On October 29 2011 21:29 Dillinger wrote: I am extremely conflicted. Still, even if I did follow BW for a long time, SC2 is a more enjoyable spectator sport. Yet it is clear that the game is not as hard, which in turn means that there probably can't be skill based domination in the scene, as BW has. However, seeing some of my all time favourite BW players playing a game that I am better at, have a better understanding of is so exciting I can't wait to see it. Flash. Flash is. Flash is God.
I think it would be great if the game wasn't just dominated by one player, but rather a tier of S-Class players. I mean in SC2, we're getting really close to getting to that point (even if half that tier are Terrans).
On October 29 2011 19:48 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: SC2 could obviously use tweaking still, but I don't understand why BW mechanics are held to be the epitome of gaming that all RTS's must aspire too. I can understand peoples opinions of what they like and what they are used to, but didn't BW micro arise from a crappy AI? Why cant a different micro arise from crappy SC2 AI? Why does SC2 micro need to mirror BW micro even thought its two differently designed games.
Seriously though, how? Battles happen extremely quick, and a lot of the units are just simply not friendly for any type of micro beyond kiting or moving back damaged units. And why would any other example than BW be used, that's the eSport that's been going for so long successfully and the previous game in the series. The reason it works is somewhat because of the fact units path individually rather than a group and spread out, but thats only partially the reason. How can you take say the Collosus and think there's anything beyond the surface to do that's interesting with it?
I don't know because I am not at a level where I can realistically predict how a high level player chooses to manipulate their units given two very crisp macros. The Colossus could have issues and need tweaking in the end, to diversify is tactical abilities, but we don't know yet. Perhaps its micro will come from a synergy between units. Maybe with the new nexus recall colossus could get a harassing type role where players use it more often and eventually work something out.
BW micro is insanely specific now right? minor difference in the angle of attack or how a unit moves ends up making huge differences in high level games. That came from a need to go beyond the macro and then push the micro as hard as possible. Also, 10 years of uses the same unit will teach a thing or two. SC2 doesn't need that level of detail yet. Players don't have the experience to point out the tiniest differences in unit behavior that comes from clicking certain commands and moving in certain directions. But I haven't seen a good reason for why they fundamentally cant do it eventually. Although I can almost guarantee that is won't be BW micro that is developed.
so mass bio was possible in bw as well... and all bw players complaining about how marines are OP, i see they are very good vs ultras in bw
Honestly that video always confused me...
All it shows is ~500 minerals banked and a lot of marine/medic walking around the map killing ultras, he could do that with queuing 5 at a time from each rax, no?
Is there a first person view VOD anywhere of him playing at high apm and hitting production cycles perfectly etc?
so mass bio was possible in bw as well... and all bw players complaining about how marines are OP, i see they are very good vs ultras in bw
Your post does not even make sense. Please watch a bit more BW, you'll see that ultras are in fact very good against marine for instance, and much more. I'm not sure any bw player has really complained that marines were "OP" too... Edit : Cyro, the reason this video is impressive is because we have a frame of reference of how much a player is supposed to have at a certain moment in the game. There it's clearly a looooooot of bio. Honestly I don't think this vid can impress anyone who has not played the game/watched a few TvZ before. As for Flash, he very rarely queues unit in the replays I've watched (cf replay section on TL for instance), and when you watch his games, they'll sometimes show his base, and you'll see barracks stopping to work for half a second or so. Pretty funny^^
^ bw players that have switched to sc2 were complaining that sc2 marines are way stronger than their predecesors, and should not be able to kill ultras, which is in fact, not true, judging by the mass marine medic strat used by flash
All these BW-Elitists are stupid! BW is dead and they just stick with it, because of nostalgia. SC2 is better in every aspect for the viewers/fans and its all about them, because they bring the money in the scene.
On October 29 2011 21:51 Archturus wrote: All these BW-Elitists are stupid! BW is dead and they just stick with it, because of nostalgia. SC2 is better in every aspect for the viewers/fans and its all about them, because they bring the money in the scene.
so mass bio was possible in bw as well... and all bw players complaining about how marines are OP, i see they are very good vs ultras in bw
Your post does not even make sense. Please watch a bit more BW, you'll see that ultras are in fact very good against marine for instance, and much more. I'm not sure any bw player has really complained that marines were "OP" too... Edit : Cyro, the reason this video is impressive is because we have a frame of reference of how much a player is supposed to have at a certain moment in the game. There it's clearly a looooooot of bio. Honestly I don't think this vid can impress anyone who has not played the game/watched a few TvZ before. As for Flash, he very rarely queues unit in the replays I've watched (cf replay section on TL for instance), and when you watch his games, they'll sometimes show his base, and you'll see barracks stopping to work for half a second or so. Pretty funny^^
Ive played the game a ton, just find it hard to see a lot of stuff that is aparantly impressive :\
On October 29 2011 21:49 Manimal_pro wrote: ^ bw players that have switched to sc2 were complaining that sc2 marines are way stronger than their predecesors, and should not be able to kill ultras, which is in fact, not true, judging by the mass marine medic strat used by flash
Flash is at a huge advantage at that point in the game. Noone thinks marines in the right number should not be able to kill ultras. If you want to see how strong ultras are, I suggest you watch a bit more than a 30 second clip. Edit : Cyro when you mean you've played the game a lot, do you mean competitively ? Have you ever tried to execute a standard pre defiler push ? And if Flash queued units, his macro wouldn't seem that good, he would have less units because he would have built less production facility.
On October 29 2011 00:44 Chill wrote: This thread is a mess. I'm locking it for 30 minutes so everyone can read this:
SC2 Players: Consider that there are people who still love the BW community and feel like their game and community are preemptively being killed. Everybody who played BW and SC2 at a high level know that, in their current form, BW is a more difficult and more balanced game. It's an exciting time for SC2, but be respectful to the BW community.
BW Players: Consider that there's a large community of new players that are just excited. They aren't necessarily being disrespectful, they are just excited for the possibilities coming to the game they love. Don't assume they are knowledgable about your community and your love and are purposefully and spitefully attacking it.
Thanks. Be back in 30.
how is that not a white text, can we get a white text? (not that it would help *sob*)
On October 29 2011 21:51 Archturus wrote: All these BW-Elitists are stupid! BW is dead and they just stick with it, because of nostalgia. SC2 is better in every aspect for the viewers/fans and its all about them, because they bring the money in the scene.
I heard it's nice in Disneyland, you want to go there?
On October 29 2011 21:51 Archturus wrote: All these BW-Elitists are stupid! BW is dead and they just stick with it, because of nostalgia. SC2 is better in every aspect for the viewers/fans and its all about them, because they bring the money in the scene.
picked the wrong forum / community buddy, go back to Bnet forums with that attitude.
this is such great news, I CANNOT wait to see how the BW players transition into SC2 when it happens. I'm also glad the top korean BW pros are being humble about their levels of skill in SC2 and respecting the fact that it is not such an easy game as many BW die-hards would perhaps say. (Perhaps some lesser BW players could learn from this humility). I think this is going to be an incredibly exciting move when it happens, as we will have a new challenge to be interested in. As well as the on-going koreans vs foreigners battle, we will also have the the challenge of the new BW pros on the scene vs the current SC2 pros! I think people should stop arguing constantly and just be excited... :D
so mass bio was possible in bw as well... and all bw players complaining about how marines are OP, i see they are very good vs ultras in bw
fyi SK terran (pure mm science vessel) is considered, and for a good reason, the hardest to pull off style in lategame tvz due to the ridiculous amount of multitasking/micro required. The fight part of the video is a very bad example of a lategame tvz fight, for the zerg is not utilizing the single most important spell in the game: the spell that _literally_ makes the ultralisks unaffected by marine fire.
so mass bio was possible in bw as well... and all bw players complaining about how marines are OP, i see they are very good vs ultras in bw
fyi SK terran (pure mm science vessel) is considered, and for a good reason, the hardest to pull off style in lategame tvz due to the ridiculous amount of multitasking/micro required. The fight part of the video is a very bad example of a lategame tvz fight, for the zerg is not utilizing the single most important spell in the game: the spell that _literally_ makes the ultralisks unaffected by marine fire.
On October 29 2011 21:51 Archturus wrote: All these BW-Elitists are stupid! BW is dead and they just stick with it, because of nostalgia. SC2 is better in every aspect for the viewers/fans and its all about them, because they bring the money in the scene.
SC2 is actually worse in every aspect. We don't stick with BW because of nostalgia. We stick with it because it's a better game, better to watch, more exciting and way more skilful. I suggest you go away and play and watch some BW for six months before making such an ill informed comment. And money doesn't make a game better.
so mass bio was possible in bw as well... and all bw players complaining about how marines are OP, i see they are very good vs ultras in bw
fyi SK terran (pure mm science vessel) is considered, and for a good reason, the hardest to pull off style in lategame tvz due to the ridiculous amount of multitasking/micro required. The fight part of the video is a very bad example of a lategame tvz fight, for the zerg is not utilizing the single most important spell in the game: the spell that _literally_ makes the ultralisks unaffected by marine fire.
Dark Swarm (don't expect the other guy to guess what you mean, if he doesn't play BW) Man, I wish anyone who hasn't played BW ever would just go to iCCup, get that BW client and try some games vs the computer to learn the tech tree etc. Pretty sure any SC2 fan would enjoy the game, just because it's starcraft, if not for any other reason.
On October 29 2011 21:51 Archturus wrote: All these BW-Elitists are stupid! BW is dead and they just stick with it, because of nostalgia. SC2 is better in every aspect for the viewers/fans and its all about them, because they bring the money in the scene.
SC2 is actually worse in every aspect. We don't stick with BW because of nostalgia. We stick with it because it's a better game, better to watch, more exciting and way more skilful.
Thats why BW has 1% the fans/viewers/tourneys SC2 has...
EPT
Dark Swarm
