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The Hydralisk
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/5/55/Hydralisk.png) A long standing icon of the Zerg race, dating all the way back to the original Starcraft, the beloved Hydralisk hardly seems beloved in Wings of Liberty, why could that be?
Time and time again, from forum poster to big-time caster, I hear remarks of how slow the Hydralisk is off creep. I personally never really bought into the "hype" so to speak and thought Hydralisks were fine. After hearing that Hydralisks will be getting a speed boost in Heart of the Swarm, my mind was blown.
Here are a few statistics about the Hydralisk:
+ Show Spoiler [Hydralisk] +Speed 2.25
Speed Multiplier on Creep 1.5
Speed on Creep 3.375
Now, when we look at that compared to say, the Zergling:
+ Show Spoiler [Zergling] +Speed 2.9531 (+1.746)
Speed Multiplier on Creep 1.3
Speed on Creep 3.83903 (+2.2698)
The Hydralisk seems pretty slow right?
Now, what if we compare the Hydralisk to the Roach?
+ Show Spoiler [Roach] +Speed 2.25 (+0.75)
Speed Multiplier on Creep 1.3
Speed on Creep 2.92 (+0.975)
Well, now they move at the same speed before the Gilial Reconstitution upgrade don't they? In fact, Hydralisks get more of a speed bonus on creep than Roaches do!
I can see though, how to an army comprised of Metabolic-Boosted Zerglings, and Gilial Reconstituted Roaches, the Hydralisk at 2.25 speed might SEEM slow.
Lets compare our "slow" Hydralisk to some other units shall we?
I'll start with Terran, now, the Marine is a core unit in any Terran army (perhaps barring Mech play in TvT) and what speed does the Marine offer us?
+ Show Spoiler [Marine] +
The Marine doesn't seem like a slow unit does it? Even without Stimpack, the Marine is a very versatile and effective unit. It might not surprise you that the Marauder features the SAME speed of 2.25!
This "speedy and versatile" organic force of Terran offers a lot of mobility, and map control right? What about their mechanized units?
Of course, the speedy Hellion offers a speed of 4.25, greatly surpassing most units, I'm sure nobody would be surprised there. Looking further into the mechanized unit tree the Terran Factory can produce, one would find that the Siege Tank ALSO shares the Hydralisk's speed of 2.25. Recently, some players have even begun incorporating Mech play into TvZ to frightening effectiveness, and the core unit involved in Mechanized TvZ is the Thor:
+ Show Spoiler [Thor] +
If the Hydralisk is slow to the point of uselessness at 2.25 speed, what good will a Thor do at 1.875? Surely no amount of firepower or DPS could make up for that detrimental aspect of the unit.
Enough about Terran though, because we all know Terran is overpowered, and their units are all too good. Surely the underpowered Protoss will show us just how slow the Hydralisk is in comparison!
Lets look at the Zealot, the beefy core component of most Protoss armies.
+ Show Spoiler [Zealot] +
As you can see, before Charge is researched, the Zealot also shares the 2.25 speed that is so agonizingly slow. How about the most mobile ground unit the Protoss has to offer, the Stalker?
+ Show Spoiler [Stalker] + Quite a large jump there wouldn't you say? With such a speedy unit in their posession, Zealots must never be able to keep up and remain effective in engagements! Protoss however, has to suffer due to the speedy Stalker, keeping one of their most essential units, the Sentry, back at 2.25 speed!
As we move into the mid-game and on to the late-game, players move up the Tech Tree, and gain access to their crucial spellcasters.
Lets look at the Terran Ghost, arguably the most controversial unit at this time:
+ Show Spoiler [Ghost] +
How about Zerg's own Infestor?:
+ Show Spoiler [Infestor] +
Finally, what about the Protoss High Templar? Surely with Charge-Zealots and the speedy Stalker, they have a quick Spellcaster to keep up with their army?
+ Show Spoiler [High Templar] +
My conjecture was far from correct as you can see. (It should also be noted here for other discussions that the High Templar and Infestor only offer a sight range of 10, while the Ghost offers a sight range of 11)
Perhaps it's not that the Hydralisk is too slow to be useful, it's that the Hydralisk is a medium speed unit in a race that features some of the quickest core units?
I wrote this hoping to open the eyes of some less-studious players, as well as perhaps dispell some of the "hype" around the Hydralisk being too slow to be useful. I hardly think the 2.25 speed the Hydralisk sports is a single crippling weakness holding back a very potent damage dealing unit.
All Images and Unit statistics taken directly from TeamLiquid's Liquipedia
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HotS speed upgrade off creep = probably rebalanced, maybe less damage. It'd allow for / demand more micro. An HP nerf would probably be unreasonable considering how low it is already.
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That's a nice way of thinking but you're only comparing how "slow" the hydras is to other units. The problem with hydras being so slow is that zerg units are supposed to be fast. Zergs have weaker units and are supposed to be able to spread around the map and with every single zerg unit faster then hydras it just makes them completely none viable.
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The aoe damage is holding the hydralisk back.
Slow glass cannons are worthless in Deathballcraft. They are great as something to add 5-10 to a roach ball, but nothing more. Even with the HOTS speed upgrade, they just get ruined 1v1 vs every unit comp so you will never mass them.
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Unit clumping along with instant>missile attacks is holding the Hydra back
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I'm actually not sure why the Hydralisk isn't used very much. The only two things I can pin point down is the mediocre speed and how fragile they are. Yes, they are glass cannons with insanely high DPS, but they die quickly. You do not want to be trading hydras for marines and there's units that do exceptionally well against hydralisks for the Terrans (siege tanks, hellions). Against the Protoss they absolutely demolish gateway units but falter to the colossi and or storms.
If it did receive a speed buff I wonder if people will start using hydralisks more.
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I personally have several issues with the Hydralisk. First and foremost to me, this thing is made of paper. It has only 80 HP, with 0 armor, compared to the 145 HP of the Roach, which also comes with an extra armor for half the gas and three-fourths of the mineral cost. And even then, the Roach is considered an armored unit, making it a valuable unit in nearly any engagement.
In a maxed encounter against a Protoss army, going with 3/3 upgrades, a Colossus can two-shot a whole line of Hydralisks. Because of the likelihood that Protoss will both have a Colossi, and have more than one Colossi in the late game, Hydralisks lose all of their usefulness.
As for the speed issue: As you pointed out, it isn't actually that slow when compared to other races, but when compared to the units that it will be fighting side-by-side with, this thing is the the weakest link. A Zerg army, by necessity, needs to be quick and nimble, able to run circles around another army to counter attack or to defend some far-flung expansion. With the Hydralisk, this style of play becomes unusable, and because of how quickly Hydralisk tend to die, you can't use them to play cost -effectively.
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I don't think it's so much a matter of speed ( although that "can" be an issue ) the main problem is that they are squishy. Take a colossus for example. Colossi's melt hydras. End of story. They will never be used against Terran because marines will melt them. Simple. I do wish that my hyrda's were most useful though.
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Are these stats for Heart of the Swarm or Wings of Liberty? It is true I hardly see much hydralisk action in any level of play. Back in Broodwar, i loved using the hydralisk(i play terran in sc2T.T) mainly because it gives me a unit that can hit both air and ground(zergs has no anti air at all tier one and my micro is too crappy to efficiently use mutalisks). Those many D level games of 5 hatch hydra brings back nostalgic memories.
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You're pretty much beating a dead horse. This has been discussed to death.
The problem with the hydralisk is that it doesn't have a role to fill.
It's too slow too be a harassing unit. It doesn't have enough life to take part in battles especially after aoe is out and it does not have enough range to be an artillery unit.
Edit: They also scale terrible with upgrades.
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Marines can Stim, Stalkers can Blink, Hydras get a speed boost on creep. Stim/blink is good defensively or offensively, whereas you can't have the hydras abuse their bonus anywhere except defensively (unless you have insane creep spread and it't not stopped) and being a glass cannon, i wouldn't use a hydra for defence
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-low move speed off creep
-collossi rape them
-storm rape them
-ineffective against mnm
-no upgrades to lurkers (pure hydras were only ever used against P)
-in current zvz meta, no time to techto them; infestors infinetly better
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The part of the problem is not just the speed. It's the fact that hydras don't have the extra mobility to increase speed on their own. Marines and marauders can stim and stalkers can blink, combine this with Hydra's expensive cost especially considering their health, it makes them a costly unit to have attack and attempt to retreat. In most cases, if you have to retreat with your hydra army, you are going to lose most of that army. And losing a hydra heavy army usually means you lose the game.
It's just an extremely fragile unit with a high cost that can't retreat very well.
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On October 26 2011 13:31 darkscream wrote:
The aoe damage is holding the hydralisk back.
Slow glass cannons are worthless in Deathballcraft. They are great as something to add 5-10 to a roach ball, but nothing more. Even with the HOTS speed upgrade, they just get ruined 1v1 vs every unit comp so you will never mass them.
On October 26 2011 13:30 DrBoo wrote:
That's a nice way of thinking but you're only comparing how "slow" the hydras is to other units. The problem with hydras being so slow is that zerg units are supposed to be fast. Zergs have weaker units and are supposed to be able to spread around the map and with every single zerg unit faster then hydras it just makes them completely none viable.
On October 26 2011 13:33 Fishgle wrote:
Unit clumping along with instant>missile attacks is holding the Hydra back
See? We already have three different answers for what might be holding the Hydralisk back!
The Stalker, Viking, Phoenix, Mutalisk, and Roach among other units seem to work just fine despite having missile-based attack animations!
Sure, the Hydralisk might not be as fast as other Zerg units, but it shares the same speed of Roaches and Infestors, two core units in the Zerg army! On top of that, the Hydralisk offers an unparalled 14.5 DPS against a single target!
Sure, Hydralisks might be fragile, and tough to protect in large engagements, but that doesn't rule them out all-together, Protoss is able to buffer their Sentries against damage by using Zealots!
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Um... this is a misguided topic.
"What is holding the hydralisk back"? A lot of things. Its low HP, its inability to exist with colossi on the field, its terrible benefit from upgrades, and it's speed.
The OP is just 'compared to slow units from other races, the hydralisk isn't much different!' I know. It still sucks past the 12 minute mark.
The worst thing about them IMO is the upgrades.
With each +1 attack, Hydra goes from:
+0: 12
+1: 13
+2: 14
+3: 15
Meanwhile the Roach gets
+0: 16
+1: 18
+2: 20
+3: 22
The Zergling
+0: 5
+1: 6
+2: 7
+3: 8
It's awful. +3 hydra does 25% more damage than +0, compared to 37/60% more from these other two units respectively.
That and their role in the metagame is very dumb.
ZvT I've very rarely seen hydras used, but I have also never tried it very much so I can't say much about it. I've used hydras in a lategame army after I've economically won, but that isn't saying much
ZvP hydras have a very weird role. Hydras are good against every opening. Hydras are great against phoenix/voidray, immortal/warp prism, and blink stalkers. With a pure gateway build, hydras are great against every unit. Hydras are not bossed around well by forcefields.
However, robo and templar tech grow up to get colossi and psi storm, both of which completely nullify Hydralisks. Once air units get too numerous, hydras can't attack effectively since they bump into each other, so they don't work against late game starport play either.
Hydras can be the damage dealers when they first come out, but they cannot sustain their role in an army for long. I go hydras often just so I can tech switch to something else once they respond, and they can be good before they respond - but they're just too easy to nullify.
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On October 26 2011 13:40 fdsdfg wrote:
Um... this is a misguided topic.
"What is holding the hydralisk back"? A lot of things. Its low HP, its inability to exist with colossi on the field, its terrible benefit from upgrades, and it's speed.
The OP is just 'compared to slow units from other races, the hydralisk isn't much different!' I know. It still sucks past the 12 minute mark.
I have a gas theory in that it is simply not worth spending 50 gass per hydralisk without speed because they can`t be microed off creep but with micro you can see marines and marauders deal with the aoe of a low count collossii ball. Maybe then
But if the gas was reduced to 25 like the tier one roach you would see zerg buy them more often. Because they would be realtively inexpensive for their dps when compared with the roach.
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this has so many strawmen that you could be a farmer
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Let me add it costs 2 supply to the list.
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On October 26 2011 13:40 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 13:31 darkscream wrote:
The aoe damage is holding the hydralisk back.
Slow glass cannons are worthless in Deathballcraft. They are great as something to add 5-10 to a roach ball, but nothing more. Even with the HOTS speed upgrade, they just get ruined 1v1 vs every unit comp so you will never mass them. Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 13:30 DrBoo wrote:
That's a nice way of thinking but you're only comparing how "slow" the hydras is to other units. The problem with hydras being so slow is that zerg units are supposed to be fast. Zergs have weaker units and are supposed to be able to spread around the map and with every single zerg unit faster then hydras it just makes them completely none viable.
Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 13:33 Fishgle wrote:
Unit clumping along with instant>missile attacks is holding the Hydra back See? We already have three different answers for what might be holding the Hydralisk back! The Stalker, Viking, Phoenix, Mutalisk, and Roach among other units seem to work just fine despite having missile-based attack animations! Sure, the Hydralisk might not be as fast as other Zerg units, but it shares the same speed of Roaches and Infestors, two core units in the Zerg army! On top of that, the Hydralisk offers an unprecedented 14.5 DPS against a single target! Sure, Hydralisks might be fragile, and tough to protect in large engagements, but that doesn't rule them out all-together, Protoss is able to buffer their Sentries against damage by using Zealots!
You say that it shares the same speed as Roaches and Infestors? Well, who actually would go a full game without getting Roach Speed? Sheth, maybe. As for the Infestors, they aren't combat units. They're support spell-casters with a spell that stops enemy movement. The Hydralisk is a expensive side-stop on the tech tree. In order to make them usable at all, you have to get the grooved spines upgrade, which means you have to spend 250 gas before even making the first Hydra. And even then, an Infestor has more HP than the Hydralisk, and is an armored unit, and can burrow while moved, and can spawn a bunch of Infested Terrans to soak damage/wall off while it runs.
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Being little is its main prob and cost nough said rly if either was fixed I'd like it.
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EPT
