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On December 13 2011 23:50 Tristran wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:44 Polox wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 13 2011 23:40 Tristran wrote:
I'm actually disappointed at the people (and even player/s) who think this isn't a big deal.
I noted Tylers response that showing their top play in unimportant games is not worth it, yes I agree. What I will also remind everyone of is that eSports as a whole is funded largely by Sponsors. Without sponsors none of this would happen. Do any of you honestly think that any sponsor would want their name all over the atrocious behavior and complete lack of game that was played by Naniwa?
If you want prize money. If you want big viewer numbers. If you want to be famous. Then you need to act professional. I'm sorry but there is absolutely no place for Naniwa's behavior in tournaments such as the GSL.
Edit: I will also add that customers will not want to pay if they suspect the games will be crap, or will have players they don't care about in. I wont get excited to see Naniwa in any list anymore. I wont be the only one. If Nestea started doing stupid crap like that do you think his name would bring any value to a player list? Hell no. Really? Is Rebecka Black proffesional? Your just making stuff up to suit you better. Some of the most famous people are definitly NOT proffesional. A handful of people can get away with shit like this, partly because the world is fucking stupid enough to like Rebecca Black. Yet its still retarded and I would rather my entertainment consist of GOOD games, not endless crap. The way to prevent more people thinking they can get away with this shit is to not allow the ones who try it in the first place to get away with it. Some people have atrocious attitudes on how things should work.
The fact that you actually believe that she got famous because some people like her, just makes you look stupid or you are a troll and therefore I won't take your post seriously in the future.
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Seems like a bit of an overreaction, even if cultural differences exist. I would have preferred he stick it out and play the game.
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A lot of people are saying that Naniwa was invited to this tournament, but in fact he qualified for it through his own efforts. He hasn't been handed anything.
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Well he is right, It didnt matter if he would win or lose. He would only waste time.
For the viewer on the other hand it does matter majorly cus they dont get to see Nani vs Nestea Rival
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On December 13 2011 23:46 quancer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:42 snailz wrote:On December 13 2011 23:40 Tristran wrote:
I'm actually disappointed at the people (and even player/s) who think this isn't a big deal.
I noted Tylers response that showing their top play in unimportant games is not worth it, yes I agree. What I will also remind everyone of is that eSports as a whole is funded largely by Sponsors. Without sponsors none of this would happen. Do any of you honestly think that any sponsor would want their name all over the atrocious behavior and complete lack of game that was played by Naniwa?
If you want prize money. If you want big viewer numbers. If you want to be famous. Then you need to act professional. I'm sorry but there is absolutely no place for Naniwa's behavior in tournaments such as the GSL. sponsors love publicity shit like this brings publicity sponsor actually get to see their investment pay off naniwa remains bad guy, life goes on everybody happy... No, everybody is not happy. Smart investors understand this sort of stupid drama and unprofessionalism undermines the integrity of the game and threatens its long term sustainability. Do you really think sponsors are as so stupid and short-sighted as to think a short-term spike like this is always a positive thing? Anyway, the whole "No such thing as bad publicity" line is a lie. Ask any publicist and they'll tell you what the difference is, and how important it is to avoid bad publicity. Think for yourselves, goddammit.
investors don't care about game's long term sustainability, they care about their exposure to their respective markets via that game (and right now the game is bringing them desired attention, so all is good)
on the other hand if the game itself suffers because short-term spikes like these are negative thing, the investors (sponsors) will just jump to the next game that has their "wanted demographics" (hard to translate this into english for me, sorry)
but the game wont suffer, dont worry. you wouldnt be here right now if it wasnt for Naniwa, discussing starcraft2, its leagues and players, and their sponsors. so it's a good thing, relax.
also for the last paragraph you made: you're not a publicist, nor am i. i also doubt you know any professional publcist, so it's silly for us two to discuss if "no such thing as bad publicity" is a lie ;-) while i agree that there actually is bad kind of publicity, this is definately not it. someone mentioned tiger woods sex scandal, that would be it ;-)
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People who thinks this is ok absolutely fails to understand the east asian perspective.
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On December 13 2011 23:49 decerto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:45 dafunk wrote:On December 13 2011 23:42 snailz wrote:On December 13 2011 23:40 Tristran wrote:
I'm actually disappointed at the people (and even player/s) who think this isn't a big deal.
I noted Tylers response that showing their top play in unimportant games is not worth it, yes I agree. What I will also remind everyone of is that eSports as a whole is funded largely by Sponsors. Without sponsors none of this would happen. Do any of you honestly think that any sponsor would want their name all over the atrocious behavior and complete lack of game that was played by Naniwa?
If you want prize money. If you want big viewer numbers. If you want to be famous. Then you need to act professional. I'm sorry but there is absolutely no place for Naniwa's behavior in tournaments such as the GSL. sponsors love publicity shit like this brings publicity sponsor actually get to see their investment pay off naniwa remains bad guy, life goes on everybody happy... You re delusional if you think sponsors love that kind of publicity. Its like saying Tiger Woods sex scandal was good for his sponsors. On December 13 2011 23:42 Gowerly wrote:
To all the people throwing sport analogies around:
Football (soccer) teams routinely throw out a reserve/B team whenever there's a game they don't care about. sending out a B team is like going for a fun strategy that still has a chance to win you the game. You re out of your mind if you think probe rushing and playing with a B team is the same thing. Well say if Andorra have a euro quals game in 1 week and they have a friendly(a game with 0 consequence) with Brazil this week and Brazil really wants to win for whatever reason like nestea did, Andorra sending out their b has probably the same chance of winning as a probe rush. Its quite easy to draw fairly exact parallels that arn't made a big deal out of in sports
But they still fucking play the game.
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To be honest Naniwa did screw with the Koreans but honestly, who gives a ****? I don't see Quantic taking any harsh steps towards him because of this. That would be silly! Koreans can do what they want but in the end Naniwa will continue being awesome in the rest of the world.
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Well if Koreans feel offended by Naniwa, it's their problem.
I bet that NaNiWa wonders some times wtf is he doing in Korea playing sc2 every minute of his life.
Why should he play if he has no chance to advance in the tournament and no desire to win vs NesTea in a meaningless game?
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Can you just shut your goddamn mouth on that. Idra didnt even attend a groupstage of a recent tournament.
They searched the king of kings? NEITHER Naniwa nor Nestea had a shot at it anymore, both were out. Its not even a reasonable argument. Naniwa gave everything, he fell out and he faced it. SO WHAT.
My God, i really didn't think this community was like this.. its just sad tbh.. OH BAN NANIWA FROM CODE S BAN HIM FROM EVERYTHING.. next somebody says lets kill naniwa for losing in a tournament (NOT ON PURPOSE) and not showing the fans a great game. This article and the comments are so full of hate that it really disgusts me.
Pros have to show the fans a great game to their best abilities? 1/1/1, 4gate, 6pool... LETS BAN EVERYONE WHO USED THIS CAUSE IT WASNT THEIR BEST AND IT DIDNT PRODUCE EXCITING GAMES...?
Seriously calm the fuck down =) and dont make a mountain out of nothing.. my god..
WTF
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On December 13 2011 23:52 mcmartini wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:49 SoylentCreep wrote:On December 13 2011 23:46 mcmartini wrote:On December 13 2011 23:42 SoylentCreep wrote:On December 13 2011 23:39 mcmartini wrote:On December 13 2011 23:38 SoylentCreep wrote:On December 13 2011 23:35 Neotik wrote:On December 13 2011 23:26 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On December 13 2011 23:12 zul wrote:
Naniwa responds on twitter: "apparently people got upset when i probe rushed nestea, the game was pointless and it couldnt change anything in the tournament."
people who bought the HD Pass just to see good games from him, will not approve of this behavior. The people who bought the HD Pass knew the format of the tournament and knew that it allowed for inconsequential games. Without the incentive of winning a tournament, progamers should not try to win. No one is good enough to waste their best effort on inconsequential games, especially with how many major tournaments there are nowadays. Whatever the best strategy Naniwa had in mind for the game, he should not use it. What irrational people want and expect is for the players to put on a false show of a competition, where they both seem to be trying enough for viewers to successfully suspend their disbelief. Such people don't constitute a significant enough part of the community to justify this huge reaction. this. I don't think people are focusing enough on the circumstances that allowed this to happen: a faulty and confusing tournament format. Sure Naniwa is known to BM, but not placing any of the blame on the tourney organizers is a bit delusional. Naniwa knew the format beforehand...everybody knew. He could have declined. But just giving up as soon as there's no way to win at a faultily organized tournament is just unprofessional. How do you know he didn't decline and was forced to play anyway? For the record, Code S Up and Down always had inconsequential games not being played, I see no reason why it shouldn't have been the same for this tournament. Yeah right. You qualified for the probably most prestigous( or at least hardest to get in ) tournament of the year and you decline because you don't like the format. I'm pretty sure that's it--- you're a genius. I quite clearly meant decline to play the game vs Nestea, as my next sentence shows. The sarcasm and rudeness is noted. And I cleary meant to decline playing in the tournament. See? That's exactly what i meant when i said that his behavior is unprofessional. "No chance to win teh moneyz? Awww fuck it, i don't give a shit!" Attitudes like that are bad for e-sports, and will not help e-sports getting accepted as a true profession. I guess we both made mistakes in interpreting eachothers posts. Sorry.
No problem. I was being a bit rude, too. I apologize. But I still firmly believe in the future of e-sports and that is exactly why i make a big deal out of this whole thing.
Also: People should discuss the incident and not the obviously blown-up article.
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On December 13 2011 23:55 MildSeven wrote:
People who thinks this is ok absolutely fails to understand the east asian perspective.
Well, he's not Korean, and it's an international tournament, so?
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I think it's just as unprofessional to say that someone who has devoted all of their time to playing games for a living doesn't deserve to be a progamer.
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When Idra no-gg's Kas in DH (an exemple beetwin hundreds), or insulting his opponent during his streamed ladder training ("Awful player", "He is just very very bad", "Gay tactic, asshole", etc....), it's "not a big deal" according to most of you.
Why is it a big deal with Naniwa?
Both have very bad manners or it's not a big deal for both, but making a public trial only to Naniwa is hardly unfair.
Again and again on TL (or reddit), "Two weights, two scales".
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Seriously? Yes, that was probably a stupid move from Naniwa, considering the flak he's taken recently. Should he be punished? No. Did he break any rules? I sincerely hope there are no such rules. "You have to play your best, no matter what is at stake". How could such a rule ever be enforced?
If this is indeed the reactions of the Korean scene, it feels like a culture clash thing. But I feel that just as foreigners have to adjust to the Korean scene, they have to adjust to the fact that the scene is growing on a global scale, and I don't think that the future of SC2 esports will be limited to South Korea.
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On December 13 2011 23:26 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:12 zul wrote:
Naniwa responds on twitter: "apparently people got upset when i probe rushed nestea, the game was pointless and it couldnt change anything in the tournament."
people who bought the HD Pass just to see good games from him, will not approve of this behavior. The people who bought the HD Pass knew the format of the tournament and knew that it allowed for inconsequential games. Without the incentive of winning a tournament, progamers should not try to win. No one is good enough to waste their best effort on inconsequential games, especially with how many major tournaments there are nowadays. Whatever the best strategy Naniwa had in mind for the game, he should not use it. What irrational people want and expect is for the players to put on a false show of a competition, where they both seem to be trying enough for viewers to successfully suspend their disbelief. Such people don't constitute a significant enough part of the community to justify this huge reaction.
^ What tyler said.
You people are absolutely full of shit and massively self entitled. The first and foremost reason ANYONE plays this game, is for themselves. Whether for money, for fun, or for some other reason. I certainly play this game for fun, and nobody, absolutley nobody, is able to force me to play it to "entertain them". I don't care whether you dropped 1,000 dollars bettting on the game, or paid 30 dollars for a vod of it, the game is what is is. Players should always have the right to forfeit their matches. It's absolutley absurd to REQUIRE someone to play an actual match. Now, if you have rules in place to penalize someone for not playing a match, then by all means, go ahead and give him punishment. However, those rules dont' exist, so get off your high horse, he didn't do anything wrong.
I've thrown games on ladder before, I've had at least 20 games, where I was in a bad mood, and saw the 9th protoss in a row, said fuck it, and just left. Somtimes you don't want to play a game for whatever reason, and expecting someone, who is one of the most exclusively competitive players in our community, to play a game he gives no shits about, for YOUR benefit, and when he doesn't you bitch and moan about how slighted you are? How self entitled can you get?
As for the actual game itself. Do you know what my reaction was? I laughed. I thought it was a funny strat to throw out in a throw away game. If it was Huk it might of been a mothership rush, if it was TLO it would of been an 8 Rax. WHo the fuck are you to decided what's a funny acceptable joke strat, and what's not? Just because the weird thing happened at 4 seconds instead of 4 minutes doesn't make it any less or any more of a joke strat. He did something mildly entertaining instead of playing a match that could of looked like any other shitty 2 base all in. Would you have been happier if it had just been a straight forfeit? Mind you, he probably asked for just that. You're not entitled to an epic Nestea vs Naniwa rivalry game, any more then I was entitled to seeing a cool MVP vs Hero match, that ended up being a stupid 3 rax scv pull.
As many others has mentioned, there have been numerous cases of things like this, whether its the Stephano/bratok, or Stephano/cloud thing, or the Idra IPL3 group stages. People throw matches for various reasonns, and as long as its within the rules and not in some sort of gambling/matchfixing reason, then its perfectly acceptable. Just because you didn't get to watch your shitty starcraft game, doesn't mean punishments should be handed because you feel "disrespected", when you certainly shouldn't even feel that way.
Having said this, I'm in no way a fan of Naniwa, I never have been. I don't like his play and think its one dimensional, and not nearly macro oriented for my taste, and personally I think he's a douche. But this incident has absolutely know bearing on that, and what he did is absolutely acceptable. I do feel a bit bat for Quantic, as they hyped the match 5 minutes before it began, then had to facepalm at the result. But thats between Naniwa and Quantic, it's absolutely none of your spectator business. It was however, a missed opportunity for Naniwa to show a good game, but missed opportunities are everywhere for most progamers.
This article is blatantly biased, and crowd reactions obviously weren't like that. It's fairly obvious Naniwa and the MVP team never got along in the first place, and is probably another reason why he shifted away from Complexity, so I'm not surprised they are the ones bitching about this. Whereas most of the other reactions seem to....LOL WTF WAS THAT. I don't even know why this article was posted in the first place, which is the fault of thisisgame, and not the translator/OP.
You need to quit blowing up drama just because you think Naniwa is an assclown.
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Very immature from Naniwa. How can you have respect for this guy after he acts like a kid throwing a tantrum after losing some games? It's been said before, but just because you cant win the tournament doesn't mean you don't have a responsibility to your sponsors and fans to play your best every game. Shameful.
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To those who are painting us as hating Naniwa as a whole stop it. The Korean community is also divided over matter much like TL and reddit. Most agree what Naniwa did stupid but some people like me think this whole thing is beyond ridiculous. I mean this article is so biased and lacks in objectivity that I can't take it serious. All it does is inflame the community due it's biased words.
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I wonder why naniwa chose to do this. I can only assume it was because he did not want to give away any build order or strategy for future use.
anyway, not the smartest move but what can you do.
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Overreacting much? Meh, I'm getting fed up with all this drama. You can barely find a thread in a general forum where no one freaks out about something. Blah...
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EPT
