On October 29 2011 21:51 Archturus wrote: All these BW-Elitists are stupid! BW is dead and they just stick with it, because of nostalgia. SC2 is better in every aspect for the viewers/fans and its all about them, because they bring the money in the scene.
SC2 is actually worse in every aspect. We don't stick with BW because of nostalgia. We stick with it because it's a better game, better to watch, more exciting and way more skilful.
Thats why BW has 1% the fans/viewers/tourneys SC2 has...
How to say. BW has less of everything OUTSIDE of korea! But don't get wrong BW is still the star in korea for all the reasons said above. I love SC2 but I fully agree that BW is way better (right now) in every aspect : just go watch so epic VOD from MSL,etc ... There is not any fans /viewers/ tourneys outside of Korea because the game is old and no progaming scene was developed. That's the only reason.
On October 29 2011 21:51 Archturus wrote: All these BW-Elitists are stupid! BW is dead and they just stick with it, because of nostalgia. SC2 is better in every aspect for the viewers/fans and its all about them, because they bring the money in the scene.
SC2 is actually worse in every aspect. We don't stick with BW because of nostalgia. We stick with it because it's a better game, better to watch, more exciting and way more skilful.
Thats why BW has 1% the fans/viewers/tourneys SC2 has...
How to say. BW has less of everything OUTSIDE of korea! But don't get wrong BW is still the star in korea for all the reasons said above. I love SC2 but I fully agree that BW is way better (right now) in every aspect : just go watch so epic VOD from MSL,etc ... There is not any fans /viewers/ tourneys outside of Korea because the game is old and no progaming scene was developed. That's the only reason.
Let's be honest, it's mostly because us (foreigners) are bad, and never became good enough to matter for anything other than shoe-polishing assistance for B-teamers. ^__^
(not counting Grrr, because at his time the game wasn't fully developed yet)
so mass bio was possible in bw as well... and all bw players complaining about how marines are OP, i see they are very good vs ultras in bw
Honestly that video always confused me...
All it shows is ~500 minerals banked and a lot of marine/medic walking around the map killing ultras, he could do that with queuing 5 at a time from each rax, no?
Is there a first person view VOD anywhere of him playing at high apm and hitting production cycles perfectly etc?
Watch the whole game . Flash manages economy better then any progamer in history . His macro doesn't consist of just clicking on 7 - 8 barracks and 2 starports , his build order perfected to the very last detail and the timing in which he does everything could make even most of the SC2 pros look bad with their MBS and automine .
I wish it didn't have to be this way... I wish BW progamers and SC2 progamers were seperate. Now that KeSPA is involved, progamers will play what kespa wants them to.
What if flash does not want to play SC2? What if his real passion is broodwar? And believe me, it is. Playing Brood War this much for so long makes it really close to the heart. I really hope that the teams will have seperate players for both games, and or have the players choose what game they would rather play for whatever reason they like.
Personally, I like SC2. I think it's a fun game. I'm not very good at it though. The great thing about this game is the fact that I can find an even matched game in an instant. I want to play? Bam. Game. If you had this kind of matchmaking in BW I would be playing that. BW is my passion. But if It didn't take half an hour to find a game on Iccup I would most likely be playing BW more.
But again, that's a question of personal preference. If you prefer SC2 then great for you man! It's a super popular game with great support (except lan) games are easy to find, and now there might even be another high production value league in the making.
I'm also pumped for the coming of a high production value league. What I'm ashamed of is that old dogs will be playing it against their will, to forever weep the loss of their beloved game. If I see flash on-stage, playing SC2 do I know his love for the game? Do I feel his passion? Does he have the same dedication?
We'll see. If ever SC2 gets more realistic pathfinding then maybe that can happen.
On October 29 2011 21:51 Archturus wrote: All these BW-Elitists are stupid! BW is dead and they just stick with it, because of nostalgia. SC2 is better in every aspect for the viewers/fans and its all about them, because they bring the money in the scene.
SC2 is actually worse in every aspect. We don't stick with BW because of nostalgia. We stick with it because it's a better game, better to watch, more exciting and way more skilful.
Thats why BW has 1% the fans/viewers/tourneys SC2 has...
99% of people use QWERTY even though it's worse in every respect.
On October 29 2011 21:51 Archturus wrote: All these BW-Elitists are stupid! BW is dead and they just stick with it, because of nostalgia. SC2 is better in every aspect for the viewers/fans and its all about them, because they bring the money in the scene.
You really need to learn to respect the fans and players who made the SC2 scene possible in the first place. If it weren't for the amount of drive the SC1 community gave it, there would be no sequel.
Here, I'll start you off with one fact. You know what game the creators of Team Liquid played that drove them to build this site and the team in general? Oh, you guessed it, Brood War.
I love Starcraft 2 as much as the next guy, but I have found an extremely aggravating amount of people talking about a community and game which they know absolutely nothing about.
On October 29 2011 21:51 Archturus wrote: All these BW-Elitists are stupid! BW is dead and they just stick with it, because of nostalgia. SC2 is better in every aspect for the viewers/fans and its all about them, because they bring the money in the scene.
SC2 is actually worse in every aspect. We don't stick with BW because of nostalgia. We stick with it because it's a better game, better to watch, more exciting and way more skilful.
Thats why BW has 1% the fans/viewers/tourneys SC2 has...
Nope, it's because western people i just not as clever as korean viewership is and prefer shiny explosions to the true perfomance of skill.
And then we wonder how is it that they are better in every rts aspect.
FYI none of the progamers holding half a decent position in kespa rankings has switched to sc2 except MVP and ForGG. BW >>> SC2 in korea in terms of viewership.
On October 29 2011 21:51 Archturus wrote: All these BW-Elitists are stupid! BW is dead and they just stick with it, because of nostalgia. SC2 is better in every aspect for the viewers/fans and its all about them, because they bring the money in the scene.
SC2 is actually worse in every aspect. We don't stick with BW because of nostalgia. We stick with it because it's a better game, better to watch, more exciting and way more skilful.
Thats why BW has 1% the fans/viewers/tourneys SC2 has...
How to say. BW has less of everything OUTSIDE of korea! But don't get wrong BW is still the star in korea for all the reasons said above. I love SC2 but I fully agree that BW is way better (right now) in every aspect : just go watch so epic VOD from MSL,etc ... There is not any fans /viewers/ tourneys outside of Korea because the game is old and no progaming scene was developed. That's the only reason.
And that's the biggest reason. People tried, and failed to establish BW scene. The pyramid might be the most complex building ever, but if it's old, and hard to build, and not that nice, no one will ever build it without a special reason, again.
On October 29 2011 21:51 Archturus wrote: All these BW-Elitists are stupid! BW is dead and they just stick with it, because of nostalgia. SC2 is better in every aspect for the viewers/fans and its all about them, because they bring the money in the scene.
SC2 is actually worse in every aspect. We don't stick with BW because of nostalgia. We stick with it because it's a better game, better to watch, more exciting and way more skilful.
Thats why BW has 1% the fans/viewers/tourneys SC2 has...
In the West. Overall it's more or less the same.
And BW is better in terms of micro. SC2 has very little spectacular micro. For every such moment in SC2 there are 5 or 10 in BW.
SC2 has newer graphics, but they're not necessarily spectator friendly. Quite the opposite - it's quite hard to tell what's going on in a battle in SC2. Commentators often talk about pop limits because it's easier to see who's winning the battle that way than by actually looking at the armies. The screen is cluttered with special effects, team colours are not pronounced enough, Zerg units are hard to recognize on creep, and so on.
On October 29 2011 21:51 Archturus wrote: All these BW-Elitists are stupid! BW is dead and they just stick with it, because of nostalgia. SC2 is better in every aspect for the viewers/fans and its all about them, because they bring the money in the scene.
SC2 is actually worse in every aspect. We don't stick with BW because of nostalgia. We stick with it because it's a better game, better to watch, more exciting and way more skilful.
Thats why BW has 1% the fans/viewers/tourneys SC2 has...
In the West. Overall it's more or less the same.
And BW is better in terms of micro. SC2 has very little spectacular micro. For every such moment in SC2 there are 5 or 10 in BW.
SC2 has newer graphics, but they're not necessarily spectator friendly. Quite the opposite - it's quite hard to tell what's going on in a battle in SC2. Commentators often talk about pop limits because it's easier to see who's winning the battle that way than by actually looking at the armies. The screen is cluttered with special effects, team colours are not pronounced enough, Zerg units are hard to recognize on creep, and so on.
yay the argument has come full circle and started from the beginning again...uggggghhhhh
On October 29 2011 21:51 Archturus wrote: All these BW-Elitists are stupid! BW is dead and they just stick with it, because of nostalgia. SC2 is better in every aspect for the viewers/fans and its all about them, because they bring the money in the scene.
SC2 is actually worse in every aspect. We don't stick with BW because of nostalgia. We stick with it because it's a better game, better to watch, more exciting and way more skilful.
Thats why BW has 1% the fans/viewers/tourneys SC2 has...
Nope, it's because western people i just not as clever as korean viewership is and prefer shiny explosions to the true perfomance of skill.
And then we wonder how is it that they are better in every rts aspect.
FYI none of the progamers holding half a decent position in kespa rankings has switched to sc2 except MVP and ForGG. BW >>> SC2 in korea in terms of viewership.
You know what's true performance of skill? Ancient builders. People who built the great pyramid, babylon tower, hanging garden, collosus of rhodes,....
We give them respect, yes. But we will never ever be able to build stuff like that with their technology again. That would be foolish.
The world moved on, BW pro are moving on, why can't people just let it play out?
sigh... everytime i see these silly BW vs SC2 threads i just sigh. Its really so stupid watching both sides argue over something they have no control of. I dont deny that BW is a better game, cause it is balanced and the metagame is stable. But it has 10 years of development behind all that. Yet i see all the BW elitists saying SC2 will nvr be as good. I think such sweeping statements just add to the ridiculous amount of flaming happening in these threads. The SC2 fanboys are just riding on their excitement of a new esports scene developing outside of korea. SC2 has brought so much more than just SC2, for one example barcraft.
If u're nvr gonna give SC2 a chance, then just stick to BW and enjoy it while it lasts. No need to come over to flame the SC2 fanboys. And the SC2 fanboys should show respect to the people who allowed SC2 to even become so big. Why cant both parties just leave each other alone. BW has stopped growing but is not dead. and i dont think it will ever die. The hardcore fans will just continue watching it until its money inflow to BW stops and all the proplayers switch over. SC2 still has a few more years to go, and its still young. Give it time.
At the end, its good to be in a world where u can enjoy BOTH bw and sc2.
so mass bio was possible in bw as well... and all bw players complaining about how marines are OP, i see they are very good vs ultras in bw
Flash had a giant lead that game look at the supplies. And if Flash didn't have vessels , 1 lurker and 1 defiler could defeat Flash's entire army. Don't talk about things you don't understand. Most people talking about marines op are talking about how they counter all gas units of Zerg, and that they are always cost efficient. In BW, 11 mutalisks could wipe out all marines and turrets if Terran wasn't paying attention. Think of sc2 mutas sniping a medivac or tank which is slightly out of position. Now think of the same but done every second on slightly out of position marines (marines who are slightly off the edge of the ball). Terrans had to tech to science vessels after getting marines, expo, marine upgrades, medics and turrets before they could even move out of the base.
As for the video of Flash's macro, you can be sure that he is making 1 marine at a time at each rax and every time he sees his units pop out of the rax on the mini map, he goes back to the rax, manually, and clicks each single one. What does that remind you of? Larvae inject! Terran macro is exactly the same as larvae inject if you refuse to queue, which flash does. People mentioned he floated up to 500 minerals. That's exactly what should happen! By the time you reach 500, your marines are nearly done. Make 8 more and a depot, voilà 0. If you are consistently below 100 as Terran you are probably queuing.
On October 29 2011 21:51 Archturus wrote: All these BW-Elitists are stupid! BW is dead and they just stick with it, because of nostalgia. SC2 is better in every aspect for the viewers/fans and its all about them, because they bring the money in the scene.
SC2 is actually worse in every aspect. We don't stick with BW because of nostalgia. We stick with it because it's a better game, better to watch, more exciting and way more skilful.
Thats why BW has 1% the fans/viewers/tourneys SC2 has...
Nope, it's because western people i just not as clever as korean viewership is and prefer shiny explosions to the true perfomance of skill.
And then we wonder how is it that they are better in every rts aspect.
FYI none of the progamers holding half a decent position in kespa rankings has switched to sc2 except MVP and ForGG. BW >>> SC2 in korea in terms of viewership.
You know what's true performance of skill? Ancient builders. People who built the great pyramid, babylon tower, hanging garden, collosus of rhodes,....
We give them respect, yes. But we will never ever be able to build stuff like that with their technology again. That would be foolish.
The world moved on, BW pro are moving on, why can't people just let it play out?
I would rather watch Flash build me a pyramid with his technology , then watching him build a hyundai with a press of a button . Yes it is harder , but both me and Flash know that it's more rewarding .
On October 29 2011 20:52 infinity2k9 wrote: pdd this topic is related mainly to Korea though. I think the discussion of if it's spectator friendly is very relevant considering it didn't take off over there to expectations in the first place. Outside of Korea, no it doesn't matter.. but in Korea it's presenting to an audience already familiar with watching Starcraft. I don't think an eSport should ever have to die eventually like you are suggesting. No doubt it will but if a game turns out to be exactly appropriate as an eSport it doesn't necessarily need to die.
The reason why i said that was because comparing the two was the discussion before you posted. Even in the examples you give; mutalisk micro.. why is that going to marvel anyone? I'm not exactly a great mechanical player and i can keep them on the move/harassing nearly all the time too. Give them instant turning and they will be immediately more interesting to watch and control. I don't think it's much to expect.
On October 29 2011 20:43 dragonsuper wrote: -------I just don’t see what magical stuff Jaedong can do with unmicroable mutalisks, what stork can do with colossus (“the new reaver unit”) or how Jangbis storms will be any more impressive than other protoss players’ when everyone can storm like a progamer with smart-cast. SC2 is easier in all aspects so I wouldn’t get too excited, BW players cant break the rules of the game design, and if they do, Blizzard will patch a fix.--------
SO SAD and SO TRUE !!!!
Stutterstep micro is example of micro that i doubt devs thought of when they made the units attack animations instant. The fact that these litle tricks havent beed discovered yet dosent mean they werent there. You claim absolute knowledge in ignorance, and that i find sad.
You don't think the devs considered what's pretty much kiting? It's barely a trick. Please tell me how you could possibly even find something like that for Collosus... theoretically what could it do? The only ignorance is you trying to claim there's somehow going to be tricks for units which very clearly are not designed in a way that could allow it. Like i dunno, let's say you could make them move and shoot at the same time somehow, or break the range to fire a different length; that kind of thing would be patched. Not that those things would even be possible anyway but just for the sake of argument. Even if there could be tricks why is it a good thing to simply say 'wait for some unintended shit to happen then it will be better'.
First: Kiting and stutterstep micro are 2 differend things all together as stutterstep enables you to move and maintain extreme DPS even with extreme attack speeds such as stimmed marines. Kiting means you are avoiding taking damage whilst guiding your opponent around: for example running low HP stalker away in 4 gate vs 4 gate fight while your opponent is trying to kill that low HP stalker with most of hes stuff, ignoring rest of the units. Stutterstepping means that you are moving and keeping up maximum DPS of the unit. You can use stutterstep micro for chasing as is seen pretty much every prolevel game. You can use it for kiting too but it is not exclusively kiting.
Second: Whats this babble about colossus all the time? Yes its very clumsy unit with extremely long casting animation. It can be microed around high ground and over units and in colossus vs colossus battle its important that the lasers wont hit multiple colossus at same time, whitch is not impressive, but thats just colossus. There are what... 40 units in game? You realize that people want blizzard to buff unused units not because they are utter and complete garbage, but that tens of thousands of people would start testing the unit. Latest test subject is warp prism, before that was hellion, infestor, ghost, etc...
Third: Blizzard cant compete with all the players of SC2 when it comes into testing. They will realize that there is a flower in a map that gives away zerg spawning location, they will figure out all the absurdly annoying pylon placements. They will figure out that hellions can actually destroy mineral lines while blizzard were pondering how to change bunker in next patch. Vikingflower was a trick that got removed when blizzard realized just how powerful their patrol mechanics could be.
SC2 hasnt developed into its full potential yet and for you to claim absolute knowledge of its capabilities is both arrogant and foolish since even pros dont know it inside out.
On October 29 2011 21:51 Archturus wrote: All these BW-Elitists are stupid! BW is dead and they just stick with it, because of nostalgia. SC2 is better in every aspect for the viewers/fans and its all about them, because they bring the money in the scene.
SC2 is actually worse in every aspect. We don't stick with BW because of nostalgia. We stick with it because it's a better game, better to watch, more exciting and way more skilful.
Thats why BW has 1% the fans/viewers/tourneys SC2 has...
Nope, it's because western people i just not as clever as korean viewership is and prefer shiny explosions to the true perfomance of skill.
And then we wonder how is it that they are better in every rts aspect.
FYI none of the progamers holding half a decent position in kespa rankings has switched to sc2 except MVP and ForGG. BW >>> SC2 in korea in terms of viewership.
You know what's true performance of skill? Ancient builders. People who built the great pyramid, babylon tower, hanging garden, collosus of rhodes,....
We give them respect, yes. But we will never ever be able to build stuff like that with their technology again. That would be foolish.
The world moved on, BW pro are moving on, why can't people just let it play out?
I would rather watch Flash build me a pyramid with his technology , then watching him build a hyundai with a press of a button . Yes it is harder , but both me and Flash know that it's more rewarding .
The technology to build a car with the press of a button is impressive. Being able to press the button, not so much.
On October 29 2011 21:51 Archturus wrote: All these BW-Elitists are stupid! BW is dead and they just stick with it, because of nostalgia. SC2 is better in every aspect for the viewers/fans and its all about them, because they bring the money in the scene.
SC2 is actually worse in every aspect. We don't stick with BW because of nostalgia. We stick with it because it's a better game, better to watch, more exciting and way more skilful.
Thats why BW has 1% the fans/viewers/tourneys SC2 has...
Nope, it's because western people i just not as clever as korean viewership is and prefer shiny explosions to the true perfomance of skill.
And then we wonder how is it that they are better in every rts aspect.
FYI none of the progamers holding half a decent position in kespa rankings has switched to sc2 except MVP and ForGG. BW >>> SC2 in korea in terms of viewership.
You know what's true performance of skill? Ancient builders. People who built the great pyramid, babylon tower, hanging garden, collosus of rhodes,....
We give them respect, yes. But we will never ever be able to build stuff like that with their technology again. That would be foolish.
The world moved on, BW pro are moving on, why can't people just let it play out?
Firstly, i addressed my post to a different person.
Secondly, stop using stupid references to random shit like the one u brought up (this actually can be applied to bw fans bringing hockey, etc) because there will be a ton of specifics that one can come up with to prove this comparison wrong.
Lastly, i'm not here to argue what's better in fact - BW or SC2 (by that i mean, overall influence, not some certain aspects like micro variety, macro difficulty). I just say that those BW guys are playing on TV and it's up to the viewers to decide what they want. Judging from their attitude (no shitstorms of "Y U NO SC2 OGN?" calibre) they are more than satisfied with what they have. And yes, i'm more than sure that there is much more BW viewers in Korea than those pitiful 150k guys which we can hardly gather for the MLGs or Dreamhacks.
On October 29 2011 21:51 Archturus wrote: All these BW-Elitists are stupid! BW is dead and they just stick with it, because of nostalgia. SC2 is better in every aspect for the viewers/fans and its all about them, because they bring the money in the scene.
SC2 is actually worse in every aspect. We don't stick with BW because of nostalgia. We stick with it because it's a better game, better to watch, more exciting and way more skilful. I suggest you go away and play and watch some BW for six months before making such an ill informed comment. And money doesn't make a game better.
Better to watch is very subjective, I personally can't stand the visuals of BroodWar anymore. BroodWar NOW does require more skill, but as people get better in SC2 I think it'll end up on the same level or even beyond that (if humanly possible).
For example, in SC2 thanks to the fluid pathing units tend to clump up, which is baaaad with the aoe damage abilities in the game. In many instances now alot more units die in pro matches due clumping up then neccecary. I imagine in the future pro gamers able to spread their units in the most optimal way to receive the least amount of damage, etc etc.
Some parts in SC2 are easier, but I think that in some area's it's harder.
Oh and although BroodWar might be more exciting to watch, for a newcomer (it was only after SC2's announcement I purchased Brood War). For me, it was really hard to get into the game because the recent pro matches seemed to be only casted in Korean. I like personally understanding they're saying.
I see this thread as the last gasps of the die hard BW fans trashing SC2 because it is supposed to be inferior. I love SC2..I love the passionate fans at every tournament and the casters are great. Its the best thing since......forever......for Esports...we shall all praise SC2 and what it did for Esports.
The amount of SC2 fans who know no shit about BW or esports come here and say things like Rinnegan5 is far superior than nice SC2 fans like ColdLava... you bad SC2 fans give horrible image of the scene, stop being unreasonably dumb.
EPT
