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On October 27 2011 06:22 Harrow wrote:
Do Hydras NEED to be a core unit, used in every game? We're not talking about the BW Scout or SC2 Carrier here in terms of representation, Hydras turn up pretty frequently as a situational unit in ZvP.
I get that they were well-liked and iconic in BW, but I don't think that needs to drive game design decisions for SC2.
Well they are still kinda Iconic.
Have we ever seen a trailer with zerg without a hydra at least popping up somewhere?
They look so menacing in those and ingame they simply have to much flaws.
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On October 26 2011 13:40 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 13:31 darkscream wrote:
The aoe damage is holding the hydralisk back.
Slow glass cannons are worthless in Deathballcraft. They are great as something to add 5-10 to a roach ball, but nothing more. Even with the HOTS speed upgrade, they just get ruined 1v1 vs every unit comp so you will never mass them. Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 13:30 DrBoo wrote:
That's a nice way of thinking but you're only comparing how "slow" the hydras is to other units. The problem with hydras being so slow is that zerg units are supposed to be fast. Zergs have weaker units and are supposed to be able to spread around the map and with every single zerg unit faster then hydras it just makes them completely none viable.
Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 13:33 Fishgle wrote:
Unit clumping along with instant>missile attacks is holding the Hydra back See? We already have three different answers for what might be holding the Hydralisk back! The Stalker, Viking, Phoenix, Mutalisk, and Roach among other units seem to work just fine despite having missile-based attack animations! Sure, the Hydralisk might not be as fast as other Zerg units, but it shares the same speed of Roaches and Infestors, two core units in the Zerg army! On top of that, the Hydralisk offers an unparalled 14.5 DPS against a single target! Sure, Hydralisks might be fragile, and tough to protect in large engagements, but that doesn't rule them out all-together, Protoss is able to buffer their Sentries against damage by using Zealots!
The only time you attack with roaches is after you have roach speed almost exclusively unless you are all inning. The same is true of lings. So it's not really accurate to say that they have the same speed roaches, because roaches themselves are considered a liability to attack with unless you have that speed upgrade. It's not like it's optional. If you have roaches, you research speed. If you don't, you're either all inning or making a huge mistake.
There is no hydra all in*, and they don't have a speed upgrade, so please stop saying that they have the same speed as roaches.
*Aside from maybe, maybe, some kind of drop all in play against protoss, but I've never seen that as an all-in move.
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I find Hydralisks to be pretty useful at defending drop harass.
In small skirmishes they are dominant, can destroy the Medivac/Prism, and are usually needed to beat Thors/Immortals cost efficiently anyway. They aren't a bad unit, everyone just wants them to be the strongest unit in the Zerg arsenal.
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Wait til beta when no one even bothers with the gas investment of making the horrible Hydralisk. Everyone keeps talking about Viper/Fest/Hydra to finally make the Hydra useful, but the gas investment is WAYYYY too much. Then to boot you need Hive for speed upgrade.
Sorry my fellow Zerg but I would expect the Hydra to follow the Carrier in terms of "placement" by HoTS launch. Unless of course Blizzard continues their current course of doing just plain ridiculous changes and attempts at "fixes."
Too be honest I would love to see the Roach and Hydra swap positions and EVEN SEE THE ROACH GO! It sucks really. Not for the sake of it being "back to the way things were" but just because it makes sense and fills crucial holes in need of patching.
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While I think the hydra is underrated by a fair amount of people. It is, at least as far as I can tell, the only unit in SC2 without an ability/morph/skill that makes it truly unique. It has no aoe, super range, extra damage modifiers, or useable or passive ability. I cannot think of another unit in the game that this is true for. This maybe why so many people have trouble finding a real role for it besides anti-air and crushing gate way units.
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its slow off creep, its expensive, it has no health, it dies to everything really fast unless it has a meat shield.
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Sorry just had to laugh when you said marines and marauders granted map control... let me explain myself, what units grant map control? zerlings, mutalisks, hellions, sieged tanks, dark templars, phoenix. why they grant map control?
-Zerlings, are fast and numerous, you can pretty much run from one side of the map to the other in few seconds, if you leave your base with few units and lings are on the field you are pretty much asking those units to be killed, you also need to prepare for any kind of runby that could end your economy right there.
-The mutalisk, it grants map control because of its speed, it also forces an entire army composition and a considerable investment on defense, forcing the player to play defensively
-Hellions are somewhat similar to the zerlings, but they dont do really well against buildings, and only against light units, yet you can scout the entire map quite easily with them and with minimal loses.
-Sieged tanks, they deny access to areas unless you are willing to take fire. if not sieged they arent really good and dont provide any decent kind of map control.
-DT's, forces the players to get detection to defend, then forces mobile detection to move out, it doesnt provide much map awareness but its a strong enough threat to avoid undefended expanding.
-Phoenix, they are fast, they grant map vision, but they are only really strong in numbers, and protoss unlike zerg cant train 6 of them at a time unless they invest a huge amount of minerals on buildings.
Marines and marauders... they need to be in large numbers (10+), cumpled and properly supported by tanks or medivacs and with stim, if not they are not really dangerous, unless your opponent doesnt know a thing about how to counter units. For them to grant "map control" you need to spread them on different parts of the map, and that way they are not strong and can be easily taken out. They are not really slow, but they arent fast enough to be able to scout properly without having significant loses. Thats why marines and marauders dont "give map control". is actually a mix of different abilities, numbers and proper support.
Now on the topic. the issue with the hydra is the speed, and maybe the cost, but if the cost is lowered so should be the dps of the unit.
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The problem with the Hydra is it is too generic and difficult to micro. With the speed upgrade in HotS this might change, but I'm not convinced. We'll see in the Beta.
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On October 27 2011 11:06 David451 wrote:
The problem with the Hydra is it is too generic and difficult to micro. With the speed upgrade in HotS this might change, but I'm not convinced. We'll see in the Beta.
actually its bad because its slow as hell off creep so you cant reinforce with it, it dies to fucking everything, and its not cost efficient. you micro them the same way you would micro roaches w/o burrow move. are roaches bad then?
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On October 27 2011 04:41 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 04:33 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On October 27 2011 04:23 PhiliBiRD wrote:
The only thing that has ever held the Hydralisk back is great creep spread.
The difference in speed from ling/roach to hydralisk makes it somewhat more difficult to control your army, thus makign it less popular as well. Well that's easy to say isn't it? 1) No matter how well you spread, there is a boundary you can't pass 2) Even great creep spread takes a while 3) Decent opponents kill creep T.T All my hard work.... is what I keep on thinking when people kill the creep =_=
I will usually build an extra queen or two for creep spread, but as I expand I put my extra queens back on larva duty and let the boatload of tumors spread themselves out. When they get destroyed, I never know what to do. It seems silly ot build more queens, and I don't want to gut my larvae count for them.
So I usually just end up going 'oh... i guess creep is over'.
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On October 27 2011 11:48 Soulriser wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 11:06 David451 wrote:
The problem with the Hydra is it is too generic and difficult to micro. With the speed upgrade in HotS this might change, but I'm not convinced. We'll see in the Beta. actually its bad because its slow as hell off creep so you cant reinforce with it, it dies to fucking everything, and its not cost efficient. you micro them the same way you would micro roaches w/o burrow move. are roaches bad then?
Slow as hell = same speed as a marine? Yet somehow marines manage to reinforce. It doesn't die to everything: it slaughters protoss gateway units, protoss air units, and the immortal.
Roaches have a speed upgrade.
Why am I even responding.
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They don't scale very well. If you changed their damage to be something like 12+1 versus X and then upgrades gave +1 to both normal and bonus damage, they would find a point very quickly. The fact is, as others have said, just Roaches does well enough. It's hard to justify spending DOUBLE the gas for a unit with perhaps half the lifespan(and, ultimately, barely higher damage).
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Honestly, the problem with the hydra isn't its off-creep speed or upgrade scaling or gas cost or supply cost or armor-type or PDDs. The problem is that there isn't any zerg strategy that requires hydras in order to succeed. Anything you can get done with hydras, you can get done with roaches, given either more time or more roaches.
It's not a bad unit. (I love the little buggers, myself). But until someone creates a hydra-dependent strategy, there isn't really an obvious way to fix it.
Fun Fact: Did you know that an unupgraded hydra has higher DPS than a fully upgraded zergling with adrenal glands? It's true. (14.45 vs 13.62)
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On October 26 2011 13:46 Soulish wrote:
this has so many strawmen that you could be a farmer
hahahahahaahah.
excellent post.
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having slow move speed when you are trying to attack 13 range tanks and 9 range colossi that kill you in 2-3 hits is what makes them useless.
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On October 27 2011 16:12 Scarmath wrote:
Honestly, the problem with the hydra isn't its off-creep speed or upgrade scaling or gas cost or supply cost or armor-type or PDDs. The problem is that there isn't any zerg strategy that requires hydras in order to succeed. Anything you can get done with hydras, you can get done with roaches, given either more time or more roaches.
It's not a bad unit. (I love the little buggers, myself). But until someone creates a hydra-dependent strategy, there isn't really an obvious way to fix it.
Fun Fact: Did you know that an unupgraded hydra has higher DPS than a fully upgraded zergling with adrenal glands? It's true. (14.45 vs 13.62)
it is a bad unit because it gets HARD countered by colossi and tanks, units T and P will almost always get against a zerg.
and the DPS sucks just compare it to marines that cost no gas at all.
your fun fact is retarded: comparing an upgraded 0.5 supply unit against 2 supply proves what exactly? nothing at all.
you would have 4 zerglings for the same supply (without gas cost) meaning 13.62 *4 = 54.48 dps against 14.45 dps (18.1 fully upgraded).
are you joking or what? where is that a high DPS?
did you know upgraded stimmed marines do 15.6 DPS for half the supply and also without gas?
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i think hydras would have been buffed by now (speed, dps, cost, etc) if the game was only ZvT and ZvZ. however hydra compositions are very cost effective vs. protoss compositions that don't have splash dmg, so much so that protoss needs the splash dmg units to win, which means the splash dmg units better "do work" vs hydras.
*it's the same idea with marines vs splash. the hydra is much weaker but the balancing is just the same. i dunno if terran would ever lose if Z and P couldn't faceroll marines with banelings, storm, and colo. imo it's not the best or only way they could balance these units out but it seems to be how they did it
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On October 27 2011 17:25 taintmachine wrote:
i think hydras would have been buffed by now (speed, dps, cost, etc) if the game was only ZvT and ZvZ. however hydra compositions are very cost effective vs. protoss compositions that don't have splash dmg, so much so that protoss needs the splash dmg units to win, which means the splash dmg units better "do work" vs hydras.
*it's the same idea with marines vs splash. the hydra is much weaker but the balancing is just the same. i dunno if terran would ever lose if Z and P couldn't faceroll marines with banelings, storm, and colo. imo it's not the best or only way they could balance these units out but it seems to be how they did it
Phoenix/Zealot isn't aoe and it destroys Hydras like they're nothing.
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One thing holding the Hydralisk back is that 9/10 pro level games where a zerg player builds Hydralisks, they lose. Seriously, most games at a high level that involve hydras end in a loss for the zerg player.
Until some good Zerg (Nestea, DRG, ect) manages to find a solid strong build that incorperates Hydralisks and this builds sees success, the Hydra will probably be shunned
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EPT
