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Prize money, eSports, Lannisters - Page 9

Forum Index > SC2 General
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warshop
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada490 Posts
November 04 2011 02:58 GMT
#161
Guys,

Can you at least have the courtesy to answer in the same polite way that Carmac addressed us.

And please, no need to share your conspiracy theory on what Carmac really wanted to say. Keep them for yourself, or blog about it.

It certainly doesn't the situation and makes it a hassle to read this thread.

Thanks!~~
whateverpeeps
Profile Joined August 2011
United States214 Posts
November 04 2011 03:06 GMT
#162
I guess my question then is, when under this pay model, why host all these tournaments, cups, and so on, if you don't have the money to back it up? Why not wait until your sponsors pay you on the quarterly system, and then host said tournaments?

Most tournaments outside of esports pay the money up front, which is held in escrow as the tournament proceeds.

What I'm trying to say is, this post gives an explanation as to why there is delay ("we don't have the money"), but it doesn't do anything to address the issue. Cloud still doesn't have his money, as don't other players, and it looks like players participating in future ESL tournaments will have the same problem.

We know you don't have the money, otherwise you would have paid and there wouldn't be a problem. The question is, what can be done to fix it.


Also, didn't some players mention something like a 7-9 month delay for their payments, or were those other tournaments? (sorry that thread is so busy it's hard to relocate information, but I'm pretty sure it was directed at ESL).
whateverpeeps
Profile Joined August 2011
United States214 Posts
November 04 2011 03:14 GMT
#163
Basically, I don't want to trigger any controversy,

But people are taking any response on the matter by IEM as satisfactory, when the truth is what has been said is nothing that we didn't know already.

Carmac has said nothing except that the sponsors haven'tt given them the money (which we could have figured out by lack of payments).

But question is, how to fix this? How to shorten the times? How to get the money owed to players now? THESE were the problems in the original thread, that Cloud and others were addressing. They weren't asking for an explanation, they were asking for a solution.
sougamiso
Profile Joined October 2010
United Arab Emirates7 Posts
November 04 2011 03:16 GMT
#164
I'm not very familiar with the business side of e-sports. But I've been involved in managing prize winning competitions and promotions in dozens of countries for several years and I know more than most people do about the commercial and legal side of this. Prize winning competitions are a huge industry and in almost every country on earth there is precedent, industry practice and legislation/regulation that deals with these issues pretty well, so I'm surprised that the e-sports businesses do not (and are not forced by regulation as they should) follow the same ways.

1. There is no country in the world (at least none in the "developed" world) where it's legal to have a competition that promises prizes without issuing a legal document called Terms & Conditions that is available to all participants prior to signing up for the competition. This document should define exactly when and how prizes will be paid (as well as any taxes applicable on the organizer side, and exclusions / reasons to be disqualified from receiving the prize) You don't need to invest in a lawyer to have this enforced; a simple complain/notification to the relevant authority will result in the state going after the illegal competition without any expense on the player's side

2. In most countries the law has restrictions about the payout process; how it is done, the maximum period allowed to deliver prizes, etc. 1-3 months periods are typical. Again, the state will automatically chase after irregularities with this, if someone files a complaint

3. In many countries the organizer is obliged to provide the prizes in advance of advertising the competition, either in the form of a deposit in a trust account or in the form of a bank guarantee - usually these are issued towards a regulatory authority, the ministry of finance or an appointed organization that supervises such processes.

4. Brands/sponsors are not unfamiliar with the idea of fronting prize money. In fact, when a brand sponsors a competition they would often ask the organizer for guarantees or other proof that they can make sure everyone is paid out on time. Simply because a payment fiasco can do 10 times more damage than the positive marketing they are hoping the sponsorship to create. Often a complaint on the sponsor's marketing department (especially with the silent threat of making a fuss about it on social media) should be enough to create pressure from the sponsor's side for timely payments

5. Brands don't understand e-sports very well because it's not very well established. They don't necessarily know which tourneys are the safest, most diligent ones. They probably don't realize the risk they're taking by putting their name (and money) behind unprofessional organizers. A community rating/transparency system that would offer this information to sponsors would not only help more sponsors make good decisions and pour more money on the scene (I'm sure many big companies who have more rigid due diligence processes, are shy to sponsor tournaments precisely because they can't find good information on risk) but it would also set up the right incentives for organizers.

6. The fact that things have been done in a bad way from most organizers for a long time doesn't make it right. If e-sports is going to grow, at some point the community (and the players) should take the hit of closing down a significant number of tournaments (by boycotting or blacklisting them) to let the few good ones flourish. Even if 90% of tournaments went out of business, eventually the value would be recovered, because bad practices and shady reputations are holding the entire scene from becoming a mainstream budget items in big brand's marketing plans.

7. I'd like to note that the total size of prize funds for tournaments in SC2 (as I can see by tallying up the numbers public) is peanuts compared to marketing budgets that big brands have for activities of this sort (below-the-line placement marketing, passion points marketing, etc). But to unlock these budgets, the e-sports scene needs to look like a clean, safe, predictable marketing avenue to the big companies, because that's what they need to get anything done. I don't buy the excuse that sponsors don't pay - I've organized marketing competitions all my life and I know that it's not so hard to get a brand to care for timely payments when they've put their name behind something. That is, if you educate them and if you re professional and serious about what you're doing.

8. We can't expect players to fight these battles as individuals. Even in the absence of a governing body for e-sports we can at least get more transparency, make the information that is available public and organized. I would love to see TLPD or a similar database listing payout records along with results. I would love to see the community create a list of authorities per country that teams can notify when organizers fail to live up to their promises. Others who are more experience than me in community-organizing matters should be able to come up with even better ways to get the people who love e-sports to help clean up the commercial side of it. If we don't, then it will always be a marginal and non-sustainable activity.

This, together with the recurrent contract dramas and unenforcability, are major blockers in the way between hobby and actual commercial industry. But luckily there exists two industries that we can copy practices from to make it happen. For prizes that would be the marketing competitions industry. For contracts that would be the football/basketball industry.


Misanthrope
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States924 Posts
November 04 2011 03:27 GMT
#165
This actually aligns with my previous perception of the situation in regards to ESL. At this point the biggest problem are other companies, such as ESWC. The only matter that this should resolve is raising awareness as to how the business model functions, leading to more understanding on the part of the players and spectators who are outraged now that they're in the know.
Resolve to perform what you ought. Perform without fail what you resolve. - Benjamin Franklin
Let it Raine
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada1245 Posts
November 04 2011 03:30 GMT
#166
yo carmac, you're awesome.

that is all.
Grandmaster Zerg x14. Diamond 1 LoL. MLG 50, Halo 3. Raine.
Lysenko
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Iceland2128 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-04 03:36:47
November 04 2011 03:35 GMT
#167
On November 04 2011 12:16 sougamiso wrote:
1. There is no country in the world (at least none in the "developed" world) where it's legal to have a competition that promises prizes without issuing a legal document called Terms & Conditions that is available to all participants prior to signing up for the competition. This document should define exactly when and how prizes will be paid (as well as any taxes applicable on the organizer side, and exclusions / reasons to be disqualified from receiving the prize) You don't need to invest in a lawyer to have this enforced; a simple complain/notification to the relevant authority will result in the state going after the illegal competition without any expense on the player's side



At least in the United States, that's not generally the case. Disputes over the payouts of competitions here is a civil matter, and the authorities would only get involved in cases of fraud (where there's evidence that the organizer was deceiving participants in order to get something of value from them, like a registration fee), where the type of event is specifically regulated (like boxing in Nevada or New Jersey), or where there's some kind of question about whether the event is a game of chance, i.e. gambling.

In the U.S., legally vetted terms and conditions documents are a very good idea as a means of protecting oneself from legal liability, but they're not required.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
BlitchizSC2
Profile Joined August 2010
United States306 Posts
November 04 2011 03:36 GMT
#168
change the ways in the future. fix wrongs of the past. proactive action plz.
www.twitch.tv/blitchizsc2 | http://www.youtube.com/BlitchizStarcraft ~ fighting!
Snorkels
Profile Joined May 2011
United States1015 Posts
November 04 2011 03:44 GMT
#169
Thanks for acknowledging concerns and respectfully communicating with the community.
DivinO
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States4796 Posts
November 04 2011 03:45 GMT
#170
Thanks for the response, Carmac. o.O
LiquipediaBrain in my filth.
charliewinsmore
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
98 Posts
November 04 2011 03:53 GMT
#171
You can read one page of one of these threads and see that there's a lot more than Carmac's figure of "32,870 EUR and 400 USD" of ESL prizes unaccounted for...
JMDj
Profile Joined September 2010
United States454 Posts
November 04 2011 03:55 GMT
#172
Nice to see an honest and polite response. Carmac is a great guy who truly loves eSports/Starcraft.

Hopefully we'll see some improvements from ESL and other tournaments as far as paying players up front/sooner.
WaZuP
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Germany487 Posts
November 04 2011 04:05 GMT
#173
even though im from germany fuck ESL their way to selfish and not acting in favorite way to Esports
Masq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada1792 Posts
November 04 2011 04:12 GMT
#174
On November 04 2011 04:57 Carmac wrote: A Lannister always pays his debts.


i love you
WaZuP
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Germany487 Posts
November 04 2011 04:15 GMT
#175
im sad that ma anecstors are related to this country shame on ESL ...
sougamiso
Profile Joined October 2010
United Arab Emirates7 Posts
November 04 2011 04:17 GMT
#176
On November 04 2011 12:35 Lysenko wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 04 2011 12:16 sougamiso wrote:
1. There is no country in the world (at least none in the "developed" world) where it's legal to have a competition that promises prizes without issuing a legal document called Terms & Conditions that is available to all participants prior to signing up for the competition. This document should define exactly when and how prizes will be paid (as well as any taxes applicable on the organizer side, and exclusions / reasons to be disqualified from receiving the prize) You don't need to invest in a lawyer to have this enforced; a simple complain/notification to the relevant authority will result in the state going after the illegal competition without any expense on the player's side



At least in the United States, that's not generally the case. Disputes over the payouts of competitions here is a civil matter, and the authorities would only get involved in cases of fraud (where there's evidence that the organizer was deceiving participants in order to get something of value from them, like a registration fee), where the type of event is specifically regulated (like boxing in Nevada or New Jersey), or where there's some kind of question about whether the event is a game of chance, i.e. gambling.

In the U.S., legally vetted terms and conditions documents are a very good idea as a means of protecting oneself from legal liability, but they're not required.


Bear in mind however that the US has pretty strict laws about misrepresentation of "promised benefit" in marketing material. So if a competition has created anything that can be considered marketing material (an announcement thread, or a website) and they don't live up to these promises it's just as bad as violating terms and conditions. So, not being forced to have terms and conditions doesn't mean you can promise prizes and not give them. Plus, even skill-based competitions are subject to restrictions (not as hard as "gambling"-type competitions). Yes, indeed in the US the state does not act on its own, however competition organizers are under even bigger risk because of that: because anyone can sue you for anything and then you just have to fight over the interpretation (there is no authority that give you a permit and enforces the law on competitions). Even worse, class action is a possibility. The last bit is the most important, because that's the type of lawsuit that can be self-funded from the greed of a single lawyer seeing the opportunity.

Yes, my initial post may sound like an oversimplification and there are a lot of nuances in the legal environment in every country in the world, but the bottom line that I feel we can agree to is that so many other competition-type or promise-based industries exist and they can function because the stakeholders (sponsors, organizers, participants, consumers) have the motivation to follow some rules. There will always be a scammer, but when you look at e-sports and 90% of tourneys are unprofessional this does not mean scam, it means an industry that lack basic commercial sense. The legal framework is adequate. Stakeholders need better information to make better choices - that is what's missing I believe.
Jayrod
Profile Joined August 2010
1820 Posts
November 04 2011 04:20 GMT
#177
Don't put up prize money, you don't have.
enzymezero
Profile Joined March 2010
United States65 Posts
November 04 2011 04:22 GMT
#178
If you cannot pay the money in timely fashion, as recorded by countless players here, why do continue to offer prize money in sums you obviously you are unable to pay out?

We want real answers to the problem, not fluff about what we already know. I haven't seen anything new. Just seems like to me you're trying to save face by making a post about it.
Apolex
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada103 Posts
November 04 2011 04:34 GMT
#179
On November 04 2011 10:06 Eee wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 04 2011 10:00 IMStyle wrote:
Its interesting how people are okay with getting paid 90 days after the date played. Tournaments should be like MLG and paid on the day of or at least within 2 weeks. They should not be hosting a tourney if they don't have the cash flow to do so .

Please keep in mind that esl is a profitable organization, they are NOT doing this out of good heart just to spread esports .. They ARE making money, otherwise they would not have lasted as long as they have. It seems like the culture of the company is focused more on organizing tournies, attracting more sponsors and paying their own employees over the prize payout to pro gamers.

Its obvious that not everything is Carmacs fault and he is trying to assure people that esl is not intentionally holding pro gamers money, he's not saying pro gamers such as cloud and Grubby are lying. But it is also true that he isn't doing anything to speed up the payout process. Maybe more people need to be hired to handle all the paperwork.

As for people saying we have to support esl for the growth of esports...that is obviously untrue too. Where there is market, sponsors and profits, there will be organizations that are willing to fill the gap.The fall of one organization leads to the growth or formation of another. I just hope pro gamers who voiced out these serious issue and concern do not get punished in any form or way.

Well 2 weeks is pretty much impossible in most countries so that's not a possibility at all.


I'm pretty sure it takes less then two weeks to process less then 100 players worth of prizes... it takes a week to audit a small business that makes 4.5 Million U.S.D a year.. don't tell me it takes longer to calculate taxes and paperwork ... most of which should have been ready and done before the tourney. Tax rates and paperwork don't change daily, they are set.
Jealousy is a sin.
Puph
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada635 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-04 04:39:53
November 04 2011 04:34 GMT
#180
+ Show Spoiler +
On November 04 2011 12:16 sougamiso wrote:
I'm not very familiar with the business side of e-sports. But I've been involved in managing prize winning competitions and promotions in dozens of countries for several years and I know more than most people do about the commercial and legal side of this. Prize winning competitions are a huge industry and in almost every country on earth there is precedent, industry practice and legislation/regulation that deals with these issues pretty well, so I'm surprised that the e-sports businesses do not (and are not forced by regulation as they should) follow the same ways.

1. There is no country in the world (at least none in the "developed" world) where it's legal to have a competition that promises prizes without issuing a legal document called Terms & Conditions that is available to all participants prior to signing up for the competition. This document should define exactly when and how prizes will be paid (as well as any taxes applicable on the organizer side, and exclusions / reasons to be disqualified from receiving the prize) You don't need to invest in a lawyer to have this enforced; a simple complain/notification to the relevant authority will result in the state going after the illegal competition without any expense on the player's side

2. In most countries the law has restrictions about the payout process; how it is done, the maximum period allowed to deliver prizes, etc. 1-3 months periods are typical. Again, the state will automatically chase after irregularities with this, if someone files a complaint

3. In many countries the organizer is obliged to provide the prizes in advance of advertising the competition, either in the form of a deposit in a trust account or in the form of a bank guarantee - usually these are issued towards a regulatory authority, the ministry of finance or an appointed organization that supervises such processes.

4. Brands/sponsors are not unfamiliar with the idea of fronting prize money. In fact, when a brand sponsors a competition they would often ask the organizer for guarantees or other proof that they can make sure everyone is paid out on time. Simply because a payment fiasco can do 10 times more damage than the positive marketing they are hoping the sponsorship to create. Often a complaint on the sponsor's marketing department (especially with the silent threat of making a fuss about it on social media) should be enough to create pressure from the sponsor's side for timely payments

5. Brands don't understand e-sports very well because it's not very well established. They don't necessarily know which tourneys are the safest, most diligent ones. They probably don't realize the risk they're taking by putting their name (and money) behind unprofessional organizers. A community rating/transparency system that would offer this information to sponsors would not only help more sponsors make good decisions and pour more money on the scene (I'm sure many big companies who have more rigid due diligence processes, are shy to sponsor tournaments precisely because they can't find good information on risk) but it would also set up the right incentives for organizers.

6. The fact that things have been done in a bad way from most organizers for a long time doesn't make it right. If e-sports is going to grow, at some point the community (and the players) should take the hit of closing down a significant number of tournaments (by boycotting or blacklisting them) to let the few good ones flourish. Even if 90% of tournaments went out of business, eventually the value would be recovered, because bad practices and shady reputations are holding the entire scene from becoming a mainstream budget items in big brand's marketing plans.

7. I'd like to note that the total size of prize funds for tournaments in SC2 (as I can see by tallying up the numbers public) is peanuts compared to marketing budgets that big brands have for activities of this sort (below-the-line placement marketing, passion points marketing, etc). But to unlock these budgets, the e-sports scene needs to look like a clean, safe, predictable marketing avenue to the big companies, because that's what they need to get anything done. I don't buy the excuse that sponsors don't pay - I've organized marketing competitions all my life and I know that it's not so hard to get a brand to care for timely payments when they've put their name behind something. That is, if you educate them and if you re professional and serious about what you're doing.

8. We can't expect players to fight these battles as individuals. Even in the absence of a governing body for e-sports we can at least get more transparency, make the information that is available public and organized. I would love to see TLPD or a similar database listing payout records along with results. I would love to see the community create a list of authorities per country that teams can notify when organizers fail to live up to their promises. Others who are more experience than me in community-organizing matters should be able to come up with even better ways to get the people who love e-sports to help clean up the commercial side of it. If we don't, then it will always be a marginal and non-sustainable activity.


This, together with the recurrent contract dramas and unenforcability, are major blockers in the way between hobby and actual commercial industry. But luckily there exists two industries that we can copy practices from to make it happen. For prizes that would be the marketing competitions industry. For contracts that would be the football/basketball industry.




On November 04 2011 12:16 sougamiso wrote:
8. We can't expect players to fight these battles as individuals. Even in the absence of a governing body for e-sports we can at least get more transparency, make the information that is available public and organized. I would love to see TLPD or a similar database listing payout records along with results. I would love to see the community create a list of authorities per country that teams can notify when organizers fail to live up to their promises. Others who are more experience than me in community-organizing matters should be able to come up with even better ways to get the people who love e-sports to help clean up the commercial side of it. If we don't, then it will always be a marginal and non-sustainable activity.


I demand this. I believe it is extremely important that we, as a conscientious viewership, know which organizations are note-worthy and which ones operate in an illegitimate manner and act upon it. I refuse to watch a tournament or support an organization with a questionable business model. Whether ESL is questionable or not, IMO, is gonna be determined by [whether or not]:

A) All professionals are paid their due sums(where evidence exists, of course) and preferably in reverse chronological order.
B) A business model that does not fuck up is enforced, and consequently no further fuck-ups happen.

Until then, I believe it within my right to consider ESL an illegitimate organization on grounds of operating with an improper business model, although clearly they are more true to their word than a lot of other tournaments *cough*. That does not excuse ESL in my eyes though, unfortunately. Furthermore, I will be incredibly scrutinous of every tournament I watch from now on, I may even swear off wasting my time watching SC2. At least for a while. Personally, I thank you Carmine for bringing me this realization and I look forward to the day everybody at ESL can straighten this out and I can continue to enjoy the content you and your organization has to offer.

In hindsight, I understand the "list" I demand would be highly controversial, but at the very least I'd like to know that my favorite organizations know how to run a fucking tournament, because it just so happens that they pay my favorite players.

Edit for syntax
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