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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
On October 29 2011 00:31 Merlimoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 00:30 Megaliskuu wrote:On October 29 2011 00:29 Merlimoo wrote:On October 29 2011 00:10 Zaurus wrote:On October 29 2011 00:08 rasers wrote:On October 29 2011 00:01 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
I cant wait for the BW pros to switch over so they can get man handled. It doesnt take too much talent to be the top player at a game that only a handful of players play. SC2 increased the player count many times over. It's funny to see all these BW fanboys speaking hypothetical about their heroes dominating the SC2, but you damn well know in their hearts they're hoping they don't switch because then if players like FlaSh, Jaedong, Bisu switch and become good, but don't reach the mind boggling heights of their BW glory, it just proves that they're not RTS gods, just exceptional BW players that were able to excel in a mechanically difficult game -- remember this is a strategy game, it shouldn't take 400 APM to execute a strategy. Also BW became a very niche thing over the years, like curling. wow. can u write even more bullshit?? what the! if you have 400 APM and you are still on PAR with a guy with 100 APM, then the game is screwed. It will be like any ordinary crap RTS games in which practising more has no effect. Go play Spam Click v3 then. 400 APM were needed because the game was stupidly user unfriendly. It is not anymore, allowing more people without nerdy skills and time to express their strategical abilities. In a strategy game, that is what is important. But its real time so you should also be fast as shit. A pro with 400 APM should never lose to someone with 100 APM, thats just bad game design. Who said a rts should be like that ? BW is that way, that is all. EDIT : anyway. Its just that is not the time for SC2 to distinguish players with APM. They have a toon more things to do on the strategy level right now.
The idea is that there sbould be no skill ceiling in an rts for it to be perfect. For sc2 to have no skill ceiling, apm should matter as it can directly correlate to skill. A 400apm player being on par with an 100 apm goes to show that sc2 has a ceiling. With a ceiling, the game becomes redundant.
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On October 29 2011 00:34 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 00:31 Merlimoo wrote:On October 29 2011 00:30 Megaliskuu wrote:On October 29 2011 00:29 Merlimoo wrote:On October 29 2011 00:10 Zaurus wrote:On October 29 2011 00:08 rasers wrote:On October 29 2011 00:01 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
I cant wait for the BW pros to switch over so they can get man handled. It doesnt take too much talent to be the top player at a game that only a handful of players play. SC2 increased the player count many times over. It's funny to see all these BW fanboys speaking hypothetical about their heroes dominating the SC2, but you damn well know in their hearts they're hoping they don't switch because then if players like FlaSh, Jaedong, Bisu switch and become good, but don't reach the mind boggling heights of their BW glory, it just proves that they're not RTS gods, just exceptional BW players that were able to excel in a mechanically difficult game -- remember this is a strategy game, it shouldn't take 400 APM to execute a strategy. Also BW became a very niche thing over the years, like curling. wow. can u write even more bullshit?? what the! if you have 400 APM and you are still on PAR with a guy with 100 APM, then the game is screwed. It will be like any ordinary crap RTS games in which practising more has no effect. Go play Spam Click v3 then. 400 APM were needed because the game was stupidly user unfriendly. It is not anymore, allowing more people without nerdy skills and time to express their strategical abilities. In a strategy game, that is what is important. But its real time so you should also be fast as shit. A pro with 400 APM should never lose to someone with 100 APM, thats just bad game design. Who said a rts should be like that ? BW is that way, that is all. EDIT : anyway. Its just that is not the time for SC2 to distinguish players with APM. They have a toon more things to do on the strategy level right now. LOOOOOL BY THE TIME I POST THIS THERE WILL BE LIKE 5 NINJAS BUT LOOOOOL .... U MISSED THE PART WHERE RTS STANDS FOR REAL TIME STRATEGY LOOOL
Yeah that pretty much ends the thread right there.
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On October 29 2011 00:35 Merlimoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 00:31 JinDesu wrote:On October 29 2011 00:29 Merlimoo wrote:On October 29 2011 00:10 Zaurus wrote:On October 29 2011 00:08 rasers wrote:On October 29 2011 00:01 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
I cant wait for the BW pros to switch over so they can get man handled. It doesnt take too much talent to be the top player at a game that only a handful of players play. SC2 increased the player count many times over. It's funny to see all these BW fanboys speaking hypothetical about their heroes dominating the SC2, but you damn well know in their hearts they're hoping they don't switch because then if players like FlaSh, Jaedong, Bisu switch and become good, but don't reach the mind boggling heights of their BW glory, it just proves that they're not RTS gods, just exceptional BW players that were able to excel in a mechanically difficult game -- remember this is a strategy game, it shouldn't take 400 APM to execute a strategy. Also BW became a very niche thing over the years, like curling. wow. can u write even more bullshit?? what the! if you have 400 APM and you are still on PAR with a guy with 100 APM, then the game is screwed. It will be like any ordinary crap RTS games in which practising more has no effect. Go play Spam Click v3 then. 400 APM were needed because the game was stupidly user unfriendly. It is not anymore, allowing more people without nerdy skills and time to express their strategical abilities. In a strategy game, that is what is important. When watching pro-games and seeing them hit 200-300APM and STILL not doing everything that's needed in SC2, then that goes to show you are still wrong. APM is needed. APM means, I can click fast. I does not mean I can click where it matters all the time. Click fast can be achieve by any monkey, clicking where is matters have to though. Their is still ways to improve in this domain. Look at EAPM. Their removed the spam, they fall to 60-100, maybe 200 in fights. So the standard 400 APM in BW, means 60 useful actions in reality. Hugh? What? 
with every post, you show how little you know.
the top bw pros make meaningful clicks, they can multi task like monsters with multi pronged battles on the map while macroing and managing their bases.
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The time is near.. Soon, all the fans will bow down to the BW titans.
On October 28 2011 23:51 ToguRo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 23:29 Merlimoo wrote:
I am an esport fan since its beginning, I'm not that young anymore...
I was originally into the Counter Strike scene, but after a big break (studies), where I've tried BW, W3, COD, I've finally stopped on SC2.
Iy is really my first attempt to really play an RTS game. Having improved a lot in the past months, I think I can understand everything that is going on in this game now. After having fed on day9 daylies, I just watch some old ones featuring BW. And omg...
With everything that I've heard about BW and its advantages, it is really painful for me to watch a BW game. Not for the graphics (I play Minecraft for god sake), but for everything else. Everything seems so frigide and poor. I don't really recognized the core philosophy of each race, that I've learn form sc2 obviously. Really not for me watching.
If I try to recall how it was to play BW when I tried, it was like trying the play chess with mitten!! There so much things that come into your way when you want to apply a strategy. That is a bit of weird for a rts game. Not fun to play either... I prefer spending my extra apm trying to do better stuff than overcoming a poor AI, pathfinding, and UI, like w3 micro where your brain is actually usefull. I think that if the game were revamped with a better UI, it will just become pointless... From what I've heard, every BWfanboy is just sad for the lack of neediness of "gosu/nerdy" spam clicks to produce a marine and make him move...
So please. Have a though for theses guys who really does not care a single second about BW and are happy with SC2. If you don't like it, we don't care, stay on BW, we have lived without you until now anyway. Quit, boycott blizzard for whatever reason you believe is right. Just stop annoying us. Try to evolve or die like dinausors...
That being said, I would be more that happy to see the BW scene finally try to fit into our sc2 community. If theses BW stars are that good on a strategic level, I'm looking forward to it.
But from what I can see, if you take the superstar boxer, even if he's probably not a the same level as he was, he should still have the mind the come up with great strategies. From what I can see, he's just a cheeser who try to win with his micro in sc2. Was it the reason why he was so good in BW ? If it is so, it is definitely not my kind of strategy game. I didn't play BW but when I watch it I think.... is ... how do people that played BW have fun playing SC2 .... BW just looks more fun
One does not play BW, one trains BW. It's way too intense to enjoy it in the moment, however, the amount of satisfaction you get from a win in BW is unparalleled. SC2 is a bit more fun to play but there's little satisfaction from a win. Additionally, BW is leaps and bounds more fun to watch as a spectator, which may be why you said BW looks more fun ^^.
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On October 28 2011 22:16 Pelopidas wrote:
This is outrageous. I can't believe that Blizzard can just slap a Starcraft sticker on Command and Conquer 5 and destroy the naturally developed Korean Brood War scene by throwing money. I hope every player, caster and tournament organizer feels ashamed of pretending that SC2 is the true successor of Broodwar in order to make money and gain popularity. If this goes through I will never by another Blizzard product ever again.
This is just too horrible to imagine. Blizzard fucking balances the game for noobs, and terrible players. Can you imagine what would have happened to Brood War if Protoss had been balanced for D level? Blizzard makes incredibly shitty maps so that players can "rush," yet ignores the fact that you can be aggressive on big maps also.
It's like every design decision has been made to dumb the game down so that its popular among casuals. You want to use a shuttle + Reaver, too fucking bad you have a colossus now, its pretty much the same thing. You want to micro carriers, tough shit, the interceptors will now come back, also the goliath can now fly over terrain. You don't like to take more than three bases, cool Browder doesn't like to either, we've changed worker gather rates and added an extra geyser so that taking four or more bases is pointless. You are having problems with seige tanks, no don't use drops or positioning, just make marauders or immortals lol. They have also removed losses from the profiles of noobs, now Joe reddit gold league can feel like a gosu, because that's what makes game good.
I can't believe that every WoW fanboy, Redditor and youtube caster watching noob is getting their way. Oh well, at least I'll have the last laugh when the SC2 foreign scene dies. This has probably damned the Korean scene to a new coke like fiasco as well.
sad but mostly true, concerning the game itself
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On October 29 2011 00:30 Megaliskuu wrote:Well this is fucking sad, I'm gonna have to watch my favorite bw players players play sc2. Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 00:29 Merlimoo wrote:On October 29 2011 00:10 Zaurus wrote:On October 29 2011 00:08 rasers wrote:On October 29 2011 00:01 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
I cant wait for the BW pros to switch over so they can get man handled. It doesnt take too much talent to be the top player at a game that only a handful of players play. SC2 increased the player count many times over. It's funny to see all these BW fanboys speaking hypothetical about their heroes dominating the SC2, but you damn well know in their hearts they're hoping they don't switch because then if players like FlaSh, Jaedong, Bisu switch and become good, but don't reach the mind boggling heights of their BW glory, it just proves that they're not RTS gods, just exceptional BW players that were able to excel in a mechanically difficult game -- remember this is a strategy game, it shouldn't take 400 APM to execute a strategy. Also BW became a very niche thing over the years, like curling. wow. can u write even more bullshit?? what the! if you have 400 APM and you are still on PAR with a guy with 100 APM, then the game is screwed. It will be like any ordinary crap RTS games in which practising more has no effect. Go play Spam Click v3 then. 400 APM were needed because the game was stupidly user unfriendly. It is not anymore, allowing more people without nerdy skills and time to express their strategical abilities. In a strategy game, that is what is important. But its real time so you should also be fast as shit. A pro with 400 APM should never lose to someone with 100 APM, thats just bad game design.
If 50% of your APM is useless and 50% is actually going towards something strategy related then sure your will lose to a guy who executes a strategy cleanly and counters the guy with 400 APM. A strategy will beat another strategy, no matter how fast you are, but of course you need to be somewhat fast as well.
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On October 29 2011 00:27 Merlimoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 00:22 setzer wrote:On October 29 2011 00:17 Merlimoo wrote:On October 29 2011 00:16 setzer wrote:On October 29 2011 00:16 Merlimoo wrote:On October 29 2011 00:14 setzer wrote:On October 29 2011 00:01 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
I cant wait for the BW pros to switch over so they can get man handled. It doesnt take too much talent to be the top player at a game that only a handful of players play. SC2 increased the player count many times over. It's funny to see all these BW fanboys speaking hypothetical about their heroes dominating the SC2, but you damn well know in their hearts they're hoping they don't switch because then if players like FlaSh, Jaedong, Bisu switch and become good, but don't reach the mind boggling heights of their BW glory, it just proves that they're not RTS gods, just exceptional BW players that were able to excel in a mechanically difficult game -- remember this is a strategy game, it shouldn't take 400 APM to execute a strategy. Also BW became a very niche thing over the years, like curling. Do you realize the current top players in the world are all former BW pros? None of them were every as skilled or dedicated as the current best in BW and isn't going to change if the players you mentioned switch in the prime of their career. If you are going to continue posting at least put more thought into what you are saying. You mean like Huk and Stephano who are the ones that win theses days... ?!? I'm talking about Korea So a small community like a he was talking about... Uh, what? How many current foreign SC2 progamers can compete in GSL? 3-5? That is with the lower-talented field of players than in BW. His post doesn't make any sense and neither do you. It has been established as fact that the most talented and hardest working RTS players are Korean BECAUSE of the BW proscene that has cultivated those players. Imagine the same argument being applied to US basketball and you will see how silly it is. Why do you take a Korean tournament as a reference ? Even more a tournament with no consistency, where code S because code B and come back in a minute. Anyway foreigners that can compete there... hummm "Can" because of skill, or opportunities ? Or are able to live so far away to do so ? How many korean take jet lag as excuses for their lose in foreign tournaments where they came all cocky at the beginning. Korean were the best, because they played a lot because they were the only ones paid to do so. It is not the case anymore. The end of it. Korean or not korean, human being have to same capacity, its just a matter of environment. It is evolving, and it is a good news! A tournament were you could always predict the winner, is a bad tournament.
The opportunities outside of Korea are still nowhere the same as inside Korea. Every current top player will tell you RIGHT NOW the best place to get training is Korea. You can ask Idra, Huk, Naniwa, Stephano, doesn't matter. Everyone agrees that 1) the Koreans are, as a whole, better than the foreigners and 2) there are WAY more top Koreans than top foreigners. The game changed but the structure hasn't. Why do you think foreign teams are signing partnerships with Korean teams? It is to provide their players with equal training opportunities of the Koreans while capitalizing on the success of current top Korean SC2 players.
If this change happens and BW teams switch to practicing SC2 imagine Korean training on steroids. BW teams have the best facilities, the best coaches, the best opportunities, the most talented players, AND they spend more time every day practicing than anyone else in the world. That same structure will carry over to SC2 if KeSPA is indeed involved. It will take time but it is crazy to think that the these players aren't going to do well, especially the top players like Flash, Bisu, Jaedong.
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On October 29 2011 00:35 Merlimoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 00:31 JinDesu wrote:On October 29 2011 00:29 Merlimoo wrote:On October 29 2011 00:10 Zaurus wrote:On October 29 2011 00:08 rasers wrote:On October 29 2011 00:01 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
I cant wait for the BW pros to switch over so they can get man handled. It doesnt take too much talent to be the top player at a game that only a handful of players play. SC2 increased the player count many times over. It's funny to see all these BW fanboys speaking hypothetical about their heroes dominating the SC2, but you damn well know in their hearts they're hoping they don't switch because then if players like FlaSh, Jaedong, Bisu switch and become good, but don't reach the mind boggling heights of their BW glory, it just proves that they're not RTS gods, just exceptional BW players that were able to excel in a mechanically difficult game -- remember this is a strategy game, it shouldn't take 400 APM to execute a strategy. Also BW became a very niche thing over the years, like curling. wow. can u write even more bullshit?? what the! if you have 400 APM and you are still on PAR with a guy with 100 APM, then the game is screwed. It will be like any ordinary crap RTS games in which practising more has no effect. Go play Spam Click v3 then. 400 APM were needed because the game was stupidly user unfriendly. It is not anymore, allowing more people without nerdy skills and time to express their strategical abilities. In a strategy game, that is what is important. When watching pro-games and seeing them hit 200-300APM and STILL not doing everything that's needed in SC2, then that goes to show you are still wrong. APM is needed. APM means, I can click fast. I does not mean I can click where it matters all the time. Click fast can be achieve by any monkey, clicking where is matters have to though. Their is still ways to improve in this domain. Look at EAPM. Their removed the spam, they fall to 60-100, maybe 200 in fights. So the standard 400 APM in BW, means 60 useful actions in reality. Hugh? What?
That's just wrong. Most bw progamers have an APM between 300-400 and their effective apm is around 180-270.
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On October 29 2011 00:38 amazingxkcd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 00:31 Merlimoo wrote:On October 29 2011 00:30 Megaliskuu wrote:On October 29 2011 00:29 Merlimoo wrote:On October 29 2011 00:10 Zaurus wrote:On October 29 2011 00:08 rasers wrote:On October 29 2011 00:01 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
I cant wait for the BW pros to switch over so they can get man handled. It doesnt take too much talent to be the top player at a game that only a handful of players play. SC2 increased the player count many times over. It's funny to see all these BW fanboys speaking hypothetical about their heroes dominating the SC2, but you damn well know in their hearts they're hoping they don't switch because then if players like FlaSh, Jaedong, Bisu switch and become good, but don't reach the mind boggling heights of their BW glory, it just proves that they're not RTS gods, just exceptional BW players that were able to excel in a mechanically difficult game -- remember this is a strategy game, it shouldn't take 400 APM to execute a strategy. Also BW became a very niche thing over the years, like curling. wow. can u write even more bullshit?? what the! if you have 400 APM and you are still on PAR with a guy with 100 APM, then the game is screwed. It will be like any ordinary crap RTS games in which practising more has no effect. Go play Spam Click v3 then. 400 APM were needed because the game was stupidly user unfriendly. It is not anymore, allowing more people without nerdy skills and time to express their strategical abilities. In a strategy game, that is what is important. But its real time so you should also be fast as shit. A pro with 400 APM should never lose to someone with 100 APM, thats just bad game design. Who said a rts should be like that ? BW is that way, that is all. EDIT : anyway. Its just that is not the time for SC2 to distinguish players with APM. They have a toon more things to do on the strategy level right now. The idea is that there sbould be no skill ceiling in an rts for it to be perfect. For sc2 to have no skill ceiling, apm should matter as it can directly correlate to skill. A 400apm player being on par with an 100 apm goes to show that sc2 has a ceiling. With a ceiling, the game becomes redundant.
Except you have to consider who is this 400APM player. No offense to Vibe, but his 400APM is not comparable to MC/MMA's 400APM.
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On October 29 2011 00:10 Zaurus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 00:08 rasers wrote:On October 29 2011 00:01 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
I cant wait for the BW pros to switch over so they can get man handled. It doesnt take too much talent to be the top player at a game that only a handful of players play. SC2 increased the player count many times over. It's funny to see all these BW fanboys speaking hypothetical about their heroes dominating the SC2, but you damn well know in their hearts they're hoping they don't switch because then if players like FlaSh, Jaedong, Bisu switch and become good, but don't reach the mind boggling heights of their BW glory, it just proves that they're not RTS gods, just exceptional BW players that were able to excel in a mechanically difficult game -- remember this is a strategy game, it shouldn't take 400 APM to execute a strategy. Also BW became a very niche thing over the years, like curling. wow. can u write even more bullshit?? what the! if you have 400 APM and you are still on PAR with a guy with 100 APM, then the game is screwed. It will be like any ordinary crap RTS games in which practising more has no effect.
So if I have 6 pack muscle and I can only archive the same math score as a 15 year old kid, that means math is screwed? I'm sorry but it doesn't work that way. You develop your ability according to the field you engage in. It's stupid if you aim for being good at math but only buff up your muscle, and stuff, or it's stupid if you aim to be good at weight lifting, but all you do is sit around and read books, unless thought are heavy heavy books.
Flash is good in his field, but his strong ability isn't relevant in the other field. He will be good in other field if he practice and get use to it, that's all. The thing that will help him archive glory faster than most sc2 players right now is his youth, competitive mindset, discipline, star sense, and responsibilty as a champion... So, yes, he will dominate the scene if he put his best effort into it, because he's capable, but it's just not a walk in the park.
Or I don't know, he can be a secretary, his 400 apm might be very appreciated in that field.
I'm not trying to downtalk your "gods", but you have to know that even if Zeus pick up the keyboard and play sc2, he will not dominate the game right away.
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United States22154 Posts
On October 29 2011 00:36 Merlimoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 00:34 GMarshal wrote:On October 29 2011 00:29 Merlimoo wrote:On October 29 2011 00:10 Zaurus wrote:On October 29 2011 00:08 rasers wrote:On October 29 2011 00:01 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
I cant wait for the BW pros to switch over so they can get man handled. It doesnt take too much talent to be the top player at a game that only a handful of players play. SC2 increased the player count many times over. It's funny to see all these BW fanboys speaking hypothetical about their heroes dominating the SC2, but you damn well know in their hearts they're hoping they don't switch because then if players like FlaSh, Jaedong, Bisu switch and become good, but don't reach the mind boggling heights of their BW glory, it just proves that they're not RTS gods, just exceptional BW players that were able to excel in a mechanically difficult game -- remember this is a strategy game, it shouldn't take 400 APM to execute a strategy. Also BW became a very niche thing over the years, like curling. wow. can u write even more bullshit?? what the! if you have 400 APM and you are still on PAR with a guy with 100 APM, then the game is screwed. It will be like any ordinary crap RTS games in which practising more has no effect. Go play Spam Click v3 then. 400 APM were needed because the game was stupidly user unfriendly. It is not anymore, allowing more people without nerdy skills and time to express their strategical abilities. In a strategy game, that is what is important. You are right, people who only play 2-3 hours a day should have the same results as people who play 12-14, that shows that the game is properly built and fit to be considered a "sport". Mechanics should be as important as strategy, hence the "Real Time" aspect of RTS, you know, were APM is basically a resource you have to allocate to win? If you don't think APM should matter I'm not sure starcraft is the game for you. Consider this, should a brilliant strategic genius with 20 APM, beat a "mediocre" strategist who has 200 APM? I think the answer is obviously not, half the game is coming up with the strategy, the other half is executing it. Would things like MKP mass hellion build in MLG be exciting if it didn't require effort to execute and defend? Of course not, without requiring mechanics the game becomes a glorified TBS. Their is difference between 20, 200 (that is hard to reach and can't be all meaningful) and stupid 400.
Why can't it all be meaningful? Look at a macro game in BW, where there are 12 rax and 6 factories all over the map and each one needs to be individually selected to make an unit, or when Boxer (i think it was boxer) locked down 10+ bcs with ghosts, which he had to individually select and give each command to, while I can agree that there is a diminishing return situation, if you can be slightly faster or more efficient than your opponent in an RTS it should always provide some kind of advantage, always, since that rewards practice and talent. If the game ever reached a point where someone who moved twice as fast as his opponent got no advantage out of it the game would not be a real RTS.
I'm not saying higher APM = victory, but it should be (and is as far as I know) an integral part of any serious RTS.
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On October 29 2011 00:37 Megaliskuu wrote:
Sad thing about S-Class players switching is that due to the nature of sc2, they will get beat by foreigners and baddies that would have never touched them in BW.
And people will think that the people beating them are "good". S-Class BW players deserve better.
I disagree. This might be true for Zerg's who will get all-inned from time to time, but I don't think a player like Flash would ever lose a game to anyone but the other top koreans. I can't see him ever losing with his defensive style with PF's, mules and other stuff.
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On October 29 2011 00:40 setzer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 00:27 Merlimoo wrote:On October 29 2011 00:22 setzer wrote:On October 29 2011 00:17 Merlimoo wrote:On October 29 2011 00:16 setzer wrote:On October 29 2011 00:16 Merlimoo wrote:On October 29 2011 00:14 setzer wrote:On October 29 2011 00:01 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
I cant wait for the BW pros to switch over so they can get man handled. It doesnt take too much talent to be the top player at a game that only a handful of players play. SC2 increased the player count many times over. It's funny to see all these BW fanboys speaking hypothetical about their heroes dominating the SC2, but you damn well know in their hearts they're hoping they don't switch because then if players like FlaSh, Jaedong, Bisu switch and become good, but don't reach the mind boggling heights of their BW glory, it just proves that they're not RTS gods, just exceptional BW players that were able to excel in a mechanically difficult game -- remember this is a strategy game, it shouldn't take 400 APM to execute a strategy. Also BW became a very niche thing over the years, like curling. Do you realize the current top players in the world are all former BW pros? None of them were every as skilled or dedicated as the current best in BW and isn't going to change if the players you mentioned switch in the prime of their career. If you are going to continue posting at least put more thought into what you are saying. You mean like Huk and Stephano who are the ones that win theses days... ?!? I'm talking about Korea So a small community like a he was talking about... Uh, what? How many current foreign SC2 progamers can compete in GSL? 3-5? That is with the lower-talented field of players than in BW. His post doesn't make any sense and neither do you. It has been established as fact that the most talented and hardest working RTS players are Korean BECAUSE of the BW proscene that has cultivated those players. Imagine the same argument being applied to US basketball and you will see how silly it is. Why do you take a Korean tournament as a reference ? Even more a tournament with no consistency, where code S because code B and come back in a minute. Anyway foreigners that can compete there... hummm "Can" because of skill, or opportunities ? Or are able to live so far away to do so ? How many korean take jet lag as excuses for their lose in foreign tournaments where they came all cocky at the beginning. Korean were the best, because they played a lot because they were the only ones paid to do so. It is not the case anymore. The end of it. Korean or not korean, human being have to same capacity, its just a matter of environment. It is evolving, and it is a good news! A tournament were you could always predict the winner, is a bad tournament. The opportunities outside of Korea are still nowhere the same as inside Korea. Every current top player will tell you RIGHT NOW the best place to get training is Korea. You can ask Idra, Huk, Naniwa, Stephano, doesn't matter. Everyone agrees that 1) the Koreans are, as a whole, better than the foreigners and 2) there are WAY more top Koreans than top foreigners. The game changed but the structure hasn't. Why do you think foreign teams are signing partnerships with Korean teams? It is to provide their players with equal training opportunities of the Koreans while capitalizing on the success of current top Korean SC2 players. If this change happens and BW teams switch to practicing SC2 imagine Korean training on steroids. BW teams have the best facilities, the best coaches, the best opportunities, the most talented players, AND they spend more time every day practicing than anyone else in the world. That same structure will carry over to SC2 if KeSPA is indeed involved. It will take time but it is crazy to think that the these players aren't going to do well, especially the top players like Flash, Bisu, Jaedong.
Idra himself said in an interview recently during one of the MLGs this year, that foreigners on a whole are way behind Koreans and especially americans.
This guy thinks foreigners caught up as a whole now because STephano and huk has won some tournaments this month
This effectively in his mind wipes out the korean dominance hahaha
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On October 29 2011 00:42 grudgeStar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 00:37 Megaliskuu wrote:
Sad thing about S-Class players switching is that due to the nature of sc2, they will get beat by foreigners and baddies that would have never touched them in BW.
And people will think that the people beating them are "good". S-Class BW players deserve better. I disagree. This might be true for Zerg's who will get all-inned from time to time, but I don't think a player like Flash would ever lose a game to anyone but the other top koreans. I can't see him ever losing with his defensive style with PF's, mules and other stuff.
It's like 10 Goodys, playing as one person.
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On October 29 2011 00:38 amazingxkcd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 00:31 Merlimoo wrote:On October 29 2011 00:30 Megaliskuu wrote:On October 29 2011 00:29 Merlimoo wrote:On October 29 2011 00:10 Zaurus wrote:On October 29 2011 00:08 rasers wrote:On October 29 2011 00:01 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
I cant wait for the BW pros to switch over so they can get man handled. It doesnt take too much talent to be the top player at a game that only a handful of players play. SC2 increased the player count many times over. It's funny to see all these BW fanboys speaking hypothetical about their heroes dominating the SC2, but you damn well know in their hearts they're hoping they don't switch because then if players like FlaSh, Jaedong, Bisu switch and become good, but don't reach the mind boggling heights of their BW glory, it just proves that they're not RTS gods, just exceptional BW players that were able to excel in a mechanically difficult game -- remember this is a strategy game, it shouldn't take 400 APM to execute a strategy. Also BW became a very niche thing over the years, like curling. wow. can u write even more bullshit?? what the! if you have 400 APM and you are still on PAR with a guy with 100 APM, then the game is screwed. It will be like any ordinary crap RTS games in which practising more has no effect. Go play Spam Click v3 then. 400 APM were needed because the game was stupidly user unfriendly. It is not anymore, allowing more people without nerdy skills and time to express their strategical abilities. In a strategy game, that is what is important. But its real time so you should also be fast as shit. A pro with 400 APM should never lose to someone with 100 APM, thats just bad game design. Who said a rts should be like that ? BW is that way, that is all. EDIT : anyway. Its just that is not the time for SC2 to distinguish players with APM. They have a toon more things to do on the strategy level right now. The idea is that there sbould be no skill ceiling in an rts for it to be perfect. For sc2 to have no skill ceiling, apm should matter as it can directly correlate to skill. A 400apm player being on par with an 100 apm goes to show that sc2 has a ceiling. With a ceiling, the game becomes redundant.
but 100 apm players dont beat players with high apm...besides, there are more than apm which decides whether someone is "on par" with another.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49496 Posts
On October 29 2011 00:09 BLinD-RawR wrote:I had a question I'd like to ask to those people who are like OMG so X is SWITCHING? Poll: Whats your attachment to these players?I've been following them for some time now. (34) 54% I heard they were good (29) 46% 63 total votes Your vote: Whats your attachment to these players? (Vote): I heard they were good
(Vote): I've been following them for some time now.
note:following them means actual watching of VODs,reading interviews ect. not just reading their liquipedia page right after you read their name.
quoting this in case someone misses it,I really want to have a nice sit down with the SC2 fans and show them why these guys are so awesome.
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Calgary25963 Posts
This thread is a mess. I'm locking it for 30 minutes so everyone can read this:
SC2 Players: Consider that there are people who still love the BW community and feel like their game and community are preemptively being killed. Everybody who played BW and SC2 at a high level know that, in their current form, BW is a more difficult and more balanced game. It's an exciting time for SC2, but be respectful to the BW community.
BW Players: Consider that there's a large community of new players that are just excited. They aren't necessarily being disrespectful, they are just excited for the possibilities coming to the game they love. Don't assume they are knowledgable about your community and your love and are purposefully and spitefully attacking it.
Thanks. Be back in 30.
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Thats it, Blizzard just got all the "esports" scene hostage of their horrible decisions.
I hope SC2 changes its tendecies to something less casual/noob-friendly/uncompetitive/babysitting than it is rightnow, otherwise they might have just killed eSports of quality.
Imagine TBLS switching over to Terran. There would be only terran players playing SC2, quite a indicative of its current state, isnt it?
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Calgary25963 Posts
Please be respectful. Thanks
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On October 29 2011 00:29 Merlimoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 00:10 Zaurus wrote:On October 29 2011 00:08 rasers wrote:On October 29 2011 00:01 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
I cant wait for the BW pros to switch over so they can get man handled. It doesnt take too much talent to be the top player at a game that only a handful of players play. SC2 increased the player count many times over. It's funny to see all these BW fanboys speaking hypothetical about their heroes dominating the SC2, but you damn well know in their hearts they're hoping they don't switch because then if players like FlaSh, Jaedong, Bisu switch and become good, but don't reach the mind boggling heights of their BW glory, it just proves that they're not RTS gods, just exceptional BW players that were able to excel in a mechanically difficult game -- remember this is a strategy game, it shouldn't take 400 APM to execute a strategy. Also BW became a very niche thing over the years, like curling. wow. can u write even more bullshit?? what the! if you have 400 APM and you are still on PAR with a guy with 100 APM, then the game is screwed. It will be like any ordinary crap RTS games in which practising more has no effect. Go play Spam Click v3 then. 400 APM were needed because the game was stupidly user unfriendly. It is not anymore, allowing more people without nerdy skills and time to express their strategical abilities. In a strategy game, that is what is important.
Mechanical and technical skill is an aspect that is becoming increasingly dismissed as unimportant by SC2 fans. I think this is the wrong way to think about it if you are actually serious about SC2 becoming a fully-fledged sport. Football (not handegg) is very much a strategical contest between coaches, and yet the technique and mechanical skill of the players is what is actually visible on the TV. It is technical and mechanical skill that is actually exciting to the audience. Perhaps 5% of the SC2 viewing audience may have nerdgasms at Artosis' analysis of the beautiful strategy being deployed, but you can bet the other 95% will fall asleep if the mechanical skill required to pull it off is so minimal that the average viewer could do it with enough practice.
People need to understand that mechanical skill is EXACTLY what makes a game interesting. You may think BW being mechanically demanding detracts from it being a strategy game, but the mechanical difficulty of the game is precisely what makes it a good esport, and arguably a better esport than SC2.
By mechanics, I mean macro, micro and multi-tasking. The step away from macro that SC2 has taken has not corresponded to an increase in emphasis on micro. The fact that there are more viable spellcasters in the game does not increase the micro required. Indeed, Bisu has notoriously bad Carrier control and prefers Arbiters because, according to him, you can click on stasis and/or recall and you've gotten the use out of the Arbiter (or other spellcaster unit like the Defiler or Science Vessel). On the other hand, to increase the efficiency of non-spellcaster combat units, you must babysit them and that consumers a lot of your mechanical actions and focus.
What is most disappointing about the state of SC2 progaming today is the lack of multi-tasking employed by the current top players, because with the easier macro AND micro, one would expect some godly multi-tasking at the least. Sadly, this isn't the case, and even if the multi-tasking of top players has improved dramatically over the last 6 months, they are still far worse than the multi-tasking of the top players in BW, and BW is a game with far, far, faaaar more demanding mechanical needs.
TLDR: Mechanical difficulty is needed in esports. Dismissing it as adding no value to the strategical aspect of the game is an insular view that does not consider the viewing audience. SC2 requires far less mechanical skill than BW, with multi-tasking being the only aspect of mechanical skill able to truly "wow" an audience compared to BW. Despite this, current top SC2 players demonstrate weaker multi-tasking than top BW players. Therefore, BW players would re-energise SC2 as an esport, but I am not sure whether SC2 has what it takes to be a more entertaining esport than BW, ever.
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