On October 29 2011 00:22 Hassybaby wrote: IF Flash switches, I hope he plays Protoss. I'd rather a progamer pick a race because he wants to enjoy it instead of purely an economic decision
Even then he wouldn't pick P lol
Nvm, apparently it was Bisu who possibly said he'd play Toss for fun and Terran for money
Exactly what I said, but switch Flash for Bisu
Though I wanna see Flash as Toss as well
I could swear in Bisu's interview thread, he said he'd stay with Toss all the way.
On October 28 2011 23:24 Grumbels wrote: Kind of a silly question, but I always wondered what Flash's weaknesses are. He does get outplayed from time to time, so are there just players of almost equal skill that might have a good day or does he have weak spots?
I'm a big KT Fan so again I'll be biased with my answer but it's his wrists.... His early, meta, late game are all off the charts. And he makes decisions which puzzle you early game because it doesnt make any sense but then somehow that move ends up being where he was thinking 8-9 moves ahead and ends up winning the game for him..
The only players who have really cracked FlaSh surprisingly is BeSt...eFFort and JangBi but they've been absolutely man handled before by FlaSh when hes on his game incomparison where the other three had to play perfect just to end up winning.
I'm Absolutely ECSTATIC about BW terrans joining in The Fish Sea FlaSh FanTasy and then my 2nd favorite terran after FlaSh LighT.
Maybe when they join, people can stop assuming my screen name LighT comes from Death note...sigh....LEE JAE HO!
On October 29 2011 00:01 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote: I cant wait for the BW pros to switch over so they can get man handled. It doesnt take too much talent to be the top player at a game that only a handful of players play. SC2 increased the player count many times over. It's funny to see all these BW fanboys speaking hypothetical about their heroes dominating the SC2, but you damn well know in their hearts they're hoping they don't switch because then if players like FlaSh, Jaedong, Bisu switch and become good, but don't reach the mind boggling heights of their BW glory, it just proves that they're not RTS gods, just exceptional BW players that were able to excel in a mechanically difficult game -- remember this is a strategy game, it shouldn't take 400 APM to execute a strategy. Also BW became a very niche thing over the years, like curling.
wow. can u write even more bullshit??
what the! if you have 400 APM and you are still on PAR with a guy with 100 APM, then the game is screwed. It will be like any ordinary crap RTS games in which practising more has no effect.
Go play Spam Click v3 then. 400 APM were needed because the game was stupidly user unfriendly. It is not anymore, allowing more people without nerdy skills and time to express their strategical abilities. In a strategy game, that is what is important.
But its real time so you should also be fast as shit.
A pro with 400 APM should never lose to someone with 100 APM, thats just bad game design.
Who said a rts should be like that ? BW is that way, that is all.
EDIT : anyway. Its just that is not the time for SC2 to distinguish players with APM. They have a toon more things to do on the strategy level right now.
LOOOOOL BY THE TIME I POST THIS THERE WILL BE LIKE 5 NINJAS BUT LOOOOOL .... U MISSED THE PART WHERE RTS STANDS FOR REAL TIME STRATEGY LOOOL
On October 29 2011 00:01 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote: I cant wait for the BW pros to switch over so they can get man handled. It doesnt take too much talent to be the top player at a game that only a handful of players play. SC2 increased the player count many times over. It's funny to see all these BW fanboys speaking hypothetical about their heroes dominating the SC2, but you damn well know in their hearts they're hoping they don't switch because then if players like FlaSh, Jaedong, Bisu switch and become good, but don't reach the mind boggling heights of their BW glory, it just proves that they're not RTS gods, just exceptional BW players that were able to excel in a mechanically difficult game -- remember this is a strategy game, it shouldn't take 400 APM to execute a strategy. Also BW became a very niche thing over the years, like curling.
Do you realize the current top players in the world are all former BW pros? None of them were every as skilled or dedicated as the current best in BW and isn't going to change if the players you mentioned switch in the prime of their career.
If you are going to continue posting at least put more thought into what you are saying.
You mean like Huk and Stephano who are the ones that win theses days... ?!?
I'm talking about Korea
So a small community like a he was talking about...
Uh, what? How many current foreign SC2 progamers can compete in GSL? 3-5? That is with the lower-talented field of players than in BW. His post doesn't make any sense and neither do you. It has been established as fact that the most talented and hardest working RTS players are Korean BECAUSE of the BW proscene that has cultivated those players.
Imagine the same argument being applied to US basketball and you will see how silly it is.
Why do you take a Korean tournament as a reference ? Even more a tournament with no consistency, where code S because code B and come back in a minute.
Anyway foreigners that can compete there... hummm "Can" because of skill, or opportunities ? Or are able to live so far away to do so ? How many korean take jet lag as excuses for their lose in foreign tournaments where they came all cocky at the beginning.
Korean were the best, because they played a lot because they were the only ones paid to do so. It is not the case anymore. The end of it.
Korean or not korean, human being have to same capacity, its just a matter of environment. It is evolving, and it is a good news! A tournament were you could always predict the winner, is a bad tournament.
Were the best?
They still are lol
Don't mind that guy, he thinks that us foreigners are on par with koreans. And he said "Human beings have the same capacity". Yeah, tell that to Albert Einstein. I mean anyone could have done that shit right?
Yeah, I feel the same way. I don't think that the mechanical skill cap of the game is high enough to have someone who is mechanically adept as well as strong stratgically to shine. Having very little mechanical requirements to play the game makes it to where I don't think we'll ever really see a 'bonjwa' of sc2. I mean how often do 'top pros' lose to random people on the ladder in sc2.
People have been going on about this "skill cap" of SC2 since Beta.
The top pros STILL make mechanical mistakes quite a lot - MPV vs MMA, MVP made a TON of mechanical errors.
And between top BW pros, the difference was rarely made through pure mechanics anyway - it was through "starsense"/timing/innovative play/mindgames/whatever. Once you had a high enough APM having even more made little difference. The difference in SC2 is that the "high enough" is probably smaller - but nobody has reached that yet, and the best BW pros still don't rely on their mechanics to win.
On October 29 2011 00:01 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote: I cant wait for the BW pros to switch over so they can get man handled. It doesnt take too much talent to be the top player at a game that only a handful of players play. SC2 increased the player count many times over. It's funny to see all these BW fanboys speaking hypothetical about their heroes dominating the SC2, but you damn well know in their hearts they're hoping they don't switch because then if players like FlaSh, Jaedong, Bisu switch and become good, but don't reach the mind boggling heights of their BW glory, it just proves that they're not RTS gods, just exceptional BW players that were able to excel in a mechanically difficult game -- remember this is a strategy game, it shouldn't take 400 APM to execute a strategy. Also BW became a very niche thing over the years, like curling.
Do you realize the current top players in the world are all former BW pros? None of them were every as skilled or dedicated as the current best in BW and isn't going to change if the players you mentioned switch in the prime of their career.
If you are going to continue posting at least put more thought into what you are saying.
You mean like Huk and Stephano who are the ones that win theses days... ?!?
I'm talking about Korea
So a small community like a he was talking about...
Uh, what? How many current foreign SC2 progamers can compete in GSL? 3-5? That is with the lower-talented field of players than in BW. His post doesn't make any sense and neither do you. It has been established as fact that the most talented and hardest working RTS players are Korean BECAUSE of the BW proscene that has cultivated those players.
Imagine the same argument being applied to US basketball and you will see how silly it is.
Why do you take a Korean tournament as a reference ? Even more a tournament with no consistency, where code S because code B and come back in a minute.
Anyway foreigners that can compete there... hummm "Can" because of skill, or opportunities ? Or are able to live so far away to do so ? How many korean take jet lag as excuses for their lose in foreign tournaments where they came all cocky at the beginning.
Korean were the best, because they played a lot because they were the only ones paid to do so. It is not the case anymore. The end of it.
Korean or not korean, human being have to same capacity, its just a matter of environment. It is evolving, and it is a good news! A tournament were you could always predict the winner, is a bad tournament.
Were the best?
They still are lol
Ok close minded inside. Just don't take it to hard on yourself when you will be the only one playing it.
Facts say otherwise. Seems you're the one that's closeminded.
There are only a handful of foreigners that can compete vs koreans atm. The rest are clearly outclassed.
Koreans have won most of the tournaments they have participated in by a longshot.
On October 29 2011 00:01 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote: I cant wait for the BW pros to switch over so they can get man handled. It doesnt take too much talent to be the top player at a game that only a handful of players play. SC2 increased the player count many times over. It's funny to see all these BW fanboys speaking hypothetical about their heroes dominating the SC2, but you damn well know in their hearts they're hoping they don't switch because then if players like FlaSh, Jaedong, Bisu switch and become good, but don't reach the mind boggling heights of their BW glory, it just proves that they're not RTS gods, just exceptional BW players that were able to excel in a mechanically difficult game -- remember this is a strategy game, it shouldn't take 400 APM to execute a strategy. Also BW became a very niche thing over the years, like curling.
wow. can u write even more bullshit??
what the! if you have 400 APM and you are still on PAR with a guy with 100 APM, then the game is screwed. It will be like any ordinary crap RTS games in which practising more has no effect.
Go play Spam Click v3 then. 400 APM were needed because the game was stupidly user unfriendly. It is not anymore, allowing more people without nerdy skills and time to express their strategical abilities. In a strategy game, that is what is important.
You are right, people who only play 2-3 hours a day should have the same results as people who play 12-14, that shows that the game is properly built and fit to be considered a "sport".
Mechanics should be as important as strategy, hence the "Real Time" aspect of RTS, you know, were APM is basically a resource you have to allocate to win? If you don't think APM should matter I'm not sure starcraft is the game for you.
Consider this, should a brilliant strategic genius with 20 APM, beat a "mediocre" strategist who has 200 APM? I think the answer is obviously not, half the game is coming up with the strategy, the other half is executing it. Would things like MKP mass hellion build in MLG be exciting if it didn't require effort to execute and defend? Of course not, without requiring mechanics the game becomes a glorified TBS.
If Kasparov switched to Checkers, i bet he would do good, but would he be able to show all his skills he gained while playing Chess? No. Would that decision be wise financially in the long run? yes
Assuming Checkers would be the new cool thing that everyone is pumping money into. Thats how i feel when i imagine S-class players switching to SC2.
On October 29 2011 00:01 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote: I cant wait for the BW pros to switch over so they can get man handled. It doesnt take too much talent to be the top player at a game that only a handful of players play. SC2 increased the player count many times over. It's funny to see all these BW fanboys speaking hypothetical about their heroes dominating the SC2, but you damn well know in their hearts they're hoping they don't switch because then if players like FlaSh, Jaedong, Bisu switch and become good, but don't reach the mind boggling heights of their BW glory, it just proves that they're not RTS gods, just exceptional BW players that were able to excel in a mechanically difficult game -- remember this is a strategy game, it shouldn't take 400 APM to execute a strategy. Also BW became a very niche thing over the years, like curling.
wow. can u write even more bullshit??
what the! if you have 400 APM and you are still on PAR with a guy with 100 APM, then the game is screwed. It will be like any ordinary crap RTS games in which practising more has no effect.
Go play Spam Click v3 then. 400 APM were needed because the game was stupidly user unfriendly. It is not anymore, allowing more people without nerdy skills and time to express their strategical abilities. In a strategy game, that is what is important.
When watching pro-games and seeing them hit 200-300APM and STILL not doing everything that's needed in SC2, then that goes to show you are still wrong. APM is needed.
APM means, I can click fast. I does not mean I can click where it matters all the time. Click fast can be achieve by any monkey, clicking where is matters have to though. Their is still ways to improve in this domain. Look at EAPM. Their removed the spam, they fall to 60-100, maybe 200 in fights. So the standard 400 APM in BW, means 60 useful actions in reality. Hugh? What?
On October 29 2011 00:01 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote: I cant wait for the BW pros to switch over so they can get man handled. It doesnt take too much talent to be the top player at a game that only a handful of players play. SC2 increased the player count many times over. It's funny to see all these BW fanboys speaking hypothetical about their heroes dominating the SC2, but you damn well know in their hearts they're hoping they don't switch because then if players like FlaSh, Jaedong, Bisu switch and become good, but don't reach the mind boggling heights of their BW glory, it just proves that they're not RTS gods, just exceptional BW players that were able to excel in a mechanically difficult game -- remember this is a strategy game, it shouldn't take 400 APM to execute a strategy. Also BW became a very niche thing over the years, like curling.
wow. can u write even more bullshit??
what the! if you have 400 APM and you are still on PAR with a guy with 100 APM, then the game is screwed. It will be like any ordinary crap RTS games in which practising more has no effect.
Go play Spam Click v3 then. 400 APM were needed because the game was stupidly user unfriendly. It is not anymore, allowing more people without nerdy skills and time to express their strategical abilities. In a strategy game, that is what is important.
But its real time so you should also be fast as shit.
A pro with 400 APM should never lose to someone with 100 APM, thats just bad game design.
If you have 400 APM but you use it to consistently make shit decisions compared to someone with 100 APM you deserve to lose.
On October 29 2011 00:22 Hassybaby wrote: IF Flash switches, I hope he plays Protoss. I'd rather a progamer pick a race because he wants to enjoy it instead of purely an economic decision
Even then he wouldn't pick P lol
Nvm, apparently it was Bisu who possibly said he'd play Toss for fun and Terran for money
Exactly what I said, but switch Flash for Bisu
Though I wanna see Flash as Toss as well
I could swear in Bisu's interview thread, he said he'd stay with Toss all the way.
I hope so. Imagining Bisu with Replicators in his hands is downright terrifying in my eyes. The current Protoss players are defiantly trying to be innovative, but he takes it to a new level
For the record, I play random, so I'm not really racially biased. I just like seeing crazy, cool shit happening, especially if it causes waves in the metagame
I highly doubt people like Flash and whatever are playing SC2... would they seriously recieve the same pay? He's only just got a massive pay rise if I'm not mistaken
On October 29 2011 00:22 Hassybaby wrote: IF Flash switches, I hope he plays Protoss. I'd rather a progamer pick a race because he wants to enjoy it instead of purely an economic decision
Even then he wouldn't pick P lol
Nvm, apparently it was Bisu who possibly said he'd play Toss for fun and Terran for money
Exactly what I said, but switch Flash for Bisu
Though I wanna see Flash as Toss as well
I could swear in Bisu's interview thread, he said he'd stay with Toss all the way.
Exactly.
DES: If you do change over you starcraft 2, would you continue to play protoss?
Bisu: If you're asking for my opinion, then no. Reviews seem to be calling it Terran-World. It'd be nice if they worked on the balance a little bit. If Terran continues to win like this, who is going to play that game? If you're going to make Protoss such a weak race, might as well get rid of it. It's quite saddening. But, if I had to make the switch to Starcraft 2, I probably would play Protoss. (laughs)
On October 29 2011 00:01 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote: I cant wait for the BW pros to switch over so they can get man handled. It doesnt take too much talent to be the top player at a game that only a handful of players play. SC2 increased the player count many times over. It's funny to see all these BW fanboys speaking hypothetical about their heroes dominating the SC2, but you damn well know in their hearts they're hoping they don't switch because then if players like FlaSh, Jaedong, Bisu switch and become good, but don't reach the mind boggling heights of their BW glory, it just proves that they're not RTS gods, just exceptional BW players that were able to excel in a mechanically difficult game -- remember this is a strategy game, it shouldn't take 400 APM to execute a strategy. Also BW became a very niche thing over the years, like curling.
wow. can u write even more bullshit??
what the! if you have 400 APM and you are still on PAR with a guy with 100 APM, then the game is screwed. It will be like any ordinary crap RTS games in which practising more has no effect.
Go play Spam Click v3 then. 400 APM were needed because the game was stupidly user unfriendly. It is not anymore, allowing more people without nerdy skills and time to express their strategical abilities. In a strategy game, that is what is important.
But its real time so you should also be fast as shit.
A pro with 400 APM should never lose to someone with 100 APM, thats just bad game design.
Who said a rts should be like that ? BW is that way, that is all.
EDIT : anyway. Its just that is not the time for SC2 to distinguish players with APM. They have a toon more things to do on the strategy level right now.
LOOOOOL BY THE TIME I POST THIS THERE WILL BE LIKE 5 NINJAS BUT LOOOOOL .... U MISSED THE PART WHERE RTS STANDS FOR REAL TIME STRATEGY LOOOL
lolololol
but seriously, is this guy trolling?
do the generals in battles go like "oh yeah chillax take your time, we can just attack that front slowly"? yeah sure by then you're fucked in like 50 other areas lol seriously
On October 29 2011 00:01 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote: I cant wait for the BW pros to switch over so they can get man handled. It doesnt take too much talent to be the top player at a game that only a handful of players play. SC2 increased the player count many times over. It's funny to see all these BW fanboys speaking hypothetical about their heroes dominating the SC2, but you damn well know in their hearts they're hoping they don't switch because then if players like FlaSh, Jaedong, Bisu switch and become good, but don't reach the mind boggling heights of their BW glory, it just proves that they're not RTS gods, just exceptional BW players that were able to excel in a mechanically difficult game -- remember this is a strategy game, it shouldn't take 400 APM to execute a strategy. Also BW became a very niche thing over the years, like curling.
wow. can u write even more bullshit??
what the! if you have 400 APM and you are still on PAR with a guy with 100 APM, then the game is screwed. It will be like any ordinary crap RTS games in which practising more has no effect.
Go play Spam Click v3 then. 400 APM were needed because the game was stupidly user unfriendly. It is not anymore, allowing more people without nerdy skills and time to express their strategical abilities. In a strategy game, that is what is important.
You are right, people who only play 2-3 hours a day should have the same results as people who play 12-14, that shows that the game is properly built and fit to be considered a "sport".
Mechanics should be as important as strategy, hence the "Real Time" aspect of RTS, you know, were APM is basically a resource you have to allocate to win? If you don't think APM should matter I'm not sure starcraft is the game for you.
Consider this, should a brilliant strategic genius with 20 APM, beat a "mediocre" strategist who has 200 APM? I think the answer is obviously not, half the game is coming up with the strategy, the other half is executing it. Would things like MKP mass hellion build in MLG be exciting if it didn't require effort to execute and defend? Of course not, without requiring mechanics the game becomes a glorified TBS.
Their is difference between 20, 200 (that is hard to reach and can't be all meaningful) and stupid 400.
On October 29 2011 00:01 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote: I cant wait for the BW pros to switch over so they can get man handled. It doesnt take too much talent to be the top player at a game that only a handful of players play. SC2 increased the player count many times over. It's funny to see all these BW fanboys speaking hypothetical about their heroes dominating the SC2, but you damn well know in their hearts they're hoping they don't switch because then if players like FlaSh, Jaedong, Bisu switch and become good, but don't reach the mind boggling heights of their BW glory, it just proves that they're not RTS gods, just exceptional BW players that were able to excel in a mechanically difficult game -- remember this is a strategy game, it shouldn't take 400 APM to execute a strategy. Also BW became a very niche thing over the years, like curling.
Do you realize the current top players in the world are all former BW pros? None of them were every as skilled or dedicated as the current best in BW and isn't going to change if the players you mentioned switch in the prime of their career.
If you are going to continue posting at least put more thought into what you are saying.
You mean like Huk and Stephano who are the ones that win theses days... ?!?
I'm talking about Korea
So a small community like a he was talking about...
Uh, what? How many current foreign SC2 progamers can compete in GSL? 3-5? That is with the lower-talented field of players than in BW. His post doesn't make any sense and neither do you. It has been established as fact that the most talented and hardest working RTS players are Korean BECAUSE of the BW proscene that has cultivated those players.
Imagine the same argument being applied to US basketball and you will see how silly it is.
Why do you take a Korean tournament as a reference ? Even more a tournament with no consistency, where code S because code B and come back in a minute.
Anyway foreigners that can compete there... hummm "Can" because of skill, or opportunities ? Or are able to live so far away to do so ? How many korean take jet lag as excuses for their lose in foreign tournaments where they came all cocky at the beginning.
Korean were the best, because they played a lot because they were the only ones paid to do so. It is not the case anymore. The end of it.
Korean or not korean, human being have to same capacity, its just a matter of environment. It is evolving, and it is a good news! A tournament were you could always predict the winner, is a bad tournament.
Were the best?
They still are lol
Don't mind that guy, he thinks that us foreigners are on par with koreans. And he said "Human beings have the same capacity". Yeah, tell that to Albert Einstein. I mean anyone could have done that shit right?
He's delusional.
He thinks because bw was more mechcanically demanding, that somehow makes sc2 more strategical.
He thinks guys like flash were just mechanical monsters. Little does he seem to realize, those top pros all were mechanical monsters, what separated the good ones from the great ones like jaedong/flash is decision making.
Bw is has more strategical depth than sc2 by a mile
Sad thing about S-Class players switching is that due to the nature of sc2, they will get beat by foreigners and baddies that would have never touched them in BW.
And people will think that the people beating them are "good". S-Class BW players deserve better.
On October 29 2011 00:01 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote: I cant wait for the BW pros to switch over so they can get man handled. It doesnt take too much talent to be the top player at a game that only a handful of players play. SC2 increased the player count many times over. It's funny to see all these BW fanboys speaking hypothetical about their heroes dominating the SC2, but you damn well know in their hearts they're hoping they don't switch because then if players like FlaSh, Jaedong, Bisu switch and become good, but don't reach the mind boggling heights of their BW glory, it just proves that they're not RTS gods, just exceptional BW players that were able to excel in a mechanically difficult game -- remember this is a strategy game, it shouldn't take 400 APM to execute a strategy. Also BW became a very niche thing over the years, like curling.
wow. can u write even more bullshit??
what the! if you have 400 APM and you are still on PAR with a guy with 100 APM, then the game is screwed. It will be like any ordinary crap RTS games in which practising more has no effect.
Go play Spam Click v3 then. 400 APM were needed because the game was stupidly user unfriendly. It is not anymore, allowing more people without nerdy skills and time to express their strategical abilities. In a strategy game, that is what is important.
When watching pro-games and seeing them hit 200-300APM and STILL not doing everything that's needed in SC2, then that goes to show you are still wrong. APM is needed.
APM means, I can click fast. I does not mean I can click where it matters all the time. Click fast can be achieve by any monkey, clicking where is matters have to though. Their is still ways to improve in this domain. Look at EAPM. Their removed the spam, they fall to 60-100, maybe 200 in fights. So the standard 400 APM in BW, means 60 useful actions in reality. Hugh? What?
You say that, and yet you don't know that the APM counters in BW were EAPM.
Tell me, Stephano has high APM (as seen in his multitasking) and yet he sends his infestors to die when fungaling. Would more APM not help that? MVP has high APM (300 before the APM fix) and he still leaves medivacs/marines standing when he does drops while multitasking.
Bisu literally looks as though he's controlling 5 different sets of units in 5 areas at the same time. Short of MMA, I have not seen anyone in SC2 do what I've seen pros do in BW.
Don't call APM clicking fast. Clicking fast is clicking fast. BW APM was actual actions.
On October 29 2011 00:01 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote: I cant wait for the BW pros to switch over so they can get man handled. It doesnt take too much talent to be the top player at a game that only a handful of players play. SC2 increased the player count many times over. It's funny to see all these BW fanboys speaking hypothetical about their heroes dominating the SC2, but you damn well know in their hearts they're hoping they don't switch because then if players like FlaSh, Jaedong, Bisu switch and become good, but don't reach the mind boggling heights of their BW glory, it just proves that they're not RTS gods, just exceptional BW players that were able to excel in a mechanically difficult game -- remember this is a strategy game, it shouldn't take 400 APM to execute a strategy. Also BW became a very niche thing over the years, like curling.
wow. can u write even more bullshit??
what the! if you have 400 APM and you are still on PAR with a guy with 100 APM, then the game is screwed. It will be like any ordinary crap RTS games in which practising more has no effect.
Go play Spam Click v3 then. 400 APM were needed because the game was stupidly user unfriendly. It is not anymore, allowing more people without nerdy skills and time to express their strategical abilities. In a strategy game, that is what is important.
When watching pro-games and seeing them hit 200-300APM and STILL not doing everything that's needed in SC2, then that goes to show you are still wrong. APM is needed.
APM means, I can click fast. I does not mean I can click where it matters all the time. Click fast can be achieve by any monkey, clicking where is matters have to though. Their is still ways to improve in this domain. Look at EAPM. Their removed the spam, they fall to 60-100, maybe 200 in fights. So the standard 400 APM in BW, means 60 useful actions in reality. Hugh? What?
there is no MBS in BW. workers don't auto run to minerals.
can we please ban this troll he's getting me angry.
EPT
