Basically, it's just a graph to all you people under the false impression BW is actually balanced.
-Milkis
More difficult? Can't really dispute the truth of that. Relevance, possibly, but that is really the only plank one could go after. Even that'd be pretty tenuous.
Balanced? Not quite so much.
There are many things wrong with SC2. The Colossus is a "ruining esports" unit. The units are, on the whole, un-inspired and very 1a2a3a (or 1a (or a if you're Terran)), with the possible exception of the Hellion, Raven, and Queen. These last few are not points I intend to contend, just stating that there are things wrong with SC2 that are wholly not-sensationalist.
Proleague 2010-11 win rates:
Terran: 49% Zerg: 50% Protoss: 51%
On balanced maps, BW has perfect balance. A lesser Zerg will not defeat Bisu in PL anytime soon unless Bisu plays below normal standard.
Is it possible for Sc2 to be balanced like this? Possibly, Daybreak is incredibly fair and is by far the best map in the pool. But looking at 1/1/1, and reactor hellion variations, I simply cannot see true balance.
Daybreak:
ZvP: 10-17 (37%)
Small sample size, but I only have a feeling this stat is going to get even more and more one sided.
On October 29 2011 04:26 Evangelist wrote: We should respect Brood War players because they have provided epic games, but many of our current pros also came from Warcraft 3, a game that required damn near as much macro and a hundred times more micro than any iteration of Brood War.
sorry but wc3 macro <<<<<<<<<<<< bw macro. MBS and on top of that wc3 was built to have a focus on micro and not macro.
You could queue up 3 Druid of the talons at one ancient of wind and it would barely change the outcome of the game. I've watched pro wc3 replays and their macro in that game is awful, not because they are bad (wc3 players have sick macro in sc2), but because you simply didn't need good macro. Heck worker production was ceased in mid game in wc3.
On October 29 2011 04:27 sGs.Kal_rA wrote: Mechanics aside, MSL prelim games are just more entertaining to watch than the GSL Finals.... I just don't see sc2 lasting more than 2-3 years after LoV is out.
Engagements in BW are just more... epic. Units are spread over multiple screens, and they just dont die as fast, giving players time to micro and dance with what they have. Plus the unit's themselves are just so perfect. I dunno how blizzard came up with them, but its pure genius... Its going to be hard to replicate that kind of magic again (they have come close with sc2, but it just isn't there yet).
To all hardcore sc2 fans that say "just BW die already": Do me a favor and show me an sc2 game (or even a one minute clip) that has this kind of finesse and excitement.
I wanna see more of this. Sure MPK can micro his marines against blings, but besides that there is very little crazy kinds of engagements that have you on the edge of your seat while watching.
Not only does this almost not exist in sc2 but when it does happen, it's a little too fast. That video shows how exciting that type of micro is but it also shows how it's good for such a thing to not happen in a split second. Spectators need time to appreciate what's going on. SC2 needs to do something to slow things down, or make units not die as fast as they do in battles. I'm really not sure what but something needs to be done. SC2 is the future, so I'm really putting my faith into Blizzard to do SOMETHING about this through hots and lotv. Also notice how because it took time, they were able to show bisus epic face in the midst of it.
As someone who has only experienced the SC2 scene but knows a little bit about the mythos behind the BW scene and its stars, I can't wait to see gods vs. gods.
Basically, it's just a graph to all you people under the false impression BW is actually balanced.
-Milkis
More difficult? Can't really dispute the truth of that. Relevance, possibly, but that is really the only plank one could go after. Even that'd be pretty tenuous.
Balanced? Not quite so much.
There are many things wrong with SC2. The Colossus is a "ruining esports" unit. The units are, on the whole, un-inspired and very 1a2a3a (or 1a (or a if you're Terran)), with the possible exception of the Hellion, Raven, and Queen. These last few are not points I intend to contend, just stating that there are things wrong with SC2 that are wholly not-sensationalist.
51-49 across all matchups on a variety of strategically different maps is as balanced as you are going to get. Combine that with ZERO balance patches in the last decade, many, many metagame shifts (the introduction of macro for instance) and you get the most balanced RTS game to date. That is BW.
SC2 on the other hand is 60-40 ZvP and TvP at the highest level and about 55-45 TvZ after hundreds of balance changes.
On October 29 2011 04:27 sGs.Kal_rA wrote: Do me a favor and show me an sc2 game (or even a one minute clip) that has this kind of finesse and excitement. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqsSrWZciY0
Ah I have seen this video so many times over the years, and it still amazes me. I can only imagine what these players will bring to SC2 when their play appears in proleague.
Basically, it's just a graph to all you people under the false impression BW is actually balanced.
-Milkis
More difficult? Can't really dispute the truth of that. Relevance, possibly, but that is really the only plank one could go after. Even that'd be pretty tenuous.
Balanced? Not quite so much.
There are many things wrong with SC2. The Colossus is a "ruining esports" unit. The units are, on the whole, un-inspired and very 1a2a3a (or 1a (or a if you're Terran)), with the possible exception of the Hellion, Raven, and Queen. These last few are not points I intend to contend, just stating that there are things wrong with SC2 that are wholly not-sensationalist.
Great points. However, this graph doesn't capture balance that we are familiar with in SC2.
For others who see this graph, remember that BW only had one patch. What you are looking at is not a representation of balance, but win/loss rates resulting from strategical variance. Zerg spends time dominating ZvT and Terran spends time dominating TvZ. So the players are allowed to balance the game themselves, depending upon their skill and understanding. No need for patches.
One patch and BW had this much variance. SC2 has already had... lot's of patches and about the same amount of variance.
Imagine if these BW pros switch over. Their collaborative approach to the game might give the strategic variance that SC2 needs so badly. Patches for strategical variance is a bad thing. Time devoted to develop strategies for strategical variance is a good thing.
Patches are a quick fix and it requires no effort from anyone but Blizzard's balance team to achieve strategical variance. Patches should be a last ditch effort to remove stagnation from the game.
On the other hand innovation and dedication from the players make the scene richer and more dynamic like in BW. We, the community, will "patch" the game with our intellect and effort. The rewards we reap could be numerous.
: )
BW pros switching to SC2 is my dream come true. I cannot wait to see how Flash performs.
As someone who doesn't watch BW at all I'm not able to understand why that video is so epic. And guaranteed it's because I don't know much about BW the game, and I don't know the skill involved in what Bisu is actually doing in that clip. I'm not saying the video isn't awesome, I'm saying that I personally don't understand it.
Showing that clip to people like me who watch SC2 doesn't make us say "Ohhhh, that's what makes BW awesome!". It just makes us confused.
If you want to have the intended effect of sharing how awesome BW is, then unfortunately you'll have to also include some commentary on why the clip is awesome. What should i be looking for in order to be impressed? Outside of the video content itself, what is going on with the player that would make this harder than just the video shows?
As both as bw and sc2 fan I don't mind that at all. Rather surprised by how fast things are happening right now, though. I'd have given bw another year easily, especially for Code S players, and expected only Code A players to make a move for HotS.
Edit: croupier no one has to convince you of anything. This whole "convince me" stuff is childish, either you show interest in something and actually do some work on your own (bw VoDs are easy to find on youtube and thanks to the bw powerrank you can easily find the names of the best bw players on tl) or don't ask others to do that work for you.
This is what i have been waiting for, i would prefer if they played BW but only if BW was still hugely successful and had a presence, even if just in Korea. If not i rather see them tackle a new challenge.
People dont want to admit it (why is a entirely different topic), the games are very similar, the same cannot be said for something like War 3, where you simply cannot walk into and think your BW or SC2 skillz will get you far, it is a different beast.
SC2 has, more or less captured the entire world, it is one of, if not the biggest esport game right now, it has yet to truly crack the korean market, but its slowly crawling and scraping to get there.
If and when these players switch the focus will be on BW vs SC2, not game vs game but player vs player, but in a few months that discussion will get old and people will simply see them as current SC2 players and maybe finally the community can have some peace at last.
The community as a whole would rather discuss Flash vs MVP in SC2, than SC2 vs BW, as that discussion (more or less a giant flame war) has been beaten to death, left to rot, bones shattered and the dirt where the bones rested was stamped on and kicked.
The first time Jaedong, Fantasy, Bisu or Flash play their first tv match will be a huge deal, something Kespa or GOM will surely know how to milk. (If it happens)
Why the fuck would that matter when they clearly care more about balance in Diamond and below on the ladder, than in actual tournaments?
What do you base this on? They changed maybe a few things for the lower leagues but the vast majority of the balance are based on what's happening at the pro level. Just look at the latest Protoss and ghost changes.
On October 29 2011 04:38 croupier wrote: sGs.Kal_rA ,
As someone who doesn't watch BW at all I'm not able to understand why that video is so epic. And guaranteed it's because I don't know much about BW the game, and I don't know the skill involved in what Bisu is actually doing in that clip. I'm not saying the video isn't awesome, I'm saying that I personally don't understand it.
Showing that clip to people like me who watch SC2 doesn't make us say "Ohhhh, that's what makes BW awesome!". It just makes us confused.
If you want to have the intended effect of sharing how awesome BW is, then unfortunately you'll have to also include some commentary on why the clip is awesome. What should i be looking for in order to be impressed? Outside of the video content itself, what is going on with the player that would make this harder than just the video shows?
Look at how Bisu (the protoss) targets almost every mine that Flash plants down. It might look easy, but to click with that precision considering how small the mines are and moving his dragoons back at the same time is just amazing. Almost every other protoss would have lost to that.
On October 29 2011 04:39 Tyree wrote: This is what i have been waiting for, i would prefer if they played BW but only if BW was still hugely successful and had a presence, even if just in Korea. If not i rather see them tackle a new challenge.
People dont want to admit it (why is a entirely different topic), the games are very similar, the same cannot be said for something like War 3, where you simply cannot walk into and think your BW or SC2 skillz will get you far, it is a different beast.
SC2 has, more or less captured the entire world, it is one of, if not the biggest esport game right now, it has yet to truly crack the korean market, but its slowly crawling and scraping to get there.
If and when these players switch the focus will be on BW vs SC2, not game vs game but player vs player, but in a few months that discussion will get old and people will simply see them as current SC2 players and maybe finally the community can have some peace at last.
The first time Jaedong, Fantasy, Bisu or Flash play their first tv match will be a huge deal, something Kespa or GOM will surely know how to milk. (If it happens)
On October 29 2011 04:38 croupier wrote: sGs.Kal_rA ,
As someone who doesn't watch BW at all I'm not able to understand why that video is so epic. And guaranteed it's because I don't know much about BW the game, and I don't know the skill involved in what Bisu is actually doing in that clip. I'm not saying the video isn't awesome, I'm saying that I personally don't understand it.
Showing that clip to people like me who watch SC2 doesn't make us say "Ohhhh, that's what makes BW awesome!". It just makes us confused.
If you want to have the intended effect of sharing how awesome BW is, then unfortunately you'll have to also include some commentary on why the clip is awesome. What should i be looking for in order to be impressed? Outside of the video content itself, what is going on with the player that would make this harder than just the video shows?
imagine a group of marines vs a group of lings + roaches + blings. marines = goons, roaches = tanks, lings = vultures, blings = spidermines. now imagine microing your marines in your natural's choke without getting carpal tunnel
Basically, it's just a graph to all you people under the false impression BW is actually balanced.
-Milkis
More difficult? Can't really dispute the truth of that. Relevance, possibly, but that is really the only plank one could go after. Even that'd be pretty tenuous.
Balanced? Not quite so much.
There are many things wrong with SC2. The Colossus is a "ruining esports" unit. The units are, on the whole, un-inspired and very 1a2a3a (or 1a (or a if you're Terran)), with the possible exception of the Hellion, Raven, and Queen. These last few are not points I intend to contend, just stating that there are things wrong with SC2 that are wholly not-sensationalist.
Proleague 2010-11 win rates:
Terran: 49% Zerg: 50% Protoss: 51%
On balanced maps, BW has perfect balance. A lesser Zerg will not defeat Bisu in PL anytime soon unless Bisu plays below normal standard.
Is it possible for Sc2 to be balanced like this? Possibly, Daybreak is incredibly fair and is by far the best map in the pool. But looking at 1/1/1, and reactor hellion variations, I simply cannot see true balance.
Well the last team league (closest to proleague we had) win rates were TvZ: 47.5% ZvP: 52.8% PvT: 50%
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.whitecosmos.com/sc/balance/TvZ.png)
