On October 29 2011 04:38 croupier wrote: sGs.Kal_rA ,
As someone who doesn't watch BW at all I'm not able to understand why that video is so epic. And guaranteed it's because I don't know much about BW the game, and I don't know the skill involved in what Bisu is actually doing in that clip. I'm not saying the video isn't awesome, I'm saying that I personally don't understand it.
Showing that clip to people like me who watch SC2 doesn't make us say "Ohhhh, that's what makes BW awesome!". It just makes us confused.
If you want to have the intended effect of sharing how awesome BW is, then unfortunately you'll have to also include some commentary on why the clip is awesome. What should i be looking for in order to be impressed? Outside of the video content itself, what is going on with the player that would make this harder than just the video shows?
Bisu is dancing each individual Dragoon away from the spider mines, while focus firing the mines. Think of this as marine splitting vs. banelings while also focus firing the banelings and not the zerglings. It is practically beyond comprehension the level of mouse dexterity Bisu needed to pull that off.
LOL don't forget that if those dragoons had their way they'd be moving in the exact opposite way you wanted them to, and shooting themselves instead of their targets.
stupid machines.
but yeah we have people who do that micro vs banes in SC2. only a couple of people. but yeah it IS exciting to watch.
generally in SC2 TvZ once your tanks have been destroyed, Terran has no chance at holding that position, tanks are required to keep the banelings(bad spider mines for zerg) away from your marines, while marines keep the mutalisks from killing the tanks. there have been a few games with MKP and i think it was Gumiho, who have micro'd individual marines to kill off banelings well after the tanks have been destroyed. they did it long enough to get reinforcement tanks set up to hold a position long after anyone else in the game would have had to retreat. that was the most impressive micro i've seen in SC2 to date because it took place over about a minute and a half of game time wave after wave of zerg units unable to stop marines from controlling space for that long is pretty hard to do in SC2. anyone remember that game? i'd like to watch it again >.>
On October 29 2011 04:50 Tsuki.eu wrote: stop comparing a 10year bw to a 1year old sc2, thats just retarded. just be glad the starcraft legacy will live on. support sc2 and make it as good as bw.
Browder himself admitted recently that they wont work on the unit clumping and pathing issue so.. the overall combat vibe will forever be completely different from BW.
i rather want to see them discover a new smart approach than dumbing unit's AI to achieve BW micro, it works for BW because everyone knows its an older game but it will feel rather stupid on a game that was released 2010.
One way to force less clumping is to (for one example) make tank splash/damage STRONGER (and perhaps remove smart fire). People complain that EMP is "OP" but this is mostly b/c players clump their units too closely as well. etc etc
I think you are on to something ..... Im going to take the wait and see approach ... what if X player ( probably flash) comes in and figures out to ALWAYS have his marines spread 100% of the time perfectly then maybe it will look more like Brood War .... who knows what SC2 will look like in 2 years maybe the BW people are right and SC2 just doesnt have that type of skill ceiling .... or maybe it does but no one in the world is playing correctly yet .... guess it will be interesting to see
On October 29 2011 04:50 Tsuki.eu wrote: stop comparing a 10year bw to a 1year old sc2, thats just retarded. just be glad the starcraft legacy will live on. support sc2 and make it as good as bw.
Browder himself admitted recently that they wont work on the unit clumping and pathing issue so.. the overall combat vibe will forever be completely different from BW.
i rather want to see them discover a new smart approach than dumbing unit's AI to achieve BW micro, it works for BW because everyone knows its an older game but it will feel rather stupid on a game that was released 2010.
One way to force less clumping is to (for one example) make tank splash/damage STRONGER (and perhaps remove smart fire). People complain that EMP is "OP" but this is mostly b/c players clump their units too closely as well. etc etc
Things like this are why I am truly shocked you don't see the top players using 4-5+ control groups for their army. It seems almost everyone uses two or three hotkeys at best. I see countless people doing things like 1 zealots/sentry, 2 goons, 3 colossus. Especially with the pathing being as good as it is this is obviously going to make your army ball up big time.
See, the game is so damn terrible he's lost his mind watching it too much!
On October 29 2011 04:50 Tsuki.eu wrote: stop comparing a 10year bw to a 1year old sc2, thats just retarded. just be glad the starcraft legacy will live on. support sc2 and make it as good as bw.
Browder himself admitted recently that they wont work on the unit clumping and pathing issue so.. the overall combat vibe will forever be completely different from BW.
i rather want to see them discover a new smart approach than dumbing unit's AI to achieve BW micro, it works for BW because everyone knows its an older game but it will feel rather stupid on a game that was released 2010.
One way to force less clumping is to (for one example) make tank splash/damage STRONGER (and perhaps remove smart fire). People complain that EMP is "OP" but this is mostly b/c players clump their units too closely as well. etc etc
Things like this are why I am truly shocked you don't see the top players using 4-5+ control groups for their army. It seems almost everyone uses two or three hotkeys at best. I see countless people doing things like 1 zealots/sentry, 2 goons, 3 colossus. Especially with the pathing being as good as it is this is obviously going to make your army ball up big time.
im pretty sure in 5 years or more hotkeys in sc2 will be more refined.
On October 29 2011 04:50 Tsuki.eu wrote: stop comparing a 10year bw to a 1year old sc2, thats just retarded. just be glad the starcraft legacy will live on. support sc2 and make it as good as bw.
Browder himself admitted recently that they wont work on the unit clumping and pathing issue so.. the overall combat vibe will forever be completely different from BW.
i rather want to see them discover a new smart approach than dumbing unit's AI to achieve BW micro, it works for BW because everyone knows its an older game but it will feel rather stupid on a game that was released 2010.
One way to force less clumping is to (for one example) make tank splash/damage STRONGER (and perhaps remove smart fire). People complain that EMP is "OP" but this is mostly b/c players clump their units too closely as well. etc etc
Things like this are why I am truly shocked you don't see the top players using 4-5+ control groups for their army. It seems almost everyone uses two or three hotkeys at best. I see countless people doing things like 1 zealots/sentry, 2 goons, 3 colossus. Especially with the pathing being as good as it is this is obviously going to make your army ball up big time.
This is why I think it will be very interesting to see the BW top pro's switch over. I can't see guys like Stork Bisu Flash Jaedong etc. using only 3 control groups of hot keys for units. We may very well see a natural switch from giant ball of untis to a stream line arc in battles if they do indeed fulyl switch.
On October 29 2011 04:50 Tsuki.eu wrote: stop comparing a 10year bw to a 1year old sc2, thats just retarded. just be glad the starcraft legacy will live on. support sc2 and make it as good as bw.
Browder himself admitted recently that they wont work on the unit clumping and pathing issue so.. the overall combat vibe will forever be completely different from BW.
i rather want to see them discover a new smart approach than dumbing unit's AI to achieve BW micro, it works for BW because everyone knows its an older game but it will feel rather stupid on a game that was released 2010.
One way to force less clumping is to (for one example) make tank splash/damage STRONGER (and perhaps remove smart fire). People complain that EMP is "OP" but this is mostly b/c players clump their units too closely as well. etc etc
I think you are on to something ..... Im going to take the wait and see approach ... what if X player ( probably flash) comes in and figures out to ALWAYS have his marines spread 100% of the time perfectly then maybe it will look more like Brood War .... who knows what SC2 will look like in 2 years maybe the BW people are right and SC2 just doesnt have that type of skill ceiling .... or maybe it does but no one in the world is playing correctly yet .... guess it will be interesting to see
sc2 units already kill each other fast.. with a splash buff 200/200 balls would melt insanely
On October 28 2011 18:25 Thug[ro] wrote: We all knew this day will come eventually.. It's a good thing, BW is dying so they need to keep up with the current trend
Oh wake up the old cow to go eat some hay (I know that made no sense; seriously, I'm just being random. I'm not implying you are a farmer or anything).
BW is the 3rd most popular professional sport in South Korea. It is more popular than SC2 is in the entire world, and while SC2's fanbase entirely comprises gaming nerds like ourselves, BW in Korea appeals to all types of people. That's a huge deal man. So please do not state myths like LOL BW IS DYING. It isn't. It's the biggest e-sport in the world. They are transitioning because the next iteration of the game is out, and it's inevitable that people will switch to the next iteration. It always happens (even in with CS, a lot of people went to CSS despite being the exact same game as 1.6 (except better graphics). The only reason there wasn't a 100% switch is that they're the exact same game, so there's absolutely no point to switch except to have a bit easier competition in CSS).
Gah, it grinds my gears when people say BW is dying or something, implying it isn't the world's most popular e-sport.
In other news, I had a feeling this was coming as progamers tend to move to the next iteration of a game. The current Korean SC2 players are probably sweating profusely at the realization that within a few months of the BW --> SC2 switch, they're not going to be heard from again :S.
LOL don't forget that if those dragoons had their way they'd be moving in the exact opposite way you wanted them to, and shooting themselves instead of their targets.
They're not Dragoons. They're DERPgoons. I didn't even play Protoss in BW and it was still frustrating as hell seeing my opponents' derpgoons derp like that.
On October 29 2011 02:22 L_Master wrote: This is Bisu in full swing:
For those discussing the APM vs meaningful APM such a measure was devised for broodwar called EAPM that factored out the spam. Most of the BW players that were considered fast and great multitaskers generally had between 300-400 APM, and about 200-250 EAPM depending on the game.
Needless to say, Bisu is no Vibe, and as you can see from the video Bisu is not doing very much spamming at all, it really is 80-90% meaningful clicks.
Wow thats fucking amazing. I don't think any current SC2 player can multitask that well even with the easier mechanics, less maybe MVP.
This is no rip on the SC2 guys, its just that Bisu was known for being head and shoulders above almost everyone in BW at multitasking, including many strong BW players known for being quick and solid mechanically. I haven't heard any SC2 pros being noted for having truly insane multi-task so far either.
MMA can multitask even better. In sc2 rating I've seen his apm reaching 700(680 to be precise). His last game vs boxer at anaheim was the perfect example. He was dropping at 2 or 3 places while keeping his main bio army split in two dancing with the huge amount of boxers tanks,trying to outposition him, which he did. He was also macroing meanwhile. Such a monster.
Tldr:not starting a xx vs yy war, I'm just a MMA fanboy.
I'm not here to bash MMA, I haven't watched enough of his games to know for sure how good his multi-task is. That said, to say he is better multitasking then Bisu is quite a stretch. Like what you said about MMA, the same can be said for Bisu. There have been plenty of games where he controlling his main army, separately killing OL with corsair whilst avoiding scourge, harssing an expansion with DT's, and storm dropping a drone line, all while macroing. That sounds pretty similar to what you say MMA is doing.
Watch the video there if you haven't and you'll get a feel for what Bisu is doing and can compare to what you have seen from MMA.
On October 29 2011 04:27 sGs.Kal_rA wrote: Do me a favor and show me an sc2 game (or even a one minute clip) that has this kind of finesse and excitement.
Ah I have seen this video so many times over the years, and it still amazes me. I can only imagine what these players will bring to SC2 when their play appears in proleague.
Alright, I'll try and break it down some.
Basic idea here is spider mines are like little siege projectiles. You plant them and then when something gets close they pop up, run at them, and do like 125 damage. Once its running after you it can't be escaped (unless you pick the targeted unit in a shuttle or something).
Once laid, it takes like half a second or so before they pop up and kill shit if enemy units are there, so Bisu has a very short reaction time to kill of the mines. Just one mine will bring his goons to extremely low health, and 2 will just make them pop to blue goo.
In general the goal is to walk back from the vultures, using hold position to shoot as you move back. This allows you to walk away from the laid spider mines. Terran on the other hand, is trying to run his vultures around and surround your goons with mines so you have no open place to run to and are forced to eat mines.
This running behind causes problems for the goons, they become trapped by the vultures, and due to the bad pathing it becomes extremely to difficult to run where you want to avoid mines. Additionally, once the mines start popping up, they further clutter the pathing. If you don't move your dragoon to exactly the right spaces it just gonna run around stupidly and ensure you get extra mine hits.
So in this video it's a combination of several things. Number one is that Bisu is moving his goons as best as possible so he doesn't get trapped by mines, and when vultures go behind him he must move each goon in the correct direction to avoid getting cock-blocked by the pathing. Second, there are many times he simply cannot run. He must target each individual mine. Here's the catch: if 2+ mines are laid, you don't have time to shoot and kill BOTH mines. Morever, goons tend to preferentially target units, and not mines. What Bisu is doing is individually grabbing groups of 2 goons and targeting mines (2 goon shots kill mine), all with perfect accuracy and incredibly small window of time that the mine can be killed. If you imagine the mines as like 10 Blings or something rolling at stalkers, Bisu is individually grabbing sets of 2 stalkers and killing off blings that are like 1 bling distance away from the goons. Morever, at the same time, he is individual pathing various stalkers around to prevent them getting trapped in a bad spot.
Take a look right about late :23 early :24. All of those 4 or 5 mines had to be individually targeted with smaller groups of goons AND he has to be moving his goons away from mines into better spots. Perhaps even more insane is about :48-:50 where he gets SURROUNDED by mines, and yet within a fraction of a second shoots down every mine with groups of 2 or 3 goons.
That really is a top 5 micro moment in all of StarCraft history.
On October 29 2011 04:38 croupier wrote: sGs.Kal_rA ,
As someone who doesn't watch BW at all I'm not able to understand why that video is so epic. And guaranteed it's because I don't know much about BW the game, and I don't know the skill involved in what Bisu is actually doing in that clip. I'm not saying the video isn't awesome, I'm saying that I personally don't understand it.
Showing that clip to people like me who watch SC2 doesn't make us say "Ohhhh, that's what makes BW awesome!". It just makes us confused.
If you want to have the intended effect of sharing how awesome BW is, then unfortunately you'll have to also include some commentary on why the clip is awesome. What should i be looking for in order to be impressed? Outside of the video content itself, what is going on with the player that would make this harder than just the video shows?
It's really difficult to explain if you aren't familiar with the brood war engine.
Imagine you have stalkers stutter stepping. Now if you attack then move away too fast, there is a chance your stalker just stops moving. This stalker is frozen and cannot be issued a command until you highlight the unit and click stop.
Imagine if you could blink 2 stalkers into the same location. They will "stack" and then push apart similar to how flyer units function in sc2. This stacking occurs in brood war as well except you have no control over your units while they stack and push apart. Example of this is at 23-24 seconds where the two dragoons closest to the top of the screen are bumping and bugging.
Each of those little white burrowing things called mines do 125 damage and have splash. They are really small and difficult to target as well. It's like trying to target down a burrowed zergling. There is only a little hole and not a complete unit model to target.
There is no dynamic pushing in brood war. If you've watched enough marine vs zergling in sc2, you probably have seen a terran stutter step his way out of a zergling surround. Doesn't happen in brood war. If dragoons get surrounded by vulture, your only choice is to shoot down the vultures.
So to summarize, he is stuttering nearly perfectly with dumb units that may freeze up, avoiding clumping that can cause his units to bug, targeting down burrowed zergling size death bombs, and targeting down vultures to not get surrounded. And to top that all off, he is macroing!
On October 29 2011 04:50 Tsuki.eu wrote: stop comparing a 10year bw to a 1year old sc2, thats just retarded. just be glad the starcraft legacy will live on. support sc2 and make it as good as bw.
A year and a half ago the Starcraft BroodWar scene had none of the worrying of not having an MSL or OSL, or a full Pro League.
BroodWar players and fans are threatened of losing the game we have loved for over a decade. Show some respect please.
Sure we'll show respect to bw, when bw fans start showing respect to sc2.
Respect is something that is earned and BW has above any of game earned that. You should be thankful BW had even half the success it did or you can kiss the SC2 you love good-bye and welcome in DoW: Wings of Liberty (or whatever current generation RTS game that does away with micro/macro/multitasking).
On October 29 2011 04:26 Evangelist wrote: We should respect Brood War players because they have provided epic games, but many of our current pros also came from Warcraft 3, a game that required damn near as much macro and a hundred times more micro than any iteration of Brood War.
sorry but wc3 macro <<<<<<<<<<<< bw macro. MBS and on top of that wc3 was built to have a focus on micro and not macro.
You could queue up 3 Druid of the talons at one ancient of wind and it would barely change the outcome of the game. I've watched pro wc3 replays and their macro in that game is awful, not because they are bad (wc3 players have sick macro in sc2), but because you simply didn't need good macro. Heck worker production was ceased in mid game in wc3.
Lol, I love War3 but anyone saying that its "macro" (in the sense of how it's meant in SC2) is anywhere near that of BW's or SC2's is delusional. I mean, you could expand macro to mean everything not associated with micro, but most people in this forum don't mean it that way.
There were a lot of tiny things in War3, though, that I think a lot of people who aren't familiar with the game don't get. Lots of on-the-spot, deliberate "calculation" (I can't really term it anything else) and decision-making, because every hit actually counts, and the ability to process a ton of information in the space of a second is so, so, so important. I honestly find that it takes a very specific type of person to do very well in War3. You can't just be good at RTS (though that will definitely help), but you have to see all the little things and to literally think three or more individual hits and spells ahead of time in order to gauge positioning and to be able dictate the pace of the game, to force your opponent to do what you want him to do and to get off that extra hit, and you don't do this for just one unit, but all your units, because each of them can mean the difference between winning and losing.
It's hard to describe if you've never played War3 extensively (I'm still omitting a ton of things from my description), and to most people it just looks like things hitting each other until they die, but. Eh. It's really a game of extreme, extreme, extreme timings. It's complicated and beautiful and different, which is why I want a brain study on players who play War3/BW/SC2.
Hey guys I'm late to the party, I'll just say that the foreign scene is doomed, unless they all move to Korea to participate in the korean leagues. Just forget the nasl ipl and mlg things, korea is where it's at.
Now obviously I'm very concerned about BW's future, but honestly, as long as the players are happy, then it's all good. I'll support the BW players no matter their decisions.
At the end of the day, no matter what happens next, I just want people to know how epic and legendary BW is. I'm confident that in a hundred years from now, BW will be mentionned in History books. You just can't spell ESPORTS without BW.
ps: now finally we'll see some refined simcities Hell, it's about time
I love how all the SC2 kids are like "It IS sad to see BW die, but who cares we were never involved with it anyway!" Seriously just admit you have no idea what it's like to be a fan of BW and stop trying to kiss our asses because it is painful to hear all this news of possible transitions to SC2.
IMO I don't think any top BW pros should switch: It would be almost insulting to see them play a game that's less skillful and less exciting.
For those discussing the APM vs meaningful APM such a measure was devised for broodwar called EAPM that factored out the spam. Most of the BW players that were considered fast and great multitaskers generally had between 300-400 APM, and about 200-250 EAPM depending on the game.
Needless to say, Bisu is no Vibe, and as you can see from the video Bisu is not doing very much spamming at all, it really is 80-90% meaningful clicks.
Wow thats fucking amazing. I don't think any current SC2 player can multitask that well even with the easier mechanics, less maybe MVP.
This is no rip on the SC2 guys, its just that Bisu was known for being head and shoulders above almost everyone in BW at multitasking, including many strong BW players known for being quick and solid mechanically. I haven't heard any SC2 pros being noted for having truly insane multi-task so far either.
MMA can multitask even better. In sc2 rating I've seen his apm reaching 700(680 to be precise). His last game vs boxer at anaheim was the perfect example. He was dropping at 2 or 3 places while keeping his main bio army split in two dancing with the huge amount of boxers tanks,trying to outposition him, which he did. He was also macroing meanwhile. Such a monster.
Tldr:not starting a xx vs yy war, I'm just a MMA fanboy.
I'm not here to bash MMA, I haven't watched enough of his games to know for sure how good his multi-task is. That said, to say he is better multitasking then Bisu is quite a stretch. Like what you said about MMA, the same can be said for Bisu. There have been plenty of games where he controlling his main army, separately killing OL with corsair whilst avoiding scourge, harssing an expansion with DT's, and storm dropping a drone line, all while macroing. That sounds pretty similar to what you say MMA is doing.
Watch the video there if you haven't and you'll get a feel for what Bisu is doing and can compare to what you have seen from MMA.
We can't know the fuck how REALLY well MMA multitask without a FPView anyways, so yeah we can't tell if he do it as good as Bisu (and I don't think so)
On October 29 2011 04:50 Tsuki.eu wrote: stop comparing a 10year bw to a 1year old sc2, thats just retarded. just be glad the starcraft legacy will live on. support sc2 and make it as good as bw.
A year and a half ago the Starcraft BroodWar scene had none of the worrying of not having an MSL or OSL, or a full Pro League.
BroodWar players and fans are threatened of losing the game we have loved for over a decade. Show some respect please.
Sure we'll show respect to bw, when bw fans start showing respect to sc2.
Respect is something that is earned and BW has above any of game earned that. You should be thankful BW had even half the success it did or you can kiss the SC2 you love good-bye and welcome in DoW: Wings of Liberty (or whatever current generation RTS game that does away with micro/macro/multitasking).
Respect is something that is given and lost to some people. Those people are the ones who arent on here being dicks to others like yourself. I almost think you must be joking. A game "earned" respect so people who like it can trash other games and expect it to be a one way street? Serious?
For those discussing the APM vs meaningful APM such a measure was devised for broodwar called EAPM that factored out the spam. Most of the BW players that were considered fast and great multitaskers generally had between 300-400 APM, and about 200-250 EAPM depending on the game.
Needless to say, Bisu is no Vibe, and as you can see from the video Bisu is not doing very much spamming at all, it really is 80-90% meaningful clicks.
Wow thats fucking amazing. I don't think any current SC2 player can multitask that well even with the easier mechanics, less maybe MVP.
This is no rip on the SC2 guys, its just that Bisu was known for being head and shoulders above almost everyone in BW at multitasking, including many strong BW players known for being quick and solid mechanically. I haven't heard any SC2 pros being noted for having truly insane multi-task so far either.
MMA can multitask even better. In sc2 rating I've seen his apm reaching 700(680 to be precise). His last game vs boxer at anaheim was the perfect example. He was dropping at 2 or 3 places while keeping his main bio army split in two dancing with the huge amount of boxers tanks,trying to outposition him, which he did. He was also macroing meanwhile. Such a monster.
Tldr:not starting a xx vs yy war, I'm just a MMA fanboy.
I'm not here to bash MMA, I haven't watched enough of his games to know for sure how good his multi-task is. That said, to say he is better multitasking then Bisu is quite a stretch. Like what you said about MMA, the same can be said for Bisu. There have been plenty of games where he controlling his main army, separately killing OL with corsair whilst avoiding scourge, harssing an expansion with DT's, and storm dropping a drone line, all while macroing. That sounds pretty similar to what you say MMA is doing.
Watch the video there if you haven't and you'll get a feel for what Bisu is doing and can compare to what you have seen from MMA.
We can't know the fuck how REALLY well MMA multitask without a FPView anyways, so yeah we can't tell if he do it as good as Bisu (and I don't think so)
The fact that MMA switched proves he's not as good as Bisu.
On October 29 2011 05:15 Canadium wrote: I love how all the SC2 kids are like "It IS sad to see BW die, but who cares we were never involved with it anyway!" Seriously just admit you have no idea what it's like to be a fan of BW and stop trying to kiss our asses because it is painful to hear all this news of possible transitions to SC2.
IMO I don't think any top BW pros should switch: It would be almost insulting to see them play a game that's less skillful and less exciting.
So please stop with your fake sensitivity.
Or you could act less butthurt and accept that they truly do feel that way.
EPT
so they need to keep up with the current trend
