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Germany2859 Posts
On December 16 2011 12:57 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 12:52 rotegirte wrote:On December 16 2011 12:50 jinorazi wrote:On December 16 2011 12:47 rotegirte wrote:On December 16 2011 12:42 lOvRyooMak wrote:On December 16 2011 12:15 rotegirte wrote:On December 16 2011 12:08 hunts wrote:On December 16 2011 10:53 lOvRyooMak wrote:Hi im a korean living in korea.. I regularly visit korean sites playxp and thisisgame for sc2 There seems to be a lot of misscommunication and confusion overseas I dont see what the fuss is about regarding the format change To be exact the new 2012 gsl format was announced at night dec10th korean time, the night before the start of the blizzard Cup. So what if the format was changed before or after the blizzard cup? The gsl format was always changed every one or two seasons for improvement I remember seeing reactions by people here on TL - i like the new GSL Format! But i dont like the new GSTL format.. Etc Regarding the code S seeding change... As the MLG also clearly stated it is in all gomtv's right to change seeding however they please. Why can't you see that the seeding change was meant to give international players more opportunity in the GSL? The previous seeding would give the seed to the top placed players in the mlg regardless if it were a korean or not. Instead they decided to nominate top international players as candidates for the two seed spots, and the judges would select two probably based on various criteria. i.e personal reasons- not every player may wish to come play in korea. In this case as mentioned in gomtv's latest post sen.idra and naniwa were selected as candidates. But due to naniwa's conduct in the blizzard cup they decided to give it to sen and idra. The nominees and criteria were not announced prior to the decision because the criteria was probably not decided yet! Naniwa's misbehaviour made the decision easier for gom IMO. You have to understand that the gsl is still experimental. Gomtv knows there is room for improvement here and there and is constantly trying to change and develop their league. Making announcements before the system were solidified and decisions were made would make an even bigger confusion and possible shitstorm if it were changed everday. Yes it would be nice if gomtv could just post here on TL and explain ever little thing that is going on what they are discussing and wanting to change. But as you might have noticed the people at gomtv are not that good at english and there can only be misinterpretations here and there. I have been to the gomtv studio many times and what you must understand is that it is quite smaller than you may think. In fact its tiny compared to competitions like mlg or dreamhack. The whole gomtv staff only number about 20people. There are only limitations to what these 20people can do at omce. They cant be everywhere answering all questions here and there and making decisions at once. What i would really like to say is there is always a perfectly good explanation to everything.. Otherwise the korean community would have a bigger shitstorm. The last thing koreans want is something like kespa. instead of making blunt observations on misscommunication and Misinterpretations perhaps wait for a proper announcement by gom or maybe help on a better translation on korean articles before making a shitstorm out of nothing  Thank you very much for that. Quoting it in hopes more people read it, it's a very well written post with many good points. I really wish more people would think straight rather than letting their emotions get the better of them and make them completely unreasonable and biased. I think with the naniwa incident GOM got caught between a rock and a hard place. If they did nothing, many of the koreans that were throwing a shitstorm would stop supporting them. If they took action, as you can see a lot of the naniwa fanboys decided to throw a shitstorm and stop supporting them. In the end as they are a korean based organization and there are far more koreans outraged at naniwas actions than there are nanniwa fans outraged at GOMs actions, I think they did the right thing both morally and for business purposes. I do wish things could've been a bit clearer as to what happened with the GSL/MLG exchange program with providennce, but I think it's starting to make sense now, I just wish more people would take the time to read up on what happened and try to understand it rather than coming here and flaming GOM without even reading the facts. It has little to do with "misunderstanding". When they want to punish NaNiwa, just say it as it is. "What NaNiwa did was wrong, he gets no Code S seed, period." Fanboys would be raging no matter what. Instead they climbed into a time machine and said "Remember the rules you agreed to and played under back in November in Providence? Right, forget them. We are changing the rules now, a month after the tournament finished". You don't do that- you could even call it fraud. Have you ever supported any other tournament to go call one of their previous winners and say "The money you should recieve for your last win, actually we now think you should only get half of it". What im saying is yes his prize was change The prize was changed because the seed format was chamged. Im only pointing out there is a good reason for the change-to give more opportunities It is a sacrifice naniwa was forced to make for the good of the gsl. Naniwa should be well credited for it. The change in seed format had nothing to do with blizzcup, naniwa and quantic have accepted it. Fans of naniwa can be angry.. But it wont change anything. Naniwa still had a chance for the code S seed being a candidate but gom eliminated Him from the candidate list due to blizzcup. End of story You can be angry as you like at gom for changing his prize and or taking his candidate position But im just pointing out it was an optimal decision for the tournament itself Please take your time and re-read my posts. Especially the long one. No one here discusses the change. It is a whole different matter. Many in TL actually find the new format really good, or at least a good improvement. It also doesn't matter whether NaNiwa get's Code S or not. I think you deliberately skipped 99% of my posts. Because that's another thing I had to repeat over and over. It is about changing rules afterwards. Imagine a test in school. Your teacher tells you: "draw a house". One week later he gives you the results of the test. And says: "By the way, I changed the rules of the test. The new goal is to draw a horse. You have 0 points, enjoy" What I am saying is, they can change their format. Just tell others about it before the tournament. And not after. i think you're making it a bigger deal than it actually is. especially when people are connecting it with naniwa. you're making it like they actually changed the prize pool, which would be significant but its not the same. So rewards to player performance in tournaments should be generally held subject to change, and tournament organizer's judgement will suffice on evaluating significance? depending on the situation, yes. in this case, the change was for the better. according earlier post, blizzard cup's seeding changed after blizzard cup's announcement (this was for the better also), where was everyone then? just saying, this is getting extra attention because of naniwa, not because changing rules are evil.
It is a whole different matter to change rules after the completion of a tournament. At least it is getting my attention because throughout 3 different genres it is the first time I see people actually condone the fact that organizers change terms afterwards.
So let it be clear:
Players should generally be aware of the fact that rules, terms of conduct and announced prizes could be subject to change at any given point by the discretion of the tournament organizer, also retroactively applicable to any event of the same organizer they have ever participated in.
This is your stance?
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On December 16 2011 13:04 eshlow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 12:59 jinorazi wrote:On December 16 2011 12:54 eshlow wrote:
rote, you shoulda just quoted my post instead of making an analogy. :p
Basically,
1. GOM does not notify that they are changing the rules of code S.
2. MLG, and foreign fans, and Naniwa and other players are under the impression top 3 of non-code S at providence will get code S spot.
3. GOM says this is not true and that Naniwa was only in consideration, in their recently released statement. Thus, retrospectively changing the rules.
This is unprofessional to change the rules after the fact BECAUSE they didn't notify MLG (whom they have a partnership with) and the foreign fans, and the players who were all under the impression that Naniwa had a code S spot.
If we are going to get on Naniwa's case for being unprofessional, EVERYONE should ALSO be getting on GOM's case for being unprofessional by retroactively changing their own rules without notifying anyone.
It's airtight logic. There's no way anyone should be arguing the opposite side.
edit:
Note that changing the rules is fine. Notifying MLG, the fans, etc. of the changed rules IS professional and fine. The fact that they did not do this, and then came out with a statement that is contrary WITHOUT TELLING US THEY CHANGED THE RULES is blatantly unprofessional. its been done before, where was the fuss then? no need to answer, just saying. but a few posts this page and last page seems to sum up the situation well. there's really no need for hate and pointing fingers and blaming someone. People have thrown games before. Where's the fuss then? The fact is if we are going to hold Naniwa to a professional standard here, then anything to do with the current situation in regards to his being labeled "unprofessional" then the accusers (in this case GOM) should not be unprofessional in their actions either. No one likes hypocrites.
there was a fuss...coca?
well, think of it this way. gom had an excuse, which didn't hurt especially the foreigners, it helps them.
naniwa had no excuse. naniwa was acting on his own and obviously, shit load of people got pissed.
people (majority) are getting pissed of this change because of connecting it with naniwa, not because of the uninformed change itself.
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why should GOM hold their side of the gsl-mlg agreement if MLG Providence was structured so MLG could not hold their side of their bargain? Providence did not have championship pools, and one of the stipulations of the contract was that all four koreans sent to Providence would be placed into pools. MVP was placed into the open brackets. If MVP was not seeded, why should GSL have to seed Naniwa into code S? MLG did not make the tournament applicable to their exchange agreement.
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On December 16 2011 13:09 rotegirte wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 12:57 jinorazi wrote:On December 16 2011 12:52 rotegirte wrote:On December 16 2011 12:50 jinorazi wrote:On December 16 2011 12:47 rotegirte wrote:On December 16 2011 12:42 lOvRyooMak wrote:On December 16 2011 12:15 rotegirte wrote:On December 16 2011 12:08 hunts wrote:On December 16 2011 10:53 lOvRyooMak wrote:Hi im a korean living in korea.. I regularly visit korean sites playxp and thisisgame for sc2 There seems to be a lot of misscommunication and confusion overseas I dont see what the fuss is about regarding the format change To be exact the new 2012 gsl format was announced at night dec10th korean time, the night before the start of the blizzard Cup. So what if the format was changed before or after the blizzard cup? The gsl format was always changed every one or two seasons for improvement I remember seeing reactions by people here on TL - i like the new GSL Format! But i dont like the new GSTL format.. Etc Regarding the code S seeding change... As the MLG also clearly stated it is in all gomtv's right to change seeding however they please. Why can't you see that the seeding change was meant to give international players more opportunity in the GSL? The previous seeding would give the seed to the top placed players in the mlg regardless if it were a korean or not. Instead they decided to nominate top international players as candidates for the two seed spots, and the judges would select two probably based on various criteria. i.e personal reasons- not every player may wish to come play in korea. In this case as mentioned in gomtv's latest post sen.idra and naniwa were selected as candidates. But due to naniwa's conduct in the blizzard cup they decided to give it to sen and idra. The nominees and criteria were not announced prior to the decision because the criteria was probably not decided yet! Naniwa's misbehaviour made the decision easier for gom IMO. You have to understand that the gsl is still experimental. Gomtv knows there is room for improvement here and there and is constantly trying to change and develop their league. Making announcements before the system were solidified and decisions were made would make an even bigger confusion and possible shitstorm if it were changed everday. Yes it would be nice if gomtv could just post here on TL and explain ever little thing that is going on what they are discussing and wanting to change. But as you might have noticed the people at gomtv are not that good at english and there can only be misinterpretations here and there. I have been to the gomtv studio many times and what you must understand is that it is quite smaller than you may think. In fact its tiny compared to competitions like mlg or dreamhack. The whole gomtv staff only number about 20people. There are only limitations to what these 20people can do at omce. They cant be everywhere answering all questions here and there and making decisions at once. What i would really like to say is there is always a perfectly good explanation to everything.. Otherwise the korean community would have a bigger shitstorm. The last thing koreans want is something like kespa. instead of making blunt observations on misscommunication and Misinterpretations perhaps wait for a proper announcement by gom or maybe help on a better translation on korean articles before making a shitstorm out of nothing Thank you very much for that. Quoting it in hopes more people read it, it's a very well written post with many good points. I really wish more people would think straight rather than letting their emotions get the better of them and make them completely unreasonable and biased. I think with the naniwa incident GOM got caught between a rock and a hard place. If they did nothing, many of the koreans that were throwing a shitstorm would stop supporting them. If they took action, as you can see a lot of the naniwa fanboys decided to throw a shitstorm and stop supporting them. In the end as they are a korean based organization and there are far more koreans outraged at naniwas actions than there are nanniwa fans outraged at GOMs actions, I think they did the right thing both morally and for business purposes. I do wish things could've been a bit clearer as to what happened with the GSL/MLG exchange program with providennce, but I think it's starting to make sense now, I just wish more people would take the time to read up on what happened and try to understand it rather than coming here and flaming GOM without even reading the facts. It has little to do with "misunderstanding". When they want to punish NaNiwa, just say it as it is. "What NaNiwa did was wrong, he gets no Code S seed, period." Fanboys would be raging no matter what. Instead they climbed into a time machine and said "Remember the rules you agreed to and played under back in November in Providence? Right, forget them. We are changing the rules now, a month after the tournament finished". You don't do that- you could even call it fraud. Have you ever supported any other tournament to go call one of their previous winners and say "The money you should recieve for your last win, actually we now think you should only get half of it". What im saying is yes his prize was change The prize was changed because the seed format was chamged. Im only pointing out there is a good reason for the change-to give more opportunities It is a sacrifice naniwa was forced to make for the good of the gsl. Naniwa should be well credited for it. The change in seed format had nothing to do with blizzcup, naniwa and quantic have accepted it. Fans of naniwa can be angry.. But it wont change anything. Naniwa still had a chance for the code S seed being a candidate but gom eliminated Him from the candidate list due to blizzcup. End of story You can be angry as you like at gom for changing his prize and or taking his candidate position But im just pointing out it was an optimal decision for the tournament itself Please take your time and re-read my posts. Especially the long one. No one here discusses the change. It is a whole different matter. Many in TL actually find the new format really good, or at least a good improvement. It also doesn't matter whether NaNiwa get's Code S or not. I think you deliberately skipped 99% of my posts. Because that's another thing I had to repeat over and over. It is about changing rules afterwards. Imagine a test in school. Your teacher tells you: "draw a house". One week later he gives you the results of the test. And says: "By the way, I changed the rules of the test. The new goal is to draw a horse. You have 0 points, enjoy" What I am saying is, they can change their format. Just tell others about it before the tournament. And not after. i think you're making it a bigger deal than it actually is. especially when people are connecting it with naniwa. you're making it like they actually changed the prize pool, which would be significant but its not the same. So rewards to player performance in tournaments should be generally held subject to change, and tournament organizer's judgement will suffice on evaluating significance? depending on the situation, yes. in this case, the change was for the better. according earlier post, blizzard cup's seeding changed after blizzard cup's announcement (this was for the better also), where was everyone then? just saying, this is getting extra attention because of naniwa, not because changing rules are evil. It is a whole different matter to change rules after the completion of a tournament. At least it is getting my attention because throughout 3 different genres it is the first time I see people actually condone the fact that organizers change terms afterwards. So let it be clear: Players should generally be aware of the fact that rules, terms of conduct and announced prizes could be subject to change at any given point by the discretion of the tournament organizer, also retroactively applicable to any event of the same organizer they have ever participated in. This is your stance?
no, unless such possibility was announced before hand and the players were aware.
i'm just saying i dont think its big enough to cause such hate. it helps more than it causes harm.
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On December 16 2011 12:42 lOvRyooMak wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 12:15 rotegirte wrote:On December 16 2011 12:08 hunts wrote:On December 16 2011 10:53 lOvRyooMak wrote:Hi im a korean living in korea.. I regularly visit korean sites playxp and thisisgame for sc2 There seems to be a lot of misscommunication and confusion overseas I dont see what the fuss is about regarding the format change To be exact the new 2012 gsl format was announced at night dec10th korean time, the night before the start of the blizzard Cup. So what if the format was changed before or after the blizzard cup? The gsl format was always changed every one or two seasons for improvement I remember seeing reactions by people here on TL - i like the new GSL Format! But i dont like the new GSTL format.. Etc Regarding the code S seeding change... As the MLG also clearly stated it is in all gomtv's right to change seeding however they please. Why can't you see that the seeding change was meant to give international players more opportunity in the GSL? The previous seeding would give the seed to the top placed players in the mlg regardless if it were a korean or not. Instead they decided to nominate top international players as candidates for the two seed spots, and the judges would select two probably based on various criteria. i.e personal reasons- not every player may wish to come play in korea. In this case as mentioned in gomtv's latest post sen.idra and naniwa were selected as candidates. But due to naniwa's conduct in the blizzard cup they decided to give it to sen and idra. The nominees and criteria were not announced prior to the decision because the criteria was probably not decided yet! Naniwa's misbehaviour made the decision easier for gom IMO. You have to understand that the gsl is still experimental. Gomtv knows there is room for improvement here and there and is constantly trying to change and develop their league. Making announcements before the system were solidified and decisions were made would make an even bigger confusion and possible shitstorm if it were changed everday. Yes it would be nice if gomtv could just post here on TL and explain ever little thing that is going on what they are discussing and wanting to change. But as you might have noticed the people at gomtv are not that good at english and there can only be misinterpretations here and there. I have been to the gomtv studio many times and what you must understand is that it is quite smaller than you may think. In fact its tiny compared to competitions like mlg or dreamhack. The whole gomtv staff only number about 20people. There are only limitations to what these 20people can do at omce. They cant be everywhere answering all questions here and there and making decisions at once. What i would really like to say is there is always a perfectly good explanation to everything.. Otherwise the korean community would have a bigger shitstorm. The last thing koreans want is something like kespa. instead of making blunt observations on misscommunication and Misinterpretations perhaps wait for a proper announcement by gom or maybe help on a better translation on korean articles before making a shitstorm out of nothing Thank you very much for that. Quoting it in hopes more people read it, it's a very well written post with many good points. I really wish more people would think straight rather than letting their emotions get the better of them and make them completely unreasonable and biased. I think with the naniwa incident GOM got caught between a rock and a hard place. If they did nothing, many of the koreans that were throwing a shitstorm would stop supporting them. If they took action, as you can see a lot of the naniwa fanboys decided to throw a shitstorm and stop supporting them. In the end as they are a korean based organization and there are far more koreans outraged at naniwas actions than there are nanniwa fans outraged at GOMs actions, I think they did the right thing both morally and for business purposes. I do wish things could've been a bit clearer as to what happened with the GSL/MLG exchange program with providennce, but I think it's starting to make sense now, I just wish more people would take the time to read up on what happened and try to understand it rather than coming here and flaming GOM without even reading the facts. It has little to do with "misunderstanding". When they want to punish NaNiwa, just say it as it is. "What NaNiwa did was wrong, he gets no Code S seed, period." Fanboys would be raging no matter what. Instead they climbed into a time machine and said "Remember the rules you agreed to and played under back in November in Providence? Right, forget them. We are changing the rules now, a month after the tournament finished". You don't do that- you could even call it fraud. Have you ever supported any other tournament to go call one of their previous winners and say "The money you should recieve for your last win, actually we now think you should only get half of it". eliminated him from the candidate list due to his conduct in blizzcup which angered korean gamers fans and staff.. End of story
That's maybe the "End of Story" for you, but not in my opinion.
Like we said previously, this as NOTHING to do with the decision of taking Naniwa spot, but all about the way that it was done.
MLG completly paid for 4 Koreans for Providence, for the LXP. Then, MLG advertised that Naniwa won a Code S spot, pretty much everywhere...
Don't you get how it was bad from them, to change everything just now and not even telling MLG? They don't even have speaked with them, that's why MLG had to make this annoncement.
YES what NANIWA DID WAS WRONG. But what GomTV did was worst, at least in my eye.
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On December 16 2011 13:10 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 13:04 eshlow wrote:On December 16 2011 12:59 jinorazi wrote:On December 16 2011 12:54 eshlow wrote:
rote, you shoulda just quoted my post instead of making an analogy. :p
Basically,
1. GOM does not notify that they are changing the rules of code S.
2. MLG, and foreign fans, and Naniwa and other players are under the impression top 3 of non-code S at providence will get code S spot.
3. GOM says this is not true and that Naniwa was only in consideration, in their recently released statement. Thus, retrospectively changing the rules.
This is unprofessional to change the rules after the fact BECAUSE they didn't notify MLG (whom they have a partnership with) and the foreign fans, and the players who were all under the impression that Naniwa had a code S spot.
If we are going to get on Naniwa's case for being unprofessional, EVERYONE should ALSO be getting on GOM's case for being unprofessional by retroactively changing their own rules without notifying anyone.
It's airtight logic. There's no way anyone should be arguing the opposite side.
edit:
Note that changing the rules is fine. Notifying MLG, the fans, etc. of the changed rules IS professional and fine. The fact that they did not do this, and then came out with a statement that is contrary WITHOUT TELLING US THEY CHANGED THE RULES is blatantly unprofessional. its been done before, where was the fuss then? no need to answer, just saying. but a few posts this page and last page seems to sum up the situation well. there's really no need for hate and pointing fingers and blaming someone. People have thrown games before. Where's the fuss then? The fact is if we are going to hold Naniwa to a professional standard here, then anything to do with the current situation in regards to his being labeled "unprofessional" then the accusers (in this case GOM) should not be unprofessional in their actions either. No one likes hypocrites. there was a fuss...coca? well, think of it this way. gom had an excuse, which didn't hurt especially the foreigners, it helps them. naniwa had no excuse. naniwa was acting on his own and obviously, shit load of people got pissed. people are getting pissed of this change because of connecting it with naniwa, not because of the uninformed change itself.
People are getting pissed because GOM is laying out punishment on Naniwa for acting unprofessional, while GOM is acting unprofessional by changing the rules without telling anyone involved.
As I said, that is hypocritical.
It's like your parents tell you not to curse or say bad words as a kid, but then they go and curse and say bad words to other people.
Everyone hates that. It's a double standard.
If GOM wants to be taken seriously they can't be doing unprofessional things when they are punishing people for being unprofessional.
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On December 16 2011 13:10 jinorazi wrote:
well, think of it this way. gom had an excuse, which didn't hurt especially the foreigners, it helps them.
naniwa had no excuse. naniwa was acting on his own and obviously, shit load of people got pissed.
people are getting pissed of this change because of connecting it with naniwa, not because of the uninformed change itself.
Naniwa probe rushing is not an excuse for GOM to fabricate rules and piss all over MLG, its fans and its players.
People can get over Naniwa being banned from Code S because of probe rushing, they'll be angry for a while, but it will die down. They could have just said, "We feel disrespected, Naniwa's behavior is unacceptable and therefor he is out of Code S".
But as others have said, instead GOM decided to make up rules and apply them retrospectively, in the process damaging MLG.
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On December 16 2011 13:14 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 13:09 rotegirte wrote:On December 16 2011 12:57 jinorazi wrote:On December 16 2011 12:52 rotegirte wrote:On December 16 2011 12:50 jinorazi wrote:On December 16 2011 12:47 rotegirte wrote:On December 16 2011 12:42 lOvRyooMak wrote:On December 16 2011 12:15 rotegirte wrote:On December 16 2011 12:08 hunts wrote:On December 16 2011 10:53 lOvRyooMak wrote:Hi im a korean living in korea.. I regularly visit korean sites playxp and thisisgame for sc2 There seems to be a lot of misscommunication and confusion overseas I dont see what the fuss is about regarding the format change To be exact the new 2012 gsl format was announced at night dec10th korean time, the night before the start of the blizzard Cup. So what if the format was changed before or after the blizzard cup? The gsl format was always changed every one or two seasons for improvement I remember seeing reactions by people here on TL - i like the new GSL Format! But i dont like the new GSTL format.. Etc Regarding the code S seeding change... As the MLG also clearly stated it is in all gomtv's right to change seeding however they please. Why can't you see that the seeding change was meant to give international players more opportunity in the GSL? The previous seeding would give the seed to the top placed players in the mlg regardless if it were a korean or not. Instead they decided to nominate top international players as candidates for the two seed spots, and the judges would select two probably based on various criteria. i.e personal reasons- not every player may wish to come play in korea. In this case as mentioned in gomtv's latest post sen.idra and naniwa were selected as candidates. But due to naniwa's conduct in the blizzard cup they decided to give it to sen and idra. The nominees and criteria were not announced prior to the decision because the criteria was probably not decided yet! Naniwa's misbehaviour made the decision easier for gom IMO. You have to understand that the gsl is still experimental. Gomtv knows there is room for improvement here and there and is constantly trying to change and develop their league. Making announcements before the system were solidified and decisions were made would make an even bigger confusion and possible shitstorm if it were changed everday. Yes it would be nice if gomtv could just post here on TL and explain ever little thing that is going on what they are discussing and wanting to change. But as you might have noticed the people at gomtv are not that good at english and there can only be misinterpretations here and there. I have been to the gomtv studio many times and what you must understand is that it is quite smaller than you may think. In fact its tiny compared to competitions like mlg or dreamhack. The whole gomtv staff only number about 20people. There are only limitations to what these 20people can do at omce. They cant be everywhere answering all questions here and there and making decisions at once. What i would really like to say is there is always a perfectly good explanation to everything.. Otherwise the korean community would have a bigger shitstorm. The last thing koreans want is something like kespa. instead of making blunt observations on misscommunication and Misinterpretations perhaps wait for a proper announcement by gom or maybe help on a better translation on korean articles before making a shitstorm out of nothing Thank you very much for that. Quoting it in hopes more people read it, it's a very well written post with many good points. I really wish more people would think straight rather than letting their emotions get the better of them and make them completely unreasonable and biased. I think with the naniwa incident GOM got caught between a rock and a hard place. If they did nothing, many of the koreans that were throwing a shitstorm would stop supporting them. If they took action, as you can see a lot of the naniwa fanboys decided to throw a shitstorm and stop supporting them. In the end as they are a korean based organization and there are far more koreans outraged at naniwas actions than there are nanniwa fans outraged at GOMs actions, I think they did the right thing both morally and for business purposes. I do wish things could've been a bit clearer as to what happened with the GSL/MLG exchange program with providennce, but I think it's starting to make sense now, I just wish more people would take the time to read up on what happened and try to understand it rather than coming here and flaming GOM without even reading the facts. It has little to do with "misunderstanding". When they want to punish NaNiwa, just say it as it is. "What NaNiwa did was wrong, he gets no Code S seed, period." Fanboys would be raging no matter what. Instead they climbed into a time machine and said "Remember the rules you agreed to and played under back in November in Providence? Right, forget them. We are changing the rules now, a month after the tournament finished". You don't do that- you could even call it fraud. Have you ever supported any other tournament to go call one of their previous winners and say "The money you should recieve for your last win, actually we now think you should only get half of it". What im saying is yes his prize was change The prize was changed because the seed format was chamged. Im only pointing out there is a good reason for the change-to give more opportunities It is a sacrifice naniwa was forced to make for the good of the gsl. Naniwa should be well credited for it. The change in seed format had nothing to do with blizzcup, naniwa and quantic have accepted it. Fans of naniwa can be angry.. But it wont change anything. Naniwa still had a chance for the code S seed being a candidate but gom eliminated Him from the candidate list due to blizzcup. End of story You can be angry as you like at gom for changing his prize and or taking his candidate position But im just pointing out it was an optimal decision for the tournament itself Please take your time and re-read my posts. Especially the long one. No one here discusses the change. It is a whole different matter. Many in TL actually find the new format really good, or at least a good improvement. It also doesn't matter whether NaNiwa get's Code S or not. I think you deliberately skipped 99% of my posts. Because that's another thing I had to repeat over and over. It is about changing rules afterwards. Imagine a test in school. Your teacher tells you: "draw a house". One week later he gives you the results of the test. And says: "By the way, I changed the rules of the test. The new goal is to draw a horse. You have 0 points, enjoy" What I am saying is, they can change their format. Just tell others about it before the tournament. And not after. i think you're making it a bigger deal than it actually is. especially when people are connecting it with naniwa. you're making it like they actually changed the prize pool, which would be significant but its not the same. So rewards to player performance in tournaments should be generally held subject to change, and tournament organizer's judgement will suffice on evaluating significance? depending on the situation, yes. in this case, the change was for the better. according earlier post, blizzard cup's seeding changed after blizzard cup's announcement (this was for the better also), where was everyone then? just saying, this is getting extra attention because of naniwa, not because changing rules are evil. It is a whole different matter to change rules after the completion of a tournament. At least it is getting my attention because throughout 3 different genres it is the first time I see people actually condone the fact that organizers change terms afterwards. So let it be clear: Players should generally be aware of the fact that rules, terms of conduct and announced prizes could be subject to change at any given point by the discretion of the tournament organizer, also retroactively applicable to any event of the same organizer they have ever participated in. This is your stance? no, unless such possibility was announced before hand and the players were aware. i'm just saying i dont think its big enough to cause such hate. it helps more than it causes harm.
It should have been done so it caused no harm. Naniwa is the first foreigner to win code S from MLG and then GOM changes the rules and says he didn't win it.
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Germany2859 Posts
On December 16 2011 13:14 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 13:09 rotegirte wrote:On December 16 2011 12:57 jinorazi wrote:On December 16 2011 12:52 rotegirte wrote:On December 16 2011 12:50 jinorazi wrote:On December 16 2011 12:47 rotegirte wrote:On December 16 2011 12:42 lOvRyooMak wrote:On December 16 2011 12:15 rotegirte wrote:On December 16 2011 12:08 hunts wrote:On December 16 2011 10:53 lOvRyooMak wrote:Hi im a korean living in korea.. I regularly visit korean sites playxp and thisisgame for sc2 There seems to be a lot of misscommunication and confusion overseas I dont see what the fuss is about regarding the format change To be exact the new 2012 gsl format was announced at night dec10th korean time, the night before the start of the blizzard Cup. So what if the format was changed before or after the blizzard cup? The gsl format was always changed every one or two seasons for improvement I remember seeing reactions by people here on TL - i like the new GSL Format! But i dont like the new GSTL format.. Etc Regarding the code S seeding change... As the MLG also clearly stated it is in all gomtv's right to change seeding however they please. Why can't you see that the seeding change was meant to give international players more opportunity in the GSL? The previous seeding would give the seed to the top placed players in the mlg regardless if it were a korean or not. Instead they decided to nominate top international players as candidates for the two seed spots, and the judges would select two probably based on various criteria. i.e personal reasons- not every player may wish to come play in korea. In this case as mentioned in gomtv's latest post sen.idra and naniwa were selected as candidates. But due to naniwa's conduct in the blizzard cup they decided to give it to sen and idra. The nominees and criteria were not announced prior to the decision because the criteria was probably not decided yet! Naniwa's misbehaviour made the decision easier for gom IMO. You have to understand that the gsl is still experimental. Gomtv knows there is room for improvement here and there and is constantly trying to change and develop their league. Making announcements before the system were solidified and decisions were made would make an even bigger confusion and possible shitstorm if it were changed everday. Yes it would be nice if gomtv could just post here on TL and explain ever little thing that is going on what they are discussing and wanting to change. But as you might have noticed the people at gomtv are not that good at english and there can only be misinterpretations here and there. I have been to the gomtv studio many times and what you must understand is that it is quite smaller than you may think. In fact its tiny compared to competitions like mlg or dreamhack. The whole gomtv staff only number about 20people. There are only limitations to what these 20people can do at omce. They cant be everywhere answering all questions here and there and making decisions at once. What i would really like to say is there is always a perfectly good explanation to everything.. Otherwise the korean community would have a bigger shitstorm. The last thing koreans want is something like kespa. instead of making blunt observations on misscommunication and Misinterpretations perhaps wait for a proper announcement by gom or maybe help on a better translation on korean articles before making a shitstorm out of nothing Thank you very much for that. Quoting it in hopes more people read it, it's a very well written post with many good points. I really wish more people would think straight rather than letting their emotions get the better of them and make them completely unreasonable and biased. I think with the naniwa incident GOM got caught between a rock and a hard place. If they did nothing, many of the koreans that were throwing a shitstorm would stop supporting them. If they took action, as you can see a lot of the naniwa fanboys decided to throw a shitstorm and stop supporting them. In the end as they are a korean based organization and there are far more koreans outraged at naniwas actions than there are nanniwa fans outraged at GOMs actions, I think they did the right thing both morally and for business purposes. I do wish things could've been a bit clearer as to what happened with the GSL/MLG exchange program with providennce, but I think it's starting to make sense now, I just wish more people would take the time to read up on what happened and try to understand it rather than coming here and flaming GOM without even reading the facts. It has little to do with "misunderstanding". When they want to punish NaNiwa, just say it as it is. "What NaNiwa did was wrong, he gets no Code S seed, period." Fanboys would be raging no matter what. Instead they climbed into a time machine and said "Remember the rules you agreed to and played under back in November in Providence? Right, forget them. We are changing the rules now, a month after the tournament finished". You don't do that- you could even call it fraud. Have you ever supported any other tournament to go call one of their previous winners and say "The money you should recieve for your last win, actually we now think you should only get half of it". What im saying is yes his prize was change The prize was changed because the seed format was chamged. Im only pointing out there is a good reason for the change-to give more opportunities It is a sacrifice naniwa was forced to make for the good of the gsl. Naniwa should be well credited for it. The change in seed format had nothing to do with blizzcup, naniwa and quantic have accepted it. Fans of naniwa can be angry.. But it wont change anything. Naniwa still had a chance for the code S seed being a candidate but gom eliminated Him from the candidate list due to blizzcup. End of story You can be angry as you like at gom for changing his prize and or taking his candidate position But im just pointing out it was an optimal decision for the tournament itself Please take your time and re-read my posts. Especially the long one. No one here discusses the change. It is a whole different matter. Many in TL actually find the new format really good, or at least a good improvement. It also doesn't matter whether NaNiwa get's Code S or not. I think you deliberately skipped 99% of my posts. Because that's another thing I had to repeat over and over. It is about changing rules afterwards. Imagine a test in school. Your teacher tells you: "draw a house". One week later he gives you the results of the test. And says: "By the way, I changed the rules of the test. The new goal is to draw a horse. You have 0 points, enjoy" What I am saying is, they can change their format. Just tell others about it before the tournament. And not after. i think you're making it a bigger deal than it actually is. especially when people are connecting it with naniwa. you're making it like they actually changed the prize pool, which would be significant but its not the same. So rewards to player performance in tournaments should be generally held subject to change, and tournament organizer's judgement will suffice on evaluating significance? depending on the situation, yes. in this case, the change was for the better. according earlier post, blizzard cup's seeding changed after blizzard cup's announcement (this was for the better also), where was everyone then? just saying, this is getting extra attention because of naniwa, not because changing rules are evil. It is a whole different matter to change rules after the completion of a tournament. At least it is getting my attention because throughout 3 different genres it is the first time I see people actually condone the fact that organizers change terms afterwards. So let it be clear: Players should generally be aware of the fact that rules, terms of conduct and announced prizes could be subject to change at any given point by the discretion of the tournament organizer, also retroactively applicable to any event of the same organizer they have ever participated in. This is your stance? no, unless such possibility was announced before hand and the players were aware. i'm just saying i dont think its big enough to cause such hate. it helps more than it causes harm.
and that's the whole difference in both our opinions. i'm speaking of the argument of principle, since organizer dishonesty has historically been one of the biggest problem in any esport at any time. i already said that i don't believe GOM did it intentionally. but at the same time i believe it was right to punish CoCa, this matter is no different. if one would read my post history, my point is "that's not right GOM. say things how they are, don't invent stuff"
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On December 16 2011 12:24 Skyreaper wrote:Edit : Blizzard Cup Interview with Pro-players
Omg Naniwa... i relly can't understand why do he has so much fans oO
I laughed on stephano : D as a French fan i'm kinda upset that he lost in groupstage, but i'm pretty impressed on how mouch he's repescted by koreans ^^
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if naniwa did win code s seed, it have have been revoked.
if naniwa did not win code s seed, the consideration would be revoked.
gom worded it differently, same result.
this is what some you guys are fighting over.
regardless of rule change, naniwa would not be in code s.
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Germany2859 Posts
On December 16 2011 13:21 jinorazi wrote:
if naniwa did win code s seed, it have have been revoked.
if naniwa did not win code s seed, the consideration would be revoked.
gom worded it differently, same result.
this is what some you guys are fighting over.
regardless of rule change, naniwa would not be in code s.
how flexible are your morals, really?
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i hate when things like this happen, even if it doesnt cause any harm, the fact that it was secret and no one was told just stinks of suspiciousness, and makes GOM look bad.
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On December 16 2011 13:23 rotegirte wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 13:21 jinorazi wrote:
if naniwa did win code s seed, it have have been revoked.
if naniwa did not win code s seed, the consideration would be revoked.
gom worded it differently, same result.
this is what some you guys are fighting over.
regardless of rule change, naniwa would not be in code s. how flexible are your morals, really?
i dont understand the question...
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On December 16 2011 13:23 rotegirte wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 13:21 jinorazi wrote:
if naniwa did win code s seed, it have have been revoked.
if naniwa did not win code s seed, the consideration would be revoked.
gom worded it differently, same result.
this is what some you guys are fighting over.
regardless of rule change, naniwa would not be in code s. how flexible are your morals, really?
Apparently he considers hypocritical behavior to be fine
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Germany2859 Posts
On December 16 2011 13:24 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 13:23 rotegirte wrote:On December 16 2011 13:21 jinorazi wrote:
if naniwa did win code s seed, it have have been revoked.
if naniwa did not win code s seed, the consideration would be revoked.
gom worded it differently, same result.
this is what some you guys are fighting over.
regardless of rule change, naniwa would not be in code s. how flexible are your morals, really? i dont understand the question...
you evaluate the righteousness of an action by it's outcome. that means the goal validates any means
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On December 16 2011 13:04 eshlow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 12:59 jinorazi wrote:On December 16 2011 12:54 eshlow wrote:
rote, you shoulda just quoted my post instead of making an analogy. :p
Basically,
1. GOM does not notify that they are changing the rules of code S.
2. MLG, and foreign fans, and Naniwa and other players are under the impression top 3 of non-code S at providence will get code S spot.
3. GOM says this is not true and that Naniwa was only in consideration, in their recently released statement. Thus, retrospectively changing the rules.
This is unprofessional to change the rules after the fact BECAUSE they didn't notify MLG (whom they have a partnership with) and the foreign fans, and the players who were all under the impression that Naniwa had a code S spot.
If we are going to get on Naniwa's case for being unprofessional, EVERYONE should ALSO be getting on GOM's case for being unprofessional by retroactively changing their own rules without notifying anyone.
It's airtight logic. There's no way anyone should be arguing the opposite side.
edit:
Note that changing the rules is fine. Notifying MLG, the fans, etc. of the changed rules IS professional and fine. The fact that they did not do this, and then came out with a statement that is contrary WITHOUT TELLING US THEY CHANGED THE RULES is blatantly unprofessional. its been done before, where was the fuss then? no need to answer, just saying. but a few posts this page and last page seems to sum up the situation well. there's really no need for hate and pointing fingers and blaming someone. People have thrown games before. Where's the fuss then? The fact is if we are going to hold Naniwa to a professional standard here, then anything to do with the current situation in regards to his being labeled "unprofessional" then the accusers (in this case GOM) should not be unprofessional in their actions either. No one likes hypocrites.
As an aside, I hate the argument of "I know some other guy who got away with it, why can't I?". Whether or not someone else got punished for something or not has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not you (or someone else) did something wrong and/or should be punished.
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On December 16 2011 13:20 RetoX wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 12:24 Skyreaper wrote:Edit : Blizzard Cup Interview with Pro-players Omg Naniwa... i relly can't understand why do he has so much fans oO I laughed on stephano : D as a French fan i'm kinda upset that he lost in groupstage, but i'm pretty impressed on how mouch he's repescted by koreans ^^
lol-ed at naniwa. i want nestea to be less angry. after wad u did u just made it worse and mc rly showed how bad carriers were against drg lmao
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On December 16 2011 13:21 jinorazi wrote:
if naniwa did win code s seed, it have have been revoked.
if naniwa did not win code s seed, the consideration would be revoked.
gom worded it differently, same result.
this is what some you guys are fighting over.
regardless of rule change, naniwa would not be in code s.
agreed 
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still the same cyclic argument in the end yet no one can still answer why MLG was not obligated to keep up their end of the bargain of paying and seeding 4 koreans directly into championship play (MVP trip payed for by quantic) when this same condition is listed with the ones that says GSL should award a code s spot.
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EPT
