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VirgilSC2, you actually just proved that Hydralisk is indeed slow. By comparing hydralisk's speed to other units, you showed that hydra is one of the slowest zerg units, and average compared to other races.
What you failed to account is that while T and P have other values to bring in addition to that average speed, be it splash, space control, high defense, or spells, zerg relies mainly on speed, damage and numbers. In retreats there's no forcefields, blink, stim or some sieged tanks behind to run away, there's only speed, and if a unit doesn't have it means it's gonna die, and in the case of hydras, rather quickly. That's why hydras despite being average speed compared to other races, are considered slow (+ fragile + you can't mass them as well as lings or roaches due to their gas cost and low HP) in respect to how zerg works.
/end thread
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They fill a niche roll that is being good anti-air. But it pretty much stops right there because if the opponent doesn't go air, he probably goes colossi (P) or siege tanks, marines (T) against which the hydra is utterly useless. The slow movement and the general fragility of the unit makes it useless when the opponent has units that attack from far (tanks, lance colossi) and it's dps just isn't good enough to deal with marine balls to make it cost efficient.
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On October 26 2011 20:45 justinpal wrote:... Edit: Someone should seriously do a health to speed ratio to dps of these units. Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 20:39 NeWnAr wrote:
Excusez moi, but have u not realized that every single one of those units u say are as slow as if not slower than Hydras can completely rape them equal-cost, with all unit-specific upgrades. Hydras are 100mins 50gas.
3 roaches vs 4 hydras. GG.
2 marines vs 1 hydra. GG?
1 marauder vs 2 hydra. GG!!!!!!!!!!!!111!
2 Siege tanks vs 300 hydras. GG.
1 Thor vs 8 hydras. GG.
2 zealots vs 4 hydra. GG.
1 HT vs 100 hydras. Storm. GG.
1 ghost vs 15 hydras. Snipe. GG.
Fixed that for you.
LOL 1 HT vs 100 Hydras. WE CANNOT HOLD!
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On October 26 2011 13:26 rift wrote:
HotS speed upgrade off creep = probably rebalanced, maybe less damage. It'd allow for / demand more micro. An HP nerf would probably be unreasonable considering how low it is already.
then you will basically have a roach that shoots air as well..
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You're asking the wrong question. Why would anyone use Hydras?
What are hydras supposed to be? A high DPS unit that complements roaches or sometimes zerglings. They are also an anti-air.
What did the infestor become after the patch? Exactly the same thing, except it's 10 times better at it and doesn't have the glaring flaws of the hydra.
The thing you need to understand is that hydras are not only hard countered by collossi (among other things), they are rendered completely useless. It's as far as I can tell the only unit that is hard countered this way. The other units can be countered, but they can still be microed, or used in compositions that make them strong regardeless.
If vipers rape collossi as much as they look, hydras could become more viable late game ZvP, giving a faster alternative to the infestor. But other than that I don't see it being used so much.
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My main issue is that you can't retreat with them - offcreep - ever. If you have a mixed army of roach hydra, you either win or all hydras die. This will change in HotS with the speed upgrade. I think they will be fine as high damge, low survivability alternative to the roach then.
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ZvZ:
+ Show Spoiler +
hydralisks are a good supplement to a big roach army, but a roach-infestor composition is more versatile, stronger in combat, and can force engagements, roach hydra cannot.
hence hydralisks are rarely used in ZvZ.
ZvT:
+ Show Spoiler +
hydralisk are worse or equal to marines in every stat (by cost) except for range, but the range requires an upgrade to be greater, and marines are built by every terran every day and it is not difficult for them to build some more if they see the zerg building hydralisks, so regardless of what composition you use together with hydralisks, the terran will simply use a composition of <whatever they would use to fight the rest of your army> + marines.
hence hydralisks are rarely used in ZvT
ZvP:
+ Show Spoiler +
storm or colossus or archons slaughters hydralisks
but oh wait, why isnt it the same with terran bio? terran bio have the same attributes as hydralisks: glasscannons with movement speed 2.25, yet terran bio handles storm and AoE better than hydralisks do.
oh right, by the time storm is finished terran bio won't be 2.25, as soon as the engagement begins they will be 3.375, giving them 3 things:
1. ability to retreat
2. ability to force engagement
3. ability to minimize storm damage
the hydralisk, with its 2.25, cannot minimize storm damage, a group of them will almost always die to 2 storms.
the hydralisk, with its 2.25, cannot retreat from the protoss stalkers and speedlots (if there are any)
the hydralisk, with its 2.25, cannot force engagements, however, they can if they are accompanied by something faster, where we have 2 options: either roaches or zerglings, but zerglings will die to AOE just as much as the hydralisk will, so that leaves roaches, and everyone knows roaches suck once you are past early-game.
hence hydralisks are rarely used in ZvP
hence hydralisks are rarely used.
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Just look at the stats : the hydra is a unit with low hp and high dps. What units share this ?
-The marine. But marines are cheap, easy to mass and BEAT HYDRAS FOR MINERAL-ONLY COST. Overall they're just better, cheaper and less techy.
-Dts/Banshees. But they are harass units, mobile (2.81 speed/flying respectively) and cloaked.
-Hellions (versus light). But this is another harass unit, and how often do you see them used in straight-up fights ?
-Zerglings : Same as rines, but with the possibility of harass too.
To put it in a nutshell : Hydras are not massable due to their cost, and like every low hp high dps unit, is good mostly against buildings and workers, because they can't shoot back. But zerglings are just better in drops and runbys. (ever tried to make a hydra runby ? lol) They fill only one niche : anti-air defense, where queens are, in my opinion, just better, for the same reson as the marine.
They have no role. Either they :
-Become cost effective (marine, ling)
-Become a harass unit (Dt, banshee), but zerg has already the most harass options (infestor, lings, burrow banes in HoTS, mutas, burrow roaches)
Or disappear.
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The Man is holding it back!
On a more serious note, it is the mobility, the unit is simply so slow that there is no retreat, fight-another-day type thing, you either win the battle or lose every single one of them. Roaches, Stalkers, Lings, Marines, Marauders and even Zealots can all run away.
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You have flooded OP with nonsence... Those number of yours have been put there randomly without any particular reason.
You only take to account the speed of a unit.
You also have to count the firing range, reaction time of a player and those two with speed combined create so much math that your head would explode.
All in all, thanks for the hard work you've put on writing this, but you failed. Hydras ssux because they're slow.
Imagine this:
if you surround a group of marines with zerglings, and you realize you can't win the fight, what do you do? You run and save the zerglings.
If you have roach vs stalker fight and you see your roaches losing slightly, whad do you do? You burrow roaches or escape the fight with minimal losses.
But what do you do in those situations with hydras? YOU LOSE THEM ALL BECAUSE THEY ARE SLOW OFF CREEP!
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You compare marines to hydras and claim marines are a very mobile unit at 2.25?
No they are not. Stimmed marines are.
Zerg is all about speed. Look how much more effective they are on creep.
A 2.25 hydra is a slow unit to the zerg because the whole army cant move in synergy to flank, etc.
They say that speed upgrade for hydra will be T3 in HoTS. Why? That is actually terrible. Late game switch to hydra? I don't know, sounds awful to me but I'll take it. What choice do I have.
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Sorry but this thread is one large logical fallacy. Also, there are plenty of other factors contributing to why hydras suck. One member of TL performed a test on hydras -- he pit 20 marines against 20 hydras, where all hydras were given exactly the same stats and unit size as marines. Essentially, it was marines vs. marines, with one set of marines shooting projectiles, while the other set (actual marines) fired their normal "instant impact" bullets. Needless to say, the true marines raped the shit out of the modified marine-hydras, thus proving that projectile fire confers a severe disadvantage when it is the ONLY variable at play. So, one might say hydra projectile fire contributes to the problem, along with unit size, along with other issues...and perhaps speed is ONE of these issues. Now, when the balance man comes along, he isn't going to address ALL of these complaints! He can't do that. What he can do is take ONE complaint and address it. Or, he can at least take one at a time before doing anything too drastic to a unit. In this case, perhaps unit speed was considered to be a less severe alteration than unit size, projectile/non-projectile fire, etc.
Think outside the box -- and definitely do not make simple comparisons such as "hydras are same speed as marines, marines are fine, thus hydras are fine". That is a terribleeeeee logical fallacy. It's just like the good ol' "2 lings beats 1 rine omg wtfbbq ling imba" fallacy. You can't compare apples to oranges using one variable as your metric! It's utterly nonsensical! Terran marines work at their speed (as do thors) because it works for the overall dynamic of TERRAN! But guess what? In no logical way shape or form does that necessitate that hydras are fine simple because they share a terran unit's speed. The hydra has been EMPIRICALLY deemed "not fine", and as I've said speed has in fact been one of the most obvious issues among users of hydras.
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Hydra's are quite expensive tbh with their range upgrade 150/150 and the 100/50 cost. Sinking larva and lots of minerals into them leaves you with a immobile, fragile and extremely difficult to micro [off of creep, ever tried splitting hydra's v tanks, collosi, storm or fungal? They move too fucking slow to spread them, kite or get a nice concave.] This leaves Hydra's as almost exclusively defensive options without a) creep highway with preferably close spawns or b) ovie speed and drop c) nydus. All of these except creep highway uses a lot of gas, making all transitions out of the mid-game considerably later.
The speed issue off of creep in WoL has perhaps been the biggest reason hydras are considered useless as an attacking force besides ZvZ. Hydra's off of creep cannot retreat from the battle. Roaches, infestors, mutas, banelings and lingcan all retreat from an engagement should it initially fare poorly. Roach infestor can cloak and retreat with burrow move, muta, lings and banelings have sufficient speed to retreat. Hydra's do not have that luxury. When you engage with Hydras, you must be sure to win the engagement or else you just lose everything. All other zerg units can retreat away while the sad hydra gets chased down by blink stalker, stim bio, etc.
Hydras are also not the best for transitioning in the mid-game to the late game. Besides being mineral heavy, gas heavy and larva heavy, they take precious gas away from the Spire, Infestor or hive transitions.
tldr: With the exception of ZvZ, or vT vP late game (ultra hydra ling/bling, infestor, hydra BL infestor) they are took fragile in their current WoL state. Weak hp to min/gas cost, low speed [no retreating, no ability to spread to mitigate AoE off of creep while off creep] a high min/gas cost [especially in comparison to roach] and a high larva use. Really only support units, where 10-18 of them vP or vZ is useful to out-dps the other ranged ball behind some sort of tanking unit (ultra, roach, broodlings from BL, etc).
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The OP clearly doesn't play zerg and have little to no understanding of the zerg race. I won't add anything as so many others have proven you wrong in all accords.
That aside, In my opinion hydra is a badly designed unit that will never be used even with the speed buff. After all, other units will be added/buffed and the only hope for the hydra is a nerf to roach. That will never happen. I just can't see any use for the hydra (aside from it's anti-stargate function, only because it's the only anti-air we have....) as it's fundamentally under powered.
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On October 26 2011 19:31 gh0un wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 19:12 eYeball wrote:On October 26 2011 13:37 Camlito wrote:
Marines can Stim, Stalkers can Blink, Hydras get a speed boost on creep. Stim/blink is good defensively or offensively, whereas you can't have the hydras abuse their bonus anywhere except defensively (unless you have insane creep spread and it't not stopped) and being a glass cannon, i wouldn't use a hydra for defence Thing is marines require some micro with stim and stutter step, blink requires micro but hydralisk is just a move... This post is so ignorant i cant even begin to grasp it. Blink is just pressing b, stimming marines is pressing t, stutter stepping (doesnt matter which unit) is moving and pressing s (repeat all over). Thats not some crazy micro, its basic army movement. Its the most basic army movement there is, akin to a move. But alright, lets say you have a point and it would be unfair if hydras were faster by just a moving them. I would gladly take a stimmable hydra that i have to stutter step, or a blinkable hydra that i have to blink, if in return they were as fast as marines or stalkers. Unfortunately thats not the case, so we dont build them. Your post has no point at all.
I was just stating the way it is now in the game, no need to be offended or confused. I wouldn't mind if Hydra got something so they could require a bit more micro and multitask, however this has nothing to do with any of this. Hydras are what they are.
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The problem with the Hydra is that it's basically a Zerg Stalker. Similar cost, similar effectiveness. Both units are pretty bad for their cost in direct engagements (Hydra only beats a Stalker or marauder for cost on the ground, Stalker beats nothing), but are flexible, tough and mobile...wait a minute...
You see the Stalker is used because there's no other ranged units available to Protoss (their equivalent to the roach or marauder is the duper-expensive, specific tech Immortal). It's tough and quick too, so it can retreat. The Hydra is very quick defensively, aka on creep (much faster than a Stalker), but it can't retreat from an offensive and can't be used to poke about the map like a stalker (especially with blink) can.
If Zerg had to slowly build up units while fending of drops instead of using their uber-fast units to pressure their opponent, secure map control and expand everywhere, then Hydras would be built. Because they seemed designed to be extremely good defensive units that are too slow to be used on the offence.
The other big problem is that they lose a TON of DPS if they are dragoon-danced because they move slowly off creep and fire very quickly. They are the ultimate a-move unit, that unfortunately loses to just about any other unit you'd care to name  .
EDIT: Zerg doesn't build Hydras because all of their other units are better, 99% of the time .
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I find the biggest problem with the hydralisk is the fact that it is the only vanilla unit in starcraft 2. What role does the hydralisk fill in the zerg army. Its a ranged ground/air attacker. What upgrade does it have? +1 range +damage +armor. The Hydralisk needs something to make it special. I propose a addition to the +1 ranged upgrade. Make the upgrade give hydralisk an auto attack that causes enemy units behind its target (like 1.5 additional range) to take the same amount of damage.
Just an idea to make hydra viable and I think it would be a flavorful upgrade.
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The Hydralisk is as "fast" as a zealot >.>
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despite what everyone said in the first page , you're still pretty ignorant abt it huh.
i'm not willing to spend 100 minerals 50 gas for a fragile unit, yes they have high dps, but they die almost instantly. roaches are better investment because they have a higher survival rate, and they deal more dmg when micro'ed. hydras back in bw were awesome becoz the speed makes them being' micro'able, and also not forgetting the +1 supply, which also means they're massable and very good vs terran mech builds. having sc2 hydras vs mech is simply not worth it.
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Part of the problem is that hydras is that they are relatively weak and expensive. They are more expensive that roaches, yet have only slightly more than half the HP. Ultimately they are a support unit that adds dps to the zerg ball, but very vulnerable. The fact that they are much slower than their counterparts the zergling and the roach means that while moving off-creep, hydras become separated from the pack and can be easily picked off. What might make the hydra more viable might be a hive-tech research that could increase their HP, at least to over 100, similar to the marine's combat shield.
Another possibility is in 2v2s. The hydra generally suffers from a lack of mobility and health, yet enjoys high dps. Could the hydra enjoy a strong synergy with the medivac? The medivac would provide the hydra with mobility and healing. Any thoughts?
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EPT
