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On December 16 2011 05:46 Trsjnica wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 05:43 schI2ler wrote:On December 16 2011 05:42 magnaflow wrote:
Soon enough we will no longer see Koreans participating in foreign events and we will be right back to BW. Koreans are going to isolate themselves again with shit like this happening.
The way most of this community has been shitting on GOM I could really see them saying fuck it to any type of exchange program.
By the end of 2012 SC2 will be non-existant in foreign lands, just like BW was.
this time we got the money... koreans will come, don't worry I don't think we should turn this into Foreigner versus Korea. Fact is, this was an action by GOM, not Korean pro gamers. Like it or not, it was GOM. Further, this didn't really hurt foreign progamers as a whole--it hurt Naniwa, but it helped someone else (probably Sen, assuming he wouldn't get the spot otherwise).
I am under the impression that the Korean pro-gamers and the Korean fans are a very integral part of why GOM decided to make this move. Our best foreigner not being in Code S sets us back.
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On December 16 2011 05:40 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 05:35 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 05:29 IPA wrote:
I have stood by GOM during the Naniwa situation because I think he got what he deserved. This is something else entirely though. Troubling, to say the least. I have GOM clarifies soon. Same here, I would rather them just say they revoked the code S spot due to his conduct than say he never had it. But the real question is wtf happened between MLG and GOM? Seems quite odd that MLG is willing to say that they didn't know about it but it's within their rights to do it. Shouldn't they be really upset with this? Why aren't they? In the very least it must have been a verbal agreement? If there was a contract involved then wouldn't it be within MLG's rights to take action against GOM? Was there no contract or do Korean contracts just not work like that? Maybe MLG feels so dependent on getting GSL players they don't want to say anything else? I would like to know what the actual terms of agreement were originally that caused MLG to promise this stuff. i doubt these huge organizations are going to let you look at their proprietary business agreements. MLG said they didn't violate the agreement and their opinion really is the only one that matters since they are the only ones that can enforce the agreement.
Details are not required, but they really aren't saying anything. They certainly aren't saying the agreement for GSL code S spots was legally binding, quite the opposite. So I think we need to know WHY it was within GSLs rights to do it.
Did they promise it over drinks and it was just a bullshit verbal agreement?
Was MLG already aware that it was not 100% for sure and didn't convey this?
Did they actually sign a contract but it's not legally binding because of Korean law?
Did GSL blatantly break a contract but MLG doesn't want to upset them?
Promising a code S spot, and then saying it's within their right after the fact that it has been revoked, is also a problem on MLGs side. A big problem. They are promising stuff that they already knew could be changed without their knowledge, I don't see what else we can get from their statement without more information.
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An awesome addition to the "PROFESSIONALISM IN ESPORTS" drama, now we can clearly see how far away SC2 is from meeting the standards of real professional sports. All the more amusing how GOM decided to play the sheriff and punish Naniwa for his lack of professionalism, all the while changing its own rules and unilaterally backing out of deals without even informing their partners. Such delicious, delicious irony.
But the real lesson that should be learned from all this, is that professionalism, competitive ethics and good institutions all take time to develop. Trying to rush things in one direction only makes everyone look stupid in the end, like it did here.
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On December 16 2011 05:44 figq wrote:
There was a similar (most likely unintentional) bait and switch involved around the Coca accident - namely, at the time of playing, the tournament was in re-negotiating their terms with GOM, and so even the monthly finals of it were not yet confirmed to grant any Code A spot at all again (as has been widely assumed and erroneously spread around).
I just find it to be a funny coincidence that in both cases we have a tournament that is publicly assumed to grant a certain GSL slot, that after the accident turns out to not be the case actually. But still, it's just that, a funny coincidence. (and I'm seriously not sarcastic, I just find it amusing)
except slayers took action in that case, not GOM. so, your point really doesnt make sense.
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On December 16 2011 05:39 Gfire wrote:
From GOM's perspective, I'd imagine they thought it was pretty clear when they said that the Providence top players would get into the Blizzard cup, it was instead of a Code S seed, which isn't too much of a stretch considering the LXP was only for the duration of 2011 and the next Code S is in 2012.
They thought of also invite Naniwa into code S January anyway, as one of the top foreigners (just like how Idra and Sen are getting in,) so everyone thought he was getting a seed from Providence, and we didn't hear otherwise until they decided he wasn't eligible for the invitation. I think the Koreans all knew what was going on, it just didn't make it to the foreigners.
As I've read earlier today, the deal between GOM and MLG was that every MLG 2011 top placement who isnt in code S, gets a spot in code S (note that there wasnt a time frame here).
I cant find the quote atm but its from the first announcement made by GOM/MLG.
EDIT:
Here it is
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/news/65291
At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows:
Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.
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On December 16 2011 05:45 bmml wrote:
I understand MLG are trying to harbor good relations between themselves and GOM but they should probably be a bit more overtly angry at GOM, they fucked you guys over don't be completely spineless.
If you want to make clear you are angry, you show that you will not stand up for the other party. You make it clear, that you aren't to blame. But you don't burn bridges. Nothing good comes out of it if MLG openly expresses their anger. Let them know you are angry... then they will have to talk, not you...
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Just cause I love a good conspiracy theory and even though I'm sure this isn't the case....
Anyone notice how the one time a foreigner earns a code S spot from MLG..... GSL change the agreement?
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You can't change once a deal is made.. Come on who is unprofessional here? -_- :rolleyes
They can give IdrA and Sen free invites, but there is no place for naniwa because of "change".. Give me a break GomTv. So sad for nani.
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On December 16 2011 05:47 justinpal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 05:46 Trsjnica wrote:On December 16 2011 05:43 schI2ler wrote:On December 16 2011 05:42 magnaflow wrote:
Soon enough we will no longer see Koreans participating in foreign events and we will be right back to BW. Koreans are going to isolate themselves again with shit like this happening.
The way most of this community has been shitting on GOM I could really see them saying fuck it to any type of exchange program.
By the end of 2012 SC2 will be non-existant in foreign lands, just like BW was.
this time we got the money... koreans will come, don't worry I don't think we should turn this into Foreigner versus Korea. Fact is, this was an action by GOM, not Korean pro gamers. Like it or not, it was GOM. Further, this didn't really hurt foreign progamers as a whole--it hurt Naniwa, but it helped someone else (probably Sen, assuming he wouldn't get the spot otherwise). I am under the impression that the Korean pro-gamers and the Korean fans are a very integral part of why GOM decided to make this move. Our best foreigner not being in Code S sets us back.
This decision wasn't some decision made after intense consultation with progaming groups and so on. It may relate to social standards (e.g. Koreans think differently than some non-koreans about "useless" matches), but there's no reason foreigners should hold this decision against *any* Korean progamer individually.
Also, it's a pretty debatable point that Naniwa = best foreigner.
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On December 16 2011 05:46 Trsjnica wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 05:43 schI2ler wrote:On December 16 2011 05:42 magnaflow wrote:
Soon enough we will no longer see Koreans participating in foreign events and we will be right back to BW. Koreans are going to isolate themselves again with shit like this happening.
The way most of this community has been shitting on GOM I could really see them saying fuck it to any type of exchange program.
By the end of 2012 SC2 will be non-existant in foreign lands, just like BW was.
this time we got the money... koreans will come, don't worry I don't think we should turn this into Foreigner versus Korea. Fact is, this was an action by GOM, not Korean pro gamers. Like it or not, it was GOM. Further, this didn't really hurt foreign progamers as a whole--it hurt Naniwa, but it helped someone else (probably Sen, assuming he wouldn't get the spot otherwise).
While I love your perspective on the Korean vs Foreigner front, I do have to take issue with your second point. Taking a spot from Naniwa and giving it to Sen is a zero sum way to look at esports. I do not think esports are zero sum.
If we continue to let the best players have the best stuff, we engender competition and make EVERY player better off because they all have clear goals and "players to beat." I think that rewarding Naniwa for his amazing performance ultimately helps Sen as well which means esports can be positive sum, we just need to hold GOM to the same standard we're holding Naniwa.
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On December 16 2011 05:47 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 05:40 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 16 2011 05:35 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 05:29 IPA wrote:
I have stood by GOM during the Naniwa situation because I think he got what he deserved. This is something else entirely though. Troubling, to say the least. I have GOM clarifies soon. Same here, I would rather them just say they revoked the code S spot due to his conduct than say he never had it. But the real question is wtf happened between MLG and GOM? Seems quite odd that MLG is willing to say that they didn't know about it but it's within their rights to do it. Shouldn't they be really upset with this? Why aren't they? In the very least it must have been a verbal agreement? If there was a contract involved then wouldn't it be within MLG's rights to take action against GOM? Was there no contract or do Korean contracts just not work like that? Maybe MLG feels so dependent on getting GSL players they don't want to say anything else? I would like to know what the actual terms of agreement were originally that caused MLG to promise this stuff. i doubt these huge organizations are going to let you look at their proprietary business agreements. MLG said they didn't violate the agreement and their opinion really is the only one that matters since they are the only ones that can enforce the agreement. Details are not required, but they really aren't saying anything. They certainly aren't saying the agreement for GSL code S spots was legally binding, quite the opposite. So I think we need to know WHY it was within GSLs rights to do it. Did they promise it over drinks and it was just a bullshit verbal agreement? Was MLG already aware that it was not 100% for sure and didn't convey this? Did they actually sign a contract but it's not legally binding because of Korean law? Did GSL blatantly break a contract but MLG doesn't want to upset them? Promising a code S spot, and then saying it's within their right after the fact that it has been revoked, is also a problem on MLGs side. A big problem. They are promising stuff that they already knew could be changed without their knowledge, I don't see what else we can get from their statement without more information.
honestly dude, its none of your business. you buy a product; that doesnt give you the right to sniff through all of mlg and gom's business affairs. i have a GE oven, but i don't expect GE to allow me to read all their contracts with manufacturers.
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GOM calls Naniwa unprofessional when he probe rushes, which I do agree with, but then GOM does something as unprofessional as this.
This miscommunication is absolutely huge, and to me I just dont get how something that important can be miscommunicated. It feels like a lie to pretty much cover up the fact that they don't have an actual rule to kick Naniwa out of Code S.
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I'd really like to hear what GOM has to say about this. Post on gomtv.net.
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On December 16 2011 05:50 Trsjnica wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 05:47 justinpal wrote:On December 16 2011 05:46 Trsjnica wrote:On December 16 2011 05:43 schI2ler wrote:On December 16 2011 05:42 magnaflow wrote:
Soon enough we will no longer see Koreans participating in foreign events and we will be right back to BW. Koreans are going to isolate themselves again with shit like this happening.
The way most of this community has been shitting on GOM I could really see them saying fuck it to any type of exchange program.
By the end of 2012 SC2 will be non-existant in foreign lands, just like BW was.
this time we got the money... koreans will come, don't worry I don't think we should turn this into Foreigner versus Korea. Fact is, this was an action by GOM, not Korean pro gamers. Like it or not, it was GOM. Further, this didn't really hurt foreign progamers as a whole--it hurt Naniwa, but it helped someone else (probably Sen, assuming he wouldn't get the spot otherwise). I am under the impression that the Korean pro-gamers and the Korean fans are a very integral part of why GOM decided to make this move. Our best foreigner not being in Code S sets us back. This decision wasn't some decision made after intense consultation with progaming groups and so on. It may relate to social standards (e.g. Koreans think differently than some non-koreans about "useless" matches), but there's no reason foreigners should hold this decision against *any* Korean progamer individually. Also, it's a pretty debatable point that Naniwa = best foreigner.
Yes. But, he earned the spot in MLG Providence hence why this thread exists. He may not be objectively the best, but every other top foreigner was at that event...so...
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Oh come on. This is massive nitpicking.
Gom changed their seeding and with it their MLG invites. They were seeding Naniwa into code S regardless, but he messed that up himself. They were honoring their deal with MLG under the new circumstances. Yea, they should have informed MLG (altho I'm not sure if at that point the new code S system was actually finalized, but that's no excuse).
This wouldn't have had any implications at all if it wasn't for Nani's actions. Nobody got screwed over here, and I honestly don't see the need to discuss it. Nani and his admitted he was wrong, accepted the punishment and are going on with their lives/careers.
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I have legitimately stopped caring at this point. While I think NaNi didn't deserve to KEEP the GSL spot, when GOM announced a special tourney, I think that that was the spot NaNi won. That being said, I think GOM should've consulted with MLG before announcing this change, so that they could really discuss how their agreement would work in this case
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So do people STILL accept that GOM is completely blameless in this situation? Do you STILL beleive that they are infallible?
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On December 16 2011 05:50 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 05:47 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 05:40 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 16 2011 05:35 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 05:29 IPA wrote:
I have stood by GOM during the Naniwa situation because I think he got what he deserved. This is something else entirely though. Troubling, to say the least. I have GOM clarifies soon. Same here, I would rather them just say they revoked the code S spot due to his conduct than say he never had it. But the real question is wtf happened between MLG and GOM? Seems quite odd that MLG is willing to say that they didn't know about it but it's within their rights to do it. Shouldn't they be really upset with this? Why aren't they? In the very least it must have been a verbal agreement? If there was a contract involved then wouldn't it be within MLG's rights to take action against GOM? Was there no contract or do Korean contracts just not work like that? Maybe MLG feels so dependent on getting GSL players they don't want to say anything else? I would like to know what the actual terms of agreement were originally that caused MLG to promise this stuff. i doubt these huge organizations are going to let you look at their proprietary business agreements. MLG said they didn't violate the agreement and their opinion really is the only one that matters since they are the only ones that can enforce the agreement. Details are not required, but they really aren't saying anything. They certainly aren't saying the agreement for GSL code S spots was legally binding, quite the opposite. So I think we need to know WHY it was within GSLs rights to do it. Did they promise it over drinks and it was just a bullshit verbal agreement? Was MLG already aware that it was not 100% for sure and didn't convey this? Did they actually sign a contract but it's not legally binding because of Korean law? Did GSL blatantly break a contract but MLG doesn't want to upset them? Promising a code S spot, and then saying it's within their right after the fact that it has been revoked, is also a problem on MLGs side. A big problem. They are promising stuff that they already knew could be changed without their knowledge, I don't see what else we can get from their statement without more information. honestly dude, its none of your business. you buy a product; that doesnt give you the right to sniff through all of mlg and gom's business affairs. i have a GE oven, but i don't expect GE to allow me to read all their contracts with manufacturers.
GE's business dealings are more public knowledge than you'd think.
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On December 16 2011 05:50 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 05:47 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 05:40 dAPhREAk wrote:On December 16 2011 05:35 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 16 2011 05:29 IPA wrote:
I have stood by GOM during the Naniwa situation because I think he got what he deserved. This is something else entirely though. Troubling, to say the least. I have GOM clarifies soon. Same here, I would rather them just say they revoked the code S spot due to his conduct than say he never had it. But the real question is wtf happened between MLG and GOM? Seems quite odd that MLG is willing to say that they didn't know about it but it's within their rights to do it. Shouldn't they be really upset with this? Why aren't they? In the very least it must have been a verbal agreement? If there was a contract involved then wouldn't it be within MLG's rights to take action against GOM? Was there no contract or do Korean contracts just not work like that? Maybe MLG feels so dependent on getting GSL players they don't want to say anything else? I would like to know what the actual terms of agreement were originally that caused MLG to promise this stuff. i doubt these huge organizations are going to let you look at their proprietary business agreements. MLG said they didn't violate the agreement and their opinion really is the only one that matters since they are the only ones that can enforce the agreement. Details are not required, but they really aren't saying anything. They certainly aren't saying the agreement for GSL code S spots was legally binding, quite the opposite. So I think we need to know WHY it was within GSLs rights to do it. Did they promise it over drinks and it was just a bullshit verbal agreement? Was MLG already aware that it was not 100% for sure and didn't convey this? Did they actually sign a contract but it's not legally binding because of Korean law? Did GSL blatantly break a contract but MLG doesn't want to upset them? Promising a code S spot, and then saying it's within their right after the fact that it has been revoked, is also a problem on MLGs side. A big problem. They are promising stuff that they already knew could be changed without their knowledge, I don't see what else we can get from their statement without more information. honestly dude, its none of your business. you buy a product; that doesnt give you the right to sniff through all of mlg and gom's business affairs. i have a GE oven, but i don't expect GE to allow me to read all their contracts with manufacturers.
Of course, but I can't just blame GSL when MLG was the one who admittedly was promising things they had no control or even a legally binding agreement over.
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bring sundance on live on 3. he need a statement!
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EPT
