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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
Generally, if a unit moves at 2.25 or slower, it has some sort of major benefit in combat. siege tanks and colossi have 13 and 9 range. casters cast spells. The closest unit to the hydralisk in lack of overwhelming awesome is the Immortal, which I think could use another +1 range to make up for its slow speed, but others might cry over it... | ||
GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
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me_viet
Australia1350 Posts
On October 26 2011 14:11 Exyia wrote: I think the Hydra is weak in the same sense that the Carrier is weak it's almost a 100% BW port, but there are so many more units/dynamics in SC2, it's as if the hydra/carrier missed the beta test with the NEW SC2 units because they were assumed "balanced from BW" Carriers are still great dps, but with the introduction of the Viking/Corruptor, and no adaptation to the Carrier, it's rendered very cost in-efficient. As well as the strengths of the new roach and marauder, making Protoss in need of AoE tech. The Carrier is simply there for a role from BW that doesn't exist anymore in SC2 Same concept with the Hydra - a high (somewhat burst) dps, but with Marine balls protected by Marauders at the front, the higher attack speed of the Marine, smart tank-fire, and still having a high cost relative to BW, it's in a niche that rarely opens in SC2 NO. no just no.. The sc2 Hydra is COMPLETELY different to the bw hydras. The similarity ends with them being called 'hydra'. +They evolved backwards when going over to sc2. +Losing ability to morph to lurkers, +Taking more effort for the overmind to control. +Slower. +Bigger target. +Clumps too much. +Takes more effort to produce | ||
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Soulish
Canada1403 Posts
On October 26 2011 14:07 foxmeep wrote: See, the thing about Damage Per Second... it actually requires the unit to live longer than 1 second to deal it. sums up the situation nicely | ||
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TUski
United States1258 Posts
On October 26 2011 14:15 me_viet wrote: NO. no just no.. The sc2 Hydra is COMPLETELY different to the bw hydras. The similarity ends with them being called 'hydra'. +They evolved backwards when going over to sc2. +Losing ability to morph to lurkers, +Taking more effort for the overmind to control. +Slower. +Bigger target. +Clumps too much. +Takes more effort to produce This. Not only does it cost an additional 25/25 to create, they cost double supply, require lair tech to make, and move almost as fast as a snail on dry ground. | ||
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[GiTM]-Ace
United States4935 Posts
 I have a weird feeling though if they weren't lair tech and had speed upgrade that it would break the game somehow. | ||
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Azzur
Australia6260 Posts
Hydras need to be faster because during a battle, fast hydras are able to more quickly get into position to be able to deal damage. If you don't believe me on this, try a 20 hydra vs 20 hydra simulation - where 1 side has speed and the other side doesn't. Because of speed boosts, marines and zealots (who have charge later on, and are quite weak without) don't have this drawback. Secondly, you don't understand how zergs fight during battles. Since their army is generally less cost effective (or more accurately, supply ineffective), zergs rely on a constant stream of reinforcements to be able to break a front. Terrans don't generally have this (they can entrench a position) or they can even stim to be able to reinforce quickly. Protoss have warp-ins to deal with this. Lastly, there is a general consensus amongst pro-players that hydras are too slow off-creep. That alone would be enough evidence already. The hydra speed upgrade will go a long way of making them more viable. | ||
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xuanzue
Colombia1747 Posts
The Marine doesn't seem like a slow unit does it? Even without Stimpack, the Marine is a very versatile and effective unit marines doesn't cost gas, and have insta-shot, thats the reason why they are so versatile. | ||
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
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RogerChillingworth
Chad3131 Posts
edit: and, yes, ^ agreed with 0neder completely. the lack of a 1 food unit for zerg is really silly, and even messes with how larva works. | ||
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Ksi
357 Posts
tl,dr: It's a relic unit shoehorned into the game, and not even shoehorned very well at that. It has a very forced niche in the Zerg army, and doesn't even fulfill that niche well. | ||
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Torpedo.Vegas
United States1890 Posts
A: Creep Spread | ||
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Smigi
United States328 Posts
Zerg is based on engaging the army on your terms with easy re-positioning, being able to do hit and run attacks, and to counter attack the enemy. The hydralisk does not keep up with any of the three just listed. Which is why you do NOT see the hydralisk being used. If zerg was a deathball race, with A+click, then your comparisons to terran and protoss would be valid. However, that isn't the case. The Hydralisk is slow with high dps, which already breaks the zerg principles. But lets put that to the side shall we? Fine, its a glass cannon, weak with high attack. However, glass cannons must have mechanisms or traits that prevent them from being killed too easily. Example, colossus is a glass cannon. Its trait/mechanism is its 9 range to stay far from enemy units. The Hydralisk, doesn't have speed, doesn't have range, doesn't have a spell or ability, doesn't have cloak, its not a flying unit, it frankly.. doesn't have any means of keeping itself alive. /thread | ||
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TutsiRebel
United States172 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On October 26 2011 13:40 fdsdfg wrote: Um... this is a misguided topic. "What is holding the hydralisk back"? A lot of things. Its low HP, its inability to exist with colossi on the field, its terrible benefit from upgrades, and it's speed. The OP is just 'compared to slow units from other races, the hydralisk isn't much different!' I know. It still sucks past the 12 minute mark. The worst thing about them IMO is the upgrades. With each +1 attack, Hydra goes from: +0: 12 +1: 13 +2: 14 +3: 15 Meanwhile the Roach gets +0: 16 +1: 18 +2: 20 +3: 22 The Zergling +0: 5 +1: 6 +2: 7 +3: 8 It's awful. +3 hydra does 25% more damage than +0, compared to 37/60% more from these other two units respectively. That and their role in the metagame is very dumb. ZvT I've very rarely seen hydras used, but I have also never tried it very much so I can't say much about it. I've used hydras in a lategame army after I've economically won, but that isn't saying much ZvP hydras have a very weird role. Hydras are good against every opening. Hydras are great against phoenix/voidray, immortal/warp prism, and blink stalkers. With a pure gateway build, hydras are great against every unit. Hydras are not bossed around well by forcefields. However, robo and templar tech grow up to get colossi and psi storm, both of which completely nullify Hydralisks. Once air units get too numerous, hydras can't attack effectively since they bump into each other, so they don't work against late game starport play either. Hydras can be the damage dealers when they first come out, but they cannot sustain their role in an army for long. I go hydras often just so I can tech switch to something else once they respond, and they can be good before they respond - but they're just too easy to nullify. Just to point out, the hydra attacks much faster than roaches, so the upgrade scaling isn't quite so easy to pin down. They attack more than twice as fast as a roach, so they scale BETTER with attack upgrades than the roach does (+1.2 dps per attack upgrade vs. +1 dps per attack upgrade of the roach). Yeah, zerglings do scale better than hydras. | ||
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quen
201 Posts
Speed? Cost? Durability? Or likely, a combination of some or all three of those? Poor Hydra ;_; | ||
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Alpino
Brazil4390 Posts
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SigmaoctanusIV
United States3313 Posts
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
1) maps were TRULY wide open 2) hydras had their insane oncreep speed even off-creep now when i say that, i really think hydras would be pretty much overpowered if all of that was true. thats right, overpowered. now lets look at this objectively. I do believe the maps are terrible however there is one map out there in the pool that i believe is truly "open", and thats taldar arim. most terrans and protosses veto this map however i believe this map is actually how maps "should be". i believe terrans and protosses that hate this map against zerg really just are actually finally getting to fight zerg on even terms with a actual balanced map taldar arim is very open. if the enemy is in the middle of the field you can easily flank his army with speedroach/speedling and hit his army from 2 or 3 sides. even if he is sieged or has forcefields normally theres enough room to win the battle if you are on equal terms i honestly believe if speed hydras were thrown into that equation it would be even more ridiculously powerful for the zerg. but thats not how it is in reality because hydras are SLOW AS BALLS off creep. currently in the game, if a zerg could magically have 10000000000000 apm and spread creep like a champ, realistically if you look at the math of it it would take a zerg maybe 4 minutes with 1 extra queen to actually spread creep across the ENTIRE MAP of taldar arim (or the entire center) imagine that, if zerg could spread creep across the entire taldar arim map and have this done by 8-9 minutes (assuming you get 1 extra tumor queen at 5 minutes gametime) that would be super overpowered, but it also would take 99999999 apm, which zergs just dont have. so creep spreading given human limitations can only happen so fast. if creep-spreading was somehow automated and tumors automatically casted themselves that would surely be overpowered and every game would see the zerg filling the entire map with creep in a couple minutes with 1 extra queen. however my point here is this, hydras are being held back because they NEED TO BE SLOW off creep to stop this ridiculous overpowered scenario from happening which i explained above (about the speedroach/speedling/hydra flanks) however also i will say that the overpowered scenario would only be true on taldar arim. on a map like metalopalis or zelnaga caverns, even with fast speed hydras would be underpowered. but thats more to do with the fact that MOST MAPS in the map-pool are biased against zerg and make zerg a little underpowered | ||
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HaXXspetten
Sweden15718 Posts
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