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Torpedo.Vegas
United States1890 Posts
Perhaps the methodology of baby-sitting individual units its a good marker of BW skill, but whose to say a different skill to combat SC2 AI would arise when the need to push you game further against rising competition occurs. Right now there is no need for fancy micro, BW or otherwise. You can win top games if your SC2 macro is good enough. Eventually that wont be enough so there will need to be another outlet to differentiate yourself, where will that be I wonder? | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On October 29 2011 19:36 pdd wrote: Wrong. Watch Polt vs MMA Super Tournament Finals Metapolis game when he spreads his bio against sieged tanks. Players can force their units to spread as they advance by selecting a small group of them and move commanding them off to the side before a-moving. Also a lot of players have learnt to spread out their units before engagements, so that when the units engage, they clump up less. You don't need to be moving backwards to spread your units. You just need to not A-move temporarily. Right, we all forgot about the Amazing Marine Micro and all it's possibilities because it's not mentioned constantly as the only example. Marines did already exist you know and they had medics as an extra possibility for tactical use as well. Marine vs banelings is all well and good (although Zerg's role is quite passive), but i think there needs to be more than that. On October 29 2011 19:48 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: SC2 could obviously use tweaking still, but I don't understand why BW mechanics are held to be the epitome of gaming that all RTS's must aspire too. I can understand peoples opinions of what they like and what they are used to, but didn't BW micro arise from a crappy AI? Why cant a different micro arise from crappy SC2 AI? Why does SC2 micro need to mirror BW micro even thought its two differently designed games. Seriously though, how? Battles happen extremely quick, and a lot of the units are just simply not friendly for any type of micro beyond kiting or moving back damaged units. And why would any other example than BW be used, that's the eSport that's been going for so long successfully and the previous game in the series. The reason it works is somewhat because of the fact units path individually rather than a group and spread out, but thats only partially the reason. How can you take say the Collosus and think there's anything beyond the surface to do that's interesting with it? | ||
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
Right, we all forgot about the Amazing Marine Micro and all it's possibilities because it's not mentioned constantly as the only example. Marines did already exist you know and they had medics as an extra possibility for tactical use as well. Marine vs banelings is all well and good (although Zerg's role is quite passive), but i think there needs to be more than that. For fucks sake can you stop turning every single argument into a SC2 vs BW argument. I wasn't even talking about Brood War. We get it. SC2 is not Brood War. | ||
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thepuppyassassin
900 Posts
On October 29 2011 20:02 pdd wrote: For fucks sake can you stop turning every single argument into a SC2 vs BW argument. I wasn't even talking about Brood War. We get it. SC2 is not Brood War. sigh.... It's really not is it? | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
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setmeal
162 Posts
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SEA KarMa
Australia452 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5419 Posts
On October 29 2011 20:02 pdd wrote: For fucks sake can you stop turning every single argument into a SC2 vs BW argument. I wasn't even talking about Brood War. We get it. SC2 is not Brood War. How is his post BW vs. SC2? From my experience all SC2 fans want SC2 to have many more interactions like the one between Marines and Banelings (because it's spectacular, showcases great skill, is very dynamic and makes the battles flexible - not just unit A > unit B), but whenever someone mentions BW, you all get extremely defensive. Marines vs. Banelings is the most BW-esque aspect of SC2. Making SC2 more like BW is a good thing (you don't have to change the UI to do that). Every SC2 fan agrees with that. It's just that most of them won't admit that... BW is full of such interactions. Having more of that in SC2 would make it a much better spectator sport, wouldn't it? | ||
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
On October 29 2011 20:18 infinity2k9 wrote: That was the discussion though. You don't have to compare it to anything (although it makes sense to, why wouldn't you), it's not enough to make a long-term interesting spectator game for a lot of people, and the additions in HotS are not particularly going to change that either it seems. If it stays like that a lot of current supporters won't even retain interest i suspect. You don't know. You are only making baseless assumptions. Look at LoL. It's a million times easier and simpler than Dota, but yet it gets much more viewers than HoN (which is pretty much the most true-to-original-Dota game besides Dota 2), and could likely do better when Dota 2 comes out. Heck LoL is much harder to understand than SC2, yet draws in more numbers. Who woulda thought? Fact is, SC2 is many times more popular than BW outside of Korea, many of whom have never ever been exposed to the BW scene. Who cares if SC2 will die eventually? That's an argument for the future. At the moment it draws in the viewers. Kespa know what they're doing if they're going to move into SC2. If they don't see it as financially viable or spectator friendly then they won't implement it and all these SC2 vs BW arguments will stop for the moment. If they do go ahead with it, who knows what will happen to BW. It could still remain (and we could all be happy), or it could die off as well. Ultimately your arguments over which is the more spectator friendly game/skill-based isn't going to change Kespa's decisions. My personal opinion: SC2 has evolved so much since release and it can only get better. I'm entertained by it. I'm entertained by the occasional BW. I couldn't be arsed if one dies or another. For the next 3-5 years at least SC2 will definitely be staying, and that's sufficient for me. If you're not entertained by it, just don't watch it. Stop setting targets and expectations for it and just let it grow on its own. On October 29 2011 20:25 maybenexttime wrote: How is his post BW vs. SC2? From my experience all SC2 fans want SC2 to have many more interactions like the one between Marines and Banelings (because it's spectacular, showcases great skill, is very dynamic and makes the battles flexible - not just unit A > unit B), but whenever someone mentions BW, you all get extremely defensive. Marines vs. Banelings is the most BW-esque aspect of SC2. Making SC2 more like BW is a good thing (you don't have to change the UI to do that). Every SC2 fan agrees with that. It's just that most of them won't admit that... BW is full of such interactions. Having more of that in SC2 would make it a much better spectator sport, wouldn't it? Because my initial post wasnt even addressing SC2 vs BW and yet, he made it sound as if I was trying to play up the fact that I was promoting SC2's micro mechanics. For the record, I'm not an SC2 fan or a BW fan. I enjoy both, although I follow SC2 more. And this game is still new. There's a lot of space for more improvements and new things marvel over as a spectator (blink micro, immortal/warp prism micro, mutalisk micro, the scouting stalker vs marines early game exchanges) But frankly this isn't even the place to discuss and argue over it. Let SC2 grow on its own without setting a target for it. Of course it would be great if it were more BW-esque, but if it had very spectator friendly WC3 (or other RTS elements to it), who's to say it's a bad thing? | ||
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Hittomogasin
Finland80 Posts
On October 29 2011 19:05 sluggaslamoo wrote: In the marine vs baneling example, can you move marines forwards while attacking and spreading at the same time to fight banelings? maybe its possible, but it would require so much attention that you wouldn't have any time to macro. In which case you probably won't see pros doing that. You can only spread marines against banelings and same against collosus by moving backwards. This is a problem because when you are advancing you will be stuck with moving clumped, and this makes 200/200 armies look tiny and isn't very spectacular when you eventually get the cliche SC2 ball vs ball smashing into each other. Yes, you can move forward and even fight with stutterstep micro while doing so. Takes absurd amount of skill but you CAN do it and since its much easier to macro in SC2 you can spend more time into micro and other maneuvers. Also you must remember that single marine takes 2 baneling hits to actually kill it. With good enough spread you can force zerg to be very cost inefficient with hes banelings. In the very least spreading marines forces zerg to run hes banelings more, thus buying more time for siege tanks to lay pain on top of those banes. Not sure why youd want to fight colossus with pure marines. At that stage of the game youd have vikings, marauder and ghosts out aswell, that have their own purposes i might add. Ball vs ball in PvT seems to be more of dodging EMP. | ||
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dragonsuper
Liechtenstein222 Posts
SO SAD and SO TRUE !!!!  | ||
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Hittomogasin
Finland80 Posts
On October 29 2011 20:43 dragonsuper wrote: -------I just don’t see what magical stuff Jaedong can do with unmicroable mutalisks, what stork can do with colossus (“the new reaver unit”) or how Jangbis storms will be any more impressive than other protoss players’ when everyone can storm like a progamer with smart-cast. SC2 is easier in all aspects so I wouldn’t get too excited, BW players cant break the rules of the game design, and if they do, Blizzard will patch a fix.-------- SO SAD and SO TRUE !!!! Stutterstep micro is example of micro that i doubt devs thought of when they made the units attack animations instant. The fact that these litle tricks havent beed discovered yet dosent mean they werent there. You claim absolute knowledge in ignorance, and that i find sad. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
The reason why i said that was because comparing the two was the discussion before you posted. Even in the examples you give; mutalisk micro.. why is that going to marvel anyone? I'm not exactly a great mechanical player and i can keep them on the move/harassing nearly all the time too. Give them instant turning and they will be immediately more interesting to watch and control. I don't think it's much to expect. On October 29 2011 20:49 Hittomogasin wrote: Stutterstep micro is example of micro that i doubt devs thought of when they made the units attack animations instant. The fact that these litle tricks havent beed discovered yet dosent mean they werent there. You claim absolute knowledge in ignorance, and that i find sad. You don't think the devs considered what's pretty much kiting? It's barely a trick. Please tell me how you could possibly even find something like that for Collosus... theoretically what could it do? The only ignorance is you trying to claim there's somehow going to be tricks for units which very clearly are not designed in a way that could allow it. Like i dunno, let's say you could make them move and shoot at the same time somehow, or break the range to fire a different length; that kind of thing would be patched. Not that those things would even be possible anyway but just for the sake of argument. Even if there could be tricks why is it a good thing to simply say 'wait for some unintended shit to happen then it will be better'. | ||
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
On October 29 2011 20:49 Hittomogasin wrote: Stutterstep micro is example of micro that i doubt devs thought of when they made the units attack animations instant. The fact that these litle tricks havent beed discovered yet dosent mean they werent there. You claim absolute knowledge in ignorance, and that i find sad. I think they were aware of it. Stutterstep micro is just an offshoot of the WC3 animation cancelling micro, which is almost a must in Dota at least, and probably situational in regular WC3. | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
Mind = blown | ||
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konadora
Singapore66071 Posts
think about why people like Boxer, Yellow, Nada and July couldn't perform towards the end of their BW careers. | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5585 Posts
Jaedong, don't swich, don't break my heart. | ||
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
pdd this topic is related mainly to Korea though. I think the discussion of if it's spectator friendly is very relevant considering it didn't take off over there to expectations in the first place. Outside of Korea, no it doesn't matter.. but in Korea it's presenting to an audience already familiar with watching Starcraft. I don't think an eSport should ever have to die eventually like you are suggesting. No doubt it will but if a game turns out to be exactly appropriate as an eSport it doesn't necessarily need to die. The reason why i said that was because comparing the two was the discussion before you posted. Even in the examples you give; mutalisk micro.. why is that going to marvel anyone? I'm not exactly a great mechanical player and i can keep them on the move/harassing nearly all the time too. Give them instant turning and they will be immediately more interesting to watch and control. I don't think it's much to expect. First of all I agree that adding things which very few people can pull off very well, will make the game more interesting and dynamic. However there are two things that you also need to consider, on two levels: 1. At the casual level, most casual spectators won't know how difficult it is to perform certain micro tricks. They'll just be happy with something which is uncommon and seems cool. 2. At a more advanced level, there are nifty things which are being done each new time I watch the game (yes it was the same in BW too, but SC2 is newer and provides more opportunities for that), whether it be new builds and timings, new ways of doing something, small tricks (mineral optimisation, probe harassment), scouting habits. Who's to say that there's a limit to that? Storm drops only started getting popular very recently. The limits of multipronged harassments keep getting higher and higher. I remember when MMA was one of the first guy to do it, and now more and more people are doing it at an even better rate, despite the fact that everyone has also gotten better at defending. I look back now on GSL 1 and the games being played today, and I still feel that game quality will just keep improving. | ||
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Bleak
Turkey3059 Posts
On October 29 2011 21:03 konadora wrote: for people who think APM and mechanics isn't as important... think about why people like Boxer, Yellow, Nada and July couldn't perform towards the end of their BW careers. I think Boxer himself said that speed was not an issue, it was more like as you age, your mind wanders off to other things like future, relationships, your career etc. , so it becomes harder to focus. | ||
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Dillinger
17 Posts
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