|
On October 26 2011 09:15 Lazerlike42 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:12 petro1987 wrote:On October 26 2011 09:03 DoubleReed wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder.
I was not aware that protoss are dominating outside of korea. I actually thought things were pretty even outside of korea. If by even you mean that Jinro, Thorzain and the occasional foreigner T are being bashed by good foreigner Ps (Mana, Sase, etc.), then yeah, it's completely even. Look at all the recent tournament results, check the NASL standings, etc.,... Terran is starting to have problems with Protoss. Even without this patch,I do not think there will many Terrans succeeding in tournaments moving forward. Terran has started to be nerfed, and at the same time Protoss players have started to figure out how to play stronger games.
o.o Are you kidding?
Come on now. GSL >>> NASL as far as gameplay goes. You need to watch some Code S Code T, my friend.
But then again, you won't see many Protoss struggling against Terrans there, either. Why?
+ Show Spoiler +Because there are barely any Protoss players in the best league in the entire world.
Out of curiosity, do you honestly think that the ghost didn't need to be nerfed at all? From what I've read on this thread, the overwhelming response is "Well, that's a start..."
|
On October 26 2011 09:13 unsaintly wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:12 petro1987 wrote:On October 26 2011 09:03 DoubleReed wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder.
I was not aware that protoss are dominating outside of korea. I actually thought things were pretty even outside of korea. If by even you mean that Jinro, Thorzain and the occasional foreigner T are being bashed by good foreigner Ps (Mana, Sase, etc.), then yeah, it's completely even. Than lets turn it around. What are Terrans saying all the time? We got the better players man.
Which race has a lot of players who are infamous for playing very slow? HMMMM
Or the race with the most players mooted as working extremely hard.
If foreign Ts were anywhere near up to scruff we would be seeing more realistic results across the board.
edit: Could swear there was some Korean Toss QQ about how +1 terran weapons equals +3...
|
On October 26 2011 09:19 NuKedUFirst wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:18 rpgalon wrote:
ghosts and templars
1- ghosts have more hp (it is fucking hard to snipe it with blink stalker or colossus before the emp)
2- ghosts have more movement speed (templars speed = battlecruiser speed)
3- ghosts can cloak
4- ghosts have more range with EMP (3 more "efective range" than feedback)
5- ghosts are not light or armored (like templars or infestors) they take extra damage only to archon
6- ghosts can fight back 10/+10 vs light
7- ghosts can be upgraded to start with 75 energy
8- ghosts takes 40s to build ( templar takes 5s + 44.4s to get energy = 49,4s and delay the warpgate by 45s)
9- ghosts don't need to research EMP, (storm cost 200/200 and takes 110s to research)
10-ghosts are unlocked with a tech lab (50/25/25s) + ghost academy (150/50/40s)= 200/75/65s, while templars "with no storm" you need twilight concil (150/100/50s) + templar archives (150/200/60s)= 300/300/110s; with storm is 500/500/220s
11-ghosts have 1 more sight range
EMP and Storm
1- EMP reveals cloack, storm does not
2- EMP can be used to remove energy of yours banshee/BC/thors, Storm can be used to kill the zealots that are trying to reach the kitting marine marauder ball.
3- EMP removes 100 energy
4- EMP minimun damage is 40 (sentry/templar) max is 100 (everything that does not come from gateway takes 100 dmg) it always does the full damage that it is suposed to do.
5- EMP radius is 2, storm is 1.5... 33% bigger radius than storm
6- EMP can't be dodged after launch, when you see the EMP, it already did its job
7- EMP is instant, Storm takes 4 seconds to deal 80 dmg, it almost never do 80 dmg usually the kiting marine marauder ball
we are almost there!! Isn't the whole fucking point of 3 races is they aren't exactly the same? Why should every race have the same caster. Stupid post.
I don't think he is asking that they be identical. He just wants them to be EQUALLY EFFECTIVE. Even if it is in different ways.
|
Now I gotta make more ghosts TT
|
Shield upgrades make sense, they always seemed too expensive, even in Brood War, considering how for some units its basically half of its health. EMP nerf is good, I felt that the radius was already too big as a Terran. Not sure if I like decreasing the cost for weapons and armour upgrade, seeing how Protoss can get the fastest upgrades if they focus chronoboost on upgrades. Though I suppose in the overall scheme it would encourage more longer macro games and its cost isn't really that much.
|
Good choices, buff gateway, nerf ghosts
Completely agree
|
Isn't it amazing how PTR threads turn into flamefests the second they're posted?
Play the PTR and post on b.net forums if you think something is imba.
|
On October 26 2011 09:13 unsaintly wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:12 petro1987 wrote:On October 26 2011 09:03 DoubleReed wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder.
I was not aware that protoss are dominating outside of korea. I actually thought things were pretty even outside of korea. If by even you mean that Jinro, Thorzain and the occasional foreigner T are being bashed by good foreigner Ps (Mana, Sase, etc.), then yeah, it's completely even. Than lets turn it around. What are Terrans saying all the time? We got the better players man.
I never said it was not the case (that better players were winning). I'm just saying that outside Korea P players actually fare better then T players. It always amuses me though that even when P and Z dominate outside of Korea, T is always completely OP (and people say it in a broad sense, not like T is OP with MVP).
|
On October 26 2011 09:21 Conquerer67 wrote:
Isn't it amazing how PTR threads turn into flamefests the second they're posted?
Play the PTR and post on b.net forums if you think something is imba.
It's funny that 90% of the people posting probably haven't even set foot on the PTR prior to bitching. I mean, I haven't either, but I'm not complaining. I'll give every change a fair shake.
|
As a protoss, I love the emp/shield cost changes - the attack/armor I'm not sure yet, will have to see how it plays out. I would rather they make charge 150/150 instead personally.
|
On October 26 2011 07:03 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 06:57 avilo wrote:
so protoss can get 3/0/3 in like 12-13 min now (don't quote me on that, just saying it will come much faster)...i don't think this will turn out well.. LOL, not that fast. If toss is just turtling and chronoing out upgrades that fast, go punish them with drops and attacks.
Re-read your sentence and try to understand why what you said made no logical sense. You cannot punish/drop a 2 base TURTLING protoss that is chronoing out upgrades. That is the entire point of getting a late third and waiting for the upgrades - you can afford to sit in-base and deflect drops and you come out with a stronger army ...
|
On October 26 2011 09:18 ayaz2810 wrote:
Why do people use this argument? It's stupid.
Hypothetical protoss unit has 100 shields and 50 HP.
EMP takes away 100 shields.
50 HP left.
Your units do 50 HP worth of damage.
Unit dies.
Your EMP did 100 damage.
Congratulations, EMP is amazing.
EDIT: inb4 "micro away to let shields regen". Microing away from a stimmed army while your units try to trample each other: lol.
Corrected it for you :D
|
I'd really have to disagree with the cheaper upgrades. Even now, because of chrono boost, Protoss is the easiest race to get upgrades for quickly. It's not the biggest deal in the world, but I feel this gives Protoss an un-needed edge in PvZ in an area where they already have a huge advantage.
|
GREAT NOW I AM EMPING A SINGLE INFESTOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
|
On October 26 2011 09:20 Genome852 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:18 rpgalon wrote:+ Show Spoiler +ghosts and templars
1- ghosts have more hp (it is fucking hard to snipe it with blink stalker or colossus before the emp)
2- ghosts have more movement speed (templars speed = battlecruiser speed)
3- ghosts can cloak
4- ghosts have more range with EMP (3 more "efective range" than feedback)
5- ghosts are not light or armored (like templars or infestors) they take extra damage only to archon
6- ghosts can fight back 10/+10 vs light
7- ghosts can be upgraded to start with 75 energy
8- ghosts takes 40s to build ( templar takes 5s + 44.4s to get energy = 49,4s and delay the warpgate by 45s)
9- ghosts don't need to research EMP, (storm cost 200/200 and takes 110s to research)
10-ghosts are unlocked with a tech lab (50/25/25s) + ghost academy (150/50/40s)= 200/75/65s, while templars "with no storm" you need twilight concil (150/100/50s) + templar archives (150/200/60s)= 300/300/110s; with storm is 500/500/220s
11-ghosts have 1 more sight range
EMP and Storm
1- EMP reveals cloack, storm does not
2- EMP can be used to remove energy of yours banshee/BC/thors, Storm can be used to kill the zealots that are trying to reach the kitting marine marauder ball.
3- EMP removes 100 energy
4- EMP minimun damage is 40 (sentry/templar) max is 100 (everything that does not come from gateway takes 100 dmg) it always does the full damage that it is suposed to do.
5- EMP radius is 2, storm is 1.5... 33% bigger radius than storm
6- EMP can't be dodged after launch, when you see the EMP, it already did its job
7- EMP is instant, Storm takes 4 seconds to deal 80 dmg, it almost never do 80 dmg usually the kiting marine marauder ball
we are almost there!! Not biased at all.
Please, counter it with your non-biased list.
|
On October 26 2011 09:22 PikaXchU wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:18 ayaz2810 wrote:
Why do people use this argument? It's stupid.
Hypothetical protoss unit has 100 shields and 50 HP.
EMP takes away 100 shields.
50 HP left.
Your units do 50 HP worth of damage.
Unit dies.
Your EMP did 100 damage.
Congratulations, EMP is amazing.
EDIT: inb4 "micro away to let shields regen". Microing away from a stimmed army while your units try to trample each other: lol. Corrected it for you :D
Thank you sir. That actually is more accurate. Terran as a race is, I feel, pretty well balanced against the others. With the exception of EMP obviously.
|
On October 26 2011 09:15 Nightshake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:04 Snaphoo wrote:On October 26 2011 09:00 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. I just...completely agree.... Watch some GSL on GomTvT instead of deciding that your experiences in Platinum should guide Blizz balancing decisions. I'm glad you feel qualified to judge how good Korean Ps are-- could it be, though, that you just need to learn to play better against Protoss and that in fact T has a balance advantage over P? I would trust the experience of GSL Code S results since GAME RELEASE with the exception of MC over that of the ladder experience of a random TL poster. mjwNshake 863 (master Terran) Milkshake 558 (master Protoss) Who said I was Platinum ? I have the right to agree to something. Please stop talking about leagues, it's stupid, especially witht he fact that I'm master with both races, so I think i can be quite objective. In face, PvT is quite balanced, but the metagame is just a huge disorder, where it's batlle between mass Ghosts/Vikings and mass Colossus/HT.
Ghosts own HTs hard in almost any possible situation. The only way a HT can be more effective than a Ghost is if Protoss has sight advantage (which allows feedback) which is impossible because of scans killing observers easily. This also means cloak is a massive advantage for the ghost.
This is best seen in the only TSL3 game between MC and ThorZain on TDA. MC was playing masterfully, actually countering everything TZ did, yet he was starting to fall behind because of ghosts. Then TZ made a mistake with his ghosts, leaving them too close to the ramp at the exit of MC's natural. This allowed HTs to feedback safely, and won MC a crucial encounter. Without sight advantage, you cannot beat Ghosts.
It's basically because Ghosts are faster, and considering AoE, EMP has the longer range, so they control the pace of the GvHT balance because of their micro advantage
|
hmm, the shiled upgrades i can see why but the ground and armor upgrade 2/3 are weird
|
On October 26 2011 09:16 mbr2321 wrote:
I don't know if the upgrade cost is such a big deal. Might help out a +1 timing attack get out a little faster, but cost of upgrades was never a big deal in the long run. EMP range... Ghost emp edge is still .5 higher than Templar feedback, but it's going to turn into a more interesting micro mechanic, rather than Terrans just winning the EMP/FB battle all the time, Terrans might have to work a little harder, and even use snipe a little bit.
They already use snipe against HTs because EMP was made relatively useless against ones with 150-175+ energy.
|
Sounds like White Ra got his way! GL to all Protoss in the near future! I guess the ghost EMP was beginning to be imba. Hopefully SOTG will have some quality thoughts on all of this.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
