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On October 27 2011 16:12 Scarmath wrote:
Fun Fact: Did you know that an unupgraded hydra has higher DPS than a fully upgraded zergling with adrenal glands? It's true. (14.45 vs 13.62)
You mean a 2 food, 50 gas, 100 mineral Unit does more damage than a 0.5 food, 25 mineral unit?
OUTSTANDING!.
Hydra in SC/BW:
Cheap, Fast, good Damage but low HP. Mainly/Only used in ZvP (and ZvT for Lurkers).
Hydra in SC2:
Expensive, slow, good Damage but low HP. Used in some timing pushes/all ins and to defend against AIr.
Where do you think Blizzard went wrong? "Everywhere" doesn't count as an answer...
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On October 27 2011 17:34 Treble557 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 17:25 taintmachine wrote:
i think hydras would have been buffed by now (speed, dps, cost, etc) if the game was only ZvT and ZvZ. however hydra compositions are very cost effective vs. protoss compositions that don't have splash dmg, so much so that protoss needs the splash dmg units to win, which means the splash dmg units better "do work" vs hydras.
*it's the same idea with marines vs splash. the hydra is much weaker but the balancing is just the same. i dunno if terran would ever lose if Z and P couldn't faceroll marines with banelings, storm, and colo. imo it's not the best or only way they could balance these units out but it seems to be how they did it Phoenix/Zealot isn't aoe and it destroys Hydras like they're nothing.
i personally haven't seen enough of it and also said hydra compositions, not pure hydras, so i don't know if you were implying that a Z is going to lose vs. this with pure hydras or also having other tech.
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On October 27 2011 17:41 taintmachine wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 17:34 Treble557 wrote:On October 27 2011 17:25 taintmachine wrote:
i think hydras would have been buffed by now (speed, dps, cost, etc) if the game was only ZvT and ZvZ. however hydra compositions are very cost effective vs. protoss compositions that don't have splash dmg, so much so that protoss needs the splash dmg units to win, which means the splash dmg units better "do work" vs hydras.
*it's the same idea with marines vs splash. the hydra is much weaker but the balancing is just the same. i dunno if terran would ever lose if Z and P couldn't faceroll marines with banelings, storm, and colo. imo it's not the best or only way they could balance these units out but it seems to be how they did it Phoenix/Zealot isn't aoe and it destroys Hydras like they're nothing. i personally haven't seen enough of it and also said hydra compositions, not pure hydras, so i don't know if you were implying that a Z is going to lose vs. this with pure hydras or also having other tech.
Z loses with Hydra + anything and with pure hydras to this combo due to the nature of the strat in general, lol. I actually see it fairly often too btw up in masters.
Pretty baller build.
You pretty much need Roach Corruptor to beat it.
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I dont think the Speed is holding the Hydra back ... Its only one Factor ... If we go along that road and compare the units than why does a Hydra cost 100/50 and a Marine only 50/0 and they both have the same speed (and marines even got Stim)? ... this is why the comparison between the units dont work and shouldnt be done.
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Their waaay too squishy, and they're even considered light units therefore the reason why you don't go Hydra on mechplay as mentioned. For their cost, they're not worth it.
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hydra is a bad unit cause it does extremely high damage but has the drawback of having only 80 hp and moderately costy.
SC1 hydras were 75/25/1 and did 10 to large and 5 to small
SC2 hydras are 100/50/2 and do 13 damage to all
They got a very powerful buff (especially against zealots who would take 4 damage previously) in damage but their hp remained the same.
Giving them more hp just makes them a brainless OP unit. Making em cheaper and weaker to light makes them swarmy like the old unit, admittedly still rather brainless and spammy.
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I didn't read too much of this but, what would happen if Hydra's had a non-projectile attack? Like the instantaneous attack marines and siege tanks have? I guess it would increase damage and effectiveness for that specific role (no overkill) but doesn't massively alter their function or lack of =[
I realize I am discussing a significantly different point to the OP but I don't think the speed is a non issue...
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Well I think they should decrease the damage and make the hydra faster and cheaper so it feels more like a zerg unit. Problem is it costs so much and gets absolutely smashed by tanks and colossus. Tanks and marines make them very bad in ZvT but they are great in ZvP . . . untill colossus or HT come out.
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You compare it to the roach, but by the time you have hydras you probably also have roach speed if you use roaches, making them much faster, tankier, more micro-able and cheaper unit, with more utility due to burrow regen and movement.
The speed isn't the sole reason for them being unused - Something like a thor can justify its speed due to its long range against air, among other slow units such as siege tanks and unstimmed MMM. High templar destroy armies and then morph to powerful and more mobile archons. Hydras? They are just marines that cost gas, in a race that needs to save every last scrap of gas in the mid game. They don't pack enough punch to justify the fact they have no escape mechanism to get away from stalkers blinking on them or marines stimming forward and taking them out.
And then there is the whole AoE attacks (cough collosi) are already pretty strong without taking a low hp, low mobility, small sized unit to the field.
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The hydra is immobile, cannot tank damage, and has a high supply cost relative to its usefulness.
I did some tests of the hydra vs. the stalker (best analog) about a year ago and posted them here:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/628078733
Basically the hydralisk is terrible unless it is both on creep and you have the range upgrade. It wont be a go-to unit until the speed buff in HOTS.
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No, it's not slow when you compare it to units with completely different roles in different races. In the context of the zerg race as a whole, it is rather slow. This only becomes a problem when it is also expensive and very low hp compared to its nearest vs-ground substitute (the roach). Yes, it has good dps, but it just isn't good enough to make up for its shortcomings in most situations.
I think a straight up stat boost could easily make it overpowered as a timing attack unit, though. I've always thought a hive tech upgrade that gives it increased range or speed would be best.
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EPT
