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On December 22 2011 08:55 docvoc wrote:
Great job, though the Schachter and Singer experiment was a bit crack since they did it poorly. Anyways, i should have done something like this with my background because this was an amazing read. I especially like you using the appraisal theory since a lot of people don't know about it and how it really does affect most of SC2. One critique would be for you to talk about general management of losses when it comes to loss streaks since that really does hurt the ego. Finally it was very smart of you to talk about how and why SC2 tends to be so full on and why its less casual for most than LoL or CS:S/1.6. GJ dude
Thanks!  I don't recall all the critiques against Schachter-Singer, but these affect-attribution experiments have been repeated with much success in the last 50 years, and S-S seems to be included among supporting / pioneering evidence in current affect research.
I completely agree that losing and how that changes people is very interesting for gaming, but I guess I would have to go outside the "ladder anxiety"-scope.
Can I ask what your background is? I don't doubt your credentials, but you piqued my curiosity!
On December 22 2011 13:07 stokes17 wrote:
you gave a large discussion of appraisals to describe what is basically a Jonah Complex, doubting one's own abilities and competency, or fear of failure.
Ladder anxiety=fear of failure
I agree completely that focus on mastery / redefining what failure is, to reduce your fear of failure, should be part of a "ladder anxiety" therapy. I tried to cover that through "current skill". For me, it seems to be people's too high expectations of "current skill" that result in a too strict perception of what failure is. (one loss = failure)
But there are also, in my opinion, other appraisal factors at work here that don't need "fear of failure":
1) fear of adrenaline
2) misappraising the effect of an SC2-loss on their ego / social status
3) misappraising the social situation of 1v1 as an aggression/threat situation (ref Mr. Black's post about good manners having a calming effect).
On December 22 2011 13:15 Synwave wrote:
Are people really replying to this with "great science" and "really good to see a scientific approach" to this?
This isn't science. Common sense perhaps and certainly observationally biased, but science?
I agree. This is an advice article based on my knowledge of SC2/gaming and cognitive/behavioral therapy. Although the methods and theories behind it have a fairly solid scientific basis, the OP article would not hold up as a formal psychology article, it lacks citations and empirical evidence on how this applies to SC2. It's a bit more like a "self-help" article, so take it for what it is.
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Good read! I'll link this to a friend of mine who refuses to 1v1 ladder because of anxiety.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
Finally not a bullshit anxiety thread. Well done sir, this thread will hopefully stop this kind of threads because it really explains it all. Really good write up.
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i really like it! It's great to read explanations on what's happening in our bodies when we play in hopes of controlling it or at least understanding it!
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Learn from White-Ra and your ladder experience will be so much better!!!
OT: It looks solid for those in need.
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On December 22 2011 04:23 FADCoUltra wrote:
Great write up. I suffer from Ladder Anxiety a lot. Like many people described, just really have to pull out every last bit of will power to click that "Find Game" button.
I'm doing a lot better now that I convinced myself to practice new builds on ladder instead of AI, and don't take losses that serious anymore.
But know I have a problem where as soon as I win a game, I don't want to play anymore so I can keep the up feeling from the win and not feel the downs from another loss. It seriously cuts into my game count. Trying to force myself to play a certain number of game a day, no matter win or lose. But still, as soon as I won a game, could be my very first game in a day, I just feel like quit on the high note.
Edit: I actually don't feel too discourage about losing now. It's just immediately feel like stopping after I won a game. Anyone else experiencing this as well?
I got the same, if I lose I must keep playing. Cuz no matter what, I have to end the day with a win! When I finally have that win, I'm satisfied and stop.
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I know you didn't ask me, but S-S emotion theory has some problems. Of course everything is criticized but there are some pretty big questions raised for this theory in particular. Might be newer evidence but the shaky evidence was also something I heard from my professor. "Reducing fear by knowing about adrenaline" (aren't there more factors there?) wasn't replicated but few studies like this has been done.
That said I think it's a smart move to consider feedback from arousal in the experience of emotion, and that there is a relationship between bodily changes, appraisal and emotion is clear. Also being informed about what bodily changes to expect and how to deal with it could very well be effective anyway and it's quite different from a list of side effects in an experimental setting.
http://www-alt.uni-greifswald.de/~psycho/allge2/Reisenzein/Publications/Reisenzein1983_Schachter_Theory.pdf
Also I like the book "Understanding Emotions".
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Hi partysnatcher. I want to ask one thing. Does any kind of or certain type of music reduce ladder anxiety? Im certainly 1 of tons ppl who suffer ladder anxiety.
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On December 22 2011 22:52 Sablar wrote:I know you didn't ask me, but S-S emotion theory has some problems. Of course everything is criticized but there are some pretty big questions raised for this theory in particular. Might be newer evidence but the shaky evidence was also something I heard from my professor. "Reducing fear by knowing about adrenaline" (aren't there more factors there?) wasn't replicated but few studies like this has been done. That said I think it's a smart move to consider feedback from arousal in the experience of emotion, and that there is a relationship between bodily changes, appraisal and emotion is clear. Also being informed about what bodily changes to expect and how to deal with it could very well be effective anyway and it's quite different from a list of side effects in an experimental setting. http://www-alt.uni-greifswald.de/~psycho/allge2/Reisenzein/Publications/Reisenzein1983_Schachter_Theory.pdfAlso I like the book "Understanding Emotions".
Thanks for the input and reading material!
Schachter-Singers theory wasn't so relevant for my example, just their experiment (your Reisenzein-article seems to approve the causality I implied, but disapprove of other aspects). I based myself on modern affect research, where there are many other examples of how re-attribution change our feelings, like Clore & Schwarz' (1983) rainy day experiment. I picked S-S because of their use of epinephrine/adrenaline, which applies more to SC2.
This aside, my impression is that adrenaline in general is a bit difficult for someone sitting in a chair in front of a PC, to make sense of, and I think the sensation of just "waiting" fixed in front of a screen with adrenaline pumping, for many, is scary in itself. So I think whether we "think we fear" (S-S, Lazarus etc) or whether adrenaline is just a bit too intense on it's own, nevertheless it is helpful to understand where adrenaline is coming from and what it is doing, and to promote habituation rather than sensitization to adrenaline.
Some notes on Reisenzeins 1983 article vs modern affect theory;
Reisenzein here has issues with S-S' labeling concept and says there is no evidence that a calm body will make fear impossible. Modern affect theory agrees and disagrees. The "labeling" of S-S would be called "attribution", so that is still considered valid. As for calm body inhibiting fear, LeDoux has suggested a dual route interactive system where both excitation and inhibition of emotion can be elicited from several levels (PNS, conditioning and cognition). In other words, the fear-quelching phenomenon in S-S theory could apply for certain scenarios, but the demand of body+cognition is not valid.
Thanks for a good post!
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wow sc2 has become serious business with all these hardcore threads.
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On December 23 2011 00:57 Raana wrote:
Hi partysnatcher. I want to ask one thing. Does any kind of or certain type of music reduce ladder anxiety? Im certainly 1 of tons ppl who suffer ladder anxiety.
Different music does different stuff to different people. Energetic music, soothing music, humorous music and very familiar, "safe" music could all have beneficial effects. Experiment. Try different music out and feel if the different styles affect you, rate their soothing affect on your anxiety from 1-10.
Experiments in general are good just by being experiments, they let you study your own problem "from the outside" and will give you a feeling of control.
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Yea, this write up was fabulous. I always see the damn "ladder anxiety hurting E-sports" thread and usually just see people present problems, this post finally is proposing some easy and effective anxiety reducing techniques and describes why we feel the pressure we do, again, great write up.
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I really liked that write up. It exactly depicts what I used to get when I played ladder. I've never got sweaty palms but instead I've got really cold hands, even when it's relatively warm in the area around me.
I've got good at dealing with the adrenaline aspect. I used to get quick pumped up for my first couple games then completely burn out after that but now I can play at the same level of energy for each game. I also normally work out before I play in the morning so that deals with a lot of the adrenaline stuff. I play way better after I exercise; my mind feels clearer and my hands feel better for control, which when I'm not fully awake I play way slower and less precise.
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Things work way different for me. I fear the ladder because when I start hitting up on the ladder, the fear of losing pumps me up so much that I can't stop playing till I start losing focus. (10~20 games later...) Any idea what is this?
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On December 22 2011 04:19 kenkou wrote:
One thing about the adrenaline that bothers me ALOT is my hands and feet getting ridiculously cold. I know its a bodily instinct to the rush, but will it ever go away if you can control adrenaline? I've been researching on ways to keep those parts of my body warm during/after games, but i'm still stumped. I really hope that whenever I can get my adrenaline under control, that it will fix itself.
Do a few pushups or squeeze something real hard. You feel cold because less blood gets to the extremeties, so counter it by getting it flowing again.
ETA; Make sure you breath properly. Sounds silly but you'd be surprised at how shallow you're breath can get when you're anxious.
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It's unfortunate that people can't sit down and play a computer game without getting anxious. It's almost as if their entire perspectives or grounding in reality have been severed. Life can be difficult and stressful- managing relationships, pressure to do well in school, job related stress, financial stress for many. It blows my mind that someone can sit down and play a video game and experience anger, frustration, fear, anxiety, and other emotions that really don't have any place in a frivolous hobby.
I can't tell you to stop being childish, but if you really want to face your fear- purposely lose the next 10 or 15 games. Just fire em up and instantly quit. Or (and i've done this because I get a kick out my opponents' reactions), play out a game for 30 minutes. Let yourself become invested in the outcome. And, if you are about to win, leave the game.
The ladder system is meaningless and is only there to find you evenly matched opponents and make the game more FUN! Frankly, if you only enjoy starcraft when you are winning or suffer from very negative emotions when you lose, find another hobby.
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On December 23 2011 02:13 HaruRH wrote:
Things work way different for me. I fear the ladder because when I start hitting up on the ladder, the fear of losing pumps me up so much that I can't stop playing till I start losing focus. (10~20 games later...) Any idea what is this?
Misplaced emotions? Video game addiction? Honestly, it's not good.
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I don't have ladder fear on SC2 but on SCBW when I was playing iCCup I would always start almost every account with scores like 40-0/50-0 and after a certain point I just lost the will to play cause I was afraid of getting the first loss. I would not play for a couple of days for that reason even though I felt I needed to practice and understood it was totally stupid and superficial. Usually after the second loss I started to loosen up and didn't care about playing and losing many more, but the part between getting into a game while I had no losses and the moment I finally got my second loss was really troublesome, cause it made me feel proud but at the same time I was scared to lose what made me so proud. That's the only occasion where I wouldn't want to ladder but I remember clearly how much it held me back and how big of a problem it was at the time when I was still an unexperienced player. I can imagine new players winning a tournament game or a ladder game against a very good player and being afraid on going ahead cause they are afraid they might lose to the next noob again, nullifying the good result they got.
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I dont feel any fear/stress playing ladder, In online cups a little in Bo1 phases. I got bad habit of playing a lot of games when Im in looser streak so sometime I can get 0-10.
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EPT
