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On October 27 2011 04:08 Jerubaal wrote:
Did it ever occur to you that the reason why hydras cost 1 increment above a trivial amount of gas is that you're not supposed to have a ton of mutas, infestors, banelings and hydras all at once?
which brings up another point. Why should we get hydras when we can get those other *better* units.
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I can't believe I'm the first to mention this:
Overkill
For Hydras to truly be the DPS-Marine equivalent of Zerg, they need to not have overkill just like the Marine. Every single Marine shot ever fired in retail SC2 has been a guaranteed hit. Hydras, in large packs, will sometimes use 8 shots to kill something that dies in 5. Marines never do this. Marines will use 5 shots to kill something that needs 5 shots - period. The other Marines will attack something else, while the extra Hydras will have to wait for cooldown since they wasted their shots.
Even if Hydras had Overkill removed and Marines had it added (boy, that would seem strange), Marines would still probably win per cost, but that's not what I'm trying to do. For being Tier 2.5 DPS Glass Cannons, it is disappointing that a Tier 1 Marine has no overkill but a Hydra does. Weird. The Roach currently has a ton of overkill, but seeing as its role is cheap Tank, this is acceptable. The role of Hydra is DPS Glass Cannon, and Overkill severely limits its actual DPS.
Overkill / No Smart fire, in case you are not clear, means that the Hydra has a delay between the start of the attack animation and the actual damage (movable projectile). So while one Hydra spine is one frame away from hitting and killing a target, 6 other Hydras can begin firing and completely waste their shots. Marines are all instant and do not waste shots - ever.
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Cons
1. Low HP
2. Slow off creep, cannot retreat
Pros
1. high dps
2. cheap as hell to make
But seriously, why would you mass/make a unit that has no HP?
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The only thing that has ever held the Hydralisk back is great creep spread.
The difference in speed from ling/roach to hydralisk makes it somewhat more difficult to control your army, thus makign it less popular as well.
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It's too fragile a unit for its gas cost, and too slow off creep to micro at all. I like the idea that Blizz wants a speed upgrade for it in HOTS, but we still wont see the hydra really made much until hive tech, which effectively makes it a tier 3 unit...if a player is bold enough to make them. Sure, we'll see nydus usage with it before hive and also for some defensive pushes, but you get the point.
Now, you give the hydra the speed upgrade at lair, we'll see a lot more of it....like, ALOT.
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On October 26 2011 16:17 Pwere wrote:
By the time you get to hive tech, they get hard countered so bad you might want to destroy your own hydra den to make sure you don't spawn one by mistake.
That pretty much made my day.
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i have a question a bout the hydra.
i never played Bw mp
but I've seen a few games and i never saw hydras except in zvp
and in zvt but only for lurker
and zvz was always ling muta or just lings
was that a coincidence?
so from what i saw hydra was used only in zvp offensive
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On October 27 2011 04:22 LanTAs wrote:
Cons
1. Low HP
2. Slow off creep, cannot retreat
Pros
1. high dps
2. cheap as hell to make
But seriously, why would you mass/make a unit that has no HP?
Hydras are not cheap
50 gas is asking for alot for what the do. which isn't much
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On October 26 2011 13:46 Soulish wrote:
this has so many strawmen that you could be a farmer
I laughed for about 30 seconds after reading this
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why make hydras when you can make roaches?
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On October 27 2011 04:30 Cuiu wrote:
i have a question a bout the hydra.
i never played Bw mp
but I've seen a few games and i never saw hydras except in zvp
and in zvt but only for lurker
and zvz was always ling muta or just lings
was that a coincidence?
so from what i saw hydra was used only in zvp offensive
TvZ in BW had two major styles - Bio and Mech. Pure Mech (no Marines) meant the Zerg would mass Hydras. Bio often transitions into Mech after long games that use the whole map, but otherwise starting pure Mech is rare (unless you are iloveoov or Fantasy) and so Hydras aren't always seen in TvZ.
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On October 27 2011 04:23 PhiliBiRD wrote:
The only thing that has ever held the Hydralisk back is great creep spread.
The difference in speed from ling/roach to hydralisk makes it somewhat more difficult to control your army, thus makign it less popular as well.
Well that's easy to say isn't it?
1) No matter how well you spread, there is a boundary you can't pass
2) Even great creep spread takes a while
3) Decent opponents kill creep
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The issue with the hydra is that when it is good (vs. gateway units for example) it is game ending good and when it is bad (15 hydras vs 4 colossus) it is game ending awful. This makes the unit near impossible to balance. A slight improvement to the hydra right now would destroy PvZ and any nerf at all would make them near useless. Pulling them out of their small niche role would require a complete rework.
This is actually a pretty common design flaw in SC2.
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On October 27 2011 04:30 Cuiu wrote:
i have a question a bout the hydra.
i never played Bw mp
but I've seen a few games and i never saw hydras except in zvp
and in zvt but only for lurker
and zvz was always ling muta or just lings
was that a coincidence?
so from what i saw hydra was used only in zvp offensive
Pretty much right. The hydra was rarely used then, but because of other reasons. The did explosive damage, which was fine against protoss with the shields of Zealots taking full damage from explosive, but explosive damage meant their damage against zerglings, mutalisks and marines were halved, this was especially bad against marines, even a group of hydras can´t kill a marine if it has medic support. They were fast, though, before zealot speed you could stutter-step hydras to kill zealots.
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On October 27 2011 04:33 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 04:23 PhiliBiRD wrote:
The only thing that has ever held the Hydralisk back is great creep spread.
The difference in speed from ling/roach to hydralisk makes it somewhat more difficult to control your army, thus makign it less popular as well. Well that's easy to say isn't it? 1) No matter how well you spread, there is a boundary you can't pass 2) Even great creep spread takes a while 3) Decent opponents kill creep
Yes.
And also every single terran unit counters the hydra.
Protoss counters hydra so bad with collosus. I mean it's disgustingly bad. You can't even overcome it with micro as hydras are too clunky and slow.
hydras are just bad in this game
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Hydras are not usable for many of the reasons iterated in this thread. I hope HotS redesigns it, because I actually really like the unit 
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Hydralisks are too late in tech to be useful.
Because of their weakness to colossi and storm and such the unit just doesn't have a real place in zvp anymore. In ZvT they are like the retarded cousin of the marine, the marine just annihilates them, same with hellions, and tanks. I suggest channging the hydralisk back to bw status:
1f
75/25
7 damage
.86 atk
70 health
requires spawning pool
lair upgrade for speed and range
30% movement increase on creep.
and switch the roach to lair tech and have it be a defense oriented unit with low normal attack (like 8) and + damage to light (+4) with higher health and high armor. I would be blizz's biggest fan if they did anything close to this.
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On October 27 2011 04:33 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 04:23 PhiliBiRD wrote:
The only thing that has ever held the Hydralisk back is great creep spread.
The difference in speed from ling/roach to hydralisk makes it somewhat more difficult to control your army, thus makign it less popular as well. Well that's easy to say isn't it? 1) No matter how well you spread, there is a boundary you can't pass 2) Even great creep spread takes a while 3) Decent opponents kill creep
T.T All my hard work.... is what I keep on thinking when people kill the creep =_=
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On October 27 2011 04:22 LanTAs wrote:
Cons
1. Low HP
2. Slow off creep, cannot retreat
Pros
1. high dps
2. cheap as hell to make
But seriously, why would you mass/make a unit that has no HP?
hydra at 100minerals 50 gas 2supply is cheap as hell to mass produce? what? what?? this is a zerg unit not a protoss unit.
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The hydra will get slightly better when pros get better at creep spread. Even pros almost always have a ton of idle overlords when past lair tech that could be making creep.
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EPT
