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On December 16 2011 04:40 HomeWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 04:32 Rorschach wrote:On December 16 2011 04:28 HomeWorld wrote:On December 16 2011 04:20 Rorschach wrote:
So basically MLG knew nothing about the format change? Just wow...
Either way pretty shitty on GOM's part to not notify them after it was advertised all over the place that Nani would be given a code S spot.
The whole situation makes upset. I think most of us can say without doubt that Naniwa not receiving the code S spot has to do with his Nestea game/drama at the blizzard cup.
Gom has had multiple opportunities and plenty of time to correct MLG and the community if indeed Naniwa was not to receive a code S spot from his Providence placement.
Tasteosis even stated on GSL that he had secured a code S spot!
I for one see through the bullshit. What Naniwa did was childish and was poor sportsmanship BUT he didn't break any rules as far as we know, just poor decision making. What GOM has done is far worse though IMO.
TL dr: Two wrongs don't make a right....
I agree with you one some parts. Still, we do not want to punish the little guy and yet have the big bad wolf walk out unharmed  As I've said so far, the hole Naniwa stuff smells a lot and I cannot blame that guy for it, but when speaking about GOM, well there's another kind of meal, a juicy one. No, not every rule has to be written out... Conduct and good sportsmanship are something that you think would go without saying HOWEVER if Gom doesn't want to create a shitstorm (such as denying Nani his code S spot) it would be in their best interest to have such rules in place for the future....... Rules needs to be written on a god damn piece of paper, that's how things works. Without this imagine how our legal system would be .. death sentence for someone that jaywalked, probation for a serial killer ... all the weird stuff. No, GOM have no excuse for enforcing a rule that never existed. Yes, such rules are good in the future, but do not punish a guy for subjective reason. Guess our pro-gaming scene needs to wake up a little, from what I know so far there isn't anywhere stated what the rights of a player are (common sense stuff).
It's called common sense not to fuck over the guy running the show if you want to be invited back. Playing in GSL is not a right, regardless of how good you are. I honestly think they went easy on him because he is so good.
There isn't any country, job, or society that has a rule against everything fucked up you can do, or remotely close. The US has too many overlapping rules and it just bogs down the legal system, it's not a good thing.
Now please sign on the dotted line to acknowledge that you are willing to play the games that we invited you to and you already agreed to play.
It's ridiculous.
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No, no, and no. Nani's actions have not AT ALL influenced any progamer's mindset nor changed the outcome of the tournament. NaNi and NesTea were out of the tournament anyway, and playing this useless game would not have changed ANY thing. Coup bas by GOM, I'm deeply disappointed by the "most prestigious" SCII organisation. Maturity, hello?
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I like this statement very much. I'm happy we can put all the discussions to rest. Naniwa has apologised, GOMtv has given a statement. Let's put this to rest.
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On December 16 2011 04:53 iNbluE wrote:
No, no, and no. Nani's actions have not AT ALL influenced any progamer's mindset nor changed the outcome of the tournament. NaNi and NesTea were out of the tournament anyway, and playing this useless game would not have changed ANY thing. Coup bas by GOM, I'm deeply disappointed by the "most prestigious" SCII organisation. Maturity, hello?
So you really think filling 15-40 minutes of air time is useless to gomtv? or progamers that need to make a living?
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On December 16 2011 04:49 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 04:40 HomeWorld wrote:On December 16 2011 04:32 Rorschach wrote:On December 16 2011 04:28 HomeWorld wrote:On December 16 2011 04:20 Rorschach wrote:
So basically MLG knew nothing about the format change? Just wow...
Either way pretty shitty on GOM's part to not notify them after it was advertised all over the place that Nani would be given a code S spot.
The whole situation makes upset. I think most of us can say without doubt that Naniwa not receiving the code S spot has to do with his Nestea game/drama at the blizzard cup.
Gom has had multiple opportunities and plenty of time to correct MLG and the community if indeed Naniwa was not to receive a code S spot from his Providence placement.
Tasteosis even stated on GSL that he had secured a code S spot!
I for one see through the bullshit. What Naniwa did was childish and was poor sportsmanship BUT he didn't break any rules as far as we know, just poor decision making. What GOM has done is far worse though IMO.
TL dr: Two wrongs don't make a right....
I agree with you one some parts. Still, we do not want to punish the little guy and yet have the big bad wolf walk out unharmed As I've said so far, the hole Naniwa stuff smells a lot and I cannot blame that guy for it, but when speaking about GOM, well there's another kind of meal, a juicy one. No, not every rule has to be written out... Conduct and good sportsmanship are something that you think would go without saying HOWEVER if Gom doesn't want to create a shitstorm (such as denying Nani his code S spot) it would be in their best interest to have such rules in place for the future....... Rules needs to be written on a god damn piece of paper, that's how things works. Without this imagine how our legal system would be .. death sentence for someone that jaywalked, probation for a serial killer ... all the weird stuff. No, GOM have no excuse for enforcing a rule that never existed. Yes, such rules are good in the future, but do not punish a guy for subjective reason. Guess our pro-gaming scene needs to wake up a little, from what I know so far there isn't anywhere stated what the rights of a player are (common sense stuff). It's called common sense not to fuck over the guy running the show if you want to be invited back. Playing in GSL is not a right, regardless of how good you are. I honestly think they went easy on him because he is so good. There isn't any country, job, or society that has a rule against everything fucked up you can do, or remotely close. The US has too many overlapping rules and it just bogs down the legal system, it's not a good thing. Now please sign on the dotted line to acknowledge that you are willing to play the games that we invited you to and you already agreed to play. It's ridiculous.
You say playing in the GSL is not a right, you are correct, HOWEVER Naniwa was invited to participate and/or had earned depending on who you believe. If he he indeed had received the spot in the tournament based on his Providence placement it was in fact owed to him.
If GOM was truly dedicated to making absolutely sure that their content would not have problems they would put in place rules and punishments as a way to enforce them.
example:
As it is now players are not allowed to say anything other than "GG" in the match.
If you don't want your players to BM or spouting profanities offending the viewers make a rule or have it in the players contracts. The caster are not supposed to curse on air. I am sure they are aware wheras I guarantee naniwa had no reason to think he would receive such consequences for his actions.
Its just common sense. Fail on Gom's part........
If I were a pro player I would still participate in the GSL but knowing that if I pissed the wrong people off I might end up fucked over, which is not how it should be if we are to be taken seriously as a sport...
What Naniwa did was poor sportsmanship, what GOM has done is just not professional.
And two wrongs don't make a right....
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On December 16 2011 04:44 diophan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 04:40 HomeWorld wrote:On December 16 2011 04:32 Rorschach wrote:On December 16 2011 04:28 HomeWorld wrote:On December 16 2011 04:20 Rorschach wrote:
So basically MLG knew nothing about the format change? Just wow...
Either way pretty shitty on GOM's part to not notify them after it was advertised all over the place that Nani would be given a code S spot.
The whole situation makes upset. I think most of us can say without doubt that Naniwa not receiving the code S spot has to do with his Nestea game/drama at the blizzard cup.
Gom has had multiple opportunities and plenty of time to correct MLG and the community if indeed Naniwa was not to receive a code S spot from his Providence placement.
Tasteosis even stated on GSL that he had secured a code S spot!
I for one see through the bullshit. What Naniwa did was childish and was poor sportsmanship BUT he didn't break any rules as far as we know, just poor decision making. What GOM has done is far worse though IMO.
TL dr: Two wrongs don't make a right....
I agree with you one some parts. Still, we do not want to punish the little guy and yet have the big bad wolf walk out unharmed As I've said so far, the hole Naniwa stuff smells a lot and I cannot blame that guy for it, but when speaking about GOM, well there's another kind of meal, a juicy one. No, not every rule has to be written out... Conduct and good sportsmanship are something that you think would go without saying HOWEVER if Gom doesn't want to create a shitstorm (such as denying Nani his code S spot) it would be in their best interest to have such rules in place for the future....... Rules needs to be written on a god damn piece of paper, that's how things works. Without this imagine how our legal system would be .. death sentence for someone that jaywalked, probation for a serial killer ... all the weird stuff. No, GOM have no excuse for enforcing a rule that never existed. Yes, such rules are good in the future, but do not punish a guy for subjective reason. Guess our pro-gaming scene needs to wake up a little, from what I know so far there isn't anywhere stated what the rights of a player are (common sense stuff). I am not sure how the legal system works in Romania, but in the US every single possible situation is not written down. You must often infer from general rules what to do in specific situations. Regardless, I think it's really silly to hold GOM to have their rules of professional conduct codified like the legal system of a country.
Like everywhere, the law is the law and you abide by it, if not, you get punished, if you did something that's morally questionable but there's no law that regulates such behavior you won't be punished, in the worst case you will have your public image tarnished (much like Naniwa's case).
Keep in mind, GOM isn't a bunch of "hey lets have some SC2 games streamed with some random ppls in it and try to get some money from it", it's a fully fledged business, and yes, strict rules should be in place and enforced, that's how a sane businesses should work, as a well oiled engine (with no hiccups - like Naniwa ). This is just common sense business practice (if you want to be successful)
PS: Common sense, you do not want a Romanian guy to remember you such basic stuff, also lets not involve our place of origin in this discussion since it is quite useless/pointless.
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On December 16 2011 04:10 Kazeyonoma wrote:Incase anyone missed this, but Sundance released an official statement regarding Providence Code S seed on reddit a few minutes ago: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/ne2jh/mlg_official_statement_as_requested/This is going to be posted on our site a little later today but I thought I'd start here since a lot of the speculation is coming from r/starcraft
Statement below-
The original agreement between MLG and GSL through the League Exchange Program (LXP) stated that the highest ranked player in the Top 3 from each MLG Pro Circuit event in 2011 who did not already have Code S status would be granted Code S status at GSL for one season.
With the announcement of the 2012 GSL season, their format changed and GSL changed the MLG Providence Code S invite to two spots at the GSL Blizzard Cup and Naniwa was awarded one of these spots. Unfortunately, the change was made without notification to MLG but it is within GSL's jurisdiction to adjust placement.
-sd
Edit: mlg official site says that providence was indeed included in the original league exchange so no one try to argue that.
This is not ok, regardless of the fact that Gom is of course allowed to change their own format they sure as hell should be informing their partners of stuff like that. MLG told Naniwa he earned a seed, mlg wrote articles claiming it as such and during the casting itself Tastosis talked about it since several players were in contention for the seed everyone thought existed. Can you imagine the devastation someone like Hero or Boxer would have felt if they though they'd won their way to code s only to be denied ( since the only free spots in the new format are the sponsored international spots). Certainly that misconception would have been cleared up faster by gom in thier cases but still they'd have a few hours maybe a few days of celebration before it's all ripped away because of a communication error.
This goes beyond the Naniwa debacle to the fact that Gom massively failed to notify MLG of a very important change in a business deal with potentially far reaching implications. I am not happy about this although I do not know how to appropraitely express my frustration.
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On December 16 2011 05:01 ladyumbra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 04:10 Kazeyonoma wrote:Incase anyone missed this, but Sundance released an official statement regarding Providence Code S seed on reddit a few minutes ago: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/ne2jh/mlg_official_statement_as_requested/This is going to be posted on our site a little later today but I thought I'd start here since a lot of the speculation is coming from r/starcraft
Statement below-
The original agreement between MLG and GSL through the League Exchange Program (LXP) stated that the highest ranked player in the Top 3 from each MLG Pro Circuit event in 2011 who did not already have Code S status would be granted Code S status at GSL for one season.
With the announcement of the 2012 GSL season, their format changed and GSL changed the MLG Providence Code S invite to two spots at the GSL Blizzard Cup and Naniwa was awarded one of these spots. Unfortunately, the change was made without notification to MLG but it is within GSL's jurisdiction to adjust placement.
-sd This is not ok, regardless of the fact that Gom is of course allowed to change their own format they sure as hell should be informing their partners of stuff like that. MLG told Naniwa he earned a seed, mlg wrote articles claiming it as such and during the casting itself Tastosis talked about it since several players were in contention for the seed everyone thought existed. Can you imagine the devastation someone like Hero or Boxer would have felt if they though they'd won their way to code s only to be denied ( since the only free spots in the new format are the sponsored international spots). Certainly that misconception would have been cleared up faster by gom in thier cases but still they'd have a few hours maybe a few days of celebration before it's all ripped away because of a communication error. This goes beyond the Naniwa debacle to the fact that Gom massively failed to notify MLG of a very important change in a business deal with potentially far reaching implications. I am not happy about this although I do not know how to appropraitely express my frustration.
Vote with your wallet as I will be doing....
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Btw, SC2 pro-gamers should create an association (you may call it syndicate) to represent their interest (and also enforce a code of conduct). If such entity existed we wouldn't had such monster threads on this forum
Why?, the whole sc2 stuff pro-gaming is a business already.
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The harm was already done, I guess their attempt of "Damage control" is kind of late.
A good example of how "professional" MLG and GOM are
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So MLG thought that Providence was supposed to still have the Code S seed. At the same time, they changed the terms for the 4 Korean invites that went to Providence. Due to a format change players were compensated on their trips only instead of being seeded into the championship pool as per their agreement. When GSL has a format change announced almost 2 months ago, they invited the Top 2 at Providence to an invitational with nearly as much prize money. Yes, GSL's change is much more drastic, but it is obvious the end year/2012 terms of this agreement weren't 100% written in black in white because both organizations had changes that didn't fall in line with the player exchange.
The worst part of this entire shitstorm is, that GSL was probably going to invite Naniwa as the Code S seed in February.
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On December 15 2011 23:17 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 23:10 Deadlyeye wrote:
tbh, i think that revoking a earned spot is out of line, a pro that cant count on the spot in code s that he won and pays a lot of money to come to korea for it... bad example.
Naniwa is a pro player, the match was without effect whatsoever, like a BO5 where u play the 5th game at a score of 3:1...
the community has to grow out of the idea that a professional player is an entertainer! if u get payed to play for 5 hours straight, well u play the time, but if we want a performance oriented league system this needs to stop.
a player needs to play the tournament, the casters need to make the (sometimes boring, sometimes rush/cheese) games fun.
theres not a single sport (i watch) wheres only topnotch matches, sometimes one dominates, somtimes both just play bad, thats true for basketball, football and all the others, why should starcraft be the only exception.
yes, i would have liked a epic match between nani and nestea, but both where out, why should a pro put all his effort into a match that doesent count anything, its not like he gets payed for more... well maybee from his sponsors, but thats another point. Yes, because nobody watches sports for entertainment. It is completely unrealistic for people to want to take enjoyment from such a thing. Here's a better question: why shouldn't a pro put all his effort into every televised match he plays? He has sponsors' names written on those little badges all over his shirt, sponsors who are greatly responsible for that pro being where he is and doing what he's doing. Do those sponsors want their representative half-assing it? I'm no mind-reader, but I'd guess the answer is no.
Then that's his team's and sponsors' business. It's not the job of a tournament to throw a hissy fit at a skilled player after they go along with a community that thrives on drama and blowing things out of proportion.
On December 16 2011 00:07 Trizzen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 00:02 dejvo wrote:
Don't know why you can't play the game how you want... so stupid to ban him. I don't know why anyone would watch players dick around in one of the most prestigious tournaments in the world.
GOM apologizes that your viewing experience was ruined by 1 out of 39 games in the tournament being a televised probe rush (which itself should have been entertaining because it had never happened before except for the response of commentators and GOM which misled you into thinking you were somehow betrayed).
You don't need any type of punishment to deter games like this. They are self-defeating in the long run. That's why they happen so rarely. But they're more likely to happen when you broadcast an inconsequential group stage match from the worst performing players of the tournament, who were already eliminated.
On December 16 2011 00:17 Skyreaper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 23:58 StarStruck wrote:On December 15 2011 23:55 Diizzy wrote:
purposely losing no matter what reason should always be prohibited. Then there would be a crap load of more players being punished. Formats and incentives have to be revised. Cannot force players. GOM already announced the plan for 2012 GSL with change in the format. Besides a few Korean players have been already punished and kicked out of GSL because they purposely lose the game.
Coca was punished by Slayers, not GOM. Also, the motivation was extremely different. There are at least three reasons to throw a game: player doesn't give a shit (no ulterior motive), player is trying to manipulate the format to help someone else advance (bad), player is trying to earn money by purposefully losing matches instead of winning matches (very bad).
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On December 16 2011 05:31 HomeWorld wrote:The harm was already done, I guess their attempt of "Damage control" is kind of late. A good example of how "professional" MLG and GOM are
yeah. the statement seems to say "they're allowed to do this, but it means that they're fucking liars"
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Meh, The original agreement between MLG and GSL through the League Exchange Program (LXP) stated that the highest ranked player in the Top 3 from each MLG Pro Circuit event in 2011, including Providence, who did not already have Code S status would be granted Code S status at GSL for one season.
With the recently announced changes to the 2012 GSL season, GSL switched the MLG Providence Code S invite to two spots at the GSL Blizzard Cup. Naniwa was awarded one of these spots. Unfortunately, the change was made without notification to MLG, but it is within GSL's jurisdiction to adjust placement.
Reading between the lines, how the hell a previous agreement can be completly thrown out into deep space by an "adjustment" without prior notification, only GSL can do such mind boggling things... poor Naniwa :S
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On December 16 2011 05:45 Jackle wrote:So MLG thought that Providence was supposed to still have the Code S seed. At the same time, they changed the terms for the 4 Korean invites that went to Providence. Due to a format change players were compensated on their trips only instead of being seeded into the championship pool as per their agreement. When GSL has a format change announced almost 2 months ago, they invited the Top 2 at Providence to an invitational with nearly as much prize money. Yes, GSL's change is much more drastic, but it is obvious the end year/2012 terms of this agreement weren't 100% written in black in white because both organizations had changes that didn't fall in line with the player exchange. The worst part of this entire shitstorm is, that GSL was probably going to invite Naniwa as the Code S seed in February.
Providence didn't have any format change. This format was known from the start of the MLG season.
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Let's all move on please. The GSL has every rite to revoke Naniwa's spot from Code S. What he did was completely inappropriate and stupid on a professional scene. Many teams in pro sports are certain at times they cannot make the playoffs, yet they still have to play the remainder of their games. They still try as hard as they can. Pathetic by Naniwa, appropriate by GOM in my opinion.
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good statement by GomTV and sums up very well why they decide to revoke the Code S. besides no professional athlete should be able or even throw a game without punishment as Coca is also a example of. and to all that cant agree with this, well try to understand the Korean culture and view of this instead of your own fan biased opnions
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So since now both GOM and MLG have stated that naniwas prize for 2nd in providence was the blizzcup invite and not a code S invite. And the code S spot he supposedly had was just GOM considering him for one of the 2 seeds they would be giving out, as a gift, you can all stop crying about them "taking away his code S" since he never actually had it, right?
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On December 16 2011 06:28 SpinmovE wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 05:45 Jackle wrote:So MLG thought that Providence was supposed to still have the Code S seed. At the same time, they changed the terms for the 4 Korean invites that went to Providence. Due to a format change players were compensated on their trips only instead of being seeded into the championship pool as per their agreement. When GSL has a format change announced almost 2 months ago, they invited the Top 2 at Providence to an invitational with nearly as much prize money. Yes, GSL's change is much more drastic, but it is obvious the end year/2012 terms of this agreement weren't 100% written in black in white because both organizations had changes that didn't fall in line with the player exchange. The worst part of this entire shitstorm is, that GSL was probably going to invite Naniwa as the Code S seed in February. Providence didn't have any format change. This format was known from the start of the MLG season.
Pretty sure "When GSL has a format change" means GSL not MLG...
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EPT
