Why the fuck would that matter when they clearly care more about balance in Diamond and below on the ladder, than in actual tournaments?
What do you base this on? They changed maybe a few things for the lower leagues but the vast majority of the balance are based on what's happening at the pro level. Just look at the latest Protoss and ghost changes.
Look at the Dustin Browder video interview with Kennigit. He acknowledges there is a problem with PvT in GM Korea but is unwilling to take drastic steps to fix it because balance is good at other levels. I applaud his efforts to balance the game at every level as he certainly has an obligation not just to pros but to everyone who's ever bought a CD key but what he wants is impossible. You can't have it both ways, either you balance for pros or for joes.
Basically, it's just a graph to all you people under the false impression BW is actually balanced.
-Milkis
More difficult? Can't really dispute the truth of that. Relevance, possibly, but that is really the only plank one could go after. Even that'd be pretty tenuous.
Balanced? Not quite so much.
There are many things wrong with SC2. The Colossus is a "ruining esports" unit. The units are, on the whole, un-inspired and very 1a2a3a (or 1a (or a if you're Terran)), with the possible exception of the Hellion, Raven, and Queen. These last few are not points I intend to contend, just stating that there are things wrong with SC2 that are wholly not-sensationalist.
Proleague 2010-11 win rates:
Terran: 49% Zerg: 50% Protoss: 51%
On balanced maps, BW has perfect balance. A lesser Zerg will not defeat Bisu in PL anytime soon unless Bisu plays below normal standard.
Is it possible for Sc2 to be balanced like this? Possibly, Daybreak is incredibly fair and is by far the best map in the pool. But looking at 1/1/1, and reactor hellion variations, I simply cannot see true balance.
Well the last team league (closest to proleague we had) win rates were TvZ: 47.5% ZvP: 52.8% PvT: 50%
i'd say thats pretty damn close to BW stats.
Indeed its pretty close, and certainly balance of GSTL is what makes it great to watch. However, the fact that you can pick the map, and one person can get multiple kills is what makes these numbers less reliable. Z>T could be attributed to DRG never losing to mediocre Terrans would be an example.
In BW pl, you sent out a player on a particular map and they played once. If a map particularly favoured one race over another, that map would often have a mirror. Eg Xelnaga Caverns would be exclusively TvT and Protoss would not play on Dual Sight at all. This means that you will only play your race on balanced maps (leading to balanced win %age), or play on imba maps (and play mirror).
On October 29 2011 04:27 sGs.Kal_rA wrote: Do me a favor and show me an sc2 game (or even a one minute clip) that has this kind of finesse and excitement.
Ah I have seen this video so many times over the years, and it still amazes me. I can only imagine what these players will bring to SC2 when their play appears in proleague.
Am I the only one who doesn't really find that video insanely impressive? I am impressed ofc that he can spider mine dodge + focus fire that well and in that many places but I'm not wow'd. Just more like "oh that's cool, I wish I could do that"
I see it as completely comparable to when a terran can micro a group of 10 marines and focus down 10 banelings while being attacked by zerglings. Yea it happens faster, but I get the same level of "wow" factor.
stop comparing a 10year bw to a 1year old sc2, thats just retarded. just be glad the starcraft legacy will live on. support sc2 and make it as good as bw.
On October 29 2011 04:27 sGs.Kal_rA wrote: Do me a favor and show me an sc2 game (or even a one minute clip) that has this kind of finesse and excitement. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqsSrWZciY0
Ah I have seen this video so many times over the years, and it still amazes me. I can only imagine what these players will bring to SC2 when their play appears in proleague.
Am I the only one who doesn't really find that video insanely impressive? I am impressed ofc that he can spider mine dodge + focus fire that well and in that many places but I'm not wow'd. Just more like "oh that's cool, I wish I could do that"
I see it as completely comparable to when a terran can micro a group of 10 marines and focus down 10 banelings while being attacked by zerglings. Yea it happens faster, but I get the same level of "wow" factor.
sure, a group of 10 marines vs 10 banelings is cool. now imagine 20 marines against 10 banelings, 6 lings and 4 roaches in a little patch of land (about the space of a square made of 4 barracks), and your marines have a 0.5 second delay before they do damage
im not shitting on bling vs marine micro by any means, im just trying to paint an accurate picture that could be understood in sc2 terms. marine vs bling is just move attack move attack as you retreat, it doesn't involve you selecting individual groups of 3~4 marines and clicking on individual blings or other units
On October 29 2011 04:32 Gabriel Verlaine wrote: + Show Spoiler +
On October 29 2011 04:27 sGs.Kal_rA wrote: Mechanics aside, MSL prelim games are just more entertaining to watch than the GSL Finals.... I just don't see sc2 lasting more than 2-3 years after LoV is out.
Engagements in BW are just more... epic. Units are spread over multiple screens, and they just dont die as fast, giving players time to micro and dance with what they have. Plus the unit's themselves are just so perfect. I dunno how blizzard came up with them, but its pure genius... Its going to be hard to replicate that kind of magic again (they have come close with sc2, but it just isn't there yet).
To all hardcore sc2 fans that say "just BW die already": Do me a favor and show me an sc2 game (or even a one minute clip) that has this kind of finesse and excitement. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqsSrWZciY0
I wanna see more of this. Sure MPK can micro his marines against blings, but besides that there is very little crazy kinds of engagements that have you on the edge of your seat while watching.
I haven't seen this before... It's so beatiful... I miss my goons Thansk for bringing this to me. Makes me miss BW oh so much.
NP, but uuh "miss BW"?? BW hasn't gone anywhere.. Just wait like a couple weeks and proleague and OSL will be back in full swing (if all goes well)
On October 29 2011 04:50 Tsuki.eu wrote: stop comparing a 10year bw to a 1year old sc2, thats just retarded. just be glad the starcraft legacy will live on. support sc2 and make it as good as bw.
A year and a half ago the Starcraft BroodWar scene had none of the worrying of not having an MSL or OSL, or a full Pro League.
BroodWar players and fans are threatened of losing the game we have loved for over a decade. Show some respect please.
On October 29 2011 04:38 croupier wrote: sGs.Kal_rA ,
As someone who doesn't watch BW at all I'm not able to understand why that video is so epic. And guaranteed it's because I don't know much about BW the game, and I don't know the skill involved in what Bisu is actually doing in that clip. I'm not saying the video isn't awesome, I'm saying that I personally don't understand it.
Showing that clip to people like me who watch SC2 doesn't make us say "Ohhhh, that's what makes BW awesome!". It just makes us confused.
If you want to have the intended effect of sharing how awesome BW is, then unfortunately you'll have to also include some commentary on why the clip is awesome. What should i be looking for in order to be impressed? Outside of the video content itself, what is going on with the player that would make this harder than just the video shows?
Bisu is dancing each individual Dragoon away from the spider mines, while focus firing the mines. Think of this as marine splitting vs. banelings while also focus firing the banelings and not the zerglings. It is practically beyond comprehension the level of mouse dexterity Bisu needed to pull that off.
Flash cant really be one of those players can he? I don't know what to think..I like watching him play BW but SC2 is a great game also ugh. This is like cheating on a girl and telling everyone in public before you dump the girl you are currently with, its really sick shit.
On October 29 2011 03:56 Alpina wrote: do you think pros like jaedong, flash really going to dominate current pros? Because everyone was talking the same when boxer, july, nada switched but they are pretty much on the same level as everyone else now.
On October 29 2011 03:58 Chill wrote: What about July? Golden mouse holder and he's not smashing SC2! I don't think it's as easy as flick a switch and BW pros now dominate SC2.
Jeadong and Flash are the current best bw pros. Boxer and nada were the best at bw 5+ years ago.
On October 29 2011 00:01 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote: I cant wait for the BW pros to switch over so they can get man handled. It doesnt take too much talent to be the top player at a game that only a handful of players play. SC2 increased the player count many times over. It's funny to see all these BW fanboys speaking hypothetical about their heroes dominating the SC2, but you damn well know in their hearts they're hoping they don't switch because then if players like FlaSh, Jaedong, Bisu switch and become good, but don't reach the mind boggling heights of their BW glory, it just proves that they're not RTS gods, just exceptional BW players that were able to excel in a mechanically difficult game -- remember this is a strategy game, it shouldn't take 400 APM to execute a strategy. Also BW became a very niche thing over the years, like curling.
wow. can u write even more bullshit??
what the! if you have 400 APM and you are still on PAR with a guy with 100 APM, then the game is screwed. It will be like any ordinary crap RTS games in which practising more has no effect.
Go play Spam Click v3 then. 400 APM were needed because the game was stupidly user unfriendly. It is not anymore, allowing more people without nerdy skills and time to express their strategical abilities. In a strategy game, that is what is important.
You are right, people who only play 2-3 hours a day should have the same results as people who play 12-14, that shows that the game is properly built and fit to be considered a "sport".
Mechanics should be as important as strategy, hence the "Real Time" aspect of RTS, you know, were APM is basically a resource you have to allocate to win? If you don't think APM should matter I'm not sure starcraft is the game for you.
Consider this, should a brilliant strategic genius with 20 APM, beat a "mediocre" strategist who has 200 APM? I think the answer is obviously not, half the game is coming up with the strategy, the other half is executing it. Would things like MKP mass hellion build in MLG be exciting if it didn't require effort to execute and defend? Of course not, without requiring mechanics the game becomes a glorified TBS.
I get your point and yes, there should be some sort of mechanic to prevent new players dominating the established players. But there are good ways to do that, and stupid ways. Supply block is the "good" example. Babysitting a newly created scv every time it is built is stupid and idiotic.
Things like MBS and Smartcast, I think one can argue about them and there's much to discuss regarding it, I'm not completely convinced on both sides on those issues, on the one hand if it can be automated, then it is best to create the most efficient gaming experience as possible. On the other hand, yes, it will definitely raise the skill cap.
On October 29 2011 04:50 Tsuki.eu wrote: stop comparing a 10year bw to a 1year old sc2, thats just retarded. just be glad the starcraft legacy will live on. support sc2 and make it as good as bw.
A year and a half ago the Starcraft BroodWar scene had none of the worrying of not having an MSL or OSL, or a full Pro League.
BroodWar players and fans are threatened of losing the game we have loved for over a decade. Show some respect please.
Sure we'll show respect to bw, when bw fans start showing respect to sc2.
Why the fuck would that matter when they clearly care more about balance in Diamond and below on the ladder, than in actual tournaments?
What do you base this on? They changed maybe a few things for the lower leagues but the vast majority of the balance are based on what's happening at the pro level. Just look at the latest Protoss and ghost changes.
Look at the Dustin Browder video interview with Kennigit. He acknowledges there is a problem with PvT in GM Korea but is unwilling to take drastic steps to fix it because balance is good at other levels. I applaud his efforts to balance the game at every level as he certainly has an obligation not just to pros but to everyone who's ever bought a CD key but what he wants is impossible. You can't have it both ways, either you balance for pros or for joes.
Pretty sure the big EMP nerf and changes to Toss upgrades might definitely be good enough to ease some of the pains of high level PvT.
Basically, it's just a graph to all you people under the false impression BW is actually balanced.
-Milkis
More difficult? Can't really dispute the truth of that. Relevance, possibly, but that is really the only plank one could go after. Even that'd be pretty tenuous.
Balanced? Not quite so much.
There are many things wrong with SC2. The Colossus is a "ruining esports" unit. The units are, on the whole, un-inspired and very 1a2a3a (or 1a (or a if you're Terran)), with the possible exception of the Hellion, Raven, and Queen. These last few are not points I intend to contend, just stating that there are things wrong with SC2 that are wholly not-sensationalist.
Proleague 2010-11 win rates:
Terran: 49% Zerg: 50% Protoss: 51%
On balanced maps, BW has perfect balance. A lesser Zerg will not defeat Bisu in PL anytime soon unless Bisu plays below normal standard.
Is it possible for Sc2 to be balanced like this? Possibly, Daybreak is incredibly fair and is by far the best map in the pool. But looking at 1/1/1, and reactor hellion variations, I simply cannot see true balance.
Well the last team league (closest to proleague we had) win rates were TvZ: 47.5% ZvP: 52.8% PvT: 50%
i'd say thats pretty damn close to BW stats.
Indeed its pretty close, and certainly balance of GSTL is what makes it great to watch. However, the fact that you can pick the map, and one person can get multiple kills is what makes these numbers less reliable. Z>T could be attributed to DRG never losing to mediocre Terrans would be an example.
In BW pl, you sent out a player on a particular map and they played once. If a map particularly favoured one race over another, that map would often have a mirror. Eg Xelnaga Caverns would be exclusively TvT and Protoss would not play on Dual Sight at all. This means that you will only play your race on balanced maps (leading to balanced win %age), or play on imba maps (and play mirror).
BW balance problem is solved. You can make a map where zerg never loses, protoss never loses, or terran never loses at pro level. Basically, the races are diverse enough to be completely malleable by maps
On October 29 2011 04:27 sGs.Kal_rA wrote: Do me a favor and show me an sc2 game (or even a one minute clip) that has this kind of finesse and excitement. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqsSrWZciY0
Ah I have seen this video so many times over the years, and it still amazes me. I can only imagine what these players will bring to SC2 when their play appears in proleague.
Am I the only one who doesn't really find that video insanely impressive? I am impressed ofc that he can spider mine dodge + focus fire that well and in that many places but I'm not wow'd. Just more like "oh that's cool, I wish I could do that"
I see it as completely comparable to when a terran can micro a group of 10 marines and focus down 10 banelings while being attacked by zerglings. Yea it happens faster, but I get the same level of "wow" factor.
You have the soon-to-be best player and terran in all of BW, with a superior force, be out microed by the best protoss. The closest SC2 analogy would be holding off a bigger force of tanks and baneling launchers (vultures) with slower stalkers (dragoons) and zealots.
On October 29 2011 02:22 L_Master wrote: This is Bisu in full swing:
For those discussing the APM vs meaningful APM such a measure was devised for broodwar called EAPM that factored out the spam. Most of the BW players that were considered fast and great multitaskers generally had between 300-400 APM, and about 200-250 EAPM depending on the game.
Needless to say, Bisu is no Vibe, and as you can see from the video Bisu is not doing very much spamming at all, it really is 80-90% meaningful clicks.
Wow thats fucking amazing. I don't think any current SC2 player can multitask that well even with the easier mechanics, less maybe MVP.
This is no rip on the SC2 guys, its just that Bisu was known for being head and shoulders above almost everyone in BW at multitasking, including many strong BW players known for being quick and solid mechanically. I haven't heard any SC2 pros being noted for having truly insane multi-task so far either.
MMA can multitask even better. In sc2 rating I've seen his apm reaching 700(680 to be precise). His last game vs boxer at anaheim was the perfect example. He was dropping at 2 or 3 places while keeping his main bio army split in two dancing with the huge amount of boxers tanks,trying to outposition him, which he did. He was also macroing meanwhile. Such a monster.
Tldr:not starting a xx vs yy war, I'm just a MMA fanboy.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.whitecosmos.com/sc/balance/TvZ.png)
