changed some units?

the game would be FAR better off without these bullshit OMG HERO TO THE RESCUE PEW PEW SHOOOOM TORNADO PUNCH units
Forever ZeNEX.
Divine-Sneaker
Profile Joined August 2010
Denmark1225 Posts
December 24 2011 00:10 GMT
#42
OP sounds mad. Although I don't agree with the hero units being in the game either, the way the OP is put is just terrible. Extremely biased and doesn't present the case from more than one angle, which it seems obvious he's been on the receiving end off.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
December 24 2011 00:10 GMT
#43
Why are there only dumbass vote options?
I would like to vote for all of the following:
-) as long as they work well and are interesting i dont care
-) i dont care about the OPs balance whining and his own little attitudes of "how rts should work"
-) looking forward to the ubermegaultraomegalisk in LotV
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
December 24 2011 00:14 GMT
#44
Motherships are actually incredibly awesome.
I think that people need to give them a chance. I think recall could be used defensively/offensively way more.
And, um, 8 people had their armies vortexed, punched a wall, and broke their hand, then voted on TL? o_O
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
LimeNade
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2125 Posts
December 24 2011 00:15 GMT
#45
On December 24 2011 09:10 Big J wrote:
Why are there only dumbass vote options?
I would like to vote for all of the following:
-) as long as they work well and are interesting i dont care
-) i dont care about the OPs balance whining and his own little attitudes of "how rts should work"
-) looking forward to the ubermegaultraomegalisk in LotV


im sorry next time ill make sure to PM u ahead of time to see what polls u would like to have? sorry if they arent up to ur intellectual standards but clearly u r dumb enough to think its only my own "little attitude of how rts should work" when nearly 99% of the people voting so far are have down right agreed with me so maybe its u who should check ur attitude and maybe not try to belittle peoples postings by using words such as "dumbass vote options". No one likes an ignorant disrespectful moron on a forum so if u dont got anything nice to say dont post it
JD, need I say more? :D
DrAbuse
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany209 Posts
December 24 2011 00:16 GMT
#46
You do realize that HotS didnt come out yet? You have no idea whether the Thor is going to be broken or not.
eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/186292/1/DrAbuse/
suejak
Profile Joined March 2010
Japan545 Posts
December 24 2011 00:17 GMT
#47
I disagree. I think this type of unit is fine.

Anyway, it's always hilarious when people rip into Blizzard as a terrible company or a failure, when all their games are widely acclaimed and absurdly successful :D

SC2 is one of the best competitive RTS games in years, and certainly the most successful.

P.S. Arbiters were once considered imba.
Are you human?
cvt
Profile Joined November 2011
United States192 Posts
December 24 2011 00:18 GMT
#48
Blizzard is clueless about competitive rts. They've proven it over and over. We should just accept it and move on imo.
Sajaki
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada1135 Posts
December 24 2011 00:19 GMT
#49
mega thor is the stupidest idea ever. If all races had a mega unit... its ok but not great. But one racing having it is a joke.
Inno pls...
Attican
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark531 Posts
December 24 2011 00:19 GMT
#50
I agree it's a bit silly to have hero units in Starcraft, but I have a feeling this isn't going to be the punch in the face that'll make Blizzard fix the problems SC has.

Also a plain "no" option in the poll would be useful.
iCanada
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada10660 Posts
December 24 2011 00:21 GMT
#51
On December 24 2011 09:14 TehTemplar wrote:
Motherships are actually incredibly awesome.
I think that people need to give them a chance. I think recall could be used defensively/offensively way more.
And, um, 8 people had their armies vortexed, punched a wall, and broke their hand, then voted on TL? o_O


I have the distinct feeling you've never had your army vortex'ed before.

I actually find Vortex more furstrating than Fungal Growth. Although, that might be because I can use Fungal myself...
architecture
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States643 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-24 00:24:17
December 24 2011 00:23 GMT
#52
Does Blizzard really intend for these units to appeal to casual players?

Do they understand that casual players don't play 1v1, and 1v1 will NEVER appeal to casual players?

Why not pick the battles you can win? They've built all this monetization around appealing to casual players - UMS web shop, tournament tickets, there's plenty of stuff to attract and be sticky to casual players, why not leave competitive 1v1 the way it is.
tpfkan
suejak
Profile Joined March 2010
Japan545 Posts
December 24 2011 00:25 GMT
#53
I can think of and have heard of many, many solutions to the vortex problem, including shooting infested terrans into the vortex and putting banelings into the vortex...

This is aside from the obvious solution of spreading out your brood lords (etc)
Are you human?
3DGlaDOS
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany607 Posts
December 24 2011 00:25 GMT
#54
I have no problem with "hero units". But I want a really cool Zerg hero unit :D
Hello Sir, do you have a minute for atheism?
Sein
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1811 Posts
December 24 2011 00:26 GMT
#55
Talk to Browder. He's the culprit. In fact, I think he said that he actually wanted more hero-like units in WoL, but the rest of the design team shot him down.
SafeAsCheese
Profile Joined June 2011
United States4924 Posts
December 24 2011 00:26 GMT
#56
Thor a hero? xD

It die to like 12 zerglings
Intricatekill
Profile Joined June 2011
United States17 Posts
December 24 2011 00:28 GMT
#57
WC3 wants a word with you.
Sometimes you have to touch the stove even if you know you'll get burned.
LimeNade
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2125 Posts
December 24 2011 00:29 GMT
#58
On December 24 2011 09:26 SafeAsCheese wrote:
Thor a hero? xD

It die to like 12 zerglings


not if u have 40 scvs around it repairing lol ^^
JD, need I say more? :D
OminouS
Profile Joined February 2010
Sweden1343 Posts
December 24 2011 00:29 GMT
#59
Warcraft 3 anyone? Heroes is a no-no in SC2, but I wouldn't call the MS a hero. Just a technical unit that are useful in certain situations.
On the 6th day JF made Reavers and on the 7th day JF put his opponent to rest
BritWrangler
Profile Joined October 2011
United Kingdom120 Posts
December 24 2011 00:29 GMT
#60
Why the hell does Blizzard add these units into the game without asking the people THAT PLAY THE FUCKING GAME what they think?
LimeNade
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2125 Posts
December 24 2011 00:29 GMT
#61
On December 24 2011 09:25 suejak wrote:
I can think of and have heard of many, many solutions to the vortex problem, including shooting infested terrans into the vortex and putting banelings into the vortex...

This is aside from the obvious solution of spreading out your brood lords (etc)


but its not the point of just the mothership its the ideology of hero units existing in the starcraft universe they do not belong
JD, need I say more? :D
Lobber
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada414 Posts
December 24 2011 00:30 GMT
#62
If you think SC2 hero unit is bad try the expansion for cnc3, now that's a way to add "hero" units to fuck up a game...
You are not your APM, you are not you ladder ranking.
jinorazi
Profile Joined October 2004
Korea (South)4948 Posts
December 24 2011 00:30 GMT
#63
how can one tolerate game designers when they say "this isn't sc1, play sc1 if you want to play sc1" while doing this to sc2.

i've always been against it and that hasn't changed even after using mothership so many times.
age: 84 | location: california | sex: 잘함
LimeNade
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2125 Posts
December 24 2011 00:34 GMT
#64
On December 24 2011 09:30 jinorazi wrote:
how can one tolerate game designers when they say "this isn't sc1, play sc1 if you want to play sc1" while doing this to sc2.

i've always been against it and that hasn't changed even after using mothership so many times.


yes agreed and i feel like we are being robbed of our ability to try to separate talent from game design. The ability of the mothership to so drastically change the game in one way or the other is insane. The hero unit takes little to no skill at all to use vs zerg as zerg has NO units that out range the casting radius of vortex. Meaning you cannot kite it. The only way to kill it is to run ur whole damn army into it and hope to god hes bad enough to not react in time for u to kill it.
JD, need I say more? :D
MidKnight
Profile Joined December 2008
Lithuania884 Posts
December 24 2011 00:36 GMT
#65
SC2 is just Bowder's attempt at creating another C&C. Radar (sentry) towers, every unit with a special ability, big random hero units, command centers upgrading to an immobile fortress, spies (changelings), jetpacks etc.
He's not a bad guy, but he just doesn't get what made BW so good.
Mobius_1
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United Kingdom2763 Posts
December 24 2011 00:36 GMT
#66
Mothership sucks. Literally.

But the new Thor concept just seems redundant. They were more or less supposed to replace Goliaths as the anti-air walkers in mech compositions but then they were more or less replaced by Warhounds which are more like Goliaths than Thors, but I guess DB wanted to use the Thor design and the sound files that badly?

And this is a hero unit only in limited quantity. WC3 heroes had abilities and skills to turn the tides of battle, this is just a huge thing with big guns.

But let's not get mad, it'll just about never be used if it requires a damn Fusion Core, at least in GSL, where I can only foresee this being used to BM and on Calm Before The Storm.
Starleague Forever. RIP KT Violet~
mordk
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Chile8385 Posts
December 24 2011 00:36 GMT
#67
On December 24 2011 09:30 Lobber wrote:
If you think SC2 hero unit is bad try the expansion for cnc3, now that's a way to add "hero" units to fuck up a game...

This is exactly what I'm talking about and why I believe the one to be blamed is clearly Browder. It's not that the mothership itself is THAT bad, it's the design philosophy behind it. The idea that there must be these cool, uber epic, complex units in the game to make it good is something that goes completely in the opposite direction to what we saw in the original SC.

I really wish he was gone, I wouldn't be so scared of the future if he weren't there.
Gurafity
Profile Joined December 2011
Luxembourg20 Posts
December 24 2011 00:37 GMT
#68
It reminds me the epic game Stephano vs Kiwikaki at IPL3. Like 20 Broodlords wiped with 2 vortex. Such a famous game :D
IntoTheBush
Profile Joined July 2010
United States552 Posts
December 24 2011 00:37 GMT
#69
Honestly hero units take away from the game in my opinion. There are already units in the game with spells, so why add something that is going to break a race, or cause more problems when it comes to balance.... This is something that they are doing whether or not the community likes it or not.
LimeNade
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2125 Posts
December 24 2011 00:39 GMT
#70
On December 24 2011 09:37 Gurafity wrote:
It reminds me the epic game Stephano vs Kiwikaki at IPL3. Like 20 Broodlords wiped with 2 vortex. Such a famous game :D


yes yes yes agreed! but that is such an insanely maybe like .00005% of when it comes down to the wire where the mothership actually works out. Most of the time its like 200 vs 200 fights and the protoss gets off a good vortex since broods cant outrun the mothership and its vortex and then its just a train chugging along at 200 mph towards ur front door
JD, need I say more? :D
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
December 24 2011 00:40 GMT
#71
On December 24 2011 09:15 BloodThirsty wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2011 09:10 Big J wrote:
Why are there only dumbass vote options?
I would like to vote for all of the following:
-) as long as they work well and are interesting i dont care
-) i dont care about the OPs balance whining and his own little attitudes of "how rts should work"
-) looking forward to the ubermegaultraomegalisk in LotV


im sorry next time ill make sure to PM u ahead of time to see what polls u would like to have? sorry if they arent up to ur intellectual standards but clearly u r dumb enough to think its only my own "little attitude of how rts should work" when nearly 99% of the people voting so far are have down right agreed with me so maybe its u who should check ur attitude and maybe not try to belittle peoples postings by using words such as "dumbass vote options". No one likes an ignorant disrespectful moron on a forum so if u dont got anything nice to say dont post it

So why are you posting as clearly you are the ignorant person here if you think that hero units are not part of rts:
C&C has them, WC3 has them and well sc2 now has them as well. ( not to mention all the lesser known rts games which have them)
Also you are the ignorant person if you just dont want hero units for the sake of them being hero units.
Also your OP was also far away from being a nice read. Just a lot of shitting over bliz.
1Eris1
Profile Joined September 2010
United States5797 Posts
December 24 2011 00:41 GMT
#72
Give each race one, make sure they are not OP, or do not give them at all. Nothing more needs to be said on it
Known Aliases: Tyragon, Valeric ~MSL Forever, SKT is truly the Superior KT!
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11340 Posts
December 24 2011 00:41 GMT
#73
Yeah these hero units have no place in a StarCraft game. I feel like they're trying to add these ridiculously powered abilities at the end game like SupCom 2's nuke wherever you want and fire units across the map in a giant cannon.

Arbiters actually had an interesting interplay with tanks and science vessels. Stasis didn't cover much area so you needed to choose carefully, and the back tanks were the best. But science vessels vs arbiters could counter each other depending on whether stasis or emp goes off first. Furthermore, with less unit clumping and less recall radius, the Protoss army is given tremendous mobility rather than needing to sit your one hero unit on top of your deathball. Recalls could hit the Terran all over the map rather than one place. One hero unit pushes SC2 into even more problems with unit composition rather than unit use. You get a hero unit and you sweep the field with it- if it doesn't sweep the field, it becomes too weak and is never used.
Moderator"In Trump We Trust," says the Golden Goat of Mars Lago. Have faith and believe! Trump moves in mysterious ways. Like the wind he blows where he pleases...
Captain Peabody
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3098 Posts
December 24 2011 00:42 GMT
#74
There is not, nor has there been, such a thing as a hero unit in SC2, if by that you're referring to something like the C&C hero units, or the Warcraft 3 heroes, or to the generally race- and game-defining mechanics possessed by other games. There is, however, one unit you can only build one of in SC2, but that's not really the same thing.

Putting a build-cap of one on a unit is just a balancing tool; it can be interesting, or not so interesting, balanced or not so balanced, depending on what the unit is and what it does. The mechanic itself has its advantages, and its disadvantages; but it's not really as unit-defining as people are making out. Such units can pretty much always be re-balanced to not have a build-cap, without that much of a change to the core role of the unit. But the idea that this mechanic can NEVER, EVER be used in Starcraft...why, exactly? I don't really get it.

Frankly, I think the community is way more obsessed with the phenomenon of "hero units" than Blizzard ever has been.
Dies Irae venit. youtube.com/SnobbinsFilms
suejak
Profile Joined March 2010
Japan545 Posts
December 24 2011 00:43 GMT
#75
On December 24 2011 09:36 MidKnight wrote:
SC2 is just Bowder's attempt at creating another C&C. Radar (sentry) towers, every unit with a special ability, big random hero units, command centers upgrading to an immobile fortress, spies (changelings), jetpacks etc.
He's not a bad guy, but he just doesn't get what made BW so good.

Yet somehow, he helped make this brilliant game that is easily the most successful competitive RTS game in the west ever.
Are you human?
Erasme
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Bahamas15899 Posts
December 24 2011 00:48 GMT
#76
On December 24 2011 08:44 iCanada wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2011 08:36 legaton wrote:
The mothership is an almost useless unit, it is used on late game PvZ on 10% of the games, and usually for no effect as the zerg player probably made corruptors against colossus


As a zerg player I disagree. Nothing like seeing ten archons and a mother ship wipeout 200/200 worth of Broods/Corruptors/Lings/Infestors/Ultras in five seconds.

And suddenly, the seven base zerg loses to the two base Toss with zero mining protoss who is down 80 supply with half of that supply being Probes.

-.-

Yes I'm bitter.

I feel you. Especially since the neural parasite nerf :p
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7lxwFEB6FI “‘Drain the swamp’? Stupid saying, means nothing, but you guys loved it so I kept saying it.”
Cocoba
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada352 Posts
December 24 2011 00:48 GMT
#77
Lol i think this post is probably from a game you just lost after being archon toileted
No the hero unit isn't the most balanced thing ever but the thing is that they suck so much that it hardly even matters. The mothership is finally starting to show some viability in PvZ by vortexing BLs. However, I can't say too much for the Thor as I haven't seen it in action at all.
:D
oxxo
Profile Joined February 2010
988 Posts
December 24 2011 00:49 GMT
#78
On December 24 2011 09:42 Captain Peabody wrote:
There is not, nor has there been, such a thing as a hero unit in SC2, if by that you're referring to something like the C&C hero units, or the Warcraft 3 heroes, or to the generally race- and game-defining mechanics possessed by other games. There is, however, one unit you can only build one of in SC2, but that's not really the same thing.

Putting a build-cap of one on a unit is just a balancing tool; it can be interesting, or not so interesting, balanced or not so balanced, depending on what the unit is and what it does. The mechanic itself has its advantages, and its disadvantages; but it's not really as unit-defining as people are making out. Such units can pretty much always be re-balanced to not have a build-cap, without that much of a change to the core role of the unit. But the idea that this mechanic can NEVER, EVER be used in Starcraft...why, exactly? I don't really get it.

Frankly, I think the community is way more obsessed with the phenomenon of "hero units" than Blizzard ever has been.


Mothership and HotS Thor are for all intents and purposes 'hero' units. And the way the game works means that the mechanic can NEVER, EVER be used. It will always be either overpowered or useless by its very nature. 'Hero' units have no place in SC.
Mondieu
Profile Joined November 2011
Romania803 Posts
December 24 2011 00:51 GMT
#79
Hero units are part of the show. I love them. Would like them to add even more !!
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
December 24 2011 00:54 GMT
#80
On December 24 2011 09:43 suejak wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2011 09:36 MidKnight wrote:
SC2 is just Bowder's attempt at creating another C&C. Radar (sentry) towers, every unit with a special ability, big random hero units, command centers upgrading to an immobile fortress, spies (changelings), jetpacks etc.
He's not a bad guy, but he just doesn't get what made BW so good.

Yet somehow, he helped make this brilliant game that is easily the most successful competitive RTS game in the west ever.

Pssst... must not defend blizzard and/or browder. only bash them. takes less thinking sounds more manly!
Also always remember everything that is good comes from broodwar. everything that is bad is just a copy of a non broodwar game. that is not to say that we dont like innovations. we just dont want them to be in the game!
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
December 24 2011 00:56 GMT
#81
If they want hero units, just give me zealots that look cooler the more kills they get. No buffs, they just look sweeter. I'll make my own hero unit. Hero probes!
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
JoeAWESOME
Profile Joined February 2011
Sweden1080 Posts
December 24 2011 00:57 GMT
#82
If they wanna have hero units then all races needs one!

But no, hero units does not fit well in a competetive economic oriented RTS game.
Simply Awesome! - Liquid'Ret - NSHoSeo_Seal - coLMVP_DRG - EG_Idra - Fnatic.NightEnd
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland24796 Posts
December 24 2011 01:00 GMT
#83
I don't mind the concept, but it clearly has demonstrably failed in the case of the mothership at least going by community feedback. Still will be a pity to lose that potent weapon vs lategame infestor/BL compositions

The new Thor seems worse, at least in the way I've heard it described it sounds really monotonous and boring. REALLY, boring.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
LimeNade
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2125 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-24 01:04:25
December 24 2011 01:00 GMT
#84
To everyone being ridiculous about this and not realizing I am not talking about the units specifically but the IDEOLOGY BEHIND HERO UNITS IN SC2. Or if you want give me a massive ultralisk that can walk over all units and when he attacks a certain radius of units are lifted up into the air that cant out run the massive super mega ultralisk sweeping attack and then give me banelings in the air (scourge) that blow up most your army that are lifted into the air. Its fair because all you have to do is hit "a" to perform the attack and then hit "a" to send your suicide scourge units into the air where all the units are since thats about the same amount of skill required to vortex and move archons into a vortex.

Edit: I prob should delete this because I am fearful that in the last expansion of sc2 this may actually happen if they read this thread sigh
JD, need I say more? :D
DocGore
Profile Joined May 2011
Germany15 Posts
December 24 2011 01:07 GMT
#85
I'm pretty sure by nowthat they realized that the concept of a hero unit doesn't fit very well into SC2.

The Thor change might be based on a completly different issue: The reasoning behind exchanging the Thor with a more mobile mech unit is absolutely fine, but they might be unable to remove the Thor completly because the owners of the WOL collectors edition wont be able to show off their shiny special Thor skin anymore, therefore they desperatly try to find a new use for the Thor model and come up with the latest nonsense

it is an absolutely stupid reason from a balancing standpoint, but i can absolutely imagine some management decisions that take this into account

iiGreetings
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada563 Posts
December 24 2011 01:11 GMT
#86
On December 24 2011 08:34 Ninja_Bread wrote:
What a flawed vote system "especially when only one race has access to it"

Why can't people who make polls just have 'yes' 'no' and then let people write why in their descriptions....

Less margin of error is it is more specific. That's why but i agree with you aswell to an extent
Adapt and React I MKP, PartinG, EffOrt ♥
MagicJohnson
Profile Joined December 2011
Australia2 Posts
December 24 2011 01:12 GMT
#87
You say you're not arguing about balance yet you spend half of your post QQing about how zerg sucks against mothership?
OzkanTheFlip
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States246 Posts
December 24 2011 01:15 GMT
#88
make a new poll with only 2 answers, yes or no
Make Moar Roaches
ChaosTerran
Profile Joined August 2011
Austria844 Posts
December 24 2011 01:18 GMT
#89
i hate hero units, they are so silly, sc2 doesnt need them at all.
Cyber_Cheese
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia3615 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-24 01:20:43
December 24 2011 01:20 GMT
#90
I think this is for forcefields, terran need a massive (ground) unit.

Or do they? /Drops
The moment you lose confidence in yourself, is the moment the world loses it's confidence in you.
writer22816
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States5775 Posts
December 24 2011 01:21 GMT
#91
Hahaha yeah the hero unit is the least of Blizzard's game design flaws.

On December 24 2011 08:42 NoobSkills wrote:
I claimed it was a "hero" day one. People said this isn't warcraft -_-

Either way if you think THIS is the reason they fail as a company now you're mistaken. It is THIS and everything else they do that fucking blows. They've sold out like many other companies. Too bad. Buy 3 games then finally receive the whole SC2 game. Balance for the moronic bronze leaguers who complain all day. Create the worst maps put those into the ladder which causes map pools for the tournaments to be shit as well except maybe the GSL. Now, they're making D3 and I bet once we reach the end game that will be shit as well.

8/4/12 never forget, never forgive.
Darksoldierr
Profile Joined May 2010
Hungary2012 Posts
December 24 2011 01:22 GMT
#92
You have a good point and i agree with you, but you are a whiny little kid thus nothing much will come out of this thread
What do humans know of our pain? We have sung songs of lament since before your ancestors crawled on their bellies from the sea.
LimeNade
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2125 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-24 01:23:08
December 24 2011 01:22 GMT
#93
sigh nvm i give up
JD, need I say more? :D
Baldeagle
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6 Posts
December 24 2011 01:25 GMT
#94
what's wrong with the mothership? It's good in late game PvZ, and protoss can't beat the broodlord/infestor deathball without it.
RacerX
Profile Joined December 2010
United States168 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-24 01:31:33
December 24 2011 01:25 GMT
#95
T_T I just want me goliath back, thor big nono.

I see adding hero units to SC incredibly hard to balance, and I don't see them actually having a place within the game. I would personally just like to see new units.
Thats the power of pine sol
OkStyX
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
Canada1199 Posts
December 24 2011 01:26 GMT
#96
On December 24 2011 08:36 ZAiNs wrote:
It seems like you just want to vent because you lost to a Mothership...


its true he is venting cause of that he lost to kiwiGotC yesterday on stream cause of the mothership and raged the whole time after he saw it lol
Team Overklocked Gaming! That man is the noblest creature may be inferred from the fact that no other creature has contested this claim. - G.C. Lichtenberg
Zeroxk
Profile Joined October 2010
Norway1244 Posts
December 24 2011 01:27 GMT
#97
Motherships are excellent for BM or manner motherships
Daniri
Profile Joined May 2007
387 Posts
December 24 2011 01:28 GMT
#98
Haven't even given five seconds thought to the new Thor as it's incredibly unlikely to survive alpha testing.
"you guys are silly lol thats why i hate you people" berserkboar
m3rciless
Profile Joined August 2009
United States1476 Posts
December 24 2011 01:29 GMT
#99
next thread down, everyone saying how much they will miss mothership antics except a few bitter zergs.
White-Ra fighting!
MidKnight
Profile Joined December 2008
Lithuania884 Posts
December 24 2011 01:32 GMT
#100
On December 24 2011 09:43 suejak wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2011 09:36 MidKnight wrote:
SC2 is just Bowder's attempt at creating another C&C. Radar (sentry) towers, every unit with a special ability, big random hero units, command centers upgrading to an immobile fortress, spies (changelings), jetpacks etc.
He's not a bad guy, but he just doesn't get what made BW so good.

Yet somehow, he helped make this brilliant game that is easily the most successful competitive RTS game in the west ever.


SC2's success is directly influenced by BW's success. They had to fuck up REALLY badly to fluke SC2. And it's Blizzard, so they can't really do that, at the very least it's gonna be solid. No one's arguing that it's the best RTS game on the market, it just.. Could be even better
Existential
Profile Joined December 2010
Australia2107 Posts
December 24 2011 01:33 GMT
#101
StarCraft is not the place for the hero unit and I'm glad that the Mothership will be gone, although.. I wouldn't have an idea of how to deal with broodlords after the expansion...
Jaedong <3 | BW - The first game I ever loved
Bobbias
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada1373 Posts
December 24 2011 01:36 GMT
#102
Guys, hero units are solely designed to be used by bronze level players. Blizzard knows full well they are not viable in high level gameplay, and have commented on it before. They make hero units just so the scrubs can pick up the game and say "holy shit, look at that big thing, I'm going to make that!"
KimJongChill
Profile Joined January 2011
United States6429 Posts
December 24 2011 01:41 GMT
#103
Zerg one better be kick-ass...
MMA: U realise MMA: Most of my army EgIdra: fuck off MMA: Killed my orbital MMA: LOL MMA: just saying MMA: u werent loss
ReketSomething
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States6012 Posts
December 24 2011 01:42 GMT
#104
hero thors hanging out of medivacs will be awesome!
Jaedong :3
Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-24 01:44:01
December 24 2011 01:43 GMT
#105
On December 24 2011 08:42 NoobSkills wrote:
I claimed it was a "hero" day one. People said this isn't warcraft -_-

Either way if you think THIS is the reason they fail as a company now you're mistaken. It is THIS and everything else they do that fucking blows. They've sold out like many other companies. Too bad. Buy 3 games then finally receive the whole SC2 game. Balance for the moronic bronze leaguers who complain all day. Create the worst maps put those into the ladder which causes map pools for the tournaments to be shit as well except maybe the GSL. Now, they're making D3 and I bet once we reach the end game that will be shit as well.


Yes, fail as a company. That's why Blizzard is one of the most successful and well-known video game developers of all time. You're just bitter about game features and changes you don't necessarily agree with.
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
canikizu
Profile Joined September 2010
4860 Posts
December 24 2011 01:43 GMT
#106
Well as a Terran, I'm looking forward to play the new Thor with SCV repair, should be fun.
Szubie
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom294 Posts
December 24 2011 01:51 GMT
#107
Thor is probably only a hero unit because Blizzard decided to replace the Thor with the warhound. But if they just removed the Thor completely, people who bought the collector's edition would not have their unique model. So Thor becomes a hero unit, and it's probably gonna be useless in competetive play.
IMMvp, Maru
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
December 24 2011 01:51 GMT
#108
On December 24 2011 10:43 canikizu wrote:
Well as a Terran, I'm looking forward to play the new Thor with SCV repair, should be fun.


Oh you... :D
Swiv
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany3674 Posts
December 24 2011 01:54 GMT
#109
Gotta love biased polls. gz dude.
[_] Terran [_] Zerg [_] Protoss [X] Random ------- Fantasy - hyvaa - sOs
Juddas
Profile Joined January 2011
768 Posts
December 24 2011 01:58 GMT
#110
Hey man, I think it worked pretty well in Age of Mythology: Titans. I like the way they did it. fun game aspect, but if they do do that, they should make it a more fun, better unit, that is completely unnecessary, and to raise the supply level. Imagine a 15 supply Massive hero unit, mixed in a 300/300 army, vs another army of the same caliber.

And another thing, the hero unit shoudn't be a spell casting support uber like the mothership, but it should be a tank with an aura.
KimJongChill
Profile Joined January 2011
United States6429 Posts
December 24 2011 02:00 GMT
#111
On December 24 2011 10:51 ZenithM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2011 10:43 canikizu wrote:
Well as a Terran, I'm looking forward to play the new Thor with SCV repair, should be fun.


Oh you... :D


jesus christ, i imagine that's gonna be a real brutal all-in when the game comes out haha.
MMA: U realise MMA: Most of my army EgIdra: fuck off MMA: Killed my orbital MMA: LOL MMA: just saying MMA: u werent loss
david0925
Profile Joined September 2010
212 Posts
December 24 2011 02:18 GMT
#112
While I agree that Starcraft doesn't need a hero unit, this poll probably has one of the most biased options I have seen in a really long time
Hossinaut
Profile Joined June 2011
United States453 Posts
December 24 2011 02:23 GMT
#113
hero units + SC2 = why?
its against the whole point of the game, having hero units.
KingPaddy
Profile Joined November 2010
1053 Posts
December 24 2011 02:30 GMT
#114
What exactly are you trying to say?
Mothership is imba? Lol wtf?! Try to win against broodlord+infester without it..
It can be build only one time, I want my broodlords or ultras only one at a time as well? Hmm.. okay.
I don't really understand why you want a one at the time unit as well, if you want it ( I have trouble, understanding your point). If the game is balanced, as it is or as it hopefully will be, when Terran gets the hero Thor, I'm fine with it.
Your rant (as I understand it) just sounds like "every race should be exactly the same!"
KiF1rE
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States964 Posts
December 24 2011 02:35 GMT
#115
On December 24 2011 11:30 KingPaddy wrote:
What exactly are you trying to say?
Mothership is imba? Lol wtf?! Try to win against broodlord+infester without it..
It can be build only one time, I want my broodlords or ultras only one at a time as well? Hmm.. okay.
I don't really understand why you want a one at the time unit as well, if you want it ( I have trouble, understanding your point). If the game is balanced, as it is or as it hopefully will be, when Terran gets the hero Thor, I'm fine with it.
Your rant (as I understand it) just sounds like "every race should be exactly the same!"


its more like his rant, that he doesnt want any super units, or every race to have 1 super unit, as he seems its silly that the mothership will be removed, then terran gets a superunit. and the issue is that he also makes a point that the mothership's vortex is awfully strong.

personally i would prefer no race to have a superunit, and if its a must that we have 1, why not all 3 races have theirs... I mean seriosly its not like the zerg doesnt already have a superunit, The leviathan, and terran is getting the SP thor with its SP abilities from WoL... Protoss already have the mothership, so why not have a party?
`dunedain
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
653 Posts
December 24 2011 02:41 GMT
#116
On December 24 2011 08:42 NoobSkills wrote:
I claimed it was a "hero" day one. People said this isn't warcraft -_-

Either way if you think THIS is the reason they fail as a company now you're mistaken. It is THIS and everything else they do that fucking blows. They've sold out like many other companies. Too bad. Buy 3 games then finally receive the whole SC2 game. Balance for the moronic bronze leaguers who complain all day. Create the worst maps put those into the ladder which causes map pools for the tournaments to be shit as well except maybe the GSL. Now, they're making D3 and I bet once we reach the end game that will be shit as well.


And yet here you are, still playing their games.
"In order to be created, a work of art must first make use of the dark forces of the soul." ~Albert Camus
BeeNu
Profile Joined June 2011
615 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-24 02:49:44
December 24 2011 02:44 GMT
#117
The very concept of a hero unit in SC pisses me off and makes me want to pee in Dustin Bowder's eyes.





On December 24 2011 11:30 KingPaddy wrote:
What exactly are you trying to say?
Mothership is imba? Lol wtf?! Try to win against broodlord+infester without it..
It can be build only one time, I want my broodlords or ultras only one at a time as well? Hmm.. okay.
I don't really understand why you want a one at the time unit as well, if you want it ( I have trouble, understanding your point). If the game is balanced, as it is or as it hopefully will be, when Terran gets the hero Thor, I'm fine with it.
Your rant (as I understand it) just sounds like "every race should be exactly the same!"


First of all Mothership *is* imba, sure Protoss has a difficult time dealing with Infestor/Broodlord combo but that's a balance issue that can't be resolved with simply introducing a unit like the Mothership which simply makes the battles incredibly one-sided. Second of all if Zerg had a hero unit it wouldn't be the Ultra or BL, it would be an entirely different unit, Protoss already has two Massive units and then the Mothership on top of it all just for kicks and giggles. No I don't think every race should be the same and the races aren't even close to being the same with or without hero units, I simply think the introduction of hero units is stupid and entirely uncharacteristic of Starcraft and it is entirely unwanted by the community at large.

User was warned for this post
LimeNade
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2125 Posts
December 24 2011 02:46 GMT
#118
On December 24 2011 11:35 KiF1rE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2011 11:30 KingPaddy wrote:
What exactly are you trying to say?
Mothership is imba? Lol wtf?! Try to win against broodlord+infester without it..
It can be build only one time, I want my broodlords or ultras only one at a time as well? Hmm.. okay.
I don't really understand why you want a one at the time unit as well, if you want it ( I have trouble, understanding your point). If the game is balanced, as it is or as it hopefully will be, when Terran gets the hero Thor, I'm fine with it.
Your rant (as I understand it) just sounds like "every race should be exactly the same!"


its more like his rant, that he doesnt want any super units, or every race to have 1 super unit, as he seems its silly that the mothership will be removed, then terran gets a superunit. and the issue is that he also makes a point that the mothership's vortex is awfully strong.

personally i would prefer no race to have a superunit, and if its a must that we have 1, why not all 3 races have theirs... I mean seriosly its not like the zerg doesnt already have a superunit, The leviathan, and terran is getting the SP thor with its SP abilities from WoL... Protoss already have the mothership, so why not have a party?


thank god someone actually understands me
JD, need I say more? :D
XenoX101
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia729 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-24 02:49:01
December 24 2011 02:47 GMT
#119
I love how this guy wasn't even warned, mods are probably enjoying Christmas or on vacation. Most obviously the OP's grammar is awful, but that aside, not only did he provide absolutely no argument whatsoever as to why hero units are intrinsically bad, but he spent the entire top half his post balance whining about vortex. It makes me really sad that a post like this flew past the radar, the only reason I can think of is that it looks sensible by having lots of text and a few pictures, it's only when you read the drivel that you realise there's absolutely nothing of substance there.
weikor
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Austria580 Posts
December 24 2011 02:48 GMT
#120
One could argue that the mothership is fine, and one of the only real non air ways of dealing with broodlords.

I could say broodlords, even without upgrades spawn broodlings, that not only soak insane amounts of damage, also dealing a lot.
But
wait
theres
more
The broodlord is also the only air unit profiting from upgrades of your core army. Upgrading zerglings also makes your broodlords stronger.
Broodlings / lords also dont require any micro, or a lot of skill to use. 4 broodlords make a 150 supply army twice as good.

Anyway, i still agree with you that there should be no hero units in the game or one for each race. I also think the mothership would have become well balanced in HOTS since the viper gets the pull thing.

KingPaddy
Profile Joined November 2010
1053 Posts
December 24 2011 02:56 GMT
#121
On December 24 2011 11:35 KiF1rE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2011 11:30 KingPaddy wrote:
What exactly are you trying to say?
Mothership is imba? Lol wtf?! Try to win against broodlord+infester without it..
It can be build only one time, I want my broodlords or ultras only one at a time as well? Hmm.. okay.
I don't really understand why you want a one at the time unit as well, if you want it ( I have trouble, understanding your point). If the game is balanced, as it is or as it hopefully will be, when Terran gets the hero Thor, I'm fine with it.
Your rant (as I understand it) just sounds like "every race should be exactly the same!"


its more like his rant, that he doesnt want any super units, or every race to have 1 super unit, as he seems its silly that the mothership will be removed, then terran gets a superunit. and the issue is that he also makes a point that the mothership's vortex is awfully strong.

personally i would prefer no race to have a superunit, and if its a must that we have 1, why not all 3 races have theirs... I mean seriosly its not like the zerg doesnt already have a superunit, The leviathan, and terran is getting the SP thor with its SP abilities from WoL... Protoss already have the mothership, so why not have a party?


But I can't understand the desire to have a hero unit, just for the sake of having it, if the game is balanced as it is. I, as a protoss, can say, that occasionally the mothership is a good unit, mostly it isn't, but building it isn't such a special ("heroic") feeling, that I feel the urge, to build it more then any other unit, which I feel is useful in taht given scenario.
I don't think it's THE hero, the superunit, which will change the game if I have it, and which is the goal of the protoss race, but as a normal unit, which is useful in a few scenarios, just like ultras or thors are useful in some scenarios. The only things different is, that you can just build one of it, but I don't think it's such a big deal, as long as the game is balanced. Just imagine there wouldn't be a mothership and you could only build one carrier, one BC and one ultra instead. Would it really change the game that much? I don't think so..
I'd be okay with it, if each race has one, or if none race has one, or if one or two races have one as long as the game is balanced, because the "hero units" (at least the mothership) isn't really special, it's just one spellcaster, who could be build more then once in BW.
Claims that nowadays it is imbalanced are kinda stupid, if it's too much to ask that zerg has to split their forces in lategame ZvP, try playing TvZ or PvT without splitting your units....
Skwid1g
Profile Joined April 2011
United States953 Posts
December 24 2011 03:03 GMT
#122
On December 24 2011 09:00 mordk wrote:
IMO the mistake goes beyond bringing hero units to SC (which is wrong as well), but in bringing a C&C designer to Starcraft. He has this attitude of "Let's go for this gimmick, yeah this ability would be so cool" "Let's do this really unique thing with this unit, like pulling stuff!" "Hey let's make this HUGE, and AWESOME hero unit that is really really powerful, it would be so cool!" instead of keeping to the simplicity that makes starcraft great. This obsession of his with things being "cool" is not good for starcraft, and I really question Blizzard's decision in bringing him in, I wish they just fired him.


People say this all the time and it hurts my head so much. BW's spells and units were no different, just much harder to use which made them appear to be different. The big difference is the non-unique units (goons vs. non-blink stalkers, BW zerglings vs. SC2 zerglings, BW mutas vs. SC2 mutas) that could be used 50x as effectively by a good player than someone just A-moving.
NaDa/Fantasy/Zero/Soulkey pls
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-24 03:17:59
December 24 2011 03:12 GMT
#123
On December 24 2011 11:35 KiF1rE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2011 11:30 KingPaddy wrote:
What exactly are you trying to say?
Mothership is imba? Lol wtf?! Try to win against broodlord+infester without it..
It can be build only one time, I want my broodlords or ultras only one at a time as well? Hmm.. okay.
I don't really understand why you want a one at the time unit as well, if you want it ( I have trouble, understanding your point). If the game is balanced, as it is or as it hopefully will be, when Terran gets the hero Thor, I'm fine with it.
Your rant (as I understand it) just sounds like "every race should be exactly the same!"


its more like his rant, that he doesnt want any super units, or every race to have 1 super unit, as he seems its silly that the mothership will be removed, then terran gets a superunit. and the issue is that he also makes a point that the mothership's vortex is awfully strong.

personally i would prefer no race to have a superunit, and if its a must that we have 1, why not all 3 races have theirs... I mean seriosly its not like the zerg doesnt already have a superunit, The leviathan, and terran is getting the SP thor with its SP abilities from WoL... Protoss already have the mothership, so why not have a party?

Well it is not like they remove rhe mothership fof no reason... mass recall seems to overlap with it and other gamplay/balancewise reasons only the balance team could give you might play a role.

For the hero thor: thors were kind of planned like that in the beginning and with their current design failing hardcore in their (and also in my) opinion they just try to reverse that.
Furthermore speculating about things in hots just doesnt make a lot of sense. only time/the beta can tell what will be in the game and what will be flushed down the archon toilet.

And about every race getting one: why? starcraft is a game that is completly dependend on the races being different in a lot of aspects. there are reasons why terrans dont have melee units and zerg having larvamechanism. giving each race a hero unit would work the complete other way.



Closing comment abot hero units: i dont see why it should be inappropriate for sc to limit units to 1. all other units are limited as well by supply,cost,buildtime,useability. but the extta limit allows for extra possibilities in unitdesign, as the unit is rather easily balancable (thats why the mothership turns out so well balanced), because it can be given a specific role without the unit needing a lot of downsides because it would be to good if being massed.

Goldfish
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
2230 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-24 03:17:50
December 24 2011 03:17 GMT
#124
This might have been posted before but I think the only reason Blizzard is keeping the Thor is because of Collector's Edition bonus from WoL. They probably don't want anyone to be mad from buying CE for CE Thor then having it gone on HotS (when likely no one plays WoL anymore which means no more showing off that CE Thor).

Now my solution to Blizzard is to make a new CE version of a unit (The Warhound?) and transfer it to that unit.

They might not keep the Thor in game forever - what if they remove it in LotV? I hope Blizzard figures this out but the easiest way to solve this issue is to transfer the CE to a new unit. Make a CE version of Warhound that CE WoL players will be able to have.

I don't have CE but I can see some players being mad if they no longer have their exclusive unit (I would be too considering the CE Thor does look crazy).

Another way to solve this is to let CE players chose one mercenary version of a unit (like instead of marines, they can pick the war pigs marines).
https://connect.microsoft.com/WindowsServerFeedback/feedback/details/741495/biggest-explorer-annoyance-automatic-sorting-windows-7-server-2008-r2-and-vista#details Allow Disable Auto Arrange in Windows 7+
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
December 24 2011 03:20 GMT
#125
On December 24 2011 12:17 Goldfish wrote:
This might have been posted before but I think the only reason Blizzard is keeping the Thor is because of Collector's Edition bonus from WoL. They probably don't want anyone to be mad from buying CE for CE Thor then having it gone on HotS (when likely no one plays WoL anymore which means no more showing off that CE Thor).

Now my solution to Blizzard is to make a new CE version of a unit (The Warhound?) and transfer it to that unit.

They might not keep the Thor in game forever - what if they remove it in LotV? I hope Blizzard figures this out but the easiest way to solve this issue is to transfer the CE to a new unit. Make a CE version of Warhound that CE WoL players will be able to have.

I don't have CE but I can see some players being mad if they no longer have their exclusive unit (I would be too considering the CE Thor does look crazy).

Another way to solve this is to let CE players chose one mercenary version of a unit (like instead of marines, they can pick the war pigs marines).

Honestly... this is bullshit. It is the WoL collectors edition for a reason. in WoL you will still have your thor and in HotS I doubt that the (redisigned) thor will have a different design for people who bought the WoL collectors edition.
Humanfails
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
224 Posts
December 24 2011 03:21 GMT
#126
On December 24 2011 08:45 Noocta wrote:
Because Dustin like the idea.
He come from C&C, remember ?


yeah, a lot of people dont remember or choose not to remember that. Nor do they remember that blizz team was fired and a new one was hired, so its not even the same people that made sc1. of course theres no way sc2 is at all the successor of sc1. completely different team and completely different figurehead guy.

I'm not saying DB is bad, Im saying he's SO bad that all of his intended reasons for puytting in shit units like the colossus, for example, are completely superfluous. Go look at his public interview, all the points he makes about units and what to do with them and why are worthless. The current metagame disproves everything he idealized in his interview.

remember that in C&C it devolved into tank wars. basically it came down to who had +1 extra tank and better micro. Where's the C&C pro scene, or a history of it being competitive? What, there isn't anything like that?

Think about how strong carriers and ultralisks and guardians and bcs were in brood war. That was due to the fact that lower tech was weaker in many aspects and that those units were the ultimate end. Now all these units have just as much drawback and crappiness as earlier tech units and mothership and thor were the ultimate end. But there isn't one for zerg.

And think about this. Inherently good changes for the game are being delayed for HoTS. You have to pay to have a game that works. Back to the Tank vs tank wars of C&C; TvT, ZvZ, PvP. tanks vs tanks, raoch vs roach, stalker vs stalker. Even in non mirror match ups, certain units are clearly what you want, and other units are clearly dead end tech. Noone uses hydralisk against terran.

The game isn't "balanced" no matter what people actually say. And hero units are one single defining factor that contributes to imbalance because you have to account for this singular entity upsetting everything when it shows up. I could go on about a mathematical proof that shows how a game can be unbalanced yet appear balanced via win rates, but he gist is that people never get more skill than is enough to beat the other person, so imbalance will be hidden by skill caps that are created by not having more skill than is necessary to win.
LXR
Profile Joined June 2011
357 Posts
December 24 2011 03:23 GMT
#127
I'm fine with it. I think hero units are cool, and they only provided more entertaining pro matches. I remember huk mothership rushing at mlg... and i remember kiwikaki using mass recalls to beat stephano in IPL... i don't really remember any games being ruined because of motherships. I can only imagine it being the same with the super thor.
XRaDiiX
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada1730 Posts
December 24 2011 03:23 GMT
#128
Everytime i face a Protoss getting Mothership it makes my blood boil.
Never GG MKP | IdrA
cameler
Profile Joined December 2011
Canada99 Posts
December 24 2011 03:24 GMT
#129
I cannot wait to see the justification of the sixty dollar tag on HOTS, as opposed to the expansion pricing.
I mean really, you're gonna use the same base game, add in some flashy units that no one will use or regard seriously above platinum league, and scrape up 15 single player missions for the masses.

Hero units have absolutely no place in a skill related game like Sc2. The concept is stupid and caters to the 10-15 year old crowd that loves the bright big things.

I think Blizz is really scared about losing the scrub crowd, you know, the 3 million people that bought sc2 and do not play it any more because they couldn't figure out how to macro. Therefore, their business decision is to "woo" the crowds with their retarded and unnecessary "hero" units.

Despite me playing sc2 to this day, and advancing to diamond league play, I will be keeping my eye on HOTS without pre ordering anything. They need to prove which side they're really on, the scrubs, or the people that genuinely look for new strategies, work on macro, prefer less casters and more micro control in large engagements.
Everyday I thank God I escaped from the Starcraft universe when I did. Saved so many hours of my life.
Oreo7
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States1647 Posts
December 24 2011 03:24 GMT
#130
ideology behind hero unit is wrong, agreed, however pvz lategame would be super imba sans mothership
Stork HerO and Protoss everywhere - redfive on bnet
Spicy_Curry
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States10573 Posts
December 24 2011 03:25 GMT
#131
without the vortex the zerg deathball: infestor broodlord roach is unapproachable head on as protoss.
High Risk Low Reward
OkStyX
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
Canada1199 Posts
December 24 2011 03:26 GMT
#132
On December 24 2011 12:23 XRaDiiX wrote:
Everytime i face a Protoss getting Mothership it makes my blood boil.


Does it make you BloodThirsty?

all jokes aside i don't really like the mothership but what ever
Team Overklocked Gaming! That man is the noblest creature may be inferred from the fact that no other creature has contested this claim. - G.C. Lichtenberg
LimeNade
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2125 Posts
December 24 2011 03:27 GMT
#133
On December 24 2011 12:25 Spicy_Curry wrote:
without the vortex the zerg deathball: infestor broodlord roach is unapproachable head on as protoss.


im really not denying that im really not, im just saying if we know that clearly the game has to be done like this for THIS CURRENT game why not just fix it in the expansion and stop with these horrid hero unit ideas. Make protoss have a unit where they can make 20 mini mother ships to counter this
JD, need I say more? :D
LimeNade
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2125 Posts
December 24 2011 03:28 GMT
#134
On December 24 2011 12:26 ShakAttaK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2011 12:23 XRaDiiX wrote:
Everytime i face a Protoss getting Mothership it makes my blood boil.


Does it make you BloodThirsty?

all jokes aside i don't really like the mothership but what ever


hah that legit make me laugh possibly the first time in this thread as it seems i am bad at conveying my thoughts and they are being horribly taken the wrong way. Which I can understand as sometimes its hard for people, specifically myself to convey my exact idea behind things like this.
JD, need I say more? :D
zJayy962
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
1363 Posts
December 24 2011 03:29 GMT
#135
There should be a "keep them in the campaign" option
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
December 24 2011 03:31 GMT
#136
On December 24 2011 12:21 Humanfails wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2011 08:45 Noocta wrote:
Because Dustin like the idea.
He come from C&C, remember ?


yeah, a lot of people dont remember or choose not to remember that. Nor do they remember that blizz team was fired and a new one was hired, so its not even the same people that made sc1. of course theres no way sc2 is at all the successor of sc1. completely different team and completely different figurehead guy.

I'm not saying DB is bad, Im saying he's SO bad that all of his intended reasons for puytting in shit units like the colossus, for example, are completely superfluous. Go look at his public interview, all the points he makes about units and what to do with them and why are worthless. The current metagame disproves everything he idealized in his interview.

remember that in C&C it devolved into tank wars. basically it came down to who had +1 extra tank and better micro. Where's the C&C pro scene, or a history of it being competitive? What, there isn't anything like that?

Think about how strong carriers and ultralisks and guardians and bcs were in brood war. That was due to the fact that lower tech was weaker in many aspects and that those units were the ultimate end. Now all these units have just as much drawback and crappiness as earlier tech units and mothership and thor were the ultimate end. But there isn't one for zerg.

And think about this. Inherently good changes for the game are being delayed for HoTS. You have to pay to have a game that works. Back to the Tank vs tank wars of C&C; TvT, ZvZ, PvP. tanks vs tanks, raoch vs roach, stalker vs stalker. Even in non mirror match ups, certain units are clearly what you want, and other units are clearly dead end tech. Noone uses hydralisk against terran.

The game isn't "balanced" no matter what people actually say. And hero units are one single defining factor that contributes to imbalance because you have to account for this singular entity upsetting everything when it shows up. I could go on about a mathematical proof that shows how a game can be unbalanced yet appear balanced via win rates, but he gist is that people never get more skill than is enough to beat the other person, so imbalance will be hidden by skill caps that are created by not having more skill than is necessary to win.

Tank vs tank in broodwar, muta vs muta in broodwar... bio is useless vs protoss in broodwar, carriers and bcs are useless vs zerg, dark archons are useless vs terran...
Just a bunch of crap in your post. Colossus is in the game because the reaver is broken vs bio.
Low tier units kind of sucked (and not even that is really true...) because you couldnt control them properly.
It's not even funny to argue against such a post as it is just wrong in everything it tells...
babysimba
Profile Joined November 2010
10466 Posts
December 24 2011 03:37 GMT
#137
Any hero is bad because they create another deathball syndrome, unless they can design one that is more cost efficient by itself than with its support units.
Goldfish
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
2230 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-24 03:49:58
December 24 2011 03:43 GMT
#138
On December 24 2011 12:20 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2011 12:17 Goldfish wrote:
This might have been posted before but I think the only reason Blizzard is keeping the Thor is because of Collector's Edition bonus from WoL. They probably don't want anyone to be mad from buying CE for CE Thor then having it gone on HotS (when likely no one plays WoL anymore which means no more showing off that CE Thor).

Now my solution to Blizzard is to make a new CE version of a unit (The Warhound?) and transfer it to that unit.

They might not keep the Thor in game forever - what if they remove it in LotV? I hope Blizzard figures this out but the easiest way to solve this issue is to transfer the CE to a new unit. Make a CE version of Warhound that CE WoL players will be able to have.

I don't have CE but I can see some players being mad if they no longer have their exclusive unit (I would be too considering the CE Thor does look crazy).

Another way to solve this is to let CE players chose one mercenary version of a unit (like instead of marines, they can pick the war pigs marines).

Honestly... this is bullshit. It is the WoL collectors edition for a reason. in WoL you will still have your thor and in HotS I doubt that the (redisigned) thor will have a different design for people who bought the WoL collectors edition.


How is it BS? Few things:

1. Why no units removed from Terran but from only Zerg and Protoss. Dustin Browder already stated he thought Terran had too much stuff.

2. If they wanted a hero unit, why not just keep the Mothership but remove/revamp Vortex? (Only issue with Vortex is the Archon Toilet still works.) They are already redesigning certain existing units in HotS (Hydralisk gets speed upgrade off creep, Banes can move underground, and of course the Thor is redesigned). Why not just revamp the Mothership a little if they wanted a hero unit?

3. You doubt that based on? In WoW you keep things like pets from every CE (and achievement too but as feats of strength). While yes, it's an MMO, it does show Blizzard doesn't want to make people mad. In SC2 it's assumed you'll keep achievements/portraits too (there is no reason to think not since it's integrated with battle.net rather than SC2 WoL alone). The flag that determines whether you get the CE Thor is based on players having that CE Feats of Strength Achievement.

4. Finally if they remove CE Thor for HotS, this will discourage people from buying the HotS CE version (which will likely because there has been a CE for every WoW expansion and for Diablo III too). How will they entice people to buy the CE version if they don't get the stuff carried over? If you take into account SC, D2, and WC3, the expansion will make the original deserted/obsolete (few people play WC3 RoC for example).

Also I don't confirm that as a fact (Blizzard keeping the Thor only for CE) but just my speculation.
https://connect.microsoft.com/WindowsServerFeedback/feedback/details/741495/biggest-explorer-annoyance-automatic-sorting-windows-7-server-2008-r2-and-vista#details Allow Disable Auto Arrange in Windows 7+
Mortal
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
2943 Posts
December 24 2011 03:45 GMT
#139
Mothership, Double-down Thor, BigMac Leviathan?
The universe created an audience for itself.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
December 24 2011 03:52 GMT
#140
On December 24 2011 12:43 Goldfish wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2011 12:20 Big J wrote:
On December 24 2011 12:17 Goldfish wrote:
This might have been posted before but I think the only reason Blizzard is keeping the Thor is because of Collector's Edition bonus from WoL. They probably don't want anyone to be mad from buying CE for CE Thor then having it gone on HotS (when likely no one plays WoL anymore which means no more showing off that CE Thor).

Now my solution to Blizzard is to make a new CE version of a unit (The Warhound?) and transfer it to that unit.

They might not keep the Thor in game forever - what if they remove it in LotV? I hope Blizzard figures this out but the easiest way to solve this issue is to transfer the CE to a new unit. Make a CE version of Warhound that CE WoL players will be able to have.

I don't have CE but I can see some players being mad if they no longer have their exclusive unit (I would be too considering the CE Thor does look crazy).

Another way to solve this is to let CE players chose one mercenary version of a unit (like instead of marines, they can pick the war pigs marines).

Honestly... this is bullshit. It is the WoL collectors edition for a reason. in WoL you will still have your thor and in HotS I doubt that the (redisigned) thor will have a different design for people who bought the WoL collectors edition.


How is it BS? Few things:

1. Why no units removed from Terran but from only Zerg and Protoss. Dustin Browder already stated he thought Terran had too much stuff.

2. If they wanted a hero unit, why not just keep the Mothership but remove/revamp Vortex? (Only issue with Vortex is the Archon Toilet still works.) They are already redesigning certain existing units in HotS (Hydralisk gets speed upgrade off creep, Banes can move underground, and of course the Thor is redesigned). Why not just revamp the Mothership a little if they wanted a hero unit?

3. You doubt that based on? In WoW you keep things like pets from every CE (and achievement too but as feats of strength). While yes, it's an MMO, it does show Blizzard doesn't want to make people mad. In SC2 it's assumed you'll keep achievements too. The flag that determines whether you get the CE Thor is based on players having that CE Feats of Strength Achievement.

4. Finally if they remove CE Thor for HotS, this will discourage people from buying the HotS CE version (which will likely because there has been a CE for every WoW expansion and for Diablo III too). How will they entice people to buy the CE version if they don't get the stuff carried over? If you take into account SC, D2, and WC3, the expansion will make the original deserted/obsolete (few people play WC3 RoC for example).

Also I don't confirm that as a fact (Blizzard keeping the Thor only for CE) but just my speculation.

I doubt it mostly because they would do something exactly like you described if they wanted to remove the thor and keep something for the WoL ce: just give them somthing else.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
December 24 2011 03:54 GMT
#141
Such a flawed poll. Inject your bias into the choices presented, and make all the answers you receive tainted by it. We have no affinity for blizzard's unique units in the game, so you are essentially preaching to the choir already. If you want real information gathered from a poll, note that some people don't agree with you. Don't prop up straw men (The only reason Blizzard made it 1-only is their conception of "super balance," balance concerns are why rational people would want it removed).

First, (and I'm playing Devil's Advocate here), maybe unique units are necessary to spice up RTS gameplay, or fill a void in an endgame tech path. You bring up that it's been nothing but trouble from first addition, yet they still don't even appear in 1/7 of tournament PvZ games, likely much less than that. They're not the core of an RTS game, so aren't available to all races. Second, their balance comes from having counter strategies relying on just killing the one unit, and involve risk in investing so many resources in the tech & the unit itself. So the good player make choose to take the risk and sink high amounts of resources in the technology and construction knowing if it doesn't pan out, he has lost much more beyond a single unit in a war.

I would leave you with a poll of my own to perhaps illustrate how flawed polls can be, but I'll just write it in text here, since the results follow your own in showing nothing useful. *Ahem* Now that I've demonstrated how terrible it is to believe unique units have a place in RTS games, let's see what you think!

What did you find most incendiary/biased about the author's presentation?
1. "blizzard's biggest flaw in game design"
2. "the skill cap to pull this off is well......... nothing?"
3. "we need a bigger uproar about this."
4. "no place in an RTS especially when only one race has access to it."

For the TL;DR same as,
Ninja_Bread wrote
What a flawed vote system "especially when only one race has access to it"
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
PanN
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States2828 Posts
December 24 2011 03:55 GMT
#142
One race gets a massive unit, two races don't.

Either give every race an equivalent, or take the stupid useless toys out of a manly game such as SC.
We have multiple brackets generated in advance. Relax . (Kennigit) I just simply do not understand how it can be the time to play can be 22nd at 9:30 pm PST / midnight the 23rd at the same time. (GGzerg)
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-24 03:57:56
December 24 2011 03:57 GMT
#143
I don't really see the problem with mega-units. I think it just adds some more to the game. I see no reason why each race needs one. All that's necessary is that the game is balanced and the races/units feel unique.

I think the mega-units should be specific to the races. I don't really think it fits zerg at all to have a super unit unless it like had a friendly aura or spawned units or something. The mothership fits protoss really well as a super-caster unit, which is exactly what protoss is all about. I personally like the mothership a lot and I have no idea why they're getting rid of it. It actually seems to add quite a bit to the game to be honest.

The Thor sounds rather uninteresting at the moment. I like Terran being the transformers race, so maybe if they did something more like that I would be more interested. But Barrage alone is just boring.

I think this topic is a little disingenuous. Is your problem with the mothership the fact that you can only build one? I'm a bit skeptical on that idea.
nathangonmad
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom316 Posts
December 24 2011 03:57 GMT
#144
I honestly believe the mother ship is a good unit. The hero Thor on the other hand I don't like so much.
Keep trying Leenock
Mithix
Profile Joined July 2010
United States28 Posts
December 24 2011 03:58 GMT
#145
Mothership, Thor, and Brutalisk should be the 3 units available to the 3 races. Just make it so!
Semper Fidelis!
deber459
Profile Joined December 2011
United States37 Posts
December 24 2011 04:01 GMT
#146
I think that hero units are incapable of being balanced because not every race will have them. I think Blizzard will have to reconsider about the Thor.
colonel66
Profile Joined August 2011
United States8 Posts
December 24 2011 04:03 GMT
#147
On December 24 2011 08:34 Ninja_Bread wrote:
What a flawed vote system "especially when only one race has access to it"

Why can't people who make polls just have 'yes' 'no' and then let people write why in their descriptions....

^^ ++

I know you're just b****in' dude, but make your polls less biased, seriously. It irks me every time I read these...
somethin on yo mind?
Goldfish
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
2230 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-24 04:06:11
December 24 2011 04:04 GMT
#148
On December 24 2011 12:52 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2011 12:43 Goldfish wrote:
On December 24 2011 12:20 Big J wrote:
On December 24 2011 12:17 Goldfish wrote:
This might have been posted before but I think the only reason Blizzard is keeping the Thor is because of Collector's Edition bonus from WoL. They probably don't want anyone to be mad from buying CE for CE Thor then having it gone on HotS (when likely no one plays WoL anymore which means no more showing off that CE Thor).

Now my solution to Blizzard is to make a new CE version of a unit (The Warhound?) and transfer it to that unit.

They might not keep the Thor in game forever - what if they remove it in LotV? I hope Blizzard figures this out but the easiest way to solve this issue is to transfer the CE to a new unit. Make a CE version of Warhound that CE WoL players will be able to have.

I don't have CE but I can see some players being mad if they no longer have their exclusive unit (I would be too considering the CE Thor does look crazy).

Another way to solve this is to let CE players chose one mercenary version of a unit (like instead of marines, they can pick the war pigs marines).

Honestly... this is bullshit. It is the WoL collectors edition for a reason. in WoL you will still have your thor and in HotS I doubt that the (redisigned) thor will have a different design for people who bought the WoL collectors edition.


How is it BS? Few things:

1. Why no units removed from Terran but from only Zerg and Protoss. Dustin Browder already stated he thought Terran had too much stuff.

2. If they wanted a hero unit, why not just keep the Mothership but remove/revamp Vortex? (Only issue with Vortex is the Archon Toilet still works.) They are already redesigning certain existing units in HotS (Hydralisk gets speed upgrade off creep, Banes can move underground, and of course the Thor is redesigned). Why not just revamp the Mothership a little if they wanted a hero unit?

3. You doubt that based on? In WoW you keep things like pets from every CE (and achievement too but as feats of strength). While yes, it's an MMO, it does show Blizzard doesn't want to make people mad. In SC2 it's assumed you'll keep achievements too. The flag that determines whether you get the CE Thor is based on players having that CE Feats of Strength Achievement.

4. Finally if they remove CE Thor for HotS, this will discourage people from buying the HotS CE version (which will likely because there has been a CE for every WoW expansion and for Diablo III too). How will they entice people to buy the CE version if they don't get the stuff carried over? If you take into account SC, D2, and WC3, the expansion will make the original deserted/obsolete (few people play WC3 RoC for example).

Also I don't confirm that as a fact (Blizzard keeping the Thor only for CE) but just my speculation.

I doubt it mostly because they would do something exactly like you described if they wanted to remove the thor and keep something for the WoL ce: just give them somthing else.


Good answer actually. Also I apologize for completely missing that >.>.

Ehh I just found it odd that it seemed Blizzard went out of their way to keep Thor when they earlier said Terran had too much stuff. They removed Carriers which weren't overpowered at all and Overseers. Both do not "completely" overlap with Tempest and Viper respectively.
https://connect.microsoft.com/WindowsServerFeedback/feedback/details/741495/biggest-explorer-annoyance-automatic-sorting-windows-7-server-2008-r2-and-vista#details Allow Disable Auto Arrange in Windows 7+
run.at.me
Profile Joined December 2011
Australia550 Posts
December 24 2011 04:05 GMT
#149
No counter to mass brood lord except for mothership.

Don't see the problem with a hero unit as long as its balanced
Selendis
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia509 Posts
December 24 2011 04:09 GMT
#150
I love the mothership but you have a point. Hero units seem to be bad design imho.

I want my arbiters back.
Probes are sooo OP
Nightshade_
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States549 Posts
December 24 2011 04:14 GMT
#151
I'll give you three guesses about which race this guy is...
Lil' Joey, Master of the A-Move Stalker Strike Force
d9mmdi
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Germany179 Posts
December 24 2011 04:17 GMT
#152
your argument is based on the brokenness of vortex so why not conclude fixing vortex (for example units keep there position, like vortex is an anti-recall to nowhere =D)?
in principle theres nothing wrong with only one race having hero unit imo, as it could be used to give unique playstyles to each race, sadly though dustin browder said they are not aiming for distinct themes just difference...
one big argument in favor of hero units is the spectating side, yes you can argue its not starcraftish but thats an entirely subjective argument...
You gotta step over dead bodies - Momma Plott
Silidons
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States2813 Posts
December 24 2011 04:17 GMT
#153
would be nice if blizzard actually listened to their players for once
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon Bonaparte
bgx
Profile Joined August 2010
Poland6595 Posts
December 24 2011 04:38 GMT
#154
i dont like the idea of half screen big units thats basically a ripoff of bw unit ;(
Stork[gm]
Serpico
Profile Joined May 2010
4285 Posts
December 24 2011 04:40 GMT
#155
On December 24 2011 13:05 run.at.me wrote:
No counter to mass brood lord except for mothership.

Don't see the problem with a hero unit as long as its balanced

Besides storms/blink stalkers and voids?
Wolf
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Korea (South)3290 Posts
December 24 2011 04:56 GMT
#156
I want the arbiter back.
Commentatorhttp://twitter.com/proxywolf
TL+ Member
Goldfish
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
2230 Posts
December 24 2011 05:01 GMT
#157
I say ditch the Tempest (though keep it in the editor for map makers) and bring in the Corsair.
https://connect.microsoft.com/WindowsServerFeedback/feedback/details/741495/biggest-explorer-annoyance-automatic-sorting-windows-7-server-2008-r2-and-vista#details Allow Disable Auto Arrange in Windows 7+
Lavit2099
Profile Joined November 2011
United States390 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-24 05:08:57
December 24 2011 05:03 GMT
#158
There's a difference between hero units (WC3) and mega units (mega-Thor/Mothership). They've said that (I think and hope it only stays with the single player) Kerrigan is going to be a hero unit (can't find the quote now, of course). As for mega units, here's my two cents.

A) Does it make sense to the race? The Mothership, yes, it does. I don't play Protoss but honestly I'm sad to see this go. It's a nicely creative unit that allows for some fun (from a viewer standpoint) tricks as well as having a spot in the whole thing that is Protoss. Limiting it to one makes sense also; it's a Mothership, not a mommyship. It's THE end-all construct, you only NEED one mothership. The mega-Thor (or double-down Thor) also makes sense, as a unit, but not how they're putting it in. There's nothing...big and epic about the Terran army. They mass produce units in factories. Having a single big massive "kill yo' ass" unit doesn't seem to fit with the theme. I think the Zerg should have one, truthfully, something along the idea of the Overmind that allows you to grief with creep or something.

B) Does it make sense in gameplay? To me, the mega-Thor does not while the Mothership does. The Mothership offers a unique unit to plan the game around (go watch Husky cast White-Ra's Mothership/Carrier rush, it's awesome as all getout), but the mega-Thor is just a glorified (and hella expensive, 600m if memory serves) siege tank (with the "bombard" ability sounding to be the exact same). Does Terran need a new "siege" unit? Imo, no; there's the siege tank plus the new Shredder unit (which will protect ramps and such JUST like a siege tank does, only it WON'T cause you to kill all your bio when it does damage, so it's as fire and forget as cannons/crawlers are). Zerg needed a siege breaker other than the broodlord, so the swarm host to me makes sense.

C) Fair and balanced? I lol at these arguments. Everything sounds so ungodly OP at the moment. Toss cannon rushing you with just a pylon and energy. Shredders that can rip light units to shreds in only a couple seconds. The viper's abilities as a support caster, when coupled with the infestor are zomgwtfbbq (either the Scorpion ability + Neural or fart cloud + fungal). Nothing is fair or balanced in SC2:HotS right now. That's why we have to wait for the beta, give feedback, and see what ol' Dusty will do.

Keep your panties from getting wadded, folks, most of what we have now is just primary thoughts and nothing concrete (pencil can be erased, yo). Either way, I'm looking forward to the chances, because change can be fun, and it'd be awesome to see creative strats using/busing awesome ideas over "solid macro play" every so often. Cheese games aren't fun to watch, but unless the hour long macro game is truly awesome (big fights, not a slow war of attrition) clashes, it can be just as boring/disappointing.
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
December 24 2011 05:06 GMT
#159
I think they are actually great as long as they are almost never used at a competitive level.

I'm completely serious. Having one unit which is rarely used is great for esports, because whenever it does show up it is a really big deal.

I used to dislike the mothership, but I realized it actually had a great amount of spectator value because of how rare of a sight it was. I still don't like the mothership itself, as I think it's poorly designed and has lame abilities, but I think the concept of a "hero unit" is actually good.

I'm really excited Blizzard is giving it another shot.
all's fair in love and melodies
Syrupjuice
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States173 Posts
December 24 2011 05:06 GMT
#160
I would prefer it if there weren't any hero units in the SC universe. The unit type just doesn't seem to fit within the franchise, and I do not believe the way the units have been acting (or can act to avoid imbalance) doesn't work with how Blizzard wants the game to feel. However, I don't actually know what they are shooting for :p

Anyway, in terms of the thread's presentation… a little more to be desired. your TL;DR was more concise and a better read than the rambling that started it off. I can also say with 95% confidence that you are a Zerg player, based on how you QQ'd about the Mothership. But, I do agree with the content of the thread.
briandawkins
Profile Joined October 2010
United States19 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-24 05:13:28
December 24 2011 05:06 GMT
#161
They are not at all like WC3 heroes. Anyone who thinks they fill the same or even a similar role does not understand WC3.

Also, the question mark in the subject is dumb.
power-overwhelming
Profile Joined December 2011
Canada306 Posts
December 24 2011 05:08 GMT
#162
I wonder if the OP would make this thread if Zerg had a hero unit.

Anyways Mothership is not even that viable. If it comes to the late game two players of even skill will always have better econ than protoss, let alone have hard counters for deathballs.
Bobster
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany3075 Posts
December 24 2011 05:12 GMT
#163
I'm really sad the mothership gets taken out of the game. Seeing Kiwikaki use it at the highest levels wis as a fucking joy.


Always fun to watch.
PanN
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States2828 Posts
December 24 2011 05:18 GMT
#164
On December 24 2011 14:08 power-overwhelming wrote:
I wonder if the OP would make this thread if Zerg had a hero unit.

Anyways Mothership is not even that viable. If it comes to the late game two players of even skill will always have better econ than protoss, let alone have hard counters for deathballs.


Except you're 100% wrong in saying that the mothership isn't viable. It's an AMAZING unit.
We have multiple brackets generated in advance. Relax . (Kennigit) I just simply do not understand how it can be the time to play can be 22nd at 9:30 pm PST / midnight the 23rd at the same time. (GGzerg)
dhe95
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States1213 Posts
December 24 2011 05:24 GMT
#165
I think that hero units should not exist because it's so easy to focus them down, rendering them useless and never built in a game (unless you're kiwikaki), and if blizzard wants them to be used in games, they will have to make them so overpowered that the risk of building this huge giant target is worth it.

But this has nothing to do with the fact that only one race has one.
castled
Profile Joined March 2011
United States322 Posts
December 24 2011 05:30 GMT
#166
Hero units only work when the game is really built around them, like in WC3. There is no place for them in Starcraft.
Daralii
Profile Joined March 2010
United States16991 Posts
December 24 2011 05:44 GMT
#167
I think it's mostly just Browder's C&C roots showing through.
Fear is freedom! Subjugation is liberation! Contradiction is truth!
FeyFey
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany10114 Posts
December 24 2011 06:25 GMT
#168
Mothership is by no means a hero unit. Its a simple support unit, that fills the weaknesses of the protoss army lategame. Just because you only can get one doesn't make it a hero unit, its just a balancing issue with the spells. The bw arbiter was pretty much the same, what i liked the most on them, sneak one arbiter in, recall an arbiter+ army recall more army and more arbiter, congrats we have warpgate research in bw. Just an example on how evil more then one arbiter was.

And if someone doesn't understand that a support unit that adds to the army will be one of the first targets and has to be protected (same goes for guardian shield sentries by the way), will never have success with it. While a Hero unit can defend itself and also fight off enemy masses. I don't know i have not seen a Mothership beat up an 100 supply terran army.

That being said it is sad that the mothership doesn't represent the last 8 supply of every toss lategame army, but if you see the ms float directly above the toss army directly after it was build, you really understand why those people don't build a mothership more often.

though i don't think its the reason why they remove it, they want to get toss away from the deathball, and the mothership was build to go against the weaknesses of the deathball so you could make the deathball better. Also fungal only decloaks for 4 seconds, which could be another reason.
I don't really understand why everyone dislikes the protoss deathball, it was obvious that protoss would be designed on having an unstoppable army, since thats how they worked in bw, but i think blizzard did a to good job at getting rid of their weaknesses. Warpgate just allows a toss to reinforce their deathball, while a good zerg in bw always made sure to cut of reinforcements.
It was something well liked in bw, so i guess it got blizzard a bit off-guard to see all the hate towards it. So atm they try to slowly change the protoss strength, which will most likely destroy the beauty of what zvp was in bw. Though since zerg can go into a deathball themself that is stronger then the protoss deathball without the mothership, it must have been really frustrating for the balance team. I bet they scream every lategame get a damn mothership to force the zerg to split their army more XD.
So in heart of the swarm they will replace the mothership with a fighting unit that will take care of what the mothership already does perfectly, but with something that does damage, so people can see what its supposed to do.

It's sad to see sc2 be destroyed by the people that want to change the game instead of finding an solution, because its faster that way. Atleast i have faith in Blizzard to still make a good game despite them having to change stuff, because most people just refuse it and thats only because it can't be 1a clicked.

Anyway if i ever see a hero unit in sc2 multiplayer, i will come back to this thread and talk about it. The single player had a few hero units, the viking, and our small cave adventure team hehe, and soon kerrigan. And of course i will "present it" to everyone and present it ... present it .......

And the op would have a bigger chance if the poll would look a bit more serious, but probably would look different.
Nizzy
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States839 Posts
December 24 2011 06:28 GMT
#169
On December 24 2011 14:30 castled wrote:
Hero units only work when the game is really built around them, like in WC3. There is no place for them in Starcraft.


Please don't bring WC3 talk in here.

WC3 failed. Heros were supposed to support armies. Auras giving 10%, 20%, 30% plus or neg abilities. In addition to nuke skills/stuns that helped your armies get in better positions both physical positions or damage/HP positions.

However instead the game got so abusive it was Armies supporting Stacked Heros + healing scrolls every game.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15509 Posts
December 24 2011 06:30 GMT
#170
Heroes ruined WC3 and made balance almost impossible. I'm glad we have as little "hero'ness" in SC2 as we do. It just doesn't work.
Kuja
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States1759 Posts
December 24 2011 06:46 GMT
#171
Its completely balanced, it makes it so toss has a way to deal with broodlord infester late game. Without it toss would just auto lose if the game went on long enough.
“Who's to say that my light is better than your darkness? Who's to say death is better than your darkness? Who am I to say?”
Erik.TheRed
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1655 Posts
December 24 2011 06:46 GMT
#172
BEWARE

double down thor is coming... and he's got a score to settle.

aka

THE RISE OF GOODY
"See you space cowboy"
DjRetro
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Chile309 Posts
December 24 2011 06:47 GMT
#173
I wouldn't consider the "massive thor" and "mothership" as heroes itself but rather as unique powerful unit... also, they haven't special passive skills/spells that do some significative difference to your troops/army to win battles like in WC3 was.

Massive units in sc2 are fine imho.

SpaceSynth-ItaloDisco-HiNRG http://www.radiostaddenhaag.com/
Geovu
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Estonia1344 Posts
December 24 2011 06:53 GMT
#174
On December 24 2011 15:46 Erik.TheRed wrote:
BEWARE

double down thor is coming... and he's got a score to settle.

aka

THE RISE OF GOODY

More like The Return of the 1 base SCV all in.
tWR
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Canada138 Posts
December 24 2011 06:57 GMT
#175
I think this reminds me of Warcraft 3 to much, how they all had hero units, I like the idea of it being army against army. Not an army led by this hero unit, I thought I was leading the units!

perhaps thats why I don't like the idea of a hero unit, and think that they could do well with buildings that had the functions of the hero unit, like how they supposed the nexus have recall for 75 energy, that reminded me of the shield battery from Brood War.
AlecPyron
Profile Joined May 2010
United States131 Posts
December 24 2011 06:59 GMT
#176
They are more alike to C&C ultimate units or Dawn of War unique units than War 3 heroes. Dunno why compare it to War 3 just because they are both from the same company. Now I don't care if they make a race having an ultimate unit a race feature, it's perfect feasible. Now the competence to balance it is what's matter in the end. It's may not worthy the trouble to try get this race feature to work in SC2.
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
December 24 2011 07:17 GMT
#177
As long as the game is balanced with the unit, then it's fine. But usually hero units make it fairly difficult to balance.

Also from a design perspective it really looks bad when only one race has access to a "hero" unit.
liftlift > tsm
peekn
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States1152 Posts
December 24 2011 07:28 GMT
#178
I never really liked the idea of a hero unit at all in the SC universe. I mean they are ok in warcraft but I don't really like that game anyways... I think that they just wanted to put them in there so when people are obsing they can be like "omg moooootheeerrrshiiiippppppp" when it spawns.
Cattlecruiser
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States340 Posts
December 24 2011 07:38 GMT
#179
It sounds like mostly QQing, especially the way you phrase the poll... Vortex is the only way for protoss to do any significant splash damage to late game broodlord ball. Kind of the reason they are taking the mothership out and putting in the tempest in HOTS. I also would like to see the singularity of the unit be removed and replaced with more numerous but less powerful units, but it's neat how Blizzard is trying new things.
ZiegFeld
Profile Joined April 2011
351 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-24 07:48:17
December 24 2011 07:47 GMT
#180
As badly written as OP's post is, he has a point.

Where the hell are the hero units for Terran and Zerg?

Or remove Mothership entirely and offer each race another mass-able high tier unit.

And yeah. Motherships are effing ridiculous. They aren't overpowered, but definitely offer Protoss a considerable edge in the late game.
Probe1
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States17920 Posts
December 24 2011 07:50 GMT
#181
I've read the entire thread. All I have to say is the mothership needs to be removed and the super thor needs to get shitcanned.
우정호 KT_VIOLET 1988 - 2012 While we are postponing, life speeds by
AlmightyJoker
Profile Joined August 2011
United States48 Posts
December 24 2011 08:02 GMT
#182
you guys act like buying 3 games is soooo bad. for brood war you bought 2 and you all would have gladly bought another one. this is the exact same thing, +1. and hero units do have places in RTS, although i do not think they should be in sc2 at all. SC2 is about careful calculations and knowing exactly whats going on, and heroes add that bit of unpredictability that just doesn't fit right.
Darkstar_X
Profile Joined May 2010
United States197 Posts
December 24 2011 08:03 GMT
#183
You have absolutely no argument here for while these "hero type" one limit units are bad. All you say is they are, and that they take no skill, and no justification for the necessity for multiple races to have them. If it's bad for one race, what makes it better to have one for all 3? This sounds a lot more like complaining than anything constructive.
Rumpus
Profile Joined August 2011
United States136 Posts
December 24 2011 08:09 GMT
#184
Haven't you guys heard? Blizzard's new marketing philosophy is quantity over quality. A very Activision style mentality.

If they do really want "Uber units" to be in this game and work as intended they have to stop half-assing the whole idea. How is this even considered a reasonable addition or change to the game when A) Absolutely no one finds them intriguing or "casual catering" and B) Only one race at a time is getting one!

By that logic you're trying to cater to a group of once non-Starcraft interested gamers BUT only a third of them (given all the races are played equally). This logic is a complete and utter failure and an incredibly huge debacle that they've put themselves into.

I don't really like to be critical of Blizzard because their track record in the long term is phenomenal. But this is just pathetic, it is clear they care little for this game or its continued success.
Grammin'
Acritter
Profile Joined August 2010
Syria7637 Posts
December 24 2011 08:09 GMT
#185
Hero units are bad game design. Because you can only have one of them, they narrow the focus of the game onto the point where the hero unit is. Multitasking becomes much less relevant, because the only part of the army that really matters is the part that has the hero. It's essentially another symptom of the deathball syndrome that SC2 has been experiencing: the most effective way to manage armies is to wad them up into big balls and then peel off little bits to harass.

That said, the Mothership is not imbalanced. Without it, Protoss would be completely unable to engage the Infestor Broodlord deathball. What's stupid is the game design that makes Zerg seriously struggle to compete with a standard Protoss deathball until they get Infestor Broodlord (or go Mutas), makes it impossible for Protoss to compete with the Infestor Broodlord deathball until they get the Mothership, and then be able to annihilate the entire expensive slow-building Zerg deathball in a heartbeat without losing anything. What's even worse is that now Zergs are figuring out ways to counter the Vortex, which of course will lead to ANOTHER flop over to Zerg killing the entire Protoss army in a heartbeat, and then presumably Protoss players will figure out how to counter the counter of the counter...

To put it simply, the entire situation is ridiculous. Battles shouldn't be decided by gimmicks, nor should they HAVE to be decided by gimmicks. Hero units are a reason that the entire gimmick situation exists in the first place.
dont let your memes be dreams - konydora, motivational speaker | not actually living in syria
Humanfails
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
224 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-24 09:14:01
December 24 2011 08:10 GMT
#186
On December 24 2011 12:31 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2011 12:21 Humanfails wrote:
On December 24 2011 08:45 Noocta wrote:
Because Dustin like the idea.
He come from C&C, remember ?


yeah, a lot of people dont remember or choose not to remember that. Nor do they remember that blizz team was fired and a new one was hired, so its not even the same people that made sc1. of course theres no way sc2 is at all the successor of sc1. completely different team and completely different figurehead guy.

I'm not saying DB is bad, Im saying he's SO bad that all of his intended reasons for puytting in shit units like the colossus, for example, are completely superfluous. Go look at his public interview, all the points he makes about units and what to do with them and why are worthless. The current metagame disproves everything he idealized in his interview.

remember that in C&C it devolved into tank wars. basically it came down to who had +1 extra tank and better micro. Where's the C&C pro scene, or a history of it being competitive? What, there isn't anything like that?

Think about how strong carriers and ultralisks and guardians and bcs were in brood war. That was due to the fact that lower tech was weaker in many aspects and that those units were the ultimate end. Now all these units have just as much drawback and crappiness as earlier tech units and mothership and thor were the ultimate end. But there isn't one for zerg.

And think about this. Inherently good changes for the game are being delayed for HoTS. You have to pay to have a game that works. Back to the Tank vs tank wars of C&C; TvT, ZvZ, PvP. tanks vs tanks, raoch vs roach, stalker vs stalker. Even in non mirror match ups, certain units are clearly what you want, and other units are clearly dead end tech. Noone uses hydralisk against terran.

The game isn't "balanced" no matter what people actually say. And hero units are one single defining factor that contributes to imbalance because you have to account for this singular entity upsetting everything when it shows up. I could go on about a mathematical proof that shows how a game can be unbalanced yet appear balanced via win rates, but he gist is that people never get more skill than is enough to beat the other person, so imbalance will be hidden by skill caps that are created by not having more skill than is necessary to win.

Tank vs tank in broodwar, muta vs muta in broodwar... bio is useless vs protoss in broodwar, carriers and bcs are useless vs zerg, dark archons are useless vs terran...
Just a bunch of crap in your post. Colossus is in the game because the reaver is broken vs bio.
Low tier units kind of sucked (and not even that is really true...) because you couldnt control them properly.
It's not even funny to argue against such a post as it is just wrong in everything it tells...



muta vs muta wasnt because of devourer. carriers and BCs were perfectly fine vs zerg, if zerg goes for dark swarm, you just move back. Don't go mass BC and expect that to work. They are giant ships that do damage and soak lots of damage, but they work better mixed with actual support units. dark archons maelstrom bio and keep it in place for storm, like how fungal + bane KINDA beats terran bio in this game. Reaver wasn't broken. 125 damage after upgrade and it still had weaknesses. Colossus is broken, not reaver was. Colossus Fires very fast and at 15 damage opposed to 125, kills so much more zerg units compared to reaver that its stupid.

You didn't play much brood war? cause I played 10 years of it.

On December 24 2011 12:43 Goldfish wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2011 12:20 Big J wrote:
On December 24 2011 12:17 Goldfish wrote:
This might have been posted before but I think the only reason Blizzard is keeping the Thor is because of Collector's Edition bonus from WoL. They probably don't want anyone to be mad from buying CE for CE Thor then having it gone on HotS (when likely no one plays WoL anymore which means no more showing off that CE Thor).

Now my solution to Blizzard is to make a new CE version of a unit (The Warhound?) and transfer it to that unit.

They might not keep the Thor in game forever - what if they remove it in LotV? I hope Blizzard figures this out but the easiest way to solve this issue is to transfer the CE to a new unit. Make a CE version of Warhound that CE WoL players will be able to have.

I don't have CE but I can see some players being mad if they no longer have their exclusive unit (I would be too considering the CE Thor does look crazy).

Another way to solve this is to let CE players chose one mercenary version of a unit (like instead of marines, they can pick the war pigs marines).

Honestly... this is bullshit. It is the WoL collectors edition for a reason. in WoL you will still have your thor and in HotS I doubt that the (redisigned) thor will have a different design for people who bought the WoL collectors edition.


How is it BS? Few things:

1. Why no units removed from Terran but from only Zerg and Protoss. Dustin Browder already stated he thought Terran had too much stuff.

2. If they wanted a hero unit, why not just keep the Mothership but remove/revamp Vortex? (Only issue with Vortex is the Archon Toilet still works.) They are already redesigning certain existing units in HotS (Hydralisk gets speed upgrade off creep, Banes can move underground, and of course the Thor is redesigned). Why not just revamp the Mothership a little if they wanted a hero unit?

3. You doubt that based on? In WoW you keep things like pets from every CE (and achievement too but as feats of strength). While yes, it's an MMO, it does show Blizzard doesn't want to make people mad. In SC2 it's assumed you'll keep achievements/portraits too (there is no reason to think not since it's integrated with battle.net rather than SC2 WoL alone). The flag that determines whether you get the CE Thor is based on players having that CE Feats of Strength Achievement.

4. Finally if they remove CE Thor for HotS, this will discourage people from buying the HotS CE version (which will likely because there has been a CE for every WoW expansion and for Diablo III too). How will they entice people to buy the CE version if they don't get the stuff carried over? If you take into account SC, D2, and WC3, the expansion will make the original deserted/obsolete (few people play WC3 RoC for example).

Also I don't confirm that as a fact (Blizzard keeping the Thor only for CE) but just my speculation.


Not only are they not removing terran units, they're adding more. Consider this; they cross bred the firebat and vulture for a unit that moves fast, costs no gas (unlike the firebat), and does lots of splash AoE vs light. This increases versatility, yes? droppable harass, fast harass and run, good AoE vs light in full attacks. Medivacs take the medic and dropship and wed it to create a drop harass that is unprecedented in power compared to brood war. Not only that but if you manage to kill the marines, most of the time the medivac (healer PLUS dropship) gets away to save terran cost, unlike dropping medics and marines, ro using medics durting an attack. Then terran got mule calldown as well.

And then dustin comes out and says "Yes, terran has too much versatility" when the huge problem of marines continued to be brought up, not just by casual players and Bnet forum warriors, but by pros as well, people who make money from playing. And his response was "Too much versatility as of now".

DB, you explicitly designed terran to be more versatile than it was in brood war. Do you think before you create a product? Or do you do things because "they're cool" and hope for the best?


On December 24 2011 17:09 Rumpus wrote:
Haven't you guys heard? Blizzard's new marketing philosophy is quantity over quality. A very Activision style mentality.

If they do really want "Uber units" to be in this game and work as intended they have to stop half-assing the whole idea. How is this even considered a reasonable addition or change to the game when A) Absolutely no one finds them intriguing or "casual catering" and B) Only one race at a time is getting one!

By that logic you're trying to cater to a group of once non-Starcraft interested gamers BUT only a third of them (given all the races are played equally). This logic is a complete and utter failure and an incredibly huge debacle that they've put themselves into.

I don't really like to be critical of Blizzard because their track record in the long term is phenomenal. But this is just pathetic, it is clear they care little for this game or its continued success.



They're not introducing any changes that are explicitly for HotS. Not just new units, but change to existing units. They're holding you from these changes until paying money for them. This is activision policy and marketing technique down to the letter. Blizzard was good, I still have original warcraft and warcraft 2 CDs that I can load up in DOSbox and have a blast. I don't even have the battle.net version of WC2, thats how old my WC2 is. I got SC, and it was great, a lot of thought was put into it to make it a unique and well rounded strategy game. A lot of people are saying that the expansion to starcraft was designed to fix flaws in the original game, and I take issue with that, mostly because the medic was overkill for terran bio, and zerg had no AoE vs bio other than plague. they introduced the medic, to buff terran, and they introduced the lurker to counter the fact that terran got buffed. This is clearly an Addition design and not a Fix design. Not even that, At the time of releasing it, Blizzard, as it originally was, did not even hint at an expansion for SC.

All of the sudden, Activision "acquires" blizzard, fires a lot of the original workers, puts DB in charge, is a company solely responsible for splitting the Modern warfare series into 3 separate games, even though the hacks worked on day 1 of MW3's release, proving they had doing nothing to the game up new maps and guns, and charged full price for it, and then releases SC2 while also stating they're releasing two additional "expansions" for the game for new units and gameplay.

They announce beforehand that it's a multi-part game that will cost you multi-part dollars. What is this really? Blizzard doesn't exist in the old sense anymore, it is a name brand now and a subsidiary of a large corporation. The interest of large money making corporations are; keep them paying, keep them coming back for more, draw out the seller/consumer relationship as long as possible, by any means necessary. Anyone who's researched or personally experience credit card debt should understand this business model.

On the subject of control, Imagine going into a store and everything is bolted down, because you, the customer who buys from them, are not trusted, but thieves regularly break in and steal these bolted down goods with ease and are never caught. Blizzard requires that tournaments taking place get license from Blizzard. Even places that have gotten licensed have had their internet shut down by blizzard via IP or site ban, due to Blizzard forcing customers to log on and play. This also ensures that you must pay 60 dollars, and if you want to play with other people at all, whether over the internet or (over the internet again) in a house lan or a small tournament, you have to have an account that bnet approves of, completely opposite of the Spawn Installs the original blizzard explicitly put on Sc1 to allow people to play with friends, etc. meanwhile, the thieves who crack and create illegal SC2 copies get away with it completely free. restrictions only degrade the experience of legitimate customers. Why do customers opt to allow their experience to be degraded to such a degree because of a very small percentage of copyright infringers?

I feel people shouldn't buy HoTS until all the long standing issues are addressed. That would give activision a choice, a complete loss, or going the extra mile to give customers what they want. they would get to look good and salvage their game.
Manex
Profile Joined August 2011
Australia156 Posts
December 24 2011 10:19 GMT
#187
Lol at the last option, 'and i punch at the wall, BANG bang'
My Homer is not a communist. He may be a liar, a pig, an idiot, a communist, but he is *not* a porn star!
HaXXspetten
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Sweden15718 Posts
December 24 2011 10:22 GMT
#188
I think that if they're going to use this "hero unit" idea, then it should be one for each race. Seems strange that only one race should have that priviledge. That being said, the Mothership at least had a good reason for being unique... but a HotS Thor? Really? Blizz crossed the line on this one imo...
Coolhwip
Profile Joined March 2011
Sweden1381 Posts
December 24 2011 10:39 GMT
#189
Altho I dont like hero units, protoss needs the Mothership to deal with lategame zerg. You cant just switch to mass VRs in endgame, protoss=/=zerg. The new airunits wtill probably not solve that problem either cause the switch is gonna be such a huge investment.
crack
SnipedSoul
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada2158 Posts
December 24 2011 10:45 GMT
#190
Hero units are dumb. They're super expensive so they have to be good, but it's easy to make them too good. The hero thor is probably going to be huge so imagine all the SCVs that can repair it. Somehow it has to be balanced around having tons of repairing, but does that mean it's going to be awful without mass repair?

Leave hero units for games like WC3 imo.
Drowsy
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States4876 Posts
December 24 2011 10:48 GMT
#191
I'm actually going with the minority and I'll say I don't mind it. I think they made the mothership work exceptionally well. The important thing though is to make it situational, yet even-handed; not something you blindly rush to because it's the most powerful and the opportunity cost isn't high. It's also bullshit when only one race has it.
Our Protoss, Who art in Aiur HongUn be Thy name; Thy stalker come, Thy will be blunk, on ladder as it is in Micro Tourny. Give us this win in our daily ladder, and forgive us our cheeses, As we forgive those who play zerg against us.
Vei
Profile Joined March 2010
United States2845 Posts
December 24 2011 10:54 GMT
#192
i'm excited for the zerg one in LotV =)
www.justin.tv/veisc2 ~ 720p + commentary
FreeZe sc2
Profile Joined July 2011
United Kingdom121 Posts
December 24 2011 11:03 GMT
#193
On December 24 2011 08:36 ZAiNs wrote:
It seems like you just want to vent because you lost to a Mothership...

I agree it does seem that
| BlinG | Grubby | AcE | Squirtle | MC | PartinG | NesTea | Lau | TT1 | MaNa | Elfi | InCa | KiWiKaKi | 13abyKnight | slivko I Fraer | FrCoolTea | <3 all these beasts! |
Incidious
Profile Joined July 2011
14 Posts
December 24 2011 11:42 GMT
#194
I think it might make more sense for Blizzard to give the "Hero" unit to the race on which the SC2 version is centered on, for example, WoL should have Terran Hero Unit, HotS has zerg hero unit, etc. I think this just because it would be cool, not because it would make any balanced sense. It is wayyy too late for that idea however.

While I do see where people are coming from, I find it essential to not compare races in the fashion of "these have hero units, and these don't". That might seem intuitive at first, but this comparison completely ignores ALL complex interactions and abilities that all races are given. This means that while Terran will have the only "Hero" unit in HotS (as far as we know), Protoss has the ability to recall back to their base (which was btw an ability of their current Hero unit), and zerg units in general have more complex functions. Other abilities are distributed as well.

Even if you don't care for balance, you must realize that if you remove the Hero unit, other complex mechanics given to other races must go as well, because balance DOES ultimately hinge these together.

Blizzard could have been a bit smarter about it since the beginning, but overall I don't think they did wrong as far as putting the mothership, or the future thor into the game.
firehand101
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Australia3152 Posts
December 24 2011 11:54 GMT
#195
The hero unit i think is really bad for the competitive scene, but i can kill my friends with it so i love it !
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shadymmj
Profile Joined June 2010
1906 Posts
December 24 2011 11:54 GMT
#196
Anyone who thinks the reaver is broken must not have used them. They're slow as hell, expensive as hell, have a firing delay and are rather fragile. Mastering shuttle reaver was a pain. High risk high reward with a correspondingly high level of skill, but pretty much crap without skill.
There is no such thing is "e-sports". There is Brood War, and then there is crap for nerds.
B.I.G.
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
3251 Posts
December 24 2011 12:07 GMT
#197
hmmmm i dont think we should give up on the concept of hero units yet... i see mothership being used more and more often... remember that almost the entire pro scene and for that matter even a very large part of the casual scene are ex sc and wc3 players, and arent used to a hero unit in this form. (i know wc3 has heroes but not like this). so maybe we just need to wait a bit longer before giving up on it so that people actually start experimenting more with implementing it into their strat.
Seohce
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom394 Posts
December 24 2011 12:10 GMT
#198
They didn't teach you how to collect unbiased statistics in school did they? Talk about loaded answers, why not just have "yes", "no", and "other (please state)"?
Lorch
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany3674 Posts
December 24 2011 12:14 GMT
#199
On December 24 2011 17:02 AlmightyJoker wrote:
you guys act like buying 3 games is soooo bad. for brood war you bought 2 and you all would have gladly bought another one. this is the exact same thing, +1. and hero units do have places in RTS, although i do not think they should be in sc2 at all. SC2 is about careful calculations and knowing exactly whats going on, and heroes add that bit of unpredictability that just doesn't fit right.


No it's not. Vanilla Starcraft 1 is pretty much what SC2 WoL + HOTS + Fucking void will be, they simply split the game in three parts to maximize profits.

I'm not even bitching about that, it' just how it is.

OT: Hero units are just stupid, I really don't care about any other RTS, but imo they have totally no place in starcraft. The only thing I'm happy about is that protoss is done with their hero unit, just kinda sucks that if they follow this pattern zerg will get theirs last and forever (if void is the final expansion).
trinxified
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada7774 Posts
December 24 2011 12:14 GMT
#200
Quite simply, the next hero unit will be the Leviathan for Zerg.
Probe1
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States17920 Posts
December 24 2011 12:15 GMT
#201
On December 24 2011 17:02 AlmightyJoker wrote:
you guys act like buying 3 games is soooo bad. for brood war you bought 2 and you all would have gladly bought another one. this is the exact same thing, +1. and hero units do have places in RTS, although i do not think they should be in sc2 at all. SC2 is about careful calculations and knowing exactly whats going on, and heroes add that bit of unpredictability that just doesn't fit right.

I purchased brood war when it came out. It was thirty dollars. Each of Starcraft 2s three parts are sixty dollars. Please don't be that guy that talks out of his ass.
우정호 KT_VIOLET 1988 - 2012 While we are postponing, life speeds by
deadmau
Profile Joined September 2010
960 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-24 12:27:04
December 24 2011 12:26 GMT
#202
Remove Mothership, and do not add the Hero HOTS Thor. Everyone's happy. Not that I think Mship is overpowered, or the forthcoming Thor will be OP, these types of units are just fucken silly in such a competitive RTS. ffs!
docvoc
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States5491 Posts
December 24 2011 12:28 GMT
#203
these voting optionsa seem very skewed. if you are going to have a vote for the community, please make the options less biased -________-
User was warned for too many mimes.
yanhamu
Profile Joined August 2011
France81 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-24 12:37:14
December 24 2011 12:35 GMT
#204
I wanted to vote 'no' until I saw 'they have no place in an RTS'

These voting options are so flawed.

The design of warcraft3 around its heroes was perfectly fine. And I'm talking about design, not balance. Still Blizzard managed to fix all matchups except one.

EDIT : to make it clear, yes i do want them to get rid of hero units for Stracraft2
MagmaRam
Profile Joined October 2010
United States395 Posts
December 24 2011 12:37 GMT
#205
On December 24 2011 21:15 Probe1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2011 17:02 AlmightyJoker wrote:
you guys act like buying 3 games is soooo bad. for brood war you bought 2 and you all would have gladly bought another one. this is the exact same thing, +1. and hero units do have places in RTS, although i do not think they should be in sc2 at all. SC2 is about careful calculations and knowing exactly whats going on, and heroes add that bit of unpredictability that just doesn't fit right.

I purchased brood war when it came out. It was thirty dollars. Each of Starcraft 2s three parts are sixty dollars. Please don't be that guy that talks out of his ass.

Blizzard has said multiple times that the expansions are priced as expansions (I'm guessing $30-$40).
YaShock
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Hungary119 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-24 13:31:24
December 24 2011 13:10 GMT
#206
On December 24 2011 21:35 yanhamu wrote:
I wanted to vote 'no' until I saw 'they have no place in an RTS'

These voting options are so flawed.

The design of warcraft3 around its heroes was perfectly fine. And I'm talking about design, not balance. Still Blizzard managed to fix all matchups except one.

EDIT : to make it clear, yes i do want them to get rid of hero units for Stracraft2


I don't want Hero units in StarCraft, they just don't fit here. But remember in WarCraft3 you could make 3 (or 4, don't remember) heroes, and all races could access heroes. Also WarCraft 3 was built around the heroes, they had the most attention in the game, you could buy them items, they had levels, skills etc. You did have to micro them well.
This idea of one SUPER DUPER unit that has THE MOST AMAZING SKILLZZZZZ, which requires an a-move which gives you free win, just build it and win, is pretty dumb. To make matters even worse, only one race has that type of hero unit, and only one unit. I don't really care if this Odin-Thor will be balanced or not, it just doesn't fit into StarCraft Universe, and the most people don't want see them here.
Headsortails
Profile Joined May 2011
Australia20 Posts
December 24 2011 13:24 GMT
#207
Artanis in BW said it best. "This is not Warcraft in space!"
FOR THE SWARM!
gold_
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada312 Posts
December 24 2011 13:30 GMT
#208
I like the hero type units, but every race should have one. Doesn't make sense for only 1 race to get a hero type unit when other races got none!
I am from Canada, eh!
bgx
Profile Joined August 2010
Poland6595 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-24 13:38:46
December 24 2011 13:38 GMT
#209
On December 24 2011 17:10 Humanfails wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

On December 24 2011 12:31 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2011 12:21 Humanfails wrote:
On December 24 2011 08:45 Noocta wrote:
Because Dustin like the idea.
He come from C&C, remember ?


yeah, a lot of people dont remember or choose not to remember that. Nor do they remember that blizz team was fired and a new one was hired, so its not even the same people that made sc1. of course theres no way sc2 is at all the successor of sc1. completely different team and completely different figurehead guy.

I'm not saying DB is bad, Im saying he's SO bad that all of his intended reasons for puytting in shit units like the colossus, for example, are completely superfluous. Go look at his public interview, all the points he makes about units and what to do with them and why are worthless. The current metagame disproves everything he idealized in his interview.

remember that in C&C it devolved into tank wars. basically it came down to who had +1 extra tank and better micro. Where's the C&C pro scene, or a history of it being competitive? What, there isn't anything like that?

Think about how strong carriers and ultralisks and guardians and bcs were in brood war. That was due to the fact that lower tech was weaker in many aspects and that those units were the ultimate end. Now all these units have just as much drawback and crappiness as earlier tech units and mothership and thor were the ultimate end. But there isn't one for zerg.

And think about this. Inherently good changes for the game are being delayed for HoTS. You have to pay to have a game that works. Back to the Tank vs tank wars of C&C; TvT, ZvZ, PvP. tanks vs tanks, raoch vs roach, stalker vs stalker. Even in non mirror match ups, certain units are clearly what you want, and other units are clearly dead end tech. Noone uses hydralisk against terran.

The game isn't "balanced" no matter what people actually say. And hero units are one single defining factor that contributes to imbalance because you have to account for this singular entity upsetting everything when it shows up. I could go on about a mathematical proof that shows how a game can be unbalanced yet appear balanced via win rates, but he gist is that people never get more skill than is enough to beat the other person, so imbalance will be hidden by skill caps that are created by not having more skill than is necessary to win.

Tank vs tank in broodwar, muta vs muta in broodwar... bio is useless vs protoss in broodwar, carriers and bcs are useless vs zerg, dark archons are useless vs terran...
Just a bunch of crap in your post. Colossus is in the game because the reaver is broken vs bio.
Low tier units kind of sucked (and not even that is really true...) because you couldnt control them properly.
It's not even funny to argue against such a post as it is just wrong in everything it tells...



muta vs muta wasnt because of devourer. carriers and BCs were perfectly fine vs zerg, if zerg goes for dark swarm, you just move back. Don't go mass BC and expect that to work. They are giant ships that do damage and soak lots of damage, but they work better mixed with actual support units. dark archons maelstrom bio and keep it in place for storm, like how fungal + bane KINDA beats terran bio in this game. Reaver wasn't broken. 125 damage after upgrade and it still had weaknesses. Colossus is broken, not reaver was. Colossus Fires very fast and at 15 damage opposed to 125, kills so much more zerg units compared to reaver that its stupid.

You didn't play much brood war? cause I played 10 years of it.

On December 24 2011 12:43 Goldfish wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2011 12:20 Big J wrote:
On December 24 2011 12:17 Goldfish wrote:
This might have been posted before but I think the only reason Blizzard is keeping the Thor is because of Collector's Edition bonus from WoL. They probably don't want anyone to be mad from buying CE for CE Thor then having it gone on HotS (when likely no one plays WoL anymore which means no more showing off that CE Thor).

Now my solution to Blizzard is to make a new CE version of a unit (The Warhound?) and transfer it to that unit.

They might not keep the Thor in game forever - what if they remove it in LotV? I hope Blizzard figures this out but the easiest way to solve this issue is to transfer the CE to a new unit. Make a CE version of Warhound that CE WoL players will be able to have.

I don't have CE but I can see some players being mad if they no longer have their exclusive unit (I would be too considering the CE Thor does look crazy).

Another way to solve this is to let CE players chose one mercenary version of a unit (like instead of marines, they can pick the war pigs marines).

Honestly... this is bullshit. It is the WoL collectors edition for a reason. in WoL you will still have your thor and in HotS I doubt that the (redisigned) thor will have a different design for people who bought the WoL collectors edition.


How is it BS? Few things:

1. Why no units removed from Terran but from only Zerg and Protoss. Dustin Browder already stated he thought Terran had too much stuff.

2. If they wanted a hero unit, why not just keep the Mothership but remove/revamp Vortex? (Only issue with Vortex is the Archon Toilet still works.) They are already redesigning certain existing units in HotS (Hydralisk gets speed upgrade off creep, Banes can move underground, and of course the Thor is redesigned). Why not just revamp the Mothership a little if they wanted a hero unit?

3. You doubt that based on? In WoW you keep things like pets from every CE (and achievement too but as feats of strength). While yes, it's an MMO, it does show Blizzard doesn't want to make people mad. In SC2 it's assumed you'll keep achievements/portraits too (there is no reason to think not since it's integrated with battle.net rather than SC2 WoL alone). The flag that determines whether you get the CE Thor is based on players having that CE Feats of Strength Achievement.

4. Finally if they remove CE Thor for HotS, this will discourage people from buying the HotS CE version (which will likely because there has been a CE for every WoW expansion and for Diablo III too). How will they entice people to buy the CE version if they don't get the stuff carried over? If you take into account SC, D2, and WC3, the expansion will make the original deserted/obsolete (few people play WC3 RoC for example).

Also I don't confirm that as a fact (Blizzard keeping the Thor only for CE) but just my speculation.


Not only are they not removing terran units, they're adding more. Consider this; they cross bred the firebat and vulture for a unit that moves fast, costs no gas (unlike the firebat), and does lots of splash AoE vs light. This increases versatility, yes? droppable harass, fast harass and run, good AoE vs light in full attacks. Medivacs take the medic and dropship and wed it to create a drop harass that is unprecedented in power compared to brood war. Not only that but if you manage to kill the marines, most of the time the medivac (healer PLUS dropship) gets away to save terran cost, unlike dropping medics and marines, ro using medics durting an attack. Then terran got mule calldown as well.

And then dustin comes out and says "Yes, terran has too much versatility" when the huge problem of marines continued to be brought up, not just by casual players and Bnet forum warriors, but by pros as well, people who make money from playing. And his response was "Too much versatility as of now".

DB, you explicitly designed terran to be more versatile than it was in brood war. Do you think before you create a product? Or do you do things because "they're cool" and hope for the best?


On December 24 2011 17:09 Rumpus wrote:
Haven't you guys heard? Blizzard's new marketing philosophy is quantity over quality. A very Activision style mentality.

If they do really want "Uber units" to be in this game and work as intended they have to stop half-assing the whole idea. How is this even considered a reasonable addition or change to the game when A) Absolutely no one finds them intriguing or "casual catering" and B) Only one race at a time is getting one!

By that logic you're trying to cater to a group of once non-Starcraft interested gamers BUT only a third of them (given all the races are played equally). This logic is a complete and utter failure and an incredibly huge debacle that they've put themselves into.

I don't really like to be critical of Blizzard because their track record in the long term is phenomenal. But this is just pathetic, it is clear they care little for this game or its continued success.



They're not introducing any changes that are explicitly for HotS. Not just new units, but change to existing units. They're holding you from these changes until paying money for them. This is activision policy and marketing technique down to the letter. Blizzard was good, I still have original warcraft and warcraft 2 CDs that I can load up in DOSbox and have a blast. I don't even have the battle.net version of WC2, thats how old my WC2 is. I got SC, and it was great, a lot of thought was put into it to make it a unique and well rounded strategy game. A lot of people are saying that the expansion to starcraft was designed to fix flaws in the original game, and I take issue with that, mostly because the medic was overkill for terran bio, and zerg had no AoE vs bio other than plague. they introduced the medic, to buff terran, and they introduced the lurker to counter the fact that terran got buffed. This is clearly an Addition design and not a Fix design. Not even that, At the time of releasing it, Blizzard, as it originally was, did not even hint at an expansion for SC.

All of the sudden, Activision "acquires" blizzard, fires a lot of the original workers, puts DB in charge, is a company solely responsible for splitting the Modern warfare series into 3 separate games, even though the hacks worked on day 1 of MW3's release, proving they had doing nothing to the game up new maps and guns, and charged full price for it, and then releases SC2 while also stating they're releasing two additional "expansions" for the game for new units and gameplay.

They announce beforehand that it's a multi-part game that will cost you multi-part dollars. What is this really? Blizzard doesn't exist in the old sense anymore, it is a name brand now and a subsidiary of a large corporation. The interest of large money making corporations are; keep them paying, keep them coming back for more, draw out the seller/consumer relationship as long as possible, by any means necessary. Anyone who's researched or personally experience credit card debt should understand this business model.

On the subject of control, Imagine going into a store and everything is bolted down, because you, the customer who buys from them, are not trusted, but thieves regularly break in and steal these bolted down goods with ease and are never caught. Blizzard requires that tournaments taking place get license from Blizzard. Even places that have gotten licensed have had their internet shut down by blizzard via IP or site ban, due to Blizzard forcing customers to log on and play. This also ensures that you must pay 60 dollars, and if you want to play with other people at all, whether over the internet or (over the internet again) in a house lan or a small tournament, you have to have an account that bnet approves of, completely opposite of the Spawn Installs the original blizzard explicitly put on Sc1 to allow people to play with friends, etc. meanwhile, the thieves who crack and create illegal SC2 copies get away with it completely free. restrictions only degrade the experience of legitimate customers. Why do customers opt to allow their experience to be degraded to such a degree because of a very small percentage of copyright infringers?

I feel people shouldn't buy HoTS until all the long standing issues are addressed. That would give activision a choice, a complete loss, or going the extra mile to give customers what they want. they would get to look good and salvage their game.


And the worst part is that customers take it all happily, i remember gaming 10-15 years ago and that model business would be ripped apart back then, nowadays people take everything what they give them, just to have product with Blizzard label on it.
Stork[gm]
Probe1
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States17920 Posts
December 24 2011 13:42 GMT
#210
On December 24 2011 21:37 MagmaRam wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2011 21:15 Probe1 wrote:
On December 24 2011 17:02 AlmightyJoker wrote:
you guys act like buying 3 games is soooo bad. for brood war you bought 2 and you all would have gladly bought another one. this is the exact same thing, +1. and hero units do have places in RTS, although i do not think they should be in sc2 at all. SC2 is about careful calculations and knowing exactly whats going on, and heroes add that bit of unpredictability that just doesn't fit right.

I purchased brood war when it came out. It was thirty dollars. Each of Starcraft 2s three parts are sixty dollars. Please don't be that guy that talks out of his ass.

Blizzard has said multiple times that the expansions are priced as expansions (I'm guessing $30-$40).

Until amazon changes my preorder from $60 that's just speculative. Blizzard likes to talk.
우정호 KT_VIOLET 1988 - 2012 While we are postponing, life speeds by
Mayd
Profile Joined August 2011
Finland251 Posts
December 24 2011 13:50 GMT
#211
On December 24 2011 22:42 Probe1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2011 21:37 MagmaRam wrote:
On December 24 2011 21:15 Probe1 wrote:
On December 24 2011 17:02 AlmightyJoker wrote:
you guys act like buying 3 games is soooo bad. for brood war you bought 2 and you all would have gladly bought another one. this is the exact same thing, +1. and hero units do have places in RTS, although i do not think they should be in sc2 at all. SC2 is about careful calculations and knowing exactly whats going on, and heroes add that bit of unpredictability that just doesn't fit right.

I purchased brood war when it came out. It was thirty dollars. Each of Starcraft 2s three parts are sixty dollars. Please don't be that guy that talks out of his ass.

Blizzard has said multiple times that the expansions are priced as expansions (I'm guessing $30-$40).

Until amazon changes my preorder from $60 that's just speculative. Blizzard likes to talk.


It's the max price. They don't know the real price yet.
유리 | 티파니 | 리지
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
December 24 2011 13:51 GMT
#212
On December 24 2011 08:47 zhurai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2011 08:45 Noocta wrote:
Because Dustin like the idea.
He come from C&C, remember ?

if that's the case all the races should have some hero unit, not just one race.


Negative. Every race shouldn't. It's a good thing Motherships and Thors have limited utility or else the game could revolve around such silly monstrosities. You cannot fix stupid.

It's like a Michael Bay movie. You can add all the razzle dazzle you want to make your product look posh, but once you remove all the special effects and detail. You end up with a steaming pile of trash.

teide
Profile Joined July 2011
Spain178 Posts
December 24 2011 14:02 GMT
#213
On December 24 2011 21:26 deadmau wrote:
Remove Mothership, and do not add the Hero HOTS Thor. Everyone's happy. Not that I think Mship is overpowered, or the forthcoming Thor will be OP, these types of units are just fucken silly in such a competitive RTS. ffs!


The best answer
My name is reek it rhymes with peek.
Radison
Profile Joined January 2010
Poland44 Posts
December 24 2011 14:10 GMT
#214
I wish Blizzard listened more to the players than to their own employees... I don't even understand what benefit does the company have from this. Were they gathering all the ideas from players they would have:
1) thousand time more of them
2) game much better suited to the players expectations -> higher income cause of more players
3) lower cost - we give them our best ideas for free just to let them make game we love more awesome
Probe1
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States17920 Posts
December 24 2011 14:12 GMT
#215
On December 24 2011 22:50 Mayd wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2011 22:42 Probe1 wrote:
On December 24 2011 21:37 MagmaRam wrote:
On December 24 2011 21:15 Probe1 wrote:
On December 24 2011 17:02 AlmightyJoker wrote:
you guys act like buying 3 games is soooo bad. for brood war you bought 2 and you all would have gladly bought another one. this is the exact same thing, +1. and hero units do have places in RTS, although i do not think they should be in sc2 at all. SC2 is about careful calculations and knowing exactly whats going on, and heroes add that bit of unpredictability that just doesn't fit right.

I purchased brood war when it came out. It was thirty dollars. Each of Starcraft 2s three parts are sixty dollars. Please don't be that guy that talks out of his ass.

Blizzard has said multiple times that the expansions are priced as expansions (I'm guessing $30-$40).

Until amazon changes my preorder from $60 that's just speculative. Blizzard likes to talk.


It's the max price. They don't know the real price yet.

Aaaaand neither do we!
..
QED; I know the price Brood War cost on release. I don't know what they will charge for HotS. Anyone see a problem with what I'm saying still?

Back on point though, the idea of a 'build only one' unit is just boring. They have to give it some abusive featuresand to balance it it has to be expensive - end of the game fleet beacon/fusion core tech. 3% of tournament games it actually comes into play and 0.8% of games it's useful. Wow. Awesome unit. Back to the drawing board please and don't come back with anything resembling that again!
우정호 KT_VIOLET 1988 - 2012 While we are postponing, life speeds by
[]Phase[]
Profile Joined September 2010
Belgium927 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-24 14:16:19
December 24 2011 14:14 GMT
#216
Blizzard : "Do you REALLY need chat?"

Us : "Do you REALLY need heroes in this game?"

Hero units have NO place in SC. It's about big armies fighting, not wc3. however like in the polls, if they REALLY REALLY REALLY want hero units, atleast give each race 1. how it currently is it makes no sence. Leave mothership in then, give the mega thor, and give zerg the leviathan. It won't be balanced and I still don't like heroes, but atleast it'll be abit more fair.
Pulimuli
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Sweden2766 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-24 14:21:09
December 24 2011 14:20 GMT
#217
Instead of making the Thor a hero unit they should just replace the warhound model with the thor model (since the thor looks way cooler and then the CE ppl would still have their special model)

That would be a win - win: the warhound gets a cooler looking model and no fking hero units
sorrowptoss
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Canada1431 Posts
December 24 2011 14:21 GMT
#218
Yeah, hero units are terrible. There were no "hero" units in BW and clearly things went much better. Get your stuff together, blizzard.
Jojo131
Profile Joined January 2011
Brazil1631 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-24 14:30:24
December 24 2011 14:24 GMT
#219
I think the mothership has a nice niche both in terms of game design and flavor as a unit of the protoss race.

As mentioned earlier, the mega thor just seems like a glorified DPS unit that isn't very interesting (currently). The mothership has had its flaws, but in the end people discovered its utility and it's at least seeing some light in PvZ. The reason why the mothership is interesting is because it's a support unit rather than an ez a-move DPS unit, it allows for more creativity.

While I dont like the idea of hero units in game, I think if blizzard really wants to go with this they need to seriously rethink the role of the Thor as a hero unit. This is gonna be pretty hard though given it's current role in game.

edit: What I dislike most about hero units (currently) is that they encourage deathball armies and engagements, which I dont like as a player and as a spectator. With the mothership it makes a bit of sense because of the invisibility, but then again that also makes it part of the problem. The mega thor feels like its going to be the same since it's presumably slow and would need some babysitting.
RogerX
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
New Zealand3180 Posts
December 24 2011 14:27 GMT
#220
They should be banned from ranked play and competitive play however let them be an OPTION as an available unit in CUSTOM games. There, solved.
Stick it up. take it up. step aside and see the world
BEARDiaguz
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Australia2362 Posts
December 24 2011 14:33 GMT
#221
Keep 'em I say!

People forget that there were these two units in Broodwar: The Scout and the Ghost. They served no actual strategic purpose because they were pretty much useless but when people built them it was badass. Why can't we have 'cool' units in SC2? Why can't we have fun with this fucking game?
ProgamerAustralian alcohol user follow @iaguzSC2
Patrio
Profile Joined September 2007
Norway706 Posts
December 24 2011 14:34 GMT
#222
Are they limiting motherships to 1 because of lore or imbalance issues?

If it's because of imbalance issues then it's obvious the mothership is too good for its cost..

Would people be satisfied if there was no limit to the amount of motherships protosses could have?
Zerg Bunker
goDrop_
Profile Joined August 2011
Poland43 Posts
December 24 2011 14:36 GMT
#223
On December 24 2011 23:33 iaguz wrote:
Keep 'em I say!

People forget that there were these two units in Broodwar: The Scout and the Ghost. They served no actual strategic purpose because they were pretty much useless but when people built them it was badass. Why can't we have 'cool' units in SC2? Why can't we have fun with this fucking game?


Because scout and ghosts we're terrible, and this Thor won't be, and to be honest, there was never a hero unit in Starcraft universe in multiplayer.


topic:
I don't want them to be implemented.
everybody hates pvp
hellraiser1110
Profile Joined November 2010
Croatia70 Posts
December 24 2011 14:37 GMT
#224
There should be hero units in game but they should not be viable in a high level match, a hero unit should cost like 500/500 and take up 10 food or something like that. And also it seems stupid that only one race has a hero unit, every race should have one like Odin for T, Mothership for P and Leviathan for Z. So there would be hero units ingame but noone would use them bcuz they cost too much and require too much tech.
clownzim
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Brazil267 Posts
December 24 2011 14:42 GMT
#225
hero units are cool if all races have a good one
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
taintmachine
Profile Joined May 2010
United States431 Posts
December 24 2011 14:51 GMT
#226
i dislike the idea of a hero unit in sc2. the RTSes with good hero systems have mechanics to make them work, like experience gain, customization, items, and unit balance (broad category, think how in wc3 and dow2 have much smaller armies than bw or sc2)

blizz went mostly the right way with the mothership i think, considering they decided to add a hero unit at all. hopefully they don't decide they need more powerful hero units with the thor
Railgan
Profile Joined August 2010
Switzerland1507 Posts
December 24 2011 14:54 GMT
#227
On December 24 2011 23:37 hellraiser1110 wrote:
There should be hero units in game but they should not be viable in a high level match, a hero unit should cost like 500/500 and take up 10 food or something like that. And also it seems stupid that only one race has a hero unit, every race should have one like Odin for T, Mothership for P and Leviathan for Z. So there would be hero units ingame but noone would use them bcuz they cost too much and require too much tech.

2 broods or a leviathan
Grandmaster Zerg from Switzerland!!! www.twitch.tv/railgan // www.twitter.com/railgansc // www.youtube.com/c/railgansc
Sprouter
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1724 Posts
December 24 2011 15:08 GMT
#228
Blizzard says they want to unclump the ball of death but a hero unit encourages the big bad ball, especially when the hero unit is slow and expensive. It's a really strange design choice. I can kind of see how it fits in if it's really, really slow so it's something to park at an expo, but then there are already shredders and planetaries.
imPermanenCe
Profile Joined July 2011
Netherlands595 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-24 15:11:35
December 24 2011 15:09 GMT
#229
The fact that the mothership is getting used more and more, makes the decision to remove it in HotS quite interesting.
They may not remove the MS at all if they see it's getting used more and more. Although I'd rather have recall on my nexus, than having a mothership :D

edit: as for my opinion, I'd rather have no hero/super units for any race. I'll play WC3 if I wanna own with some heroes.
Gogo arbiter!
Micro at its best is like an elegant dance between two people trying to achieve a similar end.
Humanfails
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
224 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-24 15:23:43
December 24 2011 15:16 GMT
#230
On December 24 2011 22:50 Mayd wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2011 22:42 Probe1 wrote:
On December 24 2011 21:37 MagmaRam wrote:
On December 24 2011 21:15 Probe1 wrote:
On December 24 2011 17:02 AlmightyJoker wrote:
you guys act like buying 3 games is soooo bad. for brood war you bought 2 and you all would have gladly bought another one. this is the exact same thing, +1. and hero units do have places in RTS, although i do not think they should be in sc2 at all. SC2 is about careful calculations and knowing exactly whats going on, and heroes add that bit of unpredictability that just doesn't fit right.

I purchased brood war when it came out. It was thirty dollars. Each of Starcraft 2s three parts are sixty dollars. Please don't be that guy that talks out of his ass.

Blizzard has said multiple times that the expansions are priced as expansions (I'm guessing $30-$40).

Until amazon changes my preorder from $60 that's just speculative. Blizzard likes to talk.


It's the max price. They don't know the real price yet.


Pretty much. All they have stated for fact is that it will be "expansion priced". They have not stated whether this the price of an expansion in the 90s or the price of an expansion in the 2010's. Remember, MW3 was an expansion on MW2, even though its priced as a whole new game, simply because it has new guns, another PART of the 3 part story, and new maps. It's the same game engine and everything, they make you pay 60$ for storyline and new maps.

Time will tell. For certain.

On December 24 2011 22:24 Headsortails wrote:
Artanis in BW said it best. "This is not Warcraft in space!"



Yeah, and to all people saying heros are fine, Hows that WC3 pro tournament scene? Most people don't even consider it competitive in the fair sense. It's there, but noone sees it as the pinnacle of skill precisely because of hero units.
mattdevils
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada20 Posts
December 24 2011 15:36 GMT
#231
If they wanna take the mothership out go ahead but their gonna have to give Protoss something else in return to correct balance. And i'm sure people will complain about the correction more then they ever would about the mother ship. its impossible to make the masses happy.
Conti
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany2516 Posts
December 24 2011 15:37 GMT
#232
I don't really follow the OP of this thread, to be honest. The archon toilet makes the mothership kinda OP (or at least not fun to watch). That's why it will be removed. The OP follows that therefore the new superthor will be just as OP without backing that claim up one bit.
Nobody knows what the new superthor will be able to do and if it will be worth it at all. It might as well be a viable unit in the end. Just because it's a hero unit does not make it a terrible, imbalanced unit by definition.

Also, the poll is terrible and designed to make people agree with the OP.

Also also, how on earth is "We'll remove the one hero unit in the game and add another one instead." an obsession on Blizzard's part? Seriously?
LF9
Profile Joined November 2009
United States537 Posts
December 24 2011 15:46 GMT
#233
lol mothership isn't even a "hero" unit. It doesn't level up or anything. It's simply a "unique" or "hardcapped" unit. OP is a dumbass who i'm guessing plays Z and just lost to vortex + mass storm or archon toilet and is butt-hurt. sorry you lost, spread your units better? I don't know what to say. If you can't spread units out, I have no idea how you deal with templars as zerg . . .
Silidons
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States2813 Posts
December 24 2011 15:47 GMT
#234
On December 24 2011 23:34 Patrio wrote:
Are they limiting motherships to 1 because of lore or imbalance issues?

If it's because of imbalance issues then it's obvious the mothership is too good for its cost..

Would people be satisfied if there was no limit to the amount of motherships protosses could have?

did you even read the OP?
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon Bonaparte
LF9
Profile Joined November 2009
United States537 Posts
December 24 2011 15:50 GMT
#235
If you didn't, you might want to just save yourself the lost brain cells. You will be stupider for having read it.


OP in summation:
"I lost to a mothership and I'm bitching about it and venting with a rigged poll while directing my frustration at sucking into an attack on 'hero' units".
power-overwhelming
Profile Joined December 2011
Canada306 Posts
December 24 2011 16:01 GMT
#236
On December 24 2011 16:47 ZiegFeld wrote:
As badly written as OP's post is, he has a point.

Where the hell are the hero units for Terran and Zerg?

Or remove Mothership entirely and offer each race another mass-able high tier unit.

And yeah. Motherships are effing ridiculous. They aren't overpowered, but definitely offer Protoss a considerable edge in the late game.


Really? You're going there?

Any end game unit composition ALWAYS HARD counters protoss unit composition. Protoss only has one unit composition, gate + colo/archon. Mothership only works vs the Zerg (vikings destroys motherships easily), but that is only if the Zerg clumps their air together.

people bash protoss players for being bad because their units were clumped in a wider aoe spell than storm (before the patch). Telling them "lol spread ur unitz diamond playerz". Now zerg air units with better pathing should have easier time avoiding vortex.

Terran and Zerg don't need a hero unit. Mothership is not even viable against good zergs. Hero using mothership against foreigners is not a good example.
fabiano
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Brazil4644 Posts
December 24 2011 16:16 GMT
#237
Save Hero units for the Warcraft franchise.

SC2 already killed and dumbed down a lot of the Starcraft brand essence, adding such units will just be another huge slap in the face of those who have been playing SC for over 10 years.

Horrible design decisions all over the game...
"When the geyser died, a probe came out" - SirJolt
RyanRushia
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2748 Posts
December 24 2011 16:17 GMT
#238
i'm a warcraft 3 player... totally miss my heroes, loved the dynamic they brought into the game, and quite a fan of hero units as i like how they help change game
I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set him free. | coL.Ryan | www.twitter.com/coL_RyanR
Taawus
Profile Joined February 2010
Estonia36 Posts
December 24 2011 16:25 GMT
#239
Get rid of mothership, bring back Arbiter.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
December 24 2011 16:27 GMT
#240
On December 24 2011 23:10 Radison wrote:
I wish Blizzard listened more to the players than to their own employees... I don't even understand what benefit does the company have from this. Were they gathering all the ideas from players they would have:
1) thousand time more of them
2) game much better suited to the players expectations -> higher income cause of more players
3) lower cost - we give them our best ideas for free just to let them make game we love more awesome



ad 1) 99,999% of the so called ideas from the community are either balance suggestions ("i want stronger tanks so they need less support", "i want weaker colossi because i think they are to hard to deal with" are some of the more thought outones. others are just plainly stupid "pheonix needs 5more damage per shot" is just an example of a completly gamebreaking one...) or not new at all (give me corsairs... Remake KA... remove marauder...)
I dont think that among the small percentage of remaining ideas there is a lot that is really useable without requiring huge huge redesign processes.
Furthermore people who have never made such a complex game simply dont have any clue about what is possible and what is completly broken/useless to begin with

ad 2) no. i want a game that is being made by experts, not by a random mass of people. also i want a game that is stable and not one that gets changed everytime some poll says that "currently the xel naga are more in than terrans. terrans should be removed."
and Im pretty sure that a lot of people would stop playing if SC2 would turn into a community project. especially the 95% that dont give a shit about sc forums.

ad 3) so you think constantly communicating with the community and more patches/content to satisfy more people is cheaper than a simple organized firm structure? if you were right about that, you just had broken the economic system...
fabiano
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Brazil4644 Posts
December 24 2011 16:28 GMT
#241
On December 25 2011 01:17 RyanRushia wrote:
i'm a warcraft 3 player... totally miss my heroes, loved the dynamic they brought into the game, and quite a fan of hero units as i like how they help change game


Heroes do not belong to SC.

Someone should use the SC2 map editor and create a WC4 wannabe, I probably would enjoy it more than SC2, but please no Heroes in SC.
"When the geyser died, a probe came out" - SirJolt
birdkicker
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States752 Posts
December 24 2011 16:35 GMT
#242
To be honest, Mothership is bullshit in that it pretty much fucks up every zerg composition in an even battle. Not even that, but once Protoss gets a big enough ball, Zerg's chance to winning effectively falls to 0%. That's why I think Zerg needs a "hero unit" more then Terran, but whatever, don't even like the idea of a hero unit in the first place.
briandawkins
Profile Joined October 2010
United States19 Posts
December 24 2011 16:46 GMT
#243
For fuck's sake,
Hows that WC3 pro tournament scene? Most people don't even consider it competitive in the fair sense. It's there, but noone sees it as the pinnacle of skill precisely because of hero units.

is false and irrelevant. The only similarity between the Mothership/HotS Thor and WC3 heroes is that you may only have one at a time. That's it. The rest of their mechanics are entirely different and their roles in their respective games are entirely different.
power-overwhelming
Profile Joined December 2011
Canada306 Posts
December 24 2011 16:47 GMT
#244
On December 25 2011 01:35 birdkicker wrote:
To be honest, Mothership is bullshit in that it pretty much fucks up every zerg composition in an even battle. Not even that, but once Protoss gets a big enough ball, Zerg's chance to winning effectively falls to 0%. That's why I think Zerg needs a "hero unit" more then Terran, but whatever, don't even like the idea of a hero unit in the first place.


Ever heard of spreading units? I hear those floating units can fly over cliffs and stuff. I think it won't be that hard. I also hear that a zerg spell caster unit has a mind control ability on top of a stunning aoe dmg spell and spammable unit spawn. I also hear that mind control ability takes less time to research than building a Mothership and its energy for vortex.
Zdrastochye
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
December 24 2011 16:50 GMT
#245
On December 25 2011 01:01 power-overwhelming wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2011 16:47 ZiegFeld wrote:
As badly written as OP's post is, he has a point.

Where the hell are the hero units for Terran and Zerg?

Or remove Mothership entirely and offer each race another mass-able high tier unit.

And yeah. Motherships are effing ridiculous. They aren't overpowered, but definitely offer Protoss a considerable edge in the late game.


Really? You're going there?

Any end game unit composition ALWAYS HARD counters protoss unit composition. Protoss only has one unit composition, gate + colo/archon. Mothership only works vs the Zerg (vikings destroys motherships easily), but that is only if the Zerg clumps their air together.

people bash protoss players for being bad because their units were clumped in a wider aoe spell than storm (before the patch). Telling them "lol spread ur unitz diamond playerz". Now zerg air units with better pathing should have easier time avoiding vortex.

Terran and Zerg don't need a hero unit. Mothership is not even viable against good zergs. Hero using mothership against foreigners is not a good example.


I'm guessing you're a Protoss player... I'm pretty sure Protoss has the edge in any late-game scenario vs all three races, that's what they get compensated for having such a vulnerable early game.

On topic, the fact that motherships are used quite often in lategame PvZ to stop huge broodlord forces shows that they're not just some hero unit for bronzies to get and feel like they're playing Warcraft in space - it's actually getting fair usage (more so than the carrier lol) and isn't completely trolling to get. If they manage to make the Odin an actually viable unit that has some reason to be in the game, there's no issue with it just being a Terran unit. As long as it has some facet in one of the T matchups then I see no reason for it not to get implemented. Who says every race has to have a hero unit? Nobody is refusing to play vP matchups because they have the only hero unit.
Hey! How you doin'?
Bagi
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6799 Posts
December 24 2011 16:56 GMT
#246
I don't think Blizzard is "obsessed" with adding hero units.

1) They've openly admitted that the mothership is a failed unit and they want to get rid of it
2) The reason this hero thor exists is because Blizzard is reluctant to remove the unit entirely. Why? Because that would essentially remove the CE bonus that made your thors look special, and potentially upset a lot of players who bought it.

Don't expect the super-thor to be a viable unit in the competitive scene, its just there for fun.
KingAce
Profile Joined September 2010
United States471 Posts
December 24 2011 16:59 GMT
#247
The mothership is being removed just when it was getting some uses. However, I agree with the sentiments OP has about hero units. Why bother? This is a war simulation not an rpg.
"You're defined by the WORST of your group..." Bill Burr
BlitzerSC
Profile Joined May 2011
Italy8800 Posts
December 24 2011 17:00 GMT
#248
On December 24 2011 23:36 goDrop_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2011 23:33 iaguz wrote:
Keep 'em I say!

People forget that there were these two units in Broodwar: The Scout and the Ghost. They served no actual strategic purpose because they were pretty much useless but when people built them it was badass. Why can't we have 'cool' units in SC2? Why can't we have fun with this fucking game?


Because scout and ghosts we're terrible, and this Thor won't be, and to be honest, there was never a hero unit in Starcraft universe in multiplayer.


topic:
I don't want them to be implemented.


Yeah, because you clearly know the correct stats of that Thor.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
December 24 2011 17:00 GMT
#249
On December 25 2011 01:50 Zdrastochye wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 25 2011 01:01 power-overwhelming wrote:
On December 24 2011 16:47 ZiegFeld wrote:
As badly written as OP's post is, he has a point.

Where the hell are the hero units for Terran and Zerg?

Or remove Mothership entirely and offer each race another mass-able high tier unit.

And yeah. Motherships are effing ridiculous. They aren't overpowered, but definitely offer Protoss a considerable edge in the late game.


Really? You're going there?

Any end game unit composition ALWAYS HARD counters protoss unit composition. Protoss only has one unit composition, gate + colo/archon. Mothership only works vs the Zerg (vikings destroys motherships easily), but that is only if the Zerg clumps their air together.

people bash protoss players for being bad because their units were clumped in a wider aoe spell than storm (before the patch). Telling them "lol spread ur unitz diamond playerz". Now zerg air units with better pathing should have easier time avoiding vortex.

Terran and Zerg don't need a hero unit. Mothership is not even viable against good zergs. Hero using mothership against foreigners is not a good example.


I'm guessing you're a Protoss player... I'm pretty sure Protoss has the edge in any late-game scenario vs all three races, that's what they get compensated for having such a vulnerable early game.

On topic, the fact that motherships are used quite often in lategame PvZ to stop huge broodlord forces shows that they're not just some hero unit for bronzies to get and feel like they're playing Warcraft in space - it's actually getting fair usage (more so than the carrier lol) and isn't completely trolling to get. If they manage to make the Odin an actually viable unit that has some reason to be in the game, there's no issue with it just being a Terran unit. As long as it has some facet in one of the T matchups then I see no reason for it not to get implemented. Who says every race has to have a hero unit? Nobody is refusing to play vP matchups because they have the only hero unit.

and Im sure that those "race X has the best composition at time X" are bullshit to begin with.

For the rest of the post... very spot on!

Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
December 24 2011 17:04 GMT
#250
On December 25 2011 01:59 KingAce wrote:
The mothership is being removed just when it was getting some uses. However, I agree with the sentiments OP has about hero units. Why bother? This is a war simulation not an rpg.


No it's not. it's a RTS game based on unit stats(like "you can only build one of this") and action restriction.
DyEnasTy
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States3714 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-24 17:34:26
December 24 2011 17:23 GMT
#251
On December 24 2011 08:45 Noocta wrote:
Because Dustin like the idea.
He come from C&C, remember ?


HotS is C&C mixed with Transformers.

I agree with OP, hero units have no place in an rts like SC.

edit: Because of this new "hero" addition blizzard is doing, coupled with the other ridiculous changes they are making (wtf battle hellion and warhound?) I am at a crossroads on whether or not I want to buy HotS. I enjoy WoL, but I feel like Dustin is doing things based on his C&C experience and isnt in touch with the long term community and only thinks about the casual short term players and their money.
Much better to die an awesome Terran than to live as a magic wielding fairy or a mindless sac of biological goop. -Manifesto7
birdkicker
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States752 Posts
December 24 2011 17:46 GMT
#252
On December 25 2011 01:47 power-overwhelming wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 25 2011 01:35 birdkicker wrote:
To be honest, Mothership is bullshit in that it pretty much fucks up every zerg composition in an even battle. Not even that, but once Protoss gets a big enough ball, Zerg's chance to winning effectively falls to 0%. That's why I think Zerg needs a "hero unit" more then Terran, but whatever, don't even like the idea of a hero unit in the first place.


Ever heard of spreading units? I hear those floating units can fly over cliffs and stuff. I think it won't be that hard. I also hear that a zerg spell caster unit has a mind control ability on top of a stunning aoe dmg spell and spammable unit spawn. I also hear that mind control ability takes less time to research than building a Mothership and its energy for vortex.


Are you stupid? You have no idea what you're talking about. Spreading broodlords leaves them vulnerable for stalkers to snipe them easily, and even if not, you will be fighting with half of what you have to all of the protoss's units. Neural parasite is 7 range so its a joke that you are even taking that into the discussion; you shouldn't be able to neural parasite a protoss's mothership.
BeeNu
Profile Joined June 2011
615 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-24 17:55:16
December 24 2011 17:53 GMT
#253
On December 25 2011 01:47 power-overwhelming wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 25 2011 01:35 birdkicker wrote:
To be honest, Mothership is bullshit in that it pretty much fucks up every zerg composition in an even battle. Not even that, but once Protoss gets a big enough ball, Zerg's chance to winning effectively falls to 0%. That's why I think Zerg needs a "hero unit" more then Terran, but whatever, don't even like the idea of a hero unit in the first place.


Ever heard of spreading units? I hear those floating units can fly over cliffs and stuff. I think it won't be that hard. I also hear that a zerg spell caster unit has a mind control ability on top of a stunning aoe dmg spell and spammable unit spawn. I also hear that mind control ability takes less time to research than building a Mothership and its energy for vortex.


What you just said makes me think you haven't actually played as Zerg vs a Protoss deathball that includes the Mothership, so I'm going to explain to you why you are wrong.

Spreading your Broodlords is not really a very useful suggestion because even if you spread them out as best as you can you will still be losing a significant portion of your total army and anything left outside of the Vortex is very vulnerable to simply dying since a portion of your army is not in the battle at all.

Neural Parasite is not a solution either since it has been gimped so heavily pretty much any time you try to use it vs a Protoss all that happens is your Infestor dies for nothing even if you are crazy good with how you position your Infestors.

Infestors also have Fungal Growth...yeah, ok? That's a neat little tidbit you added but it's entirely irrelevant to this discussion since Fungal Growth has never and will never be a significant factor regarding this issue.

The only semi-relevant thing you mentioned was Infested Terrans since I have seen lately that there is a method involving spamming Infested Terrans outside of the Vortex and microing your Broodlords out over them to not entirely lose your whole army for nothing. The only major problem with this tactic is that if this approach becomes more common all Protoss will have to do is be prepared for it and use Colossus or Storm to kill off most of the Infested Terrans before the Vortex wears off.
sofakng
Profile Joined December 2011
100 Posts
December 24 2011 18:01 GMT
#254
They should just make it the arbiter again. It was a great unit and Id rather have stasis field like ability to balance it but keep a very strong late game unit vs a ridiculously strong late game zerg army which will only become better in hots while im left with less options (carriers).
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
December 24 2011 18:35 GMT
#255
On December 25 2011 02:53 BeeNu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 25 2011 01:47 power-overwhelming wrote:
On December 25 2011 01:35 birdkicker wrote:
To be honest, Mothership is bullshit in that it pretty much fucks up every zerg composition in an even battle. Not even that, but once Protoss gets a big enough ball, Zerg's chance to winning effectively falls to 0%. That's why I think Zerg needs a "hero unit" more then Terran, but whatever, don't even like the idea of a hero unit in the first place.


Ever heard of spreading units? I hear those floating units can fly over cliffs and stuff. I think it won't be that hard. I also hear that a zerg spell caster unit has a mind control ability on top of a stunning aoe dmg spell and spammable unit spawn. I also hear that mind control ability takes less time to research than building a Mothership and its energy for vortex.


What you just said makes me think you haven't actually played as Zerg vs a Protoss deathball that includes the Mothership, so I'm going to explain to you why you are wrong.

Spreading your Broodlords is not really a very useful suggestion because even if you spread them out as best as you can you will still be losing a significant portion of your total army and anything left outside of the Vortex is very vulnerable to simply dying since a portion of your army is not in the battle at all.

Neural Parasite is not a solution either since it has been gimped so heavily pretty much any time you try to use it vs a Protoss all that happens is your Infestor dies for nothing even if you are crazy good with how you position your Infestors.

Infestors also have Fungal Growth...yeah, ok? That's a neat little tidbit you added but it's entirely irrelevant to this discussion since Fungal Growth has never and will never be a significant factor regarding this issue.

The only semi-relevant thing you mentioned was Infested Terrans since I have seen lately that there is a method involving spamming Infested Terrans outside of the Vortex and microing your Broodlords out over them to not entirely lose your whole army for nothing. The only major problem with this tactic is that if this approach becomes more common all Protoss will have to do is be prepared for it and use Colossus or Storm to kill off most of the Infested Terrans before the Vortex wears off.

pros started to spread broodlords months ago. not only against mothetships, but also against templar. Grubby vs stephano from battlr for berlin comes to my mind initially as an example.
There is really nothing else to say about this. it's happening and it is efficient.
LastDance
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
New Zealand510 Posts
December 24 2011 18:39 GMT
#256
Man i really hope they scrap this hero unit idea by the end of it.
[F_]aths
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany3947 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-24 19:13:45
December 24 2011 19:11 GMT
#257
I think anyone who still likes SC1 better, can (and should) then play SC1.

SC2 was made to address a large audience. A "hero unit" (though it is not a hero unit in the sense of Warcraft 3) appeals to some. Why not?

Many assumptions in this thread are too early. SC2 is really dumbed down, compared to SC1? I would rather say, SC2 has not been figured out yet. It even has not been completely released yet as two expansions are still to come. If there is a "hero unit", you don't need to build it. I don't understand why so many guys oppose this concept.

Did the mothership really hurt the game? I rather remember the excitement of the audience of someone went for an early mothership or built the mothership at all. A hero unit (mothership or thor) can also attract lower league players.

Why not get them into SC? Really, why not? It still is Starcraft after all, but modernized for our time.
You don't choose to play zerg. The zerg choose you.
Incidious
Profile Joined July 2011
14 Posts
December 24 2011 19:15 GMT
#258
I Don't know what the big fuss is all about. Sometimes I begin to believe that some people in this community would prefer to have only units that work like the marine, with no function except to run and shoot.

The mothership was an attempt to put complexity into the functionality of units, similar to how any spell caster makes the game more interesting. It failed. Now Blizzard is going to take what it learned and try again. Don't like that Terran gets it this time around? Don't worry, your banelings will soon move burrowed, I think you zergs will have enough fun with that. Wanna harass or counterattack a Protoss? well, be careful, because they will be able to recall back to their base WITHOUT a mothership on the field. Hell, they can just turn their Nexus, or ANY building in question into a friggen cannon.

Some people will like the Thor and some won't, that's just the nature of the beast. Just PLEASE quit commenting on its balance gravitas, and whether or not SCII is conforming to "what an RTS should be like". No game should have to conform to constraints posed to it simply by what genre people place it in.

And this isn't Broodwar. Stop criticizing SCII for not being the same game with better graphics.
Chicane
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7875 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-24 19:24:35
December 24 2011 19:21 GMT
#259
On December 24 2011 08:34 Ninja_Bread wrote:
What a flawed vote system "especially when only one race has access to it"

Why can't people who make polls just have 'yes' 'no' and then let people write why in their descriptions....


Yes, thank you. I say this on so many polls.

So many polls have ridiculous options like...

-Yes, they should not allow hero units in the game.
-No, I think they should have hero units in the game even though it makes it imbalanced.

-_-

That's a bit of an exaggeration for this one, but not for some of the polls I have seen. Is it really so difficult for people to leave their opinions and bias out of a poll so that people can vote fairly? I looked at the options and didn't vote because my opinion did not line up with any of them, while a simple, "Yes" "No" "I don't know" selection would have covered everything, or at least nearly everything.


On December 25 2011 03:35 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 25 2011 02:53 BeeNu wrote:
On December 25 2011 01:47 power-overwhelming wrote:
On December 25 2011 01:35 birdkicker wrote:
To be honest, Mothership is bullshit in that it pretty much fucks up every zerg composition in an even battle. Not even that, but once Protoss gets a big enough ball, Zerg's chance to winning effectively falls to 0%. That's why I think Zerg needs a "hero unit" more then Terran, but whatever, don't even like the idea of a hero unit in the first place.


Ever heard of spreading units? I hear those floating units can fly over cliffs and stuff. I think it won't be that hard. I also hear that a zerg spell caster unit has a mind control ability on top of a stunning aoe dmg spell and spammable unit spawn. I also hear that mind control ability takes less time to research than building a Mothership and its energy for vortex.


What you just said makes me think you haven't actually played as Zerg vs a Protoss deathball that includes the Mothership, so I'm going to explain to you why you are wrong.

Spreading your Broodlords is not really a very useful suggestion because even if you spread them out as best as you can you will still be losing a significant portion of your total army and anything left outside of the Vortex is very vulnerable to simply dying since a portion of your army is not in the battle at all.

Neural Parasite is not a solution either since it has been gimped so heavily pretty much any time you try to use it vs a Protoss all that happens is your Infestor dies for nothing even if you are crazy good with how you position your Infestors.

Infestors also have Fungal Growth...yeah, ok? That's a neat little tidbit you added but it's entirely irrelevant to this discussion since Fungal Growth has never and will never be a significant factor regarding this issue.

The only semi-relevant thing you mentioned was Infested Terrans since I have seen lately that there is a method involving spamming Infested Terrans outside of the Vortex and microing your Broodlords out over them to not entirely lose your whole army for nothing. The only major problem with this tactic is that if this approach becomes more common all Protoss will have to do is be prepared for it and use Colossus or Storm to kill off most of the Infested Terrans before the Vortex wears off.

pros started to spread broodlords months ago. not only against mothetships, but also against templar. Grubby vs stephano from battlr for berlin comes to my mind initially as an example.
There is really nothing else to say about this. it's happening and it is efficient.


And conveniently he didn't even take a look from the protoss perspective who also has to send his units into the vortex, therefore putting them out of the fight. On top of that some will naturally run in if you try to attack a zerg who backs a bit away from the vortex.

In any event, I would much rather have the arbiter back... I'm not sure why they are so stubborn about bringing back units that seem like they will fit. It seems like they are worried about getting called out for not being original... I just don't understand.
Balgrog
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States1221 Posts
December 24 2011 19:25 GMT
#260
These are not hero units, please learn more about RTS's and Hero units to begin with!
The only way to attack structure is with chaos.
power-overwhelming
Profile Joined December 2011
Canada306 Posts
December 24 2011 19:28 GMT
#261
At least the OP was successful in creating a whine thread.

User was warned for this post
HowardRoark
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
1146 Posts
December 24 2011 19:42 GMT
#262
Hero units and Protoss overall design are the worst WTF-moment from Blizzard since parting with Bill Roper. Bill would never ever put heroes or Colossus or Sentries in Starcraft.
"It is really good to get the double observatory if you want to get the speed and sight range for the observer simultaneously. It's a little bit of an advanced tactic, and by advanced, I mean really fucking bad."
Necca
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany43 Posts
December 24 2011 19:45 GMT
#263
Only Protoss has a hero unit?

Whats about Marines and Broodlords?
Darkstar_X
Profile Joined May 2010
United States197 Posts
December 24 2011 19:45 GMT
#264
On December 25 2011 04:42 HowardRoark wrote:
Hero units and Protoss overall design are the worst WTF-moment from Blizzard since parting with Bill Roper. Bill would never ever put heroes or Colossus or Sentries in Starcraft.

Heroes?? Are high templar hero units too, or are all spell casters. This thread is ridiculous.
TurboDreams
Profile Joined April 2009
United States427 Posts
December 24 2011 19:52 GMT
#265
On December 25 2011 01:56 Bagi wrote:
I don't think Blizzard is "obsessed" with adding hero units.

1) They've openly admitted that the mothership is a failed unit and they want to get rid of it
2) The reason this hero thor exists is because Blizzard is reluctant to remove the unit entirely. Why? Because that would essentially remove the CE bonus that made your thors look special, and potentially upset a lot of players who bought it.

Don't expect the super-thor to be a viable unit in the competitive scene, its just there for fun.

I actually agree with this. The only real reason for keeping the Thor was because people bought the CE version.
Music is the medicine of the mind || Kill a Zergling and a hundred more will take its place.
Vultcher
Profile Joined December 2011
United States17 Posts
December 24 2011 19:53 GMT
#266
I thought that the Mothership was very awesome from a flavor aspect and I would love to see units like that for every race
Carryon Vultcher
CreativeAlias
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States49 Posts
December 24 2011 19:54 GMT
#267
As long as the unit isn't so broken that you can win simply by rushing to it, it doesn't splash like a tank, and it can't shoot up, I'm fine with an uber-thor. Terran needed a way to deal with ultralisks anyway IMO, and maybe this will be it.
"Once upon a time, 1-A. Good night little boy."--Day[9]
Faranth
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
933 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-09 17:50:19
December 24 2011 19:56 GMT
#268
--- Nuked ---
chadissilent
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada1187 Posts
December 24 2011 19:58 GMT
#269
On December 25 2011 04:54 CreativeAlias wrote:
As long as the unit isn't so broken that you can win simply by rushing to it, it doesn't splash like a tank, and it can't shoot up, I'm fine with an uber-thor. Terran needed a way to deal with ultralisks anyway IMO, and maybe this will be it.

Marauders and tanks do pretty well against ultralisks.
CreativeAlias
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States49 Posts
December 24 2011 20:03 GMT
#270
On December 25 2011 04:58 chadissilent wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 25 2011 04:54 CreativeAlias wrote:
As long as the unit isn't so broken that you can win simply by rushing to it, it doesn't splash like a tank, and it can't shoot up, I'm fine with an uber-thor. Terran needed a way to deal with ultralisks anyway IMO, and maybe this will be it.

Marauders and tanks do pretty well against ultralisks.


True, but the reason for making ultralisks is to let banelings get in range of everything, so cracklings can clean up. Tanks and marauders will kill the ultralisks, but not until too late. If this super-thor is truly a "hero" unit, then it should, if nothing else, force a few more ultralisks. Then again, I suppose it isn't fair to only add in one new unit to the mix...
"Once upon a time, 1-A. Good night little boy."--Day[9]
TotalNightmare
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Germany139 Posts
December 24 2011 20:15 GMT
#271
The only actual Hero-Units the game has are HerO's units :D!
"That's like somone walking into YOUR house and putting a plant down on the table and starting to water it. While he shoots you with a gun!" - Day9
hzflank
Profile Joined August 2011
United Kingdom2991 Posts
December 24 2011 21:12 GMT
#272
Coming from an age of mythology background I have no problem with this. Only the greeks had hero units, but they did not interfere with balance.

In SC2, I see no reason why one race having a hero unit should be a balance problem. But you need to make the hero unit easier to build and design the race around the assumption that they will always have a hero unit out in the mid and late game.
XenoX101
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia729 Posts
December 24 2011 22:06 GMT
#273
On December 25 2011 04:28 power-overwhelming wrote:
At least the OP was successful in creating a whine thread.

User was warned for this post


Don't know why you were warned, anyone who took the time to read the OP would see that it is more or less just a whine about the Mothership's vortex vs Zerg. If anything the OP should've been warned for posting that drivel.
Talic_Zealot
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
688 Posts
December 24 2011 22:16 GMT
#274
I don't see the problem, they put it there for casual players' fun.. In professional play it would be either impractical or perfectly balanced.
There are three types of people in the universe: those who can count, and those who cant.
AKspartan
Profile Joined January 2011
United States126 Posts
December 24 2011 22:36 GMT
#275
What's really scary about the new hero unit is terran can pull a dozen SCVs or call a bunch of mules down to repair it and make it extremely difficult to kill. It's going to be like a mobile PF.
AKspartan
Profile Joined January 2011
United States126 Posts
December 24 2011 22:37 GMT
#276
I can guarantee that in HOTS a new popular cheese will be a one base marine/odin rush with all SCVs pulled.
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10321 Posts
December 24 2011 22:46 GMT
#277
yeah i don't understand why remove the mothership ?? why not keep it in? then just give zerg one in their expansion, or better yet give zerg one in HotS as well

but yeah they don't really fit in sc2 tbh

I mean cmon why only 1 mothership? they are just big arbiters now. Why can't you build more than one? seriously? (Well vortex is a lot stronger than stasis field I guess, but there's a lot of ways they can fix the toilet being too easy problem)

it should be thanks to design that you are not encouraged to need more than 1, not a limit

I mean u surely don't need 2 motherships, 1 vortex is usually enough. 2 COULD be helpful so u can vortex more often but there is diminishing returns each mothership you add.
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
Altercate
Profile Joined December 2011
Sweden75 Posts
December 24 2011 23:29 GMT
#278
My vote is, I want hero units (or at least, I don't mind them) BUT only if they are executed to perfection. And I'm not sure StarCraft's core gameplay lends itself all that well to "hero units." Anyway, OP, it sounds to me like your beef is with vortex as such. Right? There's no reason to assume that the hero Thor would have access to any ability that presents a balance issue. After all, the Mothership also has Mass Recall, which people don't seem to think is broken.

I'm a Terran player but to be honest I like things the way they are now- I don't really want Thors to be hero units, and I don't want Blizzard to remove the Mothership. Mothership is awesome! The thing is, the Mothership DOES feel like it belongs in the StarCraft universe, because the Mothership represents the capital ship of a Protoss fleet which can logically be assumed to accompany any major Protoss expedition. The Thor (or "Odin") doesn't really make sense in the same way. If I had my way, I'd just have them do something about vortex, like fling all the trapped units back out onto the map as though tossed and scattered by a whirlwind! Place each unit in a random position within X range of the vortex point.
StarCraft II for Complete Beginners - youtube.com/user/AltercateSC
FlaminGinjaNinja
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Kingdom879 Posts
December 24 2011 23:43 GMT
#279
That TLDR is almost as long as your post!

I think hero units could work but honestly, what is Zerg going to get? They'd have to come up with a completely new unit which lets face it, they'll screw up completely.

I don't mind the mothership because it's rarely used even though vortex IMO is still too strong. I think the super Thor will be even worse, what's with the super splash strike cannon? Terran already have tanks for their siege lines. It's already difficult to deal with Terran mech in ZvT, this and the warhound are going to make it impossible
GinjaNinja.661 EU I'd like to thank my sh*t keyyboard for always messing up my 'Y's
ExorArgus
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada46 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-25 04:05:54
December 25 2011 03:52 GMT
#280
Ok i wasn't gonna post this but without the mothership. How does a protoss engage a brood/infestor/corrupter army? I would like to know. And "Don't let them get to that point is not a legitimate answer." Every game has their own unique situations and if this happens to come up. What do?
Some people tell me Protoss is OP, Zerg can have over 200 supply, terrans can have kill their SCV and use mules. I hate probes.
LimeNade
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2125 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-25 04:03:43
December 25 2011 03:57 GMT
#281
On December 25 2011 04:25 Balgrog wrote:
These are not hero units, please learn more about RTS's and Hero units to begin with!


i know what a hero unit is. Just because its not RPG style where u level up and can use ur little magical spells everytime u level up I know its harder for you to decipher what a hero unit is then as that would be pushing your brain capacity to the extreme to realize that not all hero units have to level up. If you can only make ONE of it at a time and only ONE of it can be on the field for a given player at a time then it is a HERO unit. And ive been playing RTS genre and more RTS games then you prob ever will so please take ur ignorance out of here and go troll somewhere else.
JD, need I say more? :D
LimeNade
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2125 Posts
December 25 2011 04:01 GMT
#282
On December 25 2011 07:06 XenoX101 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 25 2011 04:28 power-overwhelming wrote:
At least the OP was successful in creating a whine thread.

User was warned for this post


Don't know why you were warned, anyone who took the time to read the OP would see that it is more or less just a whine about the Mothership's vortex vs Zerg. If anything the OP should've been warned for posting that drivel.


Reading your post just shows down right how blatantly ignorant you are. Regardless of what you take from this post the point is the mothership is HERO UNIT I dont give a damn about the balance or the whining or w.e it is you think is being said. If you could read at a 2nd grade level maybe you'd scroll to the bottom of the post and realize I said all this already.

The HERO unit regardless of whatever the hell it is has no place in the starcraft universe. And if you realize you have made a mistake once and are taking out the mothership in the expansion WHY THE HELL are they putting another one in the expansion. Either make it so every race can have a hero unit or just get rid of them from the game completely. Or make it so u can make multiple motherships with less power per ship o wait that was arbiters Sc1.
JD, need I say more? :D
BurningSera
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Ireland19621 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-25 04:16:41
December 25 2011 04:15 GMT
#283
On December 24 2011 08:47 zhurai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2011 08:45 Noocta wrote:
Because Dustin like the idea.
He come from C&C, remember ?

if that's the case all the races should have some hero unit, not just one race.


exactly what he meant. lol

sorry about that but on a serious note, look at how ugly design of that zerg hero unit leviathan and compare that to the thor....

i have been saying for a long time the design team has some serious bias towards terran and treats protoss like a second race and zerg as the (sh!tty) gimmicky race, which is a common trait in all C&C games.
is 2017, stop being lame, fuck's sakes. 'Can't wait for the rise of the cakes and humanity's last stand tbqh.'
dcemuser
Profile Joined August 2010
United States3248 Posts
December 25 2011 04:21 GMT
#284
On December 24 2011 08:45 Noocta wrote:
Because Dustin like the idea.
He come from C&C, remember ?


BORIS HERE!

Tanya was the best hero though unless you count Yuri Prime.
kineSiS-
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Korea (South)1068 Posts
December 25 2011 04:30 GMT
#285
I would say all polls like this have at least convience bias, voluntary response bias, response bias and non-reponse bias...
LimeNade
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2125 Posts
December 25 2011 04:36 GMT
#286
On December 25 2011 13:30 kineSiS- wrote:
I would say all polls like this have at least convience bias, voluntary response bias, response bias and non-reponse bias...


yes thank you, am i supposed to like make polls for polls these days?
JD, need I say more? :D
Corrosive
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada3741 Posts
December 25 2011 04:37 GMT
#287
I don't understand this decision by blizzard to remove the mothership and replace it with the huge thor. I understand why you can only have 1 mothership, because it's... well... a mothership. but a "really big thor"? Why is it restricted to 1 thor only? It's just a factory building it right? It's not being teleported in from space.
Maruprime.
tdt
Profile Joined October 2010
United States3179 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-25 04:56:33
December 25 2011 04:46 GMT
#288
I like them. Thor would be cooler if it were more buff, harder hitting, and could only build one. Zerg should get a hero unit too like the Leviathan from shatter the sky SP.

Biggest flaws in SC2 are warp gates and inability to control space.

Controlling space is what I'd like to see the Heros do since only siege tanks do it in SC2 as of now and just barley with their nerfed damage profile. Mothership can do it but late.
MC for president
GnarlyArbitrage
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
575 Posts
December 25 2011 04:47 GMT
#289
I was a total fan of Total Annihilation, but when I played Supreme Commander and saw those "experimental" units, I just alt+f4 the fuck outta there. Fuck units like that, they KILL the game. If both Terran and Zerg had their own "hero", then you'd see them in EVERY game because of how fucking powerful they will be. All strategies will be derived from a "hero" unit. Doesn't take much skill to micro a few units, or just one, anyhow. Little strategy is needed, very little. Just attack with it.

I'm sure you could probably get an early game hero, or even mid game, either of which would absolutely rape the other player. "You thought you could go 2/2 and stim me? Here's a hero hydralisk that shoots banelings, go fuck yourself."

On a more serious note, I really don't like hero units. One unit shouldn't get so much attention.
Vilonis
Profile Joined October 2010
United States130 Posts
December 25 2011 04:49 GMT
#290
This has probably been said, but I don't want any hero units, and ESPECIALLY not each race to have one. If each race had one, and they were expected to build them, how many different late game compositions could there be? There would be one best composition for each race that revolved around their hero unit. And that's it. Which sounds boring as shit. I really don't mind the mothership as it is now. When pros build it in games, it is cool to watch , some pros (kiwikaki) have some cool strats (multi CC snipe with blink stalkers, recall out) that make rare games awesome. However, I'm not really looking forward to the Thor, though I don't know much about it.

I guess the hero units in a niche role can be cool, but they should never be good enough to define their race's late game composition, only add something to certain strategies.
"Such is the vastness of his genius that he can outwit even himself!" - Iskaral Pust, High Priest of High House Shadow
darkscream
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada2310 Posts
December 25 2011 04:54 GMT
#291
the original hero thor push with bad SCV targetting bugs was fucking retarded

this new one is going to be worse.. can you imagine someone 1basing to fusion core. Someone will, you know it.
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-26 16:06:26
December 26 2011 15:57 GMT
#292
This has probably been said, but I don't want any hero units, and ESPECIALLY not each race to have one. If each race had one, and they were expected to build them, how many different late game compositions could there be? There would be one best composition for each race that revolved around their hero unit. And that's it.


I don't understand at all. If you can only have one of the unit, then how would it change late game compositions? It would just be "Any Late Game Composition + Hero Unit," which isn't that different at all.

On December 25 2011 13:01 BloodThirsty wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 25 2011 07:06 XenoX101 wrote:
On December 25 2011 04:28 power-overwhelming wrote:
At least the OP was successful in creating a whine thread.

User was warned for this post


Don't know why you were warned, anyone who took the time to read the OP would see that it is more or less just a whine about the Mothership's vortex vs Zerg. If anything the OP should've been warned for posting that drivel.


Reading your post just shows down right how blatantly ignorant you are. Regardless of what you take from this post the point is the mothership is HERO UNIT I dont give a damn about the balance or the whining or w.e it is you think is being said. If you could read at a 2nd grade level maybe you'd scroll to the bottom of the post and realize I said all this already.

The HERO unit regardless of whatever the hell it is has no place in the starcraft universe. And if you realize you have made a mistake once and are taking out the mothership in the expansion WHY THE HELL are they putting another one in the expansion. Either make it so every race can have a hero unit or just get rid of them from the game completely. Or make it so u can make multiple motherships with less power per ship o wait that was arbiters Sc1.


So you say you don't give a damn about whining and then you proceed to whine in the entire next paragraph.

I just don't get it. So you can only have one of the unit. Why is that so incredibly terrible? Is the strategy in the game so incredibly degenerated by the fact that you can only have one? Why do you say it has no place in the starcraft universe? That's just an assertion, not an argument. Who the hell cares? What the hell is so wrong with a unit that you can only make one of?

And no, just because one race gets something doesn't mean that all the races have to have something equivalent. That goes completely against the uniqueness of the races. There is no equivalent to the sentry, for instance. That's fine! That's actually better than fine! It's awesome! It means that protoss plays like none of the other races.
Conti
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany2516 Posts
December 26 2011 16:10 GMT
#293
On December 25 2011 13:47 DigiGnar wrote:
All strategies will be derived from a "hero" unit. Doesn't take much skill to micro a few units, or just one, anyhow. Little strategy is needed, very little. Just attack with it.

Yes, that's precisely how the Mothership has been used so far. Right on! All strategies are derived from the Mothership. No skill at all involved in using it. No strategy. People build them and a-move into the enemy base. That's exactly how it's done these days, because it's a hero unit!

Oh, wait..
GnarlyArbitrage
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
575 Posts
December 28 2011 01:33 GMT
#294
On December 27 2011 01:10 Conti wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 25 2011 13:47 DigiGnar wrote:
All strategies will be derived from a "hero" unit. Doesn't take much skill to micro a few units, or just one, anyhow. Little strategy is needed, very little. Just attack with it.

Yes, that's precisely how the Mothership has been used so far. Right on! All strategies are derived from the Mothership. No skill at all involved in using it. No strategy. People build them and a-move into the enemy base. That's exactly how it's done these days, because it's a hero unit!

Oh, wait..



Well, you could vortex some units and then have a few archons rape the shit out of them... But that's not really strategical. That's common sense. Now, why would a protoss NOT build a mothership every game against zerg? Would there be a downfall to the archon toilet?
ZAiNs
Profile Joined July 2010
United Kingdom6525 Posts
December 28 2011 01:34 GMT
#295
On December 28 2011 10:33 DigiGnar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2011 01:10 Conti wrote:
On December 25 2011 13:47 DigiGnar wrote:
All strategies will be derived from a "hero" unit. Doesn't take much skill to micro a few units, or just one, anyhow. Little strategy is needed, very little. Just attack with it.

Yes, that's precisely how the Mothership has been used so far. Right on! All strategies are derived from the Mothership. No skill at all involved in using it. No strategy. People build them and a-move into the enemy base. That's exactly how it's done these days, because it's a hero unit!

Oh, wait..



Well, you could vortex some units and then have a few archons rape the shit out of them... But that's not really strategical. That's common sense. Now, why would a protoss NOT build a mothership every game against zerg? Would there be a downfall to the archon toilet?

Surely all pro Protoss players are terrible because they don't make Motherships every PvZ!
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
December 28 2011 01:57 GMT
#296
On December 28 2011 10:33 DigiGnar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 27 2011 01:10 Conti wrote:
On December 25 2011 13:47 DigiGnar wrote:
All strategies will be derived from a "hero" unit. Doesn't take much skill to micro a few units, or just one, anyhow. Little strategy is needed, very little. Just attack with it.

Yes, that's precisely how the Mothership has been used so far. Right on! All strategies are derived from the Mothership. No skill at all involved in using it. No strategy. People build them and a-move into the enemy base. That's exactly how it's done these days, because it's a hero unit!

Oh, wait..



Well, you could vortex some units and then have a few archons rape the shit out of them... But that's not really strategical. That's common sense. Now, why would a protoss NOT build a mothership every game against zerg? Would there be a downfall to the archon toilet?

Yeah and why would a zerg not ever just rush broodlords/corruptor/infestor?
Wait? There is gamplay involved in this game? You need to survive until you have high tech? You need something to protect those units? 6workers are not enough to go high tech? you can spread units? archon/MS is also expensive? You can avoid fighting slow units and use your brain to figure out a strategy that abuses their immobility if you dont know how to straig
up fight them? weird how this game works out so wonderfully the way it is, isnt it?
And btw Im master zerg...
GnarlyArbitrage
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
575 Posts
December 28 2011 02:08 GMT
#297
We're talking hero units, not a rush. Now, again, what's the downfall, or counter, to the archon toilet? Again, read "strategies derived from hero units" in one of my earlier posts. Obviously, a strategy that incorporates a hero unit should be able to protect that unit, right?
NipponBanzai
Profile Joined September 2011
Canada518 Posts
December 28 2011 02:15 GMT
#298
Honestly, as a terran, I dont want the hero thor. Give me mass fucking recall to my CC. Give me the fucking viper. One slow big ass unit is not what I want.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
December 28 2011 02:22 GMT
#299
On December 28 2011 11:08 DigiGnar wrote:
We're talking hero units, not a rush. Now, again, what's the downfall, or counter, to the archon toilet? Again, read "strategies derived from hero units" in one of my earlier posts. Obviously, a strategy that incorporates a hero unit should be able to protect that unit, right?


Spread your broodlords and siege him patiently, he has to come to you to attack the broods.
Or dont engage a MS.
Or dont let him get there.
or try to set u up in a position in which you are able to combat it costinefficiently.
Or abuse the toilet with banelings (not sure if it still works)
Or prevent the archons from entering the toilet with fungals.

So many ways to deal with a MS at the time it comes out...
Meteora.GB
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada2479 Posts
December 28 2011 02:26 GMT
#300
Don't particularly like the hero units in SC2; doesn't really fit with the game. When I think about hero units I think about C&C and WC3. But SC2 at most it should be a super unit like a capital ship, such as the Battlecruiser/Carrier.
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