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On July 28 2012 08:47 Karawasa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 06:24 IFF wrote:
I have the solution to not being "psyched out" in a freakin video game: STOP BEING A PUSSY. GG. While the OP was an interesting read...this is all that really needed to be said. It's a video game guys. If you're getting debilitating anxiety then you either are taking it way too seriously or you have some mental health issues. Everything must be put in the perspective of results. If you lose in a video game...what happens? Nothing.
Why are you even writing in this thread IFF? "STOP BEING A PUSSYGG."
Is that what you would like to tell pro gamers before big tournies? Starcraft 2 isn't a video game. What do you play? PS3? Xbox? Sc2 is a PC game in case you didn't notice. Or perhaps you like to insult ppl without understanding what you are writing? No respect for the OP at all....or for the ppl that have ladder anxiety.I'm surprised that didn't receive a warning.
"Everything must be put in the perspective of results". Well anxiety which is an irrational emotion is not rational, so your advice simply fortifies that you don't understand the ABC of anxiety (of any kind). I worry for you. In fact for a person having anxiety attacks of any kind, focusing on the result (I assume you mean win or lose?) is a really bad idea (will cause more anxiety). If what you meant is perspective (as in cmon guys this is just a video game) then again perspective is something that is created in the rational mind, a mental thing, which emotions can't relate to directly.
So what is helpful is to try and bridge the gap between rational mind and emotions which introduces some interesting techniques to reduce anxiety whose scope goes far beyond "video games" and can be applied to any performance/competitive arena.
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United States58 Posts
On July 29 2012 16:09 SoniC_eu wrote:
Is that what you would like to tell pro gamers before big tournies? Starcraft 2 isn't a video game. What do you play? PS3? Xbox? Sc2 is a PC game in case you didn't notice. Or perhaps you like to insult ppl without understanding what you are writing? No respect for the OP at all....or for the ppl that have ladder anxiety.I'm surprised that didn't receive a warning.
Most people are not pro gamers. I wouldn't tell a pro gamer that because money is on the line. Tell me though, what does the average joe with ladder anxiety have to lose except a few inches off his e-penis?
On July 29 2012 16:09 SoniC_eu wrote:
Well anxiety which is an irrational emotion is not rational, so your advice simply fortifies that you don't understand the ABC of anxiety (of any kind). I worry for you.
I worry for you for worrying about me. But seriously, you are wrong. Anxiety is not an irrational emotion. Anxiety is just like any other emotion. If the underlying cause is irrational than it too is irrational. Otherwise, it is perfectly rational.
On July 29 2012 16:09 SoniC_eu wrote:
If what you meant is perspective (as in cmon guys this is just a video game) then again perspective is something that is created in the rational mind, a mental thing, which emotions can't relate to directly.
So what is helpful is to try and bridge the gap between rational mind and emotions which introduces some interesting techniques to reduce anxiety whose scope goes far beyond "video games" and can be applied to any performance/competitive arena.
You are creating a false gap. Perspective has a direct impact on emotion...and emotion has a direct impact on perspective.
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Average joe could be a friend of urs...if your friend had anxiety of any kind, would you tell him to "man up" (whatever message that it implies there) or actually try and understand and help him?
As for the anxiety argument well, as I have had courses in uni, in this area I can explain the definitions. If the underlying cause is rational it's called fear. If the underlying reason is more abstract or irrational it's called anxiety. You can look it up if you want, or you can just read what I write: Fear is a rational emotion (think fight or flight, adrenaline etc) in response to a harmful stimuli and is indeed quite healthy and natural response. Anxiety is a more abstract emotion that CAN be caused by something entirely irrational. That is the difference. Anxiety can have a base in something that doesn't actually signify any harm to the organism. So in fact I wasn't wrong, and if I was I would be the first to admit it. It's ok, you have nothing to lose except a few inches of your e-penis.
False gap? Well your mind and emotions aren't one and the same so obviously there exists a duality there. Obviously perspective affects emotions and vice versa (that's just a fact), and that wasn't my point at all. My point was that the rational mind and emotions should operate in a healthy fashion ie. not create negative feedback loops.
Sad to see this topic get derailed :-/ Such an awesome write up...I just re-read it again. Props to the author.
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On July 28 2012 08:47 Karawasa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 06:24 IFF wrote:
I have the solution to not being "psyched out" in a freakin video game: STOP BEING A PUSSY. GG. While the OP was an interesting read...this is all that really needed to be said. It's a video game guys. If you're getting debilitating anxiety then you either are taking it way too seriously or you have some mental health issues. Everything must be put in the perspective of results. If you lose in a video game...what happens? Nothing.
I think you're failing to take into aspect everything that was actually in the original post. Just because people have ladder anxiety doesn't mean they don't enjoy playing SC2. They have a hard time getting started and their ego is connected to their rank on the ladder(yes, some people are wired that way) because of a few potential losses. Wouldn't that suck to just have a shitty day and still decide to play even though you're actually going to play terribly and drop a 100 points or in some cases get a demotion?
You can't just tell someone "If you're way too serious about something, then you should just quit and do something else"
With everyone having that attitude we'd have pretty shitty olympians bouncing about on TV right now.
I also understand that this phenomenon is just something you have or you don't and the ones who don't are for the most part assholes about it to the ones who do. Try and respect it/ignore it instead of calling people mentally unstable.
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You are in psychology and it shows! Great article, I didn't even know I had adrenaline rushing before every game and wasn't afraid of laddering but I think I have been letting the rush confuse me. (I thought I was just getting really queasy all of a sudden, it's the same feeling I get when I see blood so that's interesting too) This is awesome, I can embrace it now! And I did notice I got really shaky and thought it was messing me up- translate started building fear/nervousness.
For one who didn't struggle until after starting a game, I am surprised a ladder fear thread helped so much. Thanks again!
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First of all, great post. Congratulations.
I too suffer from anxiety. And it is so great that I find it difficult to play (or draw, or do any other thing that i like that is based on my skill) even by myself on yabot. It's a shame there are people who don't even try to understand those difficulties of others and suggest things like "just man up".
Dealing with unrealistic expectations
I personally know several people who just stopped playing based on not wanting to get demoted. Others keep their unrealistic placements alive by cheesing, and some play only when they are at 130% performance, staying alive by overperforming every time. These people would rather keep an “undeserved” gold league placement, than to give up their fantasy - their over-estimatated perception of skill.
This describes perfectly what I feel: I have this image on my mind that i should be good, since I like and know so much from the game. So I get afraid to play because I'll become frustrated if I don't live by my expectations.
This is horrible. And it affects me not only in SC2. As I mentioned, i like to draw, but I get blocked the same way. I put too much expectation, and don't do a thing for fear of getting frustrated.
"Just do it" is quite simple, and on its own way, correct. However, it is simple and correct for the rational mind. I know I should just do it, but "something" (the irrational part of my mind) prevents me from "just doing it".
I'll try your suggestions OP. And thanks for this post.
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Very interesting. I play alot of wc3 still, and i used to have alot of ladder anxiety there. I have learned how to just enjoy playing games though (ofc i also play(ed) BW and sc2). But alot of the tips you gave are actually the ones that have worked out for me while getting rid of that anxiety. If you had only entered my life sooner.. oh how many more ladder games i would've been able to geek through. This was a very good read! And oh, best of luck with that degree!
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I find that turning down the sound or even turning it off helps to calm me down by a huge amount!
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I never suffered from ladder anxiety, but what I once told a friend (who did suffer from it) 'cured' his ladder anxiety. I said 'don't do it [talking about 1v1 ladder], what if you lose?'
It really put things into perspective I guess.
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fantastic thread OP. i honestly had a LOT more fun during the beta when everyone was trying to be creative and i didnt give two shits about my league. after release though i tried to get "serious" and every time i come back to sc2 after a break im super worried about playing poorly and getting demoted. i'm really going to take your post to heart and try to enjoy myself a little more and from there i can play more ladder matches 
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Blizzard should have the public test server up at all times. There people could pratice on ladder.
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This is perfect. I have such intense ladder anxiety... and I do get ladder-rage when my team mates mess up in 2v2.
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It actually kind of worries me that people even have this problem. TL kind of makes it seem like every player ever gets ladder anxiety and can't play those games. At what point in any other game ever made does ladder or even multiplayer anxiety become a big deal? What about starcraft makes it ok, and normal, to invest that much (personally, as in, not just as a hobby or interest) into something so trivial?
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For those with ladder anxiety, are you generally an anxious person when you go to social outings, try new experiences, travel, etc...?
Exposure really is the best way to deal. I have a bud who had pretty bad ladder anxiety. In this case, there are only two options- stop playing the game (which can be hard in itself because many sc2 gamers are addicted), or expose yourself to losing... repeatedly.
He decided he didn't want to give up sc2, so I went on his comp and auto quit several games in a row. Then I forced him to play with the rule whether he was about to win or his opponent was about to win, he would quit and MUST gg (this is also important because it forces you to deal with anger and other negative feelings the game brings on.
If you don't deal with ladder anxiety on your own, you should really seek professional help because that anxiety will carry over to other, much more important aspects of your life.
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december 2011? why have i never seen this before???
"appraisals... OF DOOM"
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[QUOTE]On August 01 2012 09:21 prOpSaiton wrote:
[QUOTE]On July 28 2012 08:47 Karawasa wrote:
[QUOTE]On June 27 2012 06:24 IFF wrote:
I have the solution to not being "psyched out" in a freakin video game: STOP BEING A PUSSY. GG.[/QUOTE]
You can't just tell someone "If you're way too serious about something, then you should just quit and do something else"
With everyone having that attitude we'd have pretty shitty olympians bouncing about on TV right now.
I also understand that this phenomenon is just something you have or you don't and the ones who don't are for the most part assholes about it to the ones who do. Try and respect it/ignore it instead of calling people mentally unstable. [/QUOTE]
You're right, but not for the reason you think... If you quit something because of anxiety, you will have trouble succeeding in any area.
But... the train of thought that sc2 or sports or any other game is somehow more important because one in a million people make a living out of it is childish. I saw the same thing with the kids I worked with at Children's Hopsital. They'd spend literally every waking hour playing basketball, and when I asked them what they wanted to do when they grew up, the majority of them said "pro baller". They then throw their lives away chasing a pipe dream and end up working at a fast food chain or joining a gang. Parents and adults need to give their kids hard lessons and tell them things they sometimes don't want to hear, and sadly a lot of gamers seem to be lacking someone willing to do it. Sometimes you just have to be honest with yourself and admit that anything, even a hobby like sc, can be harmful to your development
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An interesting and helpful topic. I'm a person having anxiety issues IG and IRL in a competitive environment, and this read did help me a lot rationalize things i did think about in the past but couldn't really write about.
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[QUOTE]On August 05 2012 02:14 tskarzyn wrote:
[QUOTE]On August 01 2012 09:21 prOpSaiton wrote:
[QUOTE]On July 28 2012 08:47 Karawasa wrote:
[QUOTE]On June 27 2012 06:24 IFF wrote:
I have the solution to not being "psyched out" in a freakin video game: STOP BEING A PUSSY. GG.[/QUOTE]
You can't just tell someone "If you're way too serious about something, then you should just quit and do something else"
With everyone having that attitude we'd have pretty shitty olympians bouncing about on TV right now.
I also understand that this phenomenon is just something you have or you don't and the ones who don't are for the most part assholes about it to the ones who do. Try and respect it/ignore it instead of calling people mentally unstable. [/QUOTE]
You're right, but not for the reason you think... If you quit something because of anxiety, you will have trouble succeeding in any area.
But... the train of thought that sc2 or sports or any other game is somehow more important because one in a million people make a living out of it is childish. I saw the same thing with the kids I worked with at Children's Hopsital. They'd spend literally every waking hour playing basketball, and when I asked them what they wanted to do when they grew up, the majority of them said "pro baller". They then throw their lives away chasing a pipe dream and end up working at a fast food chain or joining a gang. Parents and adults need to give their kids hard lessons and tell them things they sometimes don't want to hear, and sadly a lot of gamers seem to be lacking someone willing to do it. Sometimes you just have to be honest with yourself and admit that anything, even a hobby like sc, can be harmful to your development[/QUOTE]
One in a million: 7000 people on earth are allowed to make a living from games/sports at any one time.
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what is anxiety?
as someone who has studied a little bit of "pua" ive concluded that most of the PUA companies out there are just pushing nonsense and BS to scam nerds into buying their products. But at the same time, i think theres a little bit of "truth" to it because men and women exist, and women are having sex, which means some dude must be having sex with a woman somewhere... etc... so that means that dude must be doing something right... so there probably is some kind of "pua knowledge" and "game" out there but i think its so abstract and weird that no pua company really has the true answers yet. Also in my own personal adventures into "pua game" i have approached over 1500 females (i normally do like 30 approaches every weekend. over 2.5 years thats around 1500 approaches)
in my own personal adventures into "pua game" one thing i believe ive concluded is that there probably is no "set rules" because all women are so different. it seems there are some girls that "game" works on, and some girls that "game" wont work on and they pretty much just decide instantly whether or not they wanna bang you on looks alone (or maybe some small social perception) and after their decision no game will work on them. and when i say "game" i dont mean like some player trying to trick a girl, thats a myth about game that girls dont get. many girls will say "oh yeah im not one of those girls that game works on. becuase those are just young girl sluts. girls like me who know what they want game wont work on" and to that i say no you dumb broad... rofl... when i say "game" all i really mean is "personality". if you are a female and you can logically look at the world and conclude that you are probably attracted to your partner because of his "personality", then that means game works on you. because thats all game is, trying to mold your personality to be what would attract the female.
and what im trying to say here is ive met women that in my honest opinion truly seems like they would be "immune" to any type of "game" that an expert pua could come up with. Theres lots of women out there that simply decide if they dont like a guy and thats it once she decides she doesnt like you she is immune to all your game. And then theres lots of women out there that are more receptive to "game" and when i say "game" i just mean a mans overall true personality and wit and charm and just who he is. some women are receptive to that, some arent.
now you may be asking why the hell did i just talk a whole lot about picking up chicks and what does it have to do with this thread?
well not much. but there is a reason i just did a huge write up on it and this is why.
Many training pua's will report that something exists in most likely all men. Maybe theres some men out there that dont have this, but most do. Its most likely genetic, and maybe some men have weaker version of this but here is what im talking about.
APPROACH ANXIETY
almost all men have approach anxiety. and many pua's have looked at it and tried to think about what it could truly possibly be, and the general consensus is that approach anxiety is a emotion that humans created because it helped us survive a long time ago and this emotion is linked with other fear/anxiety emotions that most mammals seem to have. If you own a dog and you scream at it and grab a large stick and chase it and scream at it and look like your gonna start beating it with the stick, your dog will most likely fall to the ground with its tail tucked into its legs and start shaking in fear. that is a form of anxiety, just a greater form.
as a venturing PUA who has felt approach anxiety many times i can feel whenever i feel that feeling that it very closely resembles the feeling of fear. So i think most Anxiety when it strikes is probably very closely related to the fear center of the brain, and we can call it rational or irrational but its a healthy mechanism that many animals created which most likely increased their chances of survival. healthy amounts of fear can in many situations be a good emotion to have.
EDIT: crap i pressed "post" too soon i was probably gonna write another paragraph. but hmmm i think the above summarized pretty well my idea of what anxiety truly is
some people call it a irrational emotion. well thats just a play on words really. call it rational or irrational who cares about that debate
many humans have anxiety in many situations and its my theory as a pua that people who have more anxiety than others probably just lack self confidence, but its not really self confidence, humans were designed to have anxiety by evolution and people like me who are able to blast through their anxiety i guess just somehow developed some kind of system to not be effected by it too much. and the people who have problems with anxiety somehow i dont know if its genetic or upbringing just dont have that same system inside them.
but i wont call it "self confidence" because anxiety is SUPPOSED to be there. humans created those anxiety emotions because 2 million years ago it was healthy to feel anxiety if you ventured 5 miles away from your tribe and you were alone in the woods.
i guess the people who suffer from increased anxiety are just those who are still getting those natural normal feelings the human brain is designed to create, and its a powerful feeling, and they just through unluckiness or whatever (maybe genetics, i dont know) have a harder time just blasting past that anxiety feeling and "not caring" about it. i dont even like to call it "self confidence" because im sure many men are confident and suffer from anxiety... its "something else" and i dont know what that "something else" is
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On December 22 2011 03:47 partysnatcher wrote:
Hi!
I am a psychology student and a SC2 player (have played prize level in other games). My psych degree is soon done, and I see the problem with ladder anxiety as a real challenge for SC2 in competition with more casual platforms (like Dota/LoL).
Blizzard have introduced a rather brutal league-system that directly connects your identity and ego with a league. This is probably part of the cause of the ladder anxiety phenomenon in SC2. Another factor is SC2’s focus on 1v1s, which is by far the most emotionally intense form of competition (eliminated in LoL/Dota/CS/etc by focusing on team play), and much of the reason why SC2 has relatively few casual gamers.
Reducing ladder (and tournament) anxiety in general is the main focus of this article. It also touches on related subjects; getting demoted and general lack of enjoyment with the game due to performance pressure.
The approach below is based on affect research and the cognitive-behavioral approach. First is a detailed scientific discussion aimed at those with high ladder/tournament anxiety, who have simply stopped playing - and at the bottom is a TL;DR for everyone. There will be tips to improve, but the main goal of this article is to A) decrease irrational anxiety and B) increase real enjoyment.
Off we go!
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TL;DR:
* You have ladder anxiety, and you are a human. Try to be analytic, and eliminate emotions in your thoughts about gaming. They’re not informative or helping.
* Don't let your "ladder anxiety" choose when you play SC2. Then you will never play again! To start up, rather than playing "when you feel like it", try to schedule in advance when to play, and when to stop playing. (I used 5 games as an example)
* Consider buying a smurf account to reduce ego issues.
* Get used to adrenaline. Realize that adrenaline is not fear. Realize that adrenaline does not control your consciousness unless you insist on letting it.
* Analyze losses before they happen.
* Analyze losses after they happen.
And finally, establish your real, Current Skill level. Embrace that knowledge. Grow from there. Is it better to play several times a day, with creativeness and self-confidence, in Platinum - or to be stressed out, play once a week, static and repetitive in Diamond?
i have a few things to comment on--very simple things and i'll address the TL:DR to shorten things even more.
first of all, a different set of 1v1 situations always occur in a moba like DotA or LoL.
your lanes can be seen as a seperation or mini-border setting those 1 on 1 situations in place. there is only so much map however and although there are so many options and possibilities for the combinations of the characters in a game, (considering items also) there's still only so much you can do to win your 1v1 fight or to come out ahead in your lane.
the emotional tension that comes from that (quite literally your team will sometimes rag on you for your failures in lane) is not entirely eliminated. i'll stress once again that there are preconceptions of how a lane should normally play out.
from here and to me, the main difference between the strategy game and the moba type gameplay is in the teamplay just as you say. nothing will happen on your side of the map (in a strategy game) unless you do something, while in mobas, there are several things that constantly happen and somewhat create that setting for you (mobs, jungle spawns, teammate performances, passive gold). you naturally have less control over all of these elements as they occur all at once (when compared to real-time strategy starcraft).
this is where i see a lot of people stumped. it is all on them to make things happen and the mistakes results of mostly some lack of foresight/skill. for some of my friends this is where the idea of playing stops---the 1 on 1 is scary already.
how do you actually get someone interested? ..especially people who find themselves frustrated more easily?
what i've kept and has helped me the most is some sense of humbleness.
for example, that idea that everything i do, could be done better in some way.. every good move i made started with some mistake from an opponent that i happened upon.
most of my motivation to play came from different sources, but at the back of my mind at every moment of gameplay, i was thinking of what i could do to extend upon myself, better myself and my play... finding more mistakes and more often, being as efficient as i'd like to be, trying my hardest despite any obnoxious comparisons of skill, time, handicap, or lack of fair balance.
i think it is very good to tell yourself that your emotions don't matter, but i also think that embracing your emotion and style of thinking is what creates this unique feeling of how the game is important for you. starcraft is an art where we have so much style and face+name recognition. we love players and their play through starcraft and what they do because of this game. changing yourself and your attitude is very difficult and more or less not worth the effort for many people.
some people tell me that time (or in other words, spending time and focusing on things over time) only grow to make a situation worst. i honestly feel that that idea is a sort of fear.. so despite all the random text i'm spewing, i think in the end that it's best to have a sense of existentialism---to have an idea of what it is like to play with all corners of different styles, techniques, or even mindsets---then to make the game your own with the thought that there is so much more out there to learn and improve on.
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EPT
