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kingjames01
Canada1603 Posts
However, there are 2 funny things that can be pointed out. - This discussion was really just a 'All Zergs should L2P' thread in disguise. - Also, it was quite amusing how just about everyone comes out and laughs at the OP. My addition to the discussion is that even if Hydras are 'just as quick as etc, etc', when it's time to retreat your army and all you have left is Hydras, you might as well just leave them there to die. They're not getting away. | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
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Velr
Switzerland10696 Posts
On October 26 2011 16:33 DARKHYDRA wrote: I personally don't like the colossus for many reasons but the reaver countered hydras just as bad really. So o don't think its entirely a colossus problem. Well... I don't remember seeing reaver doing any good when "A'd" into Hydras... I also did not see them just walking over Cliffs... ... To use the Reaver (really efficient) was actually pretty hard. To use the Colossus is easyer than using a fucking Stalker... | ||
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DystopiaX
United States16236 Posts
Hydras are slow (relative, as the OP points out) but are also fragile as hell, Lair tech, expensive for being a core unit, have no special abilities, and die before they can do their DPS. | ||
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DARKHYDRA
United States303 Posts
On October 26 2011 16:32 BrosephBrostar wrote: Q: What is holding the Hydralisk back? A: Blizzard gave its role away to the roach and now they have no idea what to do with it at least they're trying to fix it instead of trashing it like the carrier Or maybe they should trash the hydralisk and let the roach shoot air, it seems they want the roach to be this core unit in the zerg army so make it fully functional. As a broodwar player it makes me sad to see those iconic units go but the roach really has replaced the hydra with anti air being the exception. Its kinda weird but if you look at the stats the hydra is essentially an early game unit stuck in the mid game, just the fact that its compareable to marines and stalkers tells you that this unit is out of place tech-wise. On October 26 2011 16:42 Velr wrote: Well... I don't remember seeing reaver doing any good when "A'd" into Hydras... I also did not see them just walking over Cliffs... ... To use the Reaver (really efficient) was actually pretty hard. To use the Colossus is easyer than using a fucking Stalker... True and that's what I'm talking about when I say I dislike the unit. But the end result was the same, you could not fight a protoss that had reaver with hydras unless you wanted to base your success on the opponents control. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On October 26 2011 15:42 Whitewing wrote: No your thinking incorrectly. Whether you have 100 attacks per second or 1 attack every 100 seconds, +1 damage on base 1 damage is a 100% boost in damage output.Just to point out, the hydra attacks much faster than roaches, so the upgrade scaling isn't quite so easy to pin down. They attack more than twice as fast as a roach, so they scale BETTER with attack upgrades than the roach does (+1.2 dps per attack upgrade vs. +1 dps per attack upgrade of the roach). Hydralisks simply get less DPS boost than almost all other units in the game. The only units that have worse benefits are stalkers vs armored (assuming 50% armored 50% non-armored they'd be tied) —which is understandable because it's bonus damage— , ground-mode vikings —which are hardly ever used and shouldn't even be strong— are also tied with hydras, and corruptors which I am particularly perplexed at them not getting more damage per upgrade (the fact they are bland and niche just like hydralisks doesn't help either). | ||
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ETisME
12387 Posts
they can't retreat, that means if you push out and the push failed, you can't save most of your hydras | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
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FrostFire626
United States79 Posts
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Sirion
131 Posts
Hydra vs 3 Marines cost: 100/50 vs 150/0 dps: 14.5 vs 21 ( 31.8 stimmed ) dps(+3): 18.1 vs 31.5 ( 43.8 stimmed) hp: 80 vs 135 ( -30 stimmed, +30 combat shield ) Hydra vs 1 Marauder (non-armored or armored) cost: 100/50 vs 100/25 dps: 14.5 vs 6.7 or 13.4 ( 10 or 20 stimmed ) dps(+3): 18.1 vs 8.8 or 17.6 ( 13 or 26 stimmed ) hp: 80 vs 125 ( -20 stimmed ) armor: 0 vs 1 So marines outperform hydras in every way. No surprise there. Interesting is the comparison to stimmed Marauders against non-armored targets: 14.5 dps and 80 hp vs 13.4 dps and 105 hp, plus 1 armor, concussive shells and 25 less gas. However, as a direct comparison of unit stats is quite limited given all the differences in race mechanics, supporting units, timings and so on I will stop here. But I think those numbers give a good indication why zerg players complain about the hydra(and not just about its speed). | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
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bokeevboke
Singapore1674 Posts
On October 26 2011 17:20 Sirion wrote: Hydra vs 1 Marauder (non-armored or armored) cost: 100/50 vs 125/25 Marauders cost 100/25, cheaper than hydras. But far more cost-effective. Hydras are too expensive :-( | ||
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gulati
United States2241 Posts
When you run too slow to avoid AoE damage, i.e, Storm + Colossus fire, you generally are disfavorable in fights. These are the core reasons for why the Hydralisk is too slow, and too under-used in the standardized metagame. | ||
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saynomore
Norway149 Posts
They are just to expensive and not good enough to be a part of the swarm attack, where retreating always is an option (just not for the hydras). | ||
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Sirion
131 Posts
On October 26 2011 17:29 bokeevboke wrote: Marauders cost 100/25, cheaper than hydras. But far more cost-effective. Hydras are too expensive :-( You are right, thanks. So the comparison is even worse for the hydra. | ||
Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37023 Posts
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bokeevboke
Singapore1674 Posts
On October 26 2011 17:32 gulati wrote: When you run too slow to avoid AoE damage, i.e, Storm + Colossus fire, you generally are disfavorable in fights. These are the core reasons for why the Hydralisk is too slow, and too under-used in the standardized metagame. You mean hydras are underused because they are slow and can't run away from AoE damage? I don't think this is the only reason. They still lose badly to roaches, MM, helions. Somewhat ok against gateway units, if in large numbers. Hydras are bad in low numbers, that means they should be massable. But how are you gonna mass a unit that costs 100/50. I just think there is no place for them in multiplayer. No buff will help to solve this issue. | ||
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Ventor
United States336 Posts
On October 26 2011 13:40 fdsdfg wrote: Um... this is a misguided topic. "What is holding the hydralisk back"? A lot of things. Its low HP, its inability to exist with colossi on the field, its terrible benefit from upgrades, and it's speed. The OP is just 'compared to slow units from other races, the hydralisk isn't much different!' I know. It still sucks past the 12 minute mark. The worst thing about them IMO is the upgrades. With each +1 attack, Hydra goes from: +0: 12 +1: 13 +2: 14 +3: 15 Meanwhile the Roach gets +0: 16 +1: 18 +2: 20 +3: 22 The Zergling +0: 5 +1: 6 +2: 7 +3: 8 It's awful. +3 hydra does 25% more damage than +0, compared to 37/60% more from these other two units respectively. That and their role in the metagame is very dumb. ZvT I've very rarely seen hydras used, but I have also never tried it very much so I can't say much about it. I've used hydras in a lategame army after I've economically won, but that isn't saying much ZvP hydras have a very weird role. Hydras are good against every opening. Hydras are great against phoenix/voidray, immortal/warp prism, and blink stalkers. With a pure gateway build, hydras are great against every unit. Hydras are not bossed around well by forcefields. However, robo and templar tech grow up to get colossi and psi storm, both of which completely nullify Hydralisks. Once air units get too numerous, hydras can't attack effectively since they bump into each other, so they don't work against late game starport play either. Hydras can be the damage dealers when they first come out, but they cannot sustain their role in an army for long. I go hydras often just so I can tech switch to something else once they respond, and they can be good before they respond - but they're just too easy to nullify. Did it ever occur to you the hydra only gets +1 attack per upgrade due to it's attack speed? I'm sorry but if hydras got +2 per upgrade you'd have yourself a unit which could do over 20 dps. | ||
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achristes
Norway653 Posts
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Lixo
202 Posts
I really would love him to show us how to use the unit, I love them from my SC 1 days. | ||
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