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Psych approach to ladder anxiety - Page 8

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 6 7 8 9 10 19 Next All
Yergidy
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2107 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-28 09:25:53
December 28 2011 09:25 GMT
#141
Awesome read, very interesting! Thanks for taking the time to write it up!
One bright day in the middle of the night, Two dead boys got up to fight; Back to back they faced each other, Drew their swords and shot each other.
Croaker
Profile Joined December 2011
United States101 Posts
December 28 2011 09:38 GMT
#142
On December 22 2011 04:33 Mohdoo wrote:
Anyone else feel like this should be featured maybe? :x


I second the motion.
In the game of drones, roaches are coming - Artosis
Loonish
Profile Joined March 2011
United States7 Posts
December 28 2011 09:48 GMT
#143
Fantastic read. Deserves a feature on the front page if you ask me.
Sylkvass
Profile Joined August 2009
Norway29 Posts
December 28 2011 10:02 GMT
#144
Damn im getting ladder anxiety from reading the first post:-\
Corrosive
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada3741 Posts
December 28 2011 10:13 GMT
#145
I used to get ladder anxiety really bad to the point where i couldn't play more than 2-3 games, especially if i won all of them. I would get really shaky. But, for me it was worse in sc1, because i would join a game and not really know how good someone was. (i never played on iccup, i didn't know about it till i started following sc2 and really getting into the scene)
Maruprime.
B.I.G.
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
3251 Posts
December 28 2011 10:23 GMT
#146
i used to have ladder anxiety as well, until i changed my mindset. i started taking ladder less serious playing random and even dropping down to plat league, but boy was it a lot more fun then grinding ladder as toss, always close to masters but never quite there. nowadays i play terr and toss for fun and got to the same ranking with both races as when i was playing so serious LOL.
Scorm
Profile Joined April 2011
United States104 Posts
December 29 2011 06:57 GMT
#147
This was an excellent read. Thank you for posting this.
“It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful.” -Anton LaVey
Tendou
Profile Joined November 2010
United States54 Posts
January 02 2012 17:37 GMT
#148
awesome read man!
It was a mistake to try to make you feel it again, I see that now.
dearyuna
Profile Joined December 2011
United States322 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-02 18:29:45
January 02 2012 18:27 GMT
#149
As a fellow psych major, I find this an extremely interesting read. However, I would also like to add onto this and raise up some new areas of discussion on this topic.
First of all, from a CBT perspective, you're spot-on. MMA (link) talked about the method to his madness in his post GSL win interview. He said multiple times that the key was to stay calm and focused; freaking out just threw off his focus. He also emphasized the importance of a solid support system (in his case, in the form of Team SlayerS.)

Your article is very good for the casual or independent gamer, but I would just like to throw another point of perspective out there. As all psychology majors know, there's also a strong cross-cultural difference in motivation. Many of the interviews that I've read of pro-starcraft players always emphasize the need to achieve more and to appease their audience. It was just really interesting to see this difference even within your post. For example, the thread starter posted:

+ Show Spoiler +
On December 22 2011 03:47 partysnatcher wrote:

Remove unrealistic appraisals
As mentioned above, if the outcome of playing a ladder game is uncertain, appraisals can create emotions from a hypothetical, extrapolated situation and create an "appraisal of doom" that will keep generating fear in your brain. The cure here is quite simple - take some time to think realistically about what could happen after a loss.

"What's the worst that could happen?". Will I be demoted? Will my opponent mock me when I am most vulnerable? Etc. This is the time to be cold and realistic, and use statistics and facts.



A lot of people often wonder how Starcraft 2 Korean players achieve a level of ability often believe to be impossible. The questions that they ask themselves not only revolve around themselves, but around other people. For example, a serious starcraft player on a professional team in Korea may think "How disappointed will ______ be in me? fans/family/friends/team." Thus, I feel like Korean gamers set standards for themselves that are almost-to-the-point-of-ridiculousness-ly high. Unlike many other individuals in different cultures, a lot of East Asians are more open to criticism and are definitely critical of themselves. I know I'm also overgeneralizing, but many Korean students think in the same fashion when studying. In addition, their definition of "high-stress levels" can also differ.

I totally agree with partysnatcher posted; you definitely learn a lot more from when you lose than when you win. I just thought this might be a good side-insight from a different perspective
@dearyuna Team SCV Life <3
Logan_ps
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
United Kingdom118 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-03 00:55:00
January 02 2012 23:24 GMT
#150
So grateful for this. I have chronic ladder anxiety - which sucks, since I also love the game and love playing it.
Happa
Profile Joined January 2012
Russian Federation6 Posts
January 03 2012 01:47 GMT
#151
Man, i even registered @ TL.net to say that u did so awesome work. this is useful even for masters/gml surely. gj
Saint-Petersburg
llKenZyll
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States853 Posts
January 03 2012 02:36 GMT
#152
Wow that post was really insightful. I had no idea that ladder anxiety was that complicated and that it had to do with chemicals and psychology in the human brain. Very good read, you are very explaining.
However it seems weird that some people get ladder anxiety, it seems like such a simple thing to fix. I had it a long time ago for season 2 and I fixed it by just searching for games. I forced myself to click Find Match and I didn't even think about what the consequences would be if I lost. So yeah, I am sure this post is pretty much true as I have done what you told me to do in order to fix it before I read this thread, and it worked.
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/nd6nd/tang_in_his_natural_habitat/
KimJongChill
Profile Joined January 2011
United States6429 Posts
January 03 2012 02:44 GMT
#153
This is an amazing analysis of ladder anxiety, well informed and well written. Now that I think about it, I experience anxiety most frequently after I haven't played for a while, or when I need to do a 1v1 placement. I think the idea of attaching self-worth to leagues and ranks really does go a long way in explaining the stresses of the game. The best thing I do to ameliorate my anxiety is to view each game as a learning opportunity. If the focus is self-improvement, rather than winning or promotions, then it becomes much easier to accept losses, and to even view them in a slightly positive light.
MMA: U realise MMA: Most of my army EgIdra: fuck off MMA: Killed my orbital MMA: LOL MMA: just saying MMA: u werent loss
nonsence
Profile Joined July 2010
United States57 Posts
January 03 2012 06:48 GMT
#154
Very helpful! Spotlight!
OMG Bear is driving! How is that possible?
partysnatcher
Profile Joined August 2010
156 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-03 17:21:33
January 03 2012 17:19 GMT
#155
On January 03 2012 03:27 dearyuna wrote:
As a fellow psych major, I find this an extremely interesting read. However, I would also like to add onto this and raise up some new areas of discussion on this topic.
First of all, from a CBT perspective, you're spot-on. MMA (link) talked about the method to his madness in his post GSL win interview. He said multiple times that the key was to stay calm and focused; freaking out just threw off his focus. He also emphasized the importance of a solid support system (in his case, in the form of Team SlayerS.)

Your article is very good for the casual or independent gamer, but I would just like to throw another point of perspective out there. As all psychology majors know, there's also a strong cross-cultural difference in motivation. Many of the interviews that I've read of pro-starcraft players always emphasize the need to achieve more and to appease their audience. It was just really interesting to see this difference even within your post. For example, the thread starter posted:

+ Show Spoiler +
On December 22 2011 03:47 partysnatcher wrote:

Remove unrealistic appraisals
As mentioned above, if the outcome of playing a ladder game is uncertain, appraisals can create emotions from a hypothetical, extrapolated situation and create an "appraisal of doom" that will keep generating fear in your brain. The cure here is quite simple - take some time to think realistically about what could happen after a loss.

"What's the worst that could happen?". Will I be demoted? Will my opponent mock me when I am most vulnerable? Etc. This is the time to be cold and realistic, and use statistics and facts.



A lot of people often wonder how Starcraft 2 Korean players achieve a level of ability often believe to be impossible. The questions that they ask themselves not only revolve around themselves, but around other people. For example, a serious starcraft player on a professional team in Korea may think "How disappointed will ______ be in me? fans/family/friends/team." Thus, I feel like Korean gamers set standards for themselves that are almost-to-the-point-of-ridiculousness-ly high. Unlike many other individuals in different cultures, a lot of East Asians are more open to criticism and are definitely critical of themselves. I know I'm also overgeneralizing, but many Korean students think in the same fashion when studying. In addition, their definition of "high-stress levels" can also differ.

I totally agree with partysnatcher posted; you definitely learn a lot more from when you lose than when you win. I just thought this might be a good side-insight from a different perspective


Absolutely. Like you say, "collectivistic" cultures usually approach performance and motivation quite differently. As someone who has been taught by a Chinese teacher, I know that many Chinese are not that fond of praise and good emotions as motivation. People from similar types of training regimes, using motivation like you describe, could be well used to performing with adrenaline! And also, the situations causing anxiety could be quite different. Is ladder anxiety even an issue in Korea?

It does seem korean players like, for instance, Liquid`Hero, can have performance issues "when it counts". Hero generally had a higher heart rate than his opponents when measured live, and often does worse in tournaments than on ladder. If that phenomenon is caused by fear, what causes that fear?

Thanks for a very interesting second angle on the phenomenon!
idonthinksobro
Profile Joined December 2010
3138 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-03 17:51:25
January 03 2012 17:44 GMT
#156
i probably fit into this category - i played a lot and i played zerg so that means losing to stupid allins felt like some random noob punches you in the face. I sometimes felt so bad for losing even tho i was ranked decent (high diamond before masters was introduced).

After playing only zerg i started playing random and allin with protoss and terran a lot - and i won so many games against way better opponents that i felt all the time i played zerg was just wasted time. And at some i point i just felt exhausted - playing 1 hour sc2 was like running a marathon. So i reduced my playtime from like 6-7h a day to 1h till i stopped playing 1v1s.

So i started playing more casually 2v2 / 3v3 / 4v4 etc. but after some time that was just boring and i tried to get into 1v1s again but i felt that i got a lot worse and could only achieve diamond (right after masters was introduced) so i stopped playing sc2 and didnt even load up the game anymore i didnt play in the last ~5? months now.

/E i also never really had fun playing sc2 it was kinda a competitve game and i only played to win and to improve. I took it quite serious and playing sc2 was rather stressful and not enjoyable.
newron
Profile Joined December 2011
13 Posts
January 03 2012 18:43 GMT
#157
First of all, I want to say the OP has made a fantastic post, and I agree with all the theory behind it. However, I'd like to offer a more action-based solution (which still follows the cognitive-behavioral theories presented by the OP).

I have found that the best way (for me) to overcome debilitating ladder fear is by not just redefining (in one's head) what it means to lose and what one's expectations should be, but to actually act out - strictly - those new definitions. Let me be more concrete. I was able to overcome ladder fear by deciding that I would not try to win games. Rather, I would try to improve some feature of my game every time I played (such as micro, always making workers, general macro, speed, ability to play aggressively, etc. - really it can be anything you want to improve).

Let's take the example of always making workers. In game, if I noticed that I failed to meet my goal of making workers frequently enough, then I lost. Therefore, I would abruptly GG out of the game. According to my rule, I had lost - it had nothing to do with whether or not I was able to defeat my opponent.

After doing this over and over, not only will your skill skyrocket, but you will find that laddering is much less scary. After all, all this time, you've been quitting games according to your own criteria, independent of the other player. What's to fear, really?

Everyone has to find their own solution to ladder anxiety. I suggest others to try this out.
s[O]rry
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
Canada398 Posts
January 03 2012 19:05 GMT
#158
I really enjoyed reading this. I think it will actually help me loads in the coming weeks of ladder :D
Sunshine.
Jakalo
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Latvia2350 Posts
January 03 2012 19:24 GMT
#159
Good read, thanks for taking time to write this
Nostalgia is not as good as it used to be.
BenKen
Profile Joined August 2009
United States860 Posts
January 03 2012 19:42 GMT
#160
On January 04 2012 03:43 newron wrote:
First of all, I want to say the OP has made a fantastic post, and I agree with all the theory behind it. However, I'd like to offer a more action-based solution (which still follows the cognitive-behavioral theories presented by the OP).

I have found that the best way (for me) to overcome debilitating ladder fear is by not just redefining (in one's head) what it means to lose and what one's expectations should be, but to actually act out - strictly - those new definitions. Let me be more concrete. I was able to overcome ladder fear by deciding that I would not try to win games. Rather, I would try to improve some feature of my game every time I played (such as micro, always making workers, general macro, speed, ability to play aggressively, etc. - really it can be anything you want to improve).

Let's take the example of always making workers. In game, if I noticed that I failed to meet my goal of making workers frequently enough, then I lost. Therefore, I would abruptly GG out of the game. According to my rule, I had lost - it had nothing to do with whether or not I was able to defeat my opponent.

After doing this over and over, not only will your skill skyrocket, but you will find that laddering is much less scary. After all, all this time, you've been quitting games according to your own criteria, independent of the other player. What's to fear, really?

Everyone has to find their own solution to ladder anxiety. I suggest others to try this out.

I kind of do something similar to get over ladder anxiety, but not as extreme as quitting outright. I just make the focus of each game something like "I am going to do this build against x flawlessly" or "I will use all of my chrono no matter what". If I fail my goal, i still play it out but look for places to be sharper in the replay right afterwards.

Really though, I've found that it kind of breaks down like this:

You will have ladder fear if you focus on winning at all costs.

You will have much less ladder fear if you accept your true current skill (as OP states) make each game focused on a) improving specifics and b) learning what will work and won't work.

Also, if I have the game loaded, I tell myself "stop being a pussy" and click find game as fast as I can so I can't psyche my self out lol.
I deadlift for Aiur
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