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On October 27 2011 04:33 Crisium wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 04:30 Cuiu wrote:
i have a question a bout the hydra.
i never played Bw mp
but I've seen a few games and i never saw hydras except in zvp
and in zvt but only for lurker
and zvz was always ling muta or just lings
was that a coincidence?
so from what i saw hydra was used only in zvp offensive TvZ in BW had two major styles - Bio and Mech. Pure Mech (no Marines) meant the Zerg would mass Hydras. Bio often transitions into Mech after long games that use the whole map, but otherwise starting pure Mech is rare (unless you are iloveoov or Fantasy) and so Hydras aren't always seen in TvZ.
so it was in bw less used then in sc2
but why do people complain about the hydra then?
because i see it in zvp and zvz.
i dont rly care im just curious...
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On October 26 2011 23:07 Jack.D.Ripper wrote:
I find the biggest problem with the hydralisk is the fact that it is the only vanilla unit in starcraft 2. What role does the hydralisk fill in the zerg army. Its a ranged ground/air attacker. What upgrade does it have? +1 range +damage +armor. The Hydralisk needs something to make it special. I propose a addition to the +1 ranged upgrade. Make the upgrade give hydralisk an auto attack that causes enemy units behind its target (like 1.5 additional range) to take the same amount of damage.
Just an idea to make hydra viable and I think it would be a flavorful upgrade.
Oh my god, a "Piercing Spines" upgrade would be absolutely amazing, I wouldn't even want it on the same upgrade, I'd take it at hive tech. Put 3 upgrades on the hydra den: range, "reinforced carapace" (+10 hp and remove armor typing; armor strong enough to not be light but also not armored) both at lair tech and "Piercing Spines" at hive tech (linear splash damage vs. light). It would be awesome (clearly I haven't considered balance but hey).
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Your argument is mostly invalid as you are arguing mathemathics and at no point are you actually looking at the unit compositions that people use in the game. You will never see a protoss without stalkers against zerg. It is actually completely irrelevant that the sentry or zealot can't catch up to a hydralisk when the stalker does. Because the second you stop and try to attack the stalkers then the zealots will gain on you (because the hydras are not faster than zealots). A terran will very rarely not have marines with stim in his army. The second a hydralisk tries to run from marines or marauders he is stimmed after and destroyed.
The whole point of the hydralisk being to slow is not to compare it's speeds to other races units. It is to understand what its purpose needs to be for it to be a worthwhile expense (because it is very expensive to the race that relies so much on gas).
Protoss and terran have deathballs. Protoss is more mobile than terran and terran in turn has a better damage output when stationary (this is purely vs zerg). Zerg however does not have a deathball type army until they are on 4-5 base with 10+ broods and 10+ infestors (which is often about 18+ min into a game). Hence the only way a zerg can play up until that point is by counter attacking and dropping. Any unit that can no run faster than the opposing core units (such as colossus, zealot, unstimmedf bio etc) can really not partake in counter attack play. Especially if making that unit will set you back an additional 500 gas or more just to be useful.
The hydralisk does not have a way of harassing the opponent. Zerg can't afford to spend money early/mid game on a unit that potentially just sits around in ones base and waits for an attack that may or may not come from the opponent. People want to make hydralisks to counter such things as mass phoenix and a 6gate stalker or soemthing similar. But it's extremely volatile to try to do so because if you don't crush your opponent and stop him from expanding or actually kill him with a counter, the hydras will grow less and less useful. Simply because they are close to useless vs a colossus or tank based army.
With the new hydra speed they will be able to dodge colossus beams and tank shots by spreading out or "kiting" in certain circumstances. They will be usable for sniping poorly defended expansions and running away. Drops will even be more useful as you can probably do even more damage before you have to move out.
Hydra speed is needed to bridge that huge gap zerg currently has between zergling/roach and the infestor / broodlord tech. Hydras worked this way in sc1. They cost less, did less damage and took less food but the principle and balance remains the same.
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If hydras got a health buff, then they might actually have some use. But hydras are a unit that terran stims INTO, and their damage potential is terrible. High DPS my ass, nothing is going to make them effective against marines or DBs.
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I've lost so many games to hydras it pisses me off. Especially if it's an allin because if you go either blink, air, DTs etc it all just dies and its so hard to fight off. The only good unit against them is the collosus but it's so hard to have even 1 out by the time hydras are at your door step. Storm can apparently be used as well but I've never had success with HT without amulet.
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For me, cost always seems to be the limited factor with hydras. If they cost fewer minerals I could afford more of them to support my roach army and be less punished by the fact that they die so easily.
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I feel like SC2 is pretty much a game of DPS vs AoE - or to put it bluntly, Marines vs anti-Marine units. Mass Marines will beat you unless you get AoE to take them out. Hydras are simply less effective Marines (and cost gas to boot) who suffer just as much against the same AoE. So, by balancing the game around keeping Marines fair, the game designers have unwittingly made Hydras bad.
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I disagree with what some people are saying about zerg being a mobility race.
I think zerg can be just as much turtle-like, with spines/hydras/burrowed banes/broods/queens/infestors.
The niche that hydras have atm are that they're driven by creep. They are useless without creep.
So if u want to go hydras, u need a sick creep spread, that is if you want to be aggressive.
Hydras own at defending, own in late game with creep all over, they own in nydus/overlord drop attacks, cuz there will be creep.
With faster off creep speed, they will just be a less tanky roach.
If a hydra speed upgrade is pending, i hope for the love of god, it's hive tech.
Not for balance reasons, but for the unit role's reason.
Another thing is, i can't believe we're in the year 2011 and games still have units without spells/special abilities..
Hydra, Muta, Hellion, Ultralisk.
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On October 26 2011 20:36 foxmeep wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 16:48 DARKHYDRA wrote:On October 26 2011 16:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
Q: What is holding the Hydralisk back?
A: Blizzard gave its role away to the roach and now they have no idea what to do with it
at least they're trying to fix it instead of trashing it like the carrier Or maybe they should trash the hydralisk and let the roach shoot air, it seems they want the roach to be this core unit in the zerg army so make it fully functional. As a broodwar player it makes me sad to see those iconic units go but the roach really has replaced the hydra with anti air being the exception. Its kinda weird but if you look at the stats the hydra is essentially an early game unit stuck in the mid game, just the fact that its compareable to marines and stalkers tells you that this unit is out of place tech-wise. On October 26 2011 16:42 Velr wrote:On October 26 2011 16:33 DARKHYDRA wrote:On October 26 2011 16:23 0neder wrote:
Basically everything boils down to the fact that Blizzard won't axe the colossus, but it ruins the game in so many ways... I personally don't like the colossus for many reasons but the reaver countered hydras just as bad really. So o don't think its entirely a colossus problem. Well... I don't remember seeing reaver doing any good when "A'd" into Hydras... I also did not see them just walking over Cliffs... ... To use the Reaver (really efficient) was actually pretty hard. To use the Colossus is easyer than using a fucking Stalker... True and that's what I'm talking about when I say I dislike the unit. But the end result was the same, you could not fight a protoss that had reaver with hydras unless you wanted to base your success on the opponents control. Hydras were the only unit that was ever used to combat reavers, actually. You simply had to flank and micro. That was possibly due to the cost and speed of the BW hydralisk, both of which are gone in SC2. That's basically why it is utterly useless late game now.
well maybe im wrong there but all I remember is losing groups of hydras to scarabs.
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i am confused by the fact that blizz is gonna give back the speed upgrade to hydra in HotS while they can make it happen in WoL now (like, RIGHT NOW).
hydra is too gas intensive imo, i'd rather get get roach or muta or infestor rather than invest the gas on this unreliable (fragile+slowass) unit. sad i know.
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On October 26 2011 13:37 Shorty90 wrote:
You're pretty much beating a dead horse. This has been discussed to death.
The problem with the hydralisk is that it doesn't have a role to fill.
It's too slow too be a harassing unit. It doesn't have enough life to take part in battles especially after aoe is out and it does not have enough range to be an artillery unit.
Edit: They also scale terrible with upgrades.
It doesn't even have enough HP to be an anti air at this point. That "Light" tag gets it killed ina hearbeat to Phoenix too, lol.
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You can't just look at speed numbers and say "it's not that slow as a unit". You aren't examining the synergy of the armies or the nature of the matchup, you're just saying "oh look 2.25 is slightly less than 3, it's not so bad".
Hydras are generally accepted as being useless vs. Terran, so I'll only examine ZvP.
In ZvP, roaches with upgrade have essentially the same speed as Stalkers - the primary unit for Protoss - meaning they can both chase and retreat as a unit. They are cheap and beefy. On the offensive, a hydra cannot chase, and if you lose the battle, all your hydras are automatically forfeit because they can't retreat. The only time your hydras will see use is if you force the issue in their base, or they willingly engage you in head-to-head battle, which means they probably have colossi. Let's examine that.
Hydralisks are supposed to fill a glass cannon role, but because 1) they are so slow and 2) they are outranged by and melted by the colossus, they cannot form a halfway decent concave, instead being burnt to crisps in small groups by colossi as they try to slither their way into firing range.
They cannot chase down a voidray off creep.
It's not a matter of "we don't use them because they aren't swarmy or zerg-esque". Give me the Colossus and remodel the model as some zerg-looking thing. Do you think we wouldn't use it because it doesn't feel "zergy"? People use / disuse units because of how good they are, not because how much they "belong" in a race.
If the colossus did not exist, then yes Hydras would not be terrible or slow, because they might get there slowly, but once they're at the battle they are formidable. But because the colossus DOES exist, and in a big way, this unit is pretty damned useless if you'll excuse my French.
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On October 27 2011 05:01 Alejandrisha wrote:
wind resistance
lol maybe this is the truth. hydras are bigger now in sc2 >_>
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On October 27 2011 05:16 DARKHYDRA wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 20:36 foxmeep wrote:On October 26 2011 16:48 DARKHYDRA wrote:On October 26 2011 16:32 BrosephBrostar wrote:
Q: What is holding the Hydralisk back?
A: Blizzard gave its role away to the roach and now they have no idea what to do with it
at least they're trying to fix it instead of trashing it like the carrier Or maybe they should trash the hydralisk and let the roach shoot air, it seems they want the roach to be this core unit in the zerg army so make it fully functional. As a broodwar player it makes me sad to see those iconic units go but the roach really has replaced the hydra with anti air being the exception. Its kinda weird but if you look at the stats the hydra is essentially an early game unit stuck in the mid game, just the fact that its compareable to marines and stalkers tells you that this unit is out of place tech-wise. On October 26 2011 16:42 Velr wrote:On October 26 2011 16:33 DARKHYDRA wrote:On October 26 2011 16:23 0neder wrote:
Basically everything boils down to the fact that Blizzard won't axe the colossus, but it ruins the game in so many ways... I personally don't like the colossus for many reasons but the reaver countered hydras just as bad really. So o don't think its entirely a colossus problem. Well... I don't remember seeing reaver doing any good when "A'd" into Hydras... I also did not see them just walking over Cliffs... ... To use the Reaver (really efficient) was actually pretty hard. To use the Colossus is easyer than using a fucking Stalker... True and that's what I'm talking about when I say I dislike the unit. But the end result was the same, you could not fight a protoss that had reaver with hydras unless you wanted to base your success on the opponents control. Hydras were the only unit that was ever used to combat reavers, actually. You simply had to flank and micro. That was possibly due to the cost and speed of the BW hydralisk, both of which are gone in SC2. That's basically why it is utterly useless late game now. well maybe im wrong there but all I remember is losing groups of hydras to scarabs.
You could scourge the shuttle and spread hydras(hydras did explosive damage and reavers were large so they did full damage) to quickly kill reavers, reavers fire very slowly.
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Really I just miss their cool acid spitting attack animation/sound effect. Now they're blowing barely visible darts at the enemy and hissing like a grouchy cat -_-. Also, they just remind me a lot more of the Naga from WC3 than the oldschool Hydra. But I find them pretty useful for defense, (especially when my macro slips) so they're not entirely useless. I am eagerly looking forward to the speed upgrade in HotS.
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On October 27 2011 05:20 BurningSera wrote:
i am confused by the fact that blizz is gonna give back the speed upgrade to hydra in HotS while they can make it happen in WoL now (like, RIGHT NOW).
hydra is too gas intensive imo, i'd rather get get roach or muta or infestor rather than invest the gas on this unreliable (fragile+slowass) unit. sad i know.
Two very good points.
It's extremely strange in general how the Hydra has been left as is for so long, and then when they wanna make a simple change to it, it only happens with an expansion?
We could easily have that upgrade added in now, in WoL, and test it out to see if it's gonna help or not. I see no reason to make us wait.
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HP is a big one and I'm sure it has been mentioned, but I feel like I would be okay using Hydra if AOE units were not such staples for other races. I don't think I've played a Terran or Protoss player that didn't get Siege Tanks, Colossi, or High Templar. And moreover I feel that if I made Hydra's it would just be more of a reason for Terran or Protoss to make more of those units. I mean thinking about it, Zerg made Hydra's in a lot of ZvZ before the Infestor became so popular.
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They suck too much (die too fast) against AoE units: Colossus, High Templar and Siege Tanks for the most part.
Cost for cost, they will also always lose to Terran Bio due to Stim and Medivacs assuming that there are no Siege Tanks. If there are Siege Tanks, then it's beyond hopeless. This is why you pretty much never see Hydras in ZvT.
Cost for cost, Hydralisks are generally okay against Protoss Gateway units (and Immortals) but will still get wrecked by good Force Fields and Blink Stalkers. Once Colossus or High Templar hit the field, Hydralisks are pretty much entirely worthless unless you have a lot of Roaches to tank for them (for a while). It's kind of sick to see how quickly Colossus will tear apart a group of Hydras. This is why most Zerg players try their best not to have to make them even when the opponent opens with Stargate.
Personally, I think they need to have more life (be more sturdy) more than they need more speed. Maybe they could try taking off its 'light' classification and adding another 10 or 20 hp.
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On October 27 2011 05:20 BurningSera wrote:
i am confused by the fact that blizz is gonna give back the speed upgrade to hydra in HotS while they can make it happen in WoL now (like, RIGHT NOW).
hydra is too gas intensive imo, i'd rather get get roach or muta or infestor rather than invest the gas on this unreliable (fragile+slowass) unit. sad i know.
Everyone here is forgetting that this Speed upgrade for the Hydra is HIVE TECH. Who the hell uses Hydras at Hive tech? I think this is one of the biggest issues. The initial thought to the speed upgrade was, "Wow, Hydras can now be microed/more efficient/and may survive battles with retreating"; but when you learn that the upgrade is at Hive tech, doesn't it just destroy its purpose all together? I don't even care about the upgrade now because the death balls and compositions I'd expect to play against at Hive tech will completely destroy my Hydralisks, continuing to make them a worthless unit.
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EPT
