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[NASL] New Maps Discussion - Page 3

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FoxyMayhem
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
624 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-07 20:16:46
December 07 2011 20:15 GMT
#41
Fishgle, I think the three maps selected here could become a part of the UMP. Hopefully. Add the ones chosen here to those the favorites from TLmapping contest and use that as the foundation for the UMP.

For instance, let's say Cloud Kingdom, Sanctuary, and Haven's Lagoon are recognized by players and the community as the cream of the crop from the TLMC. Combine them with Artifice, Ohana, and Damage Inc, and you have 6 fresh maps for the pool. Add in some more familiar maps (Shattered Temple, Antiga Shipyard, Tal'Darim Altar, Crevasse) and we have a pretty epic map pool, yeah? We might need some more familiar ones in there, or maybe one less TPW with one more from the TLMC, but you get the idea.
VoirDire
Profile Joined February 2009
Sweden1923 Posts
December 07 2011 20:43 GMT
#42
TPW Concrete Dreams

A rush distances of 125 is too short. (Steppes of War has 130 by comparison.) I'd say ~140 (Xel'naga) is a healthy number to aim at.
4 "free" bases bodes for very passive game play.
Looks hard to FE on for PvZ.
No real flanking options for a close position tank push.

TPW Lunar Station

A terran players dream: A gold base, close to the main, in the push direction. And make it 1 gas and rocks just so other races don't have any use for it. Other than that, looks fine.

TPW Ohana

Looks great actually. My favorite from the TL/Blizzard contest. My only complaint would be the defensive Xel'naga towers.

TPW Emerald Jungle

Looks decent if it's cross pos only, but I don't think you should make maps with forced positions deliberately. It's bad design. Force spawn points in blizzard maps are attempts to salvage imbalanced maps. Other than that, the high ground forward position almost covers 5 bases which encourages boring turtley play. I don't mind the gold too much since it's not in the push direction. It would be better without it though.

TPW Overgrown

I take it it's a remake of shakuras with similar forced spawns? Might not be so bad. I like shakuras except for the late game map split scenario which this maps seems to have fixed. It might be a bit too large though.

TPW Damage Inc

Two separate forced cross positions? The SW/NE spawns looks bad. No natural ramp which is bad for PvP and a "free" 3rd is kinda boring. SW/NE positions is slightly better, but what's with the random mineral line block? It seems like it's only purpose is to give tanks protection when sieging the natural. Also you get 3 easiliy defended bases for the prize of 1 when you take the other spawn points. Just a weird map.

TPW Odyssey

Narrow. If terran only manages to push the small distance between the two watch towers, he'd be in a very, very advantageous position.

TPW Artifice

Many easy expos but also very open. I'd give it a shot. Might be too close rush distance though.

TPW One Must Fall

Looks a lot like Jungle Basin and might have the same problems (terran pushes through the middle). Not sure though.
NullCurrent
Profile Joined November 2010
Sweden245 Posts
December 07 2011 21:08 GMT
#43
On December 08 2011 05:43 VoirDire wrote:
TPW Concrete Dreams

A rush distances of 125 is too short. (Steppes of War has 130 by comparison.) I'd say ~140 (Xel'naga) is a healthy number to aim at.
4 "free" bases bodes for very passive game play.
Looks hard to FE on for PvZ.
No real flanking options for a close position tank push.


I hope this does not come as too defensive, as I made (most of) the map. But I feel like I have to correct a few things, still if you think something in my reasoning is wrong, tell me, that will make me a better mapmaker (I hope).

Rush Distance
The rush distance is not so short, Lefix ran the analyzer without support for the large rocks, so the rocks are not taken into consideration at all. So the rush distances are rock-less rush distances.

Rush distance close: 116 AU
Far: 142 AU
(natural to natural, main to main is not so important imho, as the main is just a normal standard main, it is not placed like on Scrap Station)
(And no, not Astronomical Units, Analyzer Units, 2 AU = 1 supply depot side)

Xel'Naga Caverns has 118 in natural to natural rush distance, so I don't think that is a problem at all, because the natural choke is much narrower in Concrete Dreams compared to Xel'Naga Caverns.

4 "Free" bases

I don't think the bases are really *that* free. Look at Terminus, there you have a free third (if it is the variant without the rocks), which is easier to protect than the 3rd on Concrete Dreams.

Look at the analyzer: + Show Spoiler [Analyzer] +
[image loading]

If you go to 4 bases, you have a quite large area to protect, unless the rocks are not broken down. If the rocks are broken down, you have to traverse a lot of terrain to move from your preferred "staging area" outside the main-hugging 4th to the backdoor for your third.
Still, the third is safer than on most maps.

Fast Expand as P
You can fast expand in PvZ, not too sure how viable it is, but you cannot wall so you protect the 3rd without being very vulnerable.
+ Show Spoiler [Forge FE walloff Size example] +
[image loading]


Finally I won't comment really on the tank push, as that is something I'll have to look at replays to really determine. I have striven to try to make tank-pushes possible, but still defendable. Not sure if I succeeded.

The Planetary Workshop - TPW - Mapmaking Team
ledarsi
Profile Joined September 2010
United States475 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-07 21:42:56
December 07 2011 21:38 GMT
#44
Rather than comment on the balance of the maps, seeing as I have not personally played on any of them, I think there is a more important point to be made regarding the NASL's map pool system. I propose a radical revamping of the map pool system for the NASL which will allow them to accommodate maps from other tournaments and also a diverse pool of other maps. Spoiler for length.

+ Show Spoiler +
The current most widely adopted system is to have a relatively tight map pool which gets a lot of work, and players are given the ability to remove specific maps. However this means that the same maps generally appear over and over again, and furthermore it means that the tournament must decide between having unique maps which players must practice for specially, and having maps which many prominent players are familiar with. Also an important consideration is the need to have a system to work in new maps gradually. A single new map added to a veto system has a tremendous impact on the sort of maps players will play on over and over again in the tournament.

Another system is to have a "loser's pick" system where the loser of the previous game in a series decides the next game in the series. However once again this free pick requires a small map pool since both players need to be prepared to play on all the maps, and has many of the shortcomings of the veto system.

I propose a new system which solves the problems of the two above systems, although it is a bit more complicated, it has a variety of systemic advantages. A "pick" system will allow a very large map pool, and adding new maps to the pool has less of an immediate impact, as it will appear less frequently unless it is highly favored. This allows tournaments to work in new maps, and simultaneously give players the control to choose maps they are comfortable with. Korean pros can pick the classic maps, which would naturally remain unless they have reason to be removed. And players who want to play something specific, or more novel, or have a map-specific build nobody has seen before get the chance to demonstrate it on the new maps.

OK here's the whole system. The tournament releases a map pool of a large number of maps. The number of maps will be greater than the 8-12 or so maps on ladder or in tournaments at any given time. Each player submits a list of maps which can be any length they wish. These are maps they prefer. To determine the maps used in the series, the two players' lists are compared. A map which appears on either player's list is added into the pool of maps which could be used in the series. Maps which appear on both players lists are agreed upon as being preferred, and will be randomly selected between until the list of agreed-upon maps is exhausted, at which point the set of maps which are only on one of either player's lists will be selected from randomly.

As for map selection "strategy" mechanics, all possible selection styles are valid, and are accounted for. In general, the more maps a player picks, the more control they have over the maps chosen, but their control becomes less specific to a particular map. Choose too many and their lists will agree and the short list will select the entire match's pool. The player who chooses fewer maps has less control over which maps are played if the two lists don't agree, but has more control over which specific maps when they do. The conservative option to pick and practice on an extremely tight pool of maps will work well for them if the other player includes those maps in their picks, which is more likely if they want to spam the pool by including nearly all of them to try to throw off the more conservative player. If both players choose large numbers of maps, the map selection process will be highly random, which is desirable since both players indicated they are prepared to play on a wide variety of maps. And lastly, if both players are tightly conservative and select very few maps, then the total random list of maps is very small. If both players select four maps, then there is a random pool of only eight maps, assuming they don't agree.

There are a lot of ways this system might be modified to accommodate specific needs of a tournament. For example, tournaments may elect to have "map seeds" which will always be considered even if neither player chooses them. Tournaments which want to give the players choice can let the loser pick from among a set of maps of their choosing. Tournaments might require a minimum or maximum number of picks, or could even implement a multiple-tiered pick system, or allow vetoes as well as picks. I think these are unnecessary, but it's a possibility.

The important detail is that a large tournament map pool is cut down to size by player choice, and maps which both players wish to play on are more likely to be played on, allowing a more organic evolution of the map pool as maps fall in and out of favor with players. Maps which are never played on can be phased out to make room for new maps. Players who want to stick to conservative, well-known maps will submit the maps they want, as will players who have developed something map-specific or want to play on a less stale map. This is perfectly general to any number of maps in the pool. And most importantly, it accommodates both tournaments which want to introduce new maps and players who want to play on familiar maps at the same time.
"First decide who you would be, then do what you must do."
Primadog
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4411 Posts
December 07 2011 21:51 GMT
#45
Megaupload sucks, drop.sc is superior http://drop.sc/packs/375
Thank God and gunrun.
SafeAsCheese
Profile Joined June 2011
United States4924 Posts
December 07 2011 21:55 GMT
#46
I just want to say that I agree with no gold maps.

People who CAN take gold bases are usually in a lead, and gold bases just put them into such a bigger lead that they are almost guaranteed to win if they hold it for 5 mins.

This is not good for SC2, comebacks are very important to spectators.
Xeris
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
Iran17695 Posts
December 07 2011 22:11 GMT
#47
Keep going with the feedback! It's much appreciated!
twitter.com/xerislight -- follow me~~
IronManSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States2119 Posts
December 07 2011 22:23 GMT
#48
On behalf of the TPW team, whichever maps are accepted, and if they have gold bases, they will be replaced with normal blue bases. You can be sure of this.
SC2 Mapmaker || twitter: @ironmansc || Ohana & Mech Depot || 3x TLMC finalist || www.twitch.tv/sc2mapstream
vizir
Profile Joined August 2010
Finland154 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-07 22:40:13
December 07 2011 22:39 GMT
#49
On December 07 2011 13:04 Dexington wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 07 2011 13:00 hunts wrote:
I really don't see why NASL feels the need to have unique maps. Really, just take the general ones that other tournaments use and save your players the headache. NASL is already seeming to have a hard enough time getting enough top tier players to keep viewers interested with the koreans withdrawing and all. I really think that more top end players will reconsider playing in the NASL if they have to play on random maps that no other tournament will ever use


Every tournament is getting new maps. The current map pool is incredibly stale and having every tournament use the same maps gets a little stale to watch, tbh


If the map itself creates unique metagame since it's too different from the ladder maps (for example Crevasse, Crossfire etc) it becomes uninteresting for me, as viewer who actively plays only ladder, to watch games on such maps. Copying builds and watching how pro deals with some situation you may have difficulties yourself makes it just so much more interesting. I have no idea about tactics or metagame on maps like Crevasse and that's why I just mostly skip watching those games. This is just my opinion though but I just find those games much more interesting that are played on familiar ladder maps.
00Visor
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
4337 Posts
December 07 2011 22:41 GMT
#50
I think it is wrong to ask for balance suggestions here.
It is very difficult to really judge just based on the look of maps and maybe some single games. Just look at Crossfire, how everybody (and Artosis still) says it is a bad Zerg map, when all statistics have denied that.
Maybe some maps are more open, some have smaller rush distances, some make a FFE difficult. But they still can be balanced all around. It would be boring if all maps were very similar on some key factors.

I think you should ask the community which maps provided interesting games. And for the balance part, rely on statistics (difficult to get for these new maps) and some opinions of experts who you directly address. Then you have to just go for it, a risk remains, but it worked out for GSL quite well so far.
Primadog
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4411 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-07 23:17:31
December 07 2011 23:16 GMT
#51
It makes sense to get opinions from as many perspective as possible, especially when hard data - competitive results - are not available. Ultimately, unproven maps will need support from all three interest groups - the casters needs to have terrain features to talk about, the players must not hate them, and the viewers must enjoy the aesthetics.
Thank God and gunrun.
Xeris
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
Iran17695 Posts
December 07 2011 23:27 GMT
#52
On December 08 2011 08:16 Primadog wrote:
It makes sense to get opinions from as many perspective as possible, especially when hard data - competitive results - are not available. Ultimately, unproven maps will need support from all three interest groups - the casters needs to have terrain features to talk about, the players must not hate them, and the viewers must enjoy the aesthetics.


Correctamundo
twitter.com/xerislight -- follow me~~
Meltage
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany613 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-08 16:13:50
December 07 2011 23:40 GMT
#53
Updated Map List
- New updated overview images | Map thread links -

  • TPW Concrete Dreams
    Map Thread

  • TPW Lunar Station

  • TPW Ohana
    Map Thread

  • TPW Emerald Jungle
    Map Thread

  • TPW Overgrown
    Map Thread

  • TPW Damage Inc
    Map Thread

  • TPW Odyssey
    Map Thread

  • TPW Artifice
    Map Thread

  • TPW One Must Fall
    Map Thread



Click on the map name for full overview images.
Below each map name, there are links to each map thread here on TL, which has more info on each map.
Some of the maps have been updated since they were played in the NASL opens and semi-open.

Please give feedback in the map threads as well.

Updates
8 dec 2011: updated the image for Damage Inc with latest version. Basically, all mains are now on high ground and have a regular sized ramp entrance. The top right and bottom left mains that were changed were also increased in size.
http://mentalbalans.se/aggedesign
HeavenResign
Profile Joined April 2011
United States702 Posts
December 07 2011 23:41 GMT
#54
TPW Damage Inc should not be in the map pool because it makes PvP 4 gate versus 4 gate just like Tal Darim. Now that we're well enough into SC2 to know this, no new maps should be coming without some sort of one FF ramp for the Protoss main, or maybe natural if the map is designed with a shared main/natural.
Meltage
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany613 Posts
December 08 2011 10:51 GMT
#55
TPW Overgrown

I take it it's a remake of shakuras with similar forced spawns? Might not be so bad. I like shakuras except for the late game map split scenario which this maps seems to have fixed. It might be a bit too large though.


Yes, the spawns are like Shakuras, cross and long spawns (and disabled close spawns). Please check the map thread for more info and discussion. Se my last post for links to all map threads. Overgrown was changed (since NASL semi-open) with more space behind the mineral lines to take some of the air space, making space for both drops and anti-air defense. The high grounds by the thirds and in the left and right low grounds are slightly bigger, making the low ground areas less open.

The map that have changed the most, compared to the old overview images in the OP, is Damage Inc, where an entire expo per player was removed (this version was played in the semi-open).
http://mentalbalans.se/aggedesign
Ragoo
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany2773 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-09 08:15:13
December 08 2011 13:28 GMT
#56
On December 08 2011 07:23 IronManSC wrote:
On behalf of the TPW team, whichever maps are accepted, and if they have gold bases, they will be replaced with normal blue bases. You can be sure of this.


Okay since I'm an active mapmaker (one of my maps is TL map contest finalist) I know all of these maps and have some thoughts and recommendations to share:

Ohana is an excellent, dynamic 2p macro map. It has an easy third and fourth and each player has a tower on his side of the middle, so you have a good time macroing. Yet the fact that there are 4 different pathes through the middle and you can only change sides through a very small choke makes it hard to split the map like you can on Shakuras for example.
The middle bases are very contested and further ensure that the lategame doesn't result in boring map splits but instead is a constant fight about controlling these bases.
This is my first choice.

One Must Fall has an ingenious layout (no wonder since it's effectively a remake of the BW map Carthage). You can easily expand in every direction you want to, the last bases you take are again pretty contested due to rather short distance to your enemy's bases and there is tons of attack pathes all over the map.
This is more of an aggressive map with somewhat of an harder third and rush distances only a bit longer than xelnaga caverns.
Imo the gold needs to be removed (TPW as quoted will do that), the aesthetics need to be improved (TPW is known for excellent aesthetics and will surely do that) and I wish the middle would be streteched out a bit more to increase map size/rush distance (easy fix, should think about it).
This is my second choice.

For a third map I don't have a clear choice. I don't rly mind what map it will be I guess.

Concrete Dreams is an attempt to make a smaller and better version of Terminus. It's one of the most detailed and beautiful maps I have ever seen. When it comes to gameplay I'm a bit worried that "another Terminus" will confuse players. There's already 3 versions of Terminus and this map looks a lot like Terminus, yet it rly isn't in some aspects.
It should play out just fine tho. The third is harder but the distances are shorter.

Lunar Station ... hm... it just doesn't bring anything new to the table and there's like no rly clear chokes and open areas on the map, everything is the same. I don't like this map a lot, it's just very generic and doesn't do anything better than the other maps.

Emeral Jungle has lots of attack pathes and expansion choices but I don't like the base between you and your enemy in vertical spawns. It's like directly on the attack path between bases and I see terran taking it as fourth while slowpushing all the time.
Also I don't like how vulnerable the nat is. Don't like it a lot overall.

Overgrown is very nice. It's basically Shakuras but with the flaws of that map fixed. On this map you can expand in the same easy way and macro up but lategame it's no longer easy split map with only one attack path through the middle (and mass ghosts pwning poor Zergs in TvZ). Since I don't like Shakuras' lategame and the lack of attack pathes I see this map as a huge improvement if it would replace Shakuras.

Damagine Inc is a cool map with a cool idea. All the small features are used right and are fun to play around with and the overall base layout is very solid and good. One problem why it's not in my top3 necessarily: flat choke ruining PvP.

Odyseey is very basic and has proven to create good games and be rather popular amongst players in the Go4SC2 Cup. I don't think much bad things can be said about this map aside from the fact that the third is a bit hard. It would just be a very solid pick.

Artifice is solid and boring. If you want a solid boring map that's beautiful go for it, I don't see how that would give us anything new to be excited about tho.
Member of TPW mapmaking team/// twitter.com/Ragoo_ /// "goody represents border between explainable reason and supernatural" Cloud
Stiluz
Profile Joined October 2010
Norway688 Posts
December 08 2011 14:00 GMT
#57
I like Oddysey best of all these maps. All races seem able to expand, and it has different attack/counter-attack paths. I would remove the gold for balance though, unless it had rich vespene geysers or something, to make it worthwhile for Zerg/Protoss.
Andreas
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Norway214 Posts
December 08 2011 14:13 GMT
#58
Why not ask some top-level players instead?
haitike
Profile Joined June 2009
Spain2711 Posts
December 08 2011 14:17 GMT
#59
On December 08 2011 23:13 Andreas wrote:
Why not ask some top-level players instead?


Read the second page... Xeris said he is talking too with the Players and Mapmakers about this.
LunaSaint
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United Kingdom620 Posts
December 08 2011 15:34 GMT
#60
One Must Fall and Odyssey are top picks for sure. Odyssey has been proved to be a very solid map already and One Must Fall provides a lot of options for expansion. That's a reliable, straightforward map and a dynamic, really different map.

After that I would have to choose between Artifice, Overgrown, Ohana and Damage Inc.

Overgrown I see as a much, much better Shakuras except for the fact that you can pretty much walk from anywhere to anywhere.

Artifice is very simple and very pretty, but also pretty boring.

Ohana is really good overall. I'm intimidated by how many attack routes there are, but I think they're more reasonable than Overgrown.

Damage Inc is a map that's excited me so much since the thread was first made I get lost in it, so I'll refrain from commenting out of bias.

I think Ohana gets the edge, so my votes would be

Odyssey, One Must Fall, Ohana
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