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On November 04 2011 07:18 sermokala wrote:
I think it would have been better if you framed it in the context of how many events you have going on and trying to organize the different exchange rates and organizing the different countries that you have to work with and the different tax codes. I'm not sure that people should compare MLG and ESL when there could be a hell of a lot more financial issues with paying out "prize's" or rewards when in america they just give you the cash and your expected to file it on your own tax documents.
If ESL say had transparency about the events they had and checked off the different people that where paid and the people who weren't yet it would be a lot better then blind suspicion about the people who haven't been paid yet.
Not to seem like ESL is a special case but if they where they where responsible for just IEM's they'd be in the same boat as MLG but they manage so many other things that they deserve special treatment from people. I'm sure that ESL has many more problems with paying out that isn't they're fault but your not stating and so making it seem like you're not very good/ don't care enough about paying out prize money.
ESL Fighting!
Good point, need to quote.
As an organizer handing out cash cheques and the player just cashes it , the player isn't mostly aware of any taxes and the organizer can blame the player for tax evasion. As it was stated in the other thread, IPL said that there are bureaucracy issues to pay "foreigners".
But to not miss the point of the discussion: payments in a 90 day frame are acceptable. I think both parties (players/organizers) should handle this more professionally. Especially for "live events". A players appears and he signs a contract for performance.
Player to clan/organization communication needs to be more transparent. When as stated in the "other" thread this communication fails players are disappointed towards organizers when they are not at fault.
This post is not meant to defend tournament organizers of paying late (later as 3 months) which is in my opinion clearly unacceptable). It is more dedicated to more professional behaviour from both sides. Set more rules. Players blaming DreamHack and PolarFluke for not paying should read the rules before they make accusations.
Edit: i don't know, but the ESL are already known for paying late (extremely late). But it seems they mostly pay after all.
For me it is also very interesting to know about clans/organizations which are restraining prizes and do not pay them to their players.
hm, quite sure i forgot something or missed a point, but forgive my grammar/wording. Feel free to send me a PM.
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Cool thanks for clearing this up. <3
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Can we get an Uszat edition of this?
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On November 04 2011 06:54 LovE-z33k wrote:
So basically, you're saying it will be paid. Cool...
Why is it that MLG pays out right away, and ESL doesn't. The whole 90 day thing is BS, and nothing stops you from going over that time period anyways.
Keep in mind, MLG doesn't host nearly as many tournaments as ESL does.
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you always make everything better carmac 
thx
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Pretty much the best response thread to accusations I've ever read on TL. Informative yet not shunning blame. Carmac is my new hero.
I will now refrain from passing too quick of judgement on tournaments that don't give their money out ASAP now.
However, as Carmac said, and as has been talked about to death the past few days, it does need to change. 3 months, while not the worst thing, is still far too long for people to get their money. Personally I feel like 30 days is about the maximum.
I understand the whole "quarterly sponsor payments" and stuff, but I'm sure there is a way to change how you are paid if there is enough pressure from the community, players, and tournament organizers. Things might be as simple as saying "Hey, you can't sponsor this tournament unless you pay us every 30 days."
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On November 04 2011 05:55 tabbott26 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 04:57 Carmac wrote:
It can happen that the team withholds it from the player(s) without them being aware of it. I was told about such an issue today, actually (you'd be surprised who…) I'll put 50 quid on it being Idra and EG...
SK is the only organization I know who's had a history of not paying players, so i'd put my money on them.
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First of all, Turtle Entertainment (ESL, IEM etc) is as far as i know still at risk.The "big" eSports scene (all of it, not only SC2) is far of being self sufficient. Hosting live events cost the organizers way more money than the revenue (premium, ads etc) generates. Only staff costs way more than every prize pool so far. Excluding rent for halls etc...
These big prize pools come only from sponsors and their will to advertise. Esports is still only a marketing trial, nothing else.
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Much respect.
Simply stepping up and directly providing insight to the public gives a sense of care for the sport and community.
There is a chance it is artificial publicity stunt, it's still more effort then simply blowing it off and then not letting the player participate in the future.
Also I haven't seen any other organization cloud mentioned make any attempts to justify their actions or protect their name.
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Hey check it out, peer pressure works and the fact that the community suddenly cares makes the actors behind the scene reveal their workings.
I call this a success, though don't become complacent and start doing bullshit things again, people will hear about it and we'll start our hate campaigns once again if it happens.
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On November 04 2011 13:35 Derity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 07:18 sermokala wrote:
I think it would have been better if you framed it in the context of how many events you have going on and trying to organize the different exchange rates and organizing the different countries that you have to work with and the different tax codes. I'm not sure that people should compare MLG and ESL when there could be a hell of a lot more financial issues with paying out "prize's" or rewards when in america they just give you the cash and your expected to file it on your own tax documents.
If ESL say had transparency about the events they had and checked off the different people that where paid and the people who weren't yet it would be a lot better then blind suspicion about the people who haven't been paid yet.
Not to seem like ESL is a special case but if they where they where responsible for just IEM's they'd be in the same boat as MLG but they manage so many other things that they deserve special treatment from people. I'm sure that ESL has many more problems with paying out that isn't they're fault but your not stating and so making it seem like you're not very good/ don't care enough about paying out prize money.
ESL Fighting! Good point, need to quote. As an organizer handing out cash cheques and the player just cashes it , the player isn't mostly aware of any taxes and the organizer can blame the player for tax evasion. As it was stated in the other thread, IPL said that there are bureaucracy issues to pay "foreigners". But to not miss the point of the discussion: payments in a 90 day frame are acceptable. I think both parties (players/organizers) should handle this more professionally. Especially for "live events". A players appears and he signs a contract for performance. Player to clan/organization communication needs to be more transparent. When as stated in the "other" thread this communication fails players are disappointed towards organizers when they are not at fault. This post is not meant to defend tournament organizers of paying late (later as 3 months) which is in my opinion clearly unacceptable). It is more dedicated to more professional behaviour from both sides. Set more rules. Players blaming DreamHack and PolarFluke for not paying should read the rules before they make accusations. Edit: i don't know, but the ESL are already known for paying late (extremely late). But it seems they mostly pay after all. For me it is also very interesting to know about clans/organizations which are restraining prizes and do not pay them to their players. hm, quite sure i forgot something or missed a point, but forgive my grammar/wording. Feel free to send me a PM.
I 100% agree with Derity on this. We need to be more official if e-sports is gonna go anywhere, because our current model seems to have a lot of flaws. I base this on all the "esports drama". I wish it all to end, but somewhere, somehow, people are gonna have to work on it and I am hella glad it isn't me. Because we're in a pickle and this pickle is dripping vinegar.
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what tournaments organisers should do is to ensure the prize money are already on their hands prior to the start of the tournament and not wait till the champion has been crowned before getting the sponsors to release the money, thus incurring the transaction delay. NO money ready to pay out = NO prize pool = NO tournament. simple as that.
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This is pure unprofessionality. If u don't have Save sponsor contracts don't advertise! Get the Money 1st and then Start the tournaments, everything Else is unprofessional, deal with it!!! And last but not least esl is unprofessional who are u to Pay out the prizemoney to those who got ranked 1. and 2. Fast and the Rest have to wait Close to 1 Year and above ?!!!
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Damn Carmac you rule, perfect explination of how ESL works, just admitting things ain't all 100% yet, but that you work on it. This is the only right way to react.
Other organisation should learn from this, I saw ESWC for example attacking players at the "price money" topic, you'll reach nothing with that
Keep up the good work, and I hope you guys can solve the problems that still are there as soon as possible
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Thanks for explaining the payment process from a tournaments perspective.
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On November 04 2011 05:47 DISHU wrote:
I'm sorry Carmac, but mud does need to be flung! You boys need to fix your business model. If MLG can pay out right away - you should be able to aswell and they aggresivly seek out the people that they owe money which doesnt seem the case with esl. Money loses value over time these days so the longer you wait the less it is actually worth.
This is BS, ESL is soo much bigger then MLG, MLG host 1 event a month, ESL 100+ events a month. So the system gets slower. But they also admin they are wrong.
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So because you acknowledge you haven't paid your players yet you think it's all peaches and cream now? This just makes it worse in my opinion.
I wonder how much money they are owed from their sponsors? Probably zero because they make sure they get paid. To pay the players? That's an entire other issue, hah. Gotta make sure they get their money though!
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On November 04 2011 17:04 michielbrands wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2011 05:47 DISHU wrote:
I'm sorry Carmac, but mud does need to be flung! You boys need to fix your business model. If MLG can pay out right away - you should be able to aswell and they aggresivly seek out the people that they owe money which doesnt seem the case with esl. Money loses value over time these days so the longer you wait the less it is actually worth.
This is BS, ESL is soo much bigger then MLG, MLG host 1 event a month, ESL 100+ events a month. So the system gets slower. But they also admin they are wrong.
Exactly, it's pretty ridiculous to compare the two when you realize just how much ESL dwarfs MLG.
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Yes. This is what I'm looking for. Someone to explain the situation.
Thankyou carmac, for not making ESL look like a bunch of promise-breakers.
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90 days?? I wish. I've been waiting since March 2011 for my prize money from ESL (EPS UK Season 4)
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EPT
