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On October 26 2011 09:07 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 08:36 L0thar wrote:On October 26 2011 08:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 26 2011 08:04 Whitewing wrote:
I do have to laugh about this EMP nerf to be honest.
Someone a while back made a comparison between two units and nerfs.
Unit A and Unit B are identical on all stats and upgrades, except unit A does 10 damage and unit B only does 4. Unit A is therefore overpowered, or Unit B is underpowered (let's assume the former for argument's sake). Unit A gets nerfed to only deal 8 damage, this is a significant nerf to the unit (20% damage nerf). It's still overpowered, as it's still dealing double damage compared to Unit B.
This nerf to EMP is nowhere near enough, and it's probably too strong still. It needs to either A: not deal all it's damage instanteously and be dodgeable like storm (create an energy draining field), B: deal less damage to shields, or C: Shorter range. 'Twas me, I do believe  And I'm interested in seeing if Terrans will double the number of ghosts they have because of this, or if this reduced radius will pretty much not do anything at all to TvP. Is it the wrong nerf to EMP? Should it do less damage rather than smaller radius (or both)? Same range as feedback or storm? And what about Snipe vs. Zerg? Perhaps if ghosts just started with less energy or needed to research more, that would help as well. Ghosts even counter themselves, for cryin' out loud. Regardless, I'm happy they finally got hit with the nerfbat. As a Protoss player, I'll take what I can get against ghosts. I kind of think that ghosts are one of the only enigmas left in Wings of Liberty. Sure, there may be other problems left (like inherent ultralisk pathing... sucks for Zerg players x.x but that'll hopefully get sorted out in HotS with the burrow-charge), but some things can be meta-gamed out. I think ghosts are one of the only things left in WoL that require a little patching. The comparison between unit A and B is wrong on so many levels. The races aren't identical and no unit of one race plays exactly the same role as an unit of other race. It's the same falacy like the good ol' "2 lings kill a rine, wtfbbq lings imba!" Actually the original context of the Unit A vs. Unit B anecdote I had once made wasn't Ghost vs. High Templar or any two real units (it was, instead, a hypothetical situation showing two identical units differing only in one way- on a completely different thread- demonstrating the occasional need of careful tweaking through nerfs and buffs), and I agree with you that no two units are supposed to work exactly the same, but the point still stands that ghosts were overpowered. Hence the nerf. The reason that my old comparison was brought up was that- even with this EMP nerf- it may be the case that ghosts might still be overpowered even though they were nerfed. The key is that they weren't nerfed *enough*. Let me elaborate. My old anecdote went something like this: Take two units that are completely identical in every way (speed, hp, range, etc.) except for the fact that Unit A deals 10 dps and Unit B only deals 4 dps. If we wanted to achieve a balance between these two, Unit A would have to be nerfed or Unit B would have to be buffed. Say that Unit A was nerfed so that it now deals 8 dps. It got nerfed, but it's still stronger. It still needs to be nerfed again. And say it gets nerfed down another 2 dps so it's at 6dps. Still too powerful. By now, surely those in favor of Unit A are screaming "Stop nerfing my unit! Two nerfs is ridiculous!" But yet, it's still too powerful. It needs another nerf so that both Unit A and Unit B are both attacking at 4 dps. The point was merely that the ghost needs to be nerfed so that it's balanced. This may be the first of a few nerfs (perhaps one against Protosses with the EMP issue, and then another future one against Zergs with the snipe issue). It's not comparing two actual separate units (like why ghosts and high templar should be perfectly balanced), because the units shouldn't be perfectly analogous. It certainly can't be obtained with spellcasters.
Fair enough about the comparison in general.
I'm however skeptical to the "ghost imba" issue. Especially the snipe in TvZ seems perfectly fair so far. Well let's see what the future brings...
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On October 26 2011 09:31 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:28 aksfjh wrote:On October 26 2011 09:24 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:15 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:04 Snaphoo wrote:On October 26 2011 09:00 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. I just...completely agree.... Watch some GSL on GomTvT instead of deciding that your experiences in Platinum should guide Blizz balancing decisions. I'm glad you feel qualified to judge how good Korean Ps are-- could it be, though, that you just need to learn to play better against Protoss and that in fact T has a balance advantage over P? I would trust the experience of GSL Code S results since GAME RELEASE with the exception of MC over that of the ladder experience of a random TL poster. mjwNshake 863 (master Terran) Milkshake 558 (master Protoss) Who said I was Platinum ? I have the right to agree to something. Please stop talking about leagues, it's stupid, especially witht he fact that I'm master with both races, so I think i can be quite objective. In face, PvT is quite balanced, but the metagame is just a huge disorder, where it's batlle between mass Ghosts/Vikings and mass Colossus/HT. Ghosts own HTs hard in almost any possible situation. The only way a HT can be more effective than a Ghost is if Protoss has sight advantage (which allows feedback) which is impossible because of scans killing observers easily. This is best seen in the only TSL3 game between MC and ThorZain on TDA. MC was playing masterfully, actually countering everything TZ did, yet he was starting to fall behind because of ghosts. Then TZ made a mistake with his ghosts, leaving them too close to the ramp at the exit of MC's natural. This allowed HTs to feedback safely, and won MC a crucial encounter. Without sight advantage, you cannot beat Ghosts. It's basically because Ghosts are faster, and considering AoE, EMP has the longer range, so they control the pace of the GvHT balance because of their micro advantage Man, if only Protoss had other units ghosts didn't counter so well, maybe a giant unit that had siege range and did a lot of damage, or another unit that requires a lot of DPS to kill, has much more life than shields, and can be massed easily... Oh well, guess ghosts are just too good without these units... LOL.... You understand the standard composition to counter colossi includes vikings too right? You understand that once ghosts shoot their EMP it doesn't matter if they die right? You realize you're stating ghosts are useless against colo when they actually deal 100 instant damage to them as well, while also hitting all units below them right? God... people can be so shortsighted...
Again, try to kill with Ghosts.
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On October 26 2011 09:26 PikaXchU wrote:
What? Why EMP an infestor when you can snipe it? Lack of micro? Or just plain lazy because you have the easy AOE button?
Get real, Protoss players have to click Feedback on each and every infestor, and you Terrans have the AOE mana drain spell. Have we complained about Feedback not being AOE?
You realize that sniping an infestor requires 3 snipes, 75 energy.
Feedback requires 1 feedback or 50 energy to neutralize an infestor and more than likely kill it.
Feedback can also one shot and several cripple many terran units: Thor, BC, Banshee, Ghost, Medivac. Feedback medivacs is just as good if not better than a Storm/EMP. You cripple the only way that T can regenerate health in a bio army.
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Still no 1/1/1 fix though... I wonder what exactly they think of that push.
Also, Protoss endgame still suffers a little bit, because once you hit 3/3/3 theres nothing more for you to do but fall more and more behind as they catch up in upgrades. This has been seen in the past with mass EMP completely nullifying shield upgrades and just in general other races upgrades being better.
e.g. Marauders get +1 to light and an additional +1 to armored for each upgrade. Roaches get +2 for each upgrade. Stalkers only get +1 to everything. If a 0/0 stalker/zealot/sentry army is even with a 0/0 roach or marauder based army, a 3/3/3 stalker/zealot sentry is way behind a 3/3 marauder or roach based army.
Keep in mind that it takes a shield AND an armor upgrade to do the same job as just an armor upgrade for zerg/terran.
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On October 26 2011 09:32 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
weeee I <3 ups. As a toss player this patch contains nothing but rainbows and kittens :D
I switched to terran over the weekend just because of ghosts. Now I feel like I need to change back to toss and do a happy dance.
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On October 26 2011 09:19 NuKedUFirst wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:18 rpgalon wrote:
ghosts and templars
1- ghosts have more hp (it is fucking hard to snipe it with blink stalker or colossus before the emp)
2- ghosts have more movement speed (templars speed = battlecruiser speed)
3- ghosts can cloak
4- ghosts have more range with EMP (3 more "efective range" than feedback)
5- ghosts are not light or armored (like templars or infestors) they take extra damage only to archon
6- ghosts can fight back 10/+10 vs light
7- ghosts can be upgraded to start with 75 energy
8- ghosts takes 40s to build ( templar takes 5s + 44.4s to get energy = 49,4s and delay the warpgate by 45s)
9- ghosts don't need to research EMP, (storm cost 200/200 and takes 110s to research)
10-ghosts are unlocked with a tech lab (50/25/25s) + ghost academy (150/50/40s)= 200/75/65s, while templars "with no storm" you need twilight concil (150/100/50s) + templar archives (150/200/60s)= 300/300/110s; with storm is 500/500/220s
11-ghosts have 1 more sight range
EMP and Storm
1- EMP reveals cloack, storm does not
2- EMP can be used to remove energy of yours banshee/BC/thors, Storm can be used to kill the zealots that are trying to reach the kitting marine marauder ball.
3- EMP removes 100 energy
4- EMP minimun damage is 40 (sentry/templar) max is 100 (everything that does not come from gateway takes 100 dmg) it always does the full damage that it is suposed to do.
5- EMP radius is 2, storm is 1.5... 33% bigger radius than storm
6- EMP can't be dodged after launch, when you see the EMP, it already did its job
7- EMP is instant, Storm takes 4 seconds to deal 80 dmg, it almost never do 80 dmg usually the kiting marine marauder ball
we are almost there!! Isn't the whole fucking point of 3 races is that they aren't exactly the same? Why should every race have the same caster. Stupid post.
How is this post stupid? you gotta be trolling. He perfectly put into perspective how ridiculously powerful ghost is and how many advantages it has in the heat of the battle.
EMP at 1.5 is a step in the right direction, but the ghost still has PLENTY of things that they can tinker with to balance them out. AND he left out how imbalanced snipe is(guessing he was trying to be nice).
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On October 26 2011 09:29 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:26 PikaXchU wrote:On October 26 2011 09:23 xTrim wrote:
GREAT NOW I AM EMPING A SINGLE INFESTOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What? Why EMP an infestor when you can snipe it? Lack of micro? Or just plain lazy because you have the easy AOE button? Get real, Protoss players have to click Feedback on each and every infestor, and you Terrans have the AOE mana drain spell. Have we complained about Feedback not being AOE? Protoss can auto cast it by clicking on the mini map.
i thought that was disproved already? its not autocast and clicking on the minimap is a lot harder?
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On October 26 2011 09:28 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:24 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:15 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:04 Snaphoo wrote:On October 26 2011 09:00 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. I just...completely agree.... Watch some GSL on GomTvT instead of deciding that your experiences in Platinum should guide Blizz balancing decisions. I'm glad you feel qualified to judge how good Korean Ps are-- could it be, though, that you just need to learn to play better against Protoss and that in fact T has a balance advantage over P? I would trust the experience of GSL Code S results since GAME RELEASE with the exception of MC over that of the ladder experience of a random TL poster. mjwNshake 863 (master Terran) Milkshake 558 (master Protoss) Who said I was Platinum ? I have the right to agree to something. Please stop talking about leagues, it's stupid, especially witht he fact that I'm master with both races, so I think i can be quite objective. In face, PvT is quite balanced, but the metagame is just a huge disorder, where it's batlle between mass Ghosts/Vikings and mass Colossus/HT. Ghosts own HTs hard in almost any possible situation. The only way a HT can be more effective than a Ghost is if Protoss has sight advantage (which allows feedback) which is impossible because of scans killing observers easily. This is best seen in the only TSL3 game between MC and ThorZain on TDA. MC was playing masterfully, actually countering everything TZ did, yet he was starting to fall behind because of ghosts. Then TZ made a mistake with his ghosts, leaving them too close to the ramp at the exit of MC's natural. This allowed HTs to feedback safely, and won MC a crucial encounter. Without sight advantage, you cannot beat Ghosts. It's basically because Ghosts are faster, and considering AoE, EMP has the longer range, so they control the pace of the GvHT balance because of their micro advantage Man, if only Protoss had other units ghosts didn't counter so well, maybe a giant unit that had siege range and did a lot of damage, or another unit that requires a lot of DPS to kill, has much more life than shields, and can be massed easily... Oh well, guess ghosts are just too good without these units...
Sadly there aren't any Protoss units that don't have shields.
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On October 26 2011 09:30 Nightshake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:24 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:15 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:04 Snaphoo wrote:On October 26 2011 09:00 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. I just...completely agree.... Watch some GSL on GomTvT instead of deciding that your experiences in Platinum should guide Blizz balancing decisions. I'm glad you feel qualified to judge how good Korean Ps are-- could it be, though, that you just need to learn to play better against Protoss and that in fact T has a balance advantage over P? I would trust the experience of GSL Code S results since GAME RELEASE with the exception of MC over that of the ladder experience of a random TL poster. mjwNshake 863 (master Terran) Milkshake 558 (master Protoss) Who said I was Platinum ? I have the right to agree to something. Please stop talking about leagues, it's stupid, especially witht he fact that I'm master with both races, so I think i can be quite objective. In face, PvT is quite balanced, but the metagame is just a huge disorder, where it's batlle between mass Ghosts/Vikings and mass Colossus/HT. Ghosts own HTs hard in almost any possible situation. The only way a HT can be more effective than a Ghost is if Protoss has sight advantage (which allows feedback) which is impossible because of scans killing observers easily. This also means cloak is a massive advantage for the ghost. This is best seen in the only TSL3 game between MC and ThorZain on TDA. MC was playing masterfully, actually countering everything TZ did, yet he was starting to fall behind because of ghosts. Then TZ made a mistake with his ghosts, leaving them too close to the ramp at the exit of MC's natural. This allowed HTs to feedback safely, and won MC a crucial encounter. Without sight advantage, you cannot beat Ghosts. It's basically because Ghosts are faster, and considering AoE, EMP has the longer range, so they control the pace of the GvHT balance because of their micro advantage I totally agree with you with the fact that Ghosts are more valuable units than HT's. But HT's are stronger, because they do AoE damage ( stop saying that EMP does damage, please ), and they can Feedback, which are too very offensive spells. Aswell, they are a bit cheaper. Now, this is really hard to argue. It's not the same type of unit. HT are really strong when they are with an army, but Ghosts are better individual. EMP is clearly very strong. But man, Colossus + HT + Archon + Mass Zealot is almost impossible to beat as Terran, even if you have a very good micro. The problem is that Protoss is too limited in his actions to do a good fight.
100 shield damage is A LOT of damage. In AoE as well. And no... GSL has taught us many times that endgame archon/chargelot/colo is by no means unbeatable, all it takes is a decent EMP. Protoss need things like Warp Prism micro to avoid this skill (which is not really inherently bad, but is a testament of how strong EMP is).
Shield damage = Damage. If you want to be nitpicky about it, let's talk about EHP (Effective hit points). In a battle, EHP for protoss units = Shields + HP, which means EMP deals damage, even if it can't kill. Easy enough to understand?
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You do realize that EMP can still take 40% of a colossus HP bar right?
Lets see what feedback can do:
Instant kill: Banshee, medivac, ghost
Deal 200 damage to Thor/BC
Want to know why Terran only go bio vs P? Because every other unit is useless and a liability.
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On October 26 2011 09:32 Nightshake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:31 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:28 aksfjh wrote:On October 26 2011 09:24 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:15 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:04 Snaphoo wrote:On October 26 2011 09:00 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. I just...completely agree.... Watch some GSL on GomTvT instead of deciding that your experiences in Platinum should guide Blizz balancing decisions. I'm glad you feel qualified to judge how good Korean Ps are-- could it be, though, that you just need to learn to play better against Protoss and that in fact T has a balance advantage over P? I would trust the experience of GSL Code S results since GAME RELEASE with the exception of MC over that of the ladder experience of a random TL poster. mjwNshake 863 (master Terran) Milkshake 558 (master Protoss) Who said I was Platinum ? I have the right to agree to something. Please stop talking about leagues, it's stupid, especially witht he fact that I'm master with both races, so I think i can be quite objective. In face, PvT is quite balanced, but the metagame is just a huge disorder, where it's batlle between mass Ghosts/Vikings and mass Colossus/HT. Ghosts own HTs hard in almost any possible situation. The only way a HT can be more effective than a Ghost is if Protoss has sight advantage (which allows feedback) which is impossible because of scans killing observers easily. This is best seen in the only TSL3 game between MC and ThorZain on TDA. MC was playing masterfully, actually countering everything TZ did, yet he was starting to fall behind because of ghosts. Then TZ made a mistake with his ghosts, leaving them too close to the ramp at the exit of MC's natural. This allowed HTs to feedback safely, and won MC a crucial encounter. Without sight advantage, you cannot beat Ghosts. It's basically because Ghosts are faster, and considering AoE, EMP has the longer range, so they control the pace of the GvHT balance because of their micro advantage Man, if only Protoss had other units ghosts didn't counter so well, maybe a giant unit that had siege range and did a lot of damage, or another unit that requires a lot of DPS to kill, has much more life than shields, and can be massed easily... Oh well, guess ghosts are just too good without these units... LOL.... You understand the standard composition to counter colossi includes vikings too right? You understand that once ghosts shoot their EMP it doesn't matter if they die right? You realize you're stating ghosts are useless against colo when they actually deal 100 instant damage to them as well, while also hitting all units below them right? God... people can be so shortsighted... Again, try to kill with Ghosts.
so you make only ghosts every games? Something is wrong with your play, I think
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On October 26 2011 09:34 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:30 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:24 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:15 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:04 Snaphoo wrote:On October 26 2011 09:00 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. I just...completely agree.... Watch some GSL on GomTvT instead of deciding that your experiences in Platinum should guide Blizz balancing decisions. I'm glad you feel qualified to judge how good Korean Ps are-- could it be, though, that you just need to learn to play better against Protoss and that in fact T has a balance advantage over P? I would trust the experience of GSL Code S results since GAME RELEASE with the exception of MC over that of the ladder experience of a random TL poster. mjwNshake 863 (master Terran) Milkshake 558 (master Protoss) Who said I was Platinum ? I have the right to agree to something. Please stop talking about leagues, it's stupid, especially witht he fact that I'm master with both races, so I think i can be quite objective. In face, PvT is quite balanced, but the metagame is just a huge disorder, where it's batlle between mass Ghosts/Vikings and mass Colossus/HT. Ghosts own HTs hard in almost any possible situation. The only way a HT can be more effective than a Ghost is if Protoss has sight advantage (which allows feedback) which is impossible because of scans killing observers easily. This also means cloak is a massive advantage for the ghost. This is best seen in the only TSL3 game between MC and ThorZain on TDA. MC was playing masterfully, actually countering everything TZ did, yet he was starting to fall behind because of ghosts. Then TZ made a mistake with his ghosts, leaving them too close to the ramp at the exit of MC's natural. This allowed HTs to feedback safely, and won MC a crucial encounter. Without sight advantage, you cannot beat Ghosts. It's basically because Ghosts are faster, and considering AoE, EMP has the longer range, so they control the pace of the GvHT balance because of their micro advantage I totally agree with you with the fact that Ghosts are more valuable units than HT's. But HT's are stronger, because they do AoE damage ( stop saying that EMP does damage, please ), and they can Feedback, which are too very offensive spells. Aswell, they are a bit cheaper. Now, this is really hard to argue. It's not the same type of unit. HT are really strong when they are with an army, but Ghosts are better individual. EMP is clearly very strong. But man, Colossus + HT + Archon + Mass Zealot is almost impossible to beat as Terran, even if you have a very good micro. The problem is that Protoss is too limited in his actions to do a good fight. 100 shield damage is A LOT of damage. In AoE as well. And no... GSL has taught us many times that endgame archon/chargelot/colo is by no means unbeatable, all it takes is a decent EMP. Protoss need things like Warp Prism micro to avoid this skill (which is not really inherently bad, but is a testament of how strong EMP is)
EMP still DOESN'T KILL.
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Hm.. with all these reduce costs on upgrades, triple forge build incoming?
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On October 26 2011 09:34 jazzman wrote:Lets see what feedback can do: Instant kill: Banshee, medivac, ghost Deal 200 damage to Thor/BC Want to know why Terran only go bio vs P? Because every other unit is useless and a liability.
Gotta get in range to bang out those feedbacks. Hard to do when your caster moves at 1/2 the speed of everything else.
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On October 26 2011 09:23 sickle wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:20 Genome852 wrote:On October 26 2011 09:18 rpgalon wrote:+ Show Spoiler +ghosts and templars
1- ghosts have more hp (it is fucking hard to snipe it with blink stalker or colossus before the emp)
2- ghosts have more movement speed (templars speed = battlecruiser speed)
3- ghosts can cloak
4- ghosts have more range with EMP (3 more "efective range" than feedback)
5- ghosts are not light or armored (like templars or infestors) they take extra damage only to archon
6- ghosts can fight back 10/+10 vs light
7- ghosts can be upgraded to start with 75 energy
8- ghosts takes 40s to build ( templar takes 5s + 44.4s to get energy = 49,4s and delay the warpgate by 45s)
9- ghosts don't need to research EMP, (storm cost 200/200 and takes 110s to research)
10-ghosts are unlocked with a tech lab (50/25/25s) + ghost academy (150/50/40s)= 200/75/65s, while templars "with no storm" you need twilight concil (150/100/50s) + templar archives (150/200/60s)= 300/300/110s; with storm is 500/500/220s
11-ghosts have 1 more sight range
EMP and Storm
1- EMP reveals cloack, storm does not
2- EMP can be used to remove energy of yours banshee/BC/thors, Storm can be used to kill the zealots that are trying to reach the kitting marine marauder ball.
3- EMP removes 100 energy
4- EMP minimun damage is 40 (sentry/templar) max is 100 (everything that does not come from gateway takes 100 dmg) it always does the full damage that it is suposed to do.
5- EMP radius is 2, storm is 1.5... 33% bigger radius than storm
6- EMP can't be dodged after launch, when you see the EMP, it already did its job
7- EMP is instant, Storm takes 4 seconds to deal 80 dmg, it almost never do 80 dmg usually the kiting marine marauder ball
we are almost there!! Not biased at all. Please, counter it with your non-biased list.
Ghost vs. HT has been something that has been argued since SC2 was released, it's just regurgitation at this point.
Speaking of spellcasters, why do they have to be equally effective? If you nerf ghosts to become absolutely useless units, but gave marines double their current damage, would you say Terran is now underpowered because their spellcaster is worse than HT / infestor? No, I'm pretty sure double damage marines would make T ridiculously overpowered... so shouldn't balance be based around a race as a whole, and not just singular units? (Bad example but hopefully I'm making sense)
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This is great news, now we will get to see more skill demanding strats like the Zealot-Archon combo, now with extra fast 3/3/3 upgrades.
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On October 26 2011 09:32 Nightshake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:31 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:28 aksfjh wrote:On October 26 2011 09:24 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:15 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:04 Snaphoo wrote:On October 26 2011 09:00 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. I just...completely agree.... Watch some GSL on GomTvT instead of deciding that your experiences in Platinum should guide Blizz balancing decisions. I'm glad you feel qualified to judge how good Korean Ps are-- could it be, though, that you just need to learn to play better against Protoss and that in fact T has a balance advantage over P? I would trust the experience of GSL Code S results since GAME RELEASE with the exception of MC over that of the ladder experience of a random TL poster. mjwNshake 863 (master Terran) Milkshake 558 (master Protoss) Who said I was Platinum ? I have the right to agree to something. Please stop talking about leagues, it's stupid, especially witht he fact that I'm master with both races, so I think i can be quite objective. In face, PvT is quite balanced, but the metagame is just a huge disorder, where it's batlle between mass Ghosts/Vikings and mass Colossus/HT. Ghosts own HTs hard in almost any possible situation. The only way a HT can be more effective than a Ghost is if Protoss has sight advantage (which allows feedback) which is impossible because of scans killing observers easily. This is best seen in the only TSL3 game between MC and ThorZain on TDA. MC was playing masterfully, actually countering everything TZ did, yet he was starting to fall behind because of ghosts. Then TZ made a mistake with his ghosts, leaving them too close to the ramp at the exit of MC's natural. This allowed HTs to feedback safely, and won MC a crucial encounter. Without sight advantage, you cannot beat Ghosts. It's basically because Ghosts are faster, and considering AoE, EMP has the longer range, so they control the pace of the GvHT balance because of their micro advantage Man, if only Protoss had other units ghosts didn't counter so well, maybe a giant unit that had siege range and did a lot of damage, or another unit that requires a lot of DPS to kill, has much more life than shields, and can be massed easily... Oh well, guess ghosts are just too good without these units... LOL.... You understand the standard composition to counter colossi includes vikings too right? You understand that once ghosts shoot their EMP it doesn't matter if they die right? You realize you're stating ghosts are useless against colo when they actually deal 100 instant damage to them as well, while also hitting all units below them right? God... people can be so shortsighted... Again, try to kill with Ghosts.
The point isn't to kill with Ghost, it completely destroys the army so your main army just swoops in and finishes the job, if you're doing it backwards then all I can do is laugh.
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On October 26 2011 09:35 ForeverSleep wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:32 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:31 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:28 aksfjh wrote:On October 26 2011 09:24 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:15 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:04 Snaphoo wrote:On October 26 2011 09:00 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. I just...completely agree.... Watch some GSL on GomTvT instead of deciding that your experiences in Platinum should guide Blizz balancing decisions. I'm glad you feel qualified to judge how good Korean Ps are-- could it be, though, that you just need to learn to play better against Protoss and that in fact T has a balance advantage over P? I would trust the experience of GSL Code S results since GAME RELEASE with the exception of MC over that of the ladder experience of a random TL poster. mjwNshake 863 (master Terran) Milkshake 558 (master Protoss) Who said I was Platinum ? I have the right to agree to something. Please stop talking about leagues, it's stupid, especially witht he fact that I'm master with both races, so I think i can be quite objective. In face, PvT is quite balanced, but the metagame is just a huge disorder, where it's batlle between mass Ghosts/Vikings and mass Colossus/HT. Ghosts own HTs hard in almost any possible situation. The only way a HT can be more effective than a Ghost is if Protoss has sight advantage (which allows feedback) which is impossible because of scans killing observers easily. This is best seen in the only TSL3 game between MC and ThorZain on TDA. MC was playing masterfully, actually countering everything TZ did, yet he was starting to fall behind because of ghosts. Then TZ made a mistake with his ghosts, leaving them too close to the ramp at the exit of MC's natural. This allowed HTs to feedback safely, and won MC a crucial encounter. Without sight advantage, you cannot beat Ghosts. It's basically because Ghosts are faster, and considering AoE, EMP has the longer range, so they control the pace of the GvHT balance because of their micro advantage Man, if only Protoss had other units ghosts didn't counter so well, maybe a giant unit that had siege range and did a lot of damage, or another unit that requires a lot of DPS to kill, has much more life than shields, and can be massed easily... Oh well, guess ghosts are just too good without these units... LOL.... You understand the standard composition to counter colossi includes vikings too right? You understand that once ghosts shoot their EMP it doesn't matter if they die right? You realize you're stating ghosts are useless against colo when they actually deal 100 instant damage to them as well, while also hitting all units below them right? God... people can be so shortsighted... Again, try to kill with Ghosts. so you make only ghosts every games? Something is wrong with your play, I think
Ht can kil with Storm, as Ghosts can not. I think this i pretty easy to understand.
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On October 26 2011 09:35 Nightshake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:34 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:30 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:24 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:15 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:04 Snaphoo wrote:On October 26 2011 09:00 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. I just...completely agree.... Watch some GSL on GomTvT instead of deciding that your experiences in Platinum should guide Blizz balancing decisions. I'm glad you feel qualified to judge how good Korean Ps are-- could it be, though, that you just need to learn to play better against Protoss and that in fact T has a balance advantage over P? I would trust the experience of GSL Code S results since GAME RELEASE with the exception of MC over that of the ladder experience of a random TL poster. mjwNshake 863 (master Terran) Milkshake 558 (master Protoss) Who said I was Platinum ? I have the right to agree to something. Please stop talking about leagues, it's stupid, especially witht he fact that I'm master with both races, so I think i can be quite objective. In face, PvT is quite balanced, but the metagame is just a huge disorder, where it's batlle between mass Ghosts/Vikings and mass Colossus/HT. Ghosts own HTs hard in almost any possible situation. The only way a HT can be more effective than a Ghost is if Protoss has sight advantage (which allows feedback) which is impossible because of scans killing observers easily. This also means cloak is a massive advantage for the ghost. This is best seen in the only TSL3 game between MC and ThorZain on TDA. MC was playing masterfully, actually countering everything TZ did, yet he was starting to fall behind because of ghosts. Then TZ made a mistake with his ghosts, leaving them too close to the ramp at the exit of MC's natural. This allowed HTs to feedback safely, and won MC a crucial encounter. Without sight advantage, you cannot beat Ghosts. It's basically because Ghosts are faster, and considering AoE, EMP has the longer range, so they control the pace of the GvHT balance because of their micro advantage I totally agree with you with the fact that Ghosts are more valuable units than HT's. But HT's are stronger, because they do AoE damage ( stop saying that EMP does damage, please ), and they can Feedback, which are too very offensive spells. Aswell, they are a bit cheaper. Now, this is really hard to argue. It's not the same type of unit. HT are really strong when they are with an army, but Ghosts are better individual. EMP is clearly very strong. But man, Colossus + HT + Archon + Mass Zealot is almost impossible to beat as Terran, even if you have a very good micro. The problem is that Protoss is too limited in his actions to do a good fight. 100 shield damage is A LOT of damage. In AoE as well. And no... GSL has taught us many times that endgame archon/chargelot/colo is by no means unbeatable, all it takes is a decent EMP. Protoss need things like Warp Prism micro to avoid this skill (which is not really inherently bad, but is a testament of how strong EMP is) EMP still DOESN'T KILL.
Sigh........
Doesn't matter it doesn't kill, it's still damage..... shield damage doesn't kill... it's still damage... this is sad....
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your Country52798 Posts
Yay cheap upgrades and more difficult emp <3
Good stuff is happening at blizzard.
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EPT
