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On October 26 2011 09:34 jazzman wrote:Lets see what feedback can do: Instant kill Sometimes: Banshee, medivac, ghost Deal 200 damage Sometimes to Thor/BC Want to know why Terran only go bio vs P? Because every other unit is useless and a liability.
What does EMP do? It deals up to 100 Shield Damage on every unit it hits ALL THE TIME
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On October 26 2011 09:30 nvs. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:27 Mehukannu wrote:On October 26 2011 09:18 nvs. wrote:On October 26 2011 09:17 Mehukannu wrote:On October 26 2011 09:11 nvs. wrote:On October 26 2011 09:10 Mehukannu wrote:On October 26 2011 09:04 nvs. wrote:On October 26 2011 09:03 biaxiong wrote:On October 26 2011 09:02 winthrop wrote:
what about psi storm?
Nerf already beta and amulet. 375 M and 375 Gas total savings, I would consider shield upgrades now. Ya, I forgot amulet too. Psi storm has already been nerfed to 1.5 and lost its energy upgrade. Let's leave it at that. Yeah, it's not like instant storm anywhere where you have pylon was any good at all... I never said it wasn't? Putting words into my mouth? Classic C- argumentation. Just felt that you were implying it. I don't even get why people even bring up the whole khaydarin amulet nerf, that thing was OP as crap. even blizzard wondered why they even let HT have it back when it was removed. Which Dustin answered to kennigit in the interview at blizzcon 2011. The point was that people keep saying Storm was never nerfed and needs to be nerfed if EMP is going to be, but they forget it has actually been nerfed 3 times already. Had nothing to do with how powerful warp-in storm was. Fair enough, but was storm nerfed 3 times? I thought it had been nerfed just 2 times (storm size and amulet) or am I just missing something? O.o Damage as well in early beta. 
That must be really early beta, because there is nothing about it in liquipedia. =D
But now that I think about it, I guess there were that nerf too. Did it do like 100 damage over time?
On the emp I always thought storm and emp had same radius glad that that they are both same now as it should, but still not sure about the cheaper ground weapons and armor upgrades. >_>
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On October 26 2011 09:35 Nightshake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:34 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:30 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:24 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:15 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:04 Snaphoo wrote:On October 26 2011 09:00 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. I just...completely agree.... Watch some GSL on GomTvT instead of deciding that your experiences in Platinum should guide Blizz balancing decisions. I'm glad you feel qualified to judge how good Korean Ps are-- could it be, though, that you just need to learn to play better against Protoss and that in fact T has a balance advantage over P? I would trust the experience of GSL Code S results since GAME RELEASE with the exception of MC over that of the ladder experience of a random TL poster. mjwNshake 863 (master Terran) Milkshake 558 (master Protoss) Who said I was Platinum ? I have the right to agree to something. Please stop talking about leagues, it's stupid, especially witht he fact that I'm master with both races, so I think i can be quite objective. In face, PvT is quite balanced, but the metagame is just a huge disorder, where it's batlle between mass Ghosts/Vikings and mass Colossus/HT. Ghosts own HTs hard in almost any possible situation. The only way a HT can be more effective than a Ghost is if Protoss has sight advantage (which allows feedback) which is impossible because of scans killing observers easily. This also means cloak is a massive advantage for the ghost. This is best seen in the only TSL3 game between MC and ThorZain on TDA. MC was playing masterfully, actually countering everything TZ did, yet he was starting to fall behind because of ghosts. Then TZ made a mistake with his ghosts, leaving them too close to the ramp at the exit of MC's natural. This allowed HTs to feedback safely, and won MC a crucial encounter. Without sight advantage, you cannot beat Ghosts. It's basically because Ghosts are faster, and considering AoE, EMP has the longer range, so they control the pace of the GvHT balance because of their micro advantage I totally agree with you with the fact that Ghosts are more valuable units than HT's. But HT's are stronger, because they do AoE damage ( stop saying that EMP does damage, please ), and they can Feedback, which are too very offensive spells. Aswell, they are a bit cheaper. Now, this is really hard to argue. It's not the same type of unit. HT are really strong when they are with an army, but Ghosts are better individual. EMP is clearly very strong. But man, Colossus + HT + Archon + Mass Zealot is almost impossible to beat as Terran, even if you have a very good micro. The problem is that Protoss is too limited in his actions to do a good fight. 100 shield damage is A LOT of damage. In AoE as well. And no... GSL has taught us many times that endgame archon/chargelot/colo is by no means unbeatable, all it takes is a decent EMP. Protoss need things like Warp Prism micro to avoid this skill (which is not really inherently bad, but is a testament of how strong EMP is) EMP still DOESN'T KILL.
That is a correct statement. ...So what?
EMP doesn't have to kill for it to do far more damage than storms. Protoss isn't allowed to call a time-out in the middle of a battle so that their shields can recharge (much slower than medivacs can heal, by the way).
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On October 26 2011 09:32 Nightshake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:31 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:28 aksfjh wrote:On October 26 2011 09:24 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:15 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:04 Snaphoo wrote:On October 26 2011 09:00 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. I just...completely agree.... Watch some GSL on GomTvT instead of deciding that your experiences in Platinum should guide Blizz balancing decisions. I'm glad you feel qualified to judge how good Korean Ps are-- could it be, though, that you just need to learn to play better against Protoss and that in fact T has a balance advantage over P? I would trust the experience of GSL Code S results since GAME RELEASE with the exception of MC over that of the ladder experience of a random TL poster. mjwNshake 863 (master Terran) Milkshake 558 (master Protoss) Who said I was Platinum ? I have the right to agree to something. Please stop talking about leagues, it's stupid, especially witht he fact that I'm master with both races, so I think i can be quite objective. In face, PvT is quite balanced, but the metagame is just a huge disorder, where it's batlle between mass Ghosts/Vikings and mass Colossus/HT. Ghosts own HTs hard in almost any possible situation. The only way a HT can be more effective than a Ghost is if Protoss has sight advantage (which allows feedback) which is impossible because of scans killing observers easily. This is best seen in the only TSL3 game between MC and ThorZain on TDA. MC was playing masterfully, actually countering everything TZ did, yet he was starting to fall behind because of ghosts. Then TZ made a mistake with his ghosts, leaving them too close to the ramp at the exit of MC's natural. This allowed HTs to feedback safely, and won MC a crucial encounter. Without sight advantage, you cannot beat Ghosts. It's basically because Ghosts are faster, and considering AoE, EMP has the longer range, so they control the pace of the GvHT balance because of their micro advantage Man, if only Protoss had other units ghosts didn't counter so well, maybe a giant unit that had siege range and did a lot of damage, or another unit that requires a lot of DPS to kill, has much more life than shields, and can be massed easily... Oh well, guess ghosts are just too good without these units... LOL.... You understand the standard composition to counter colossi includes vikings too right? You understand that once ghosts shoot their EMP it doesn't matter if they die right? You realize you're stating ghosts are useless against colo when they actually deal 100 instant damage to them as well, while also hitting all units below them right? God... people can be so shortsighted... Again, try to kill with Ghosts.
I can just cloak my ghosts and run up to the slower High Templars and Snipe them, or better yet, just right click on them with my 20 Damage to Light units, unupgraded.
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On October 26 2011 09:36 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:35 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:34 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:30 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:24 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:15 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:04 Snaphoo wrote:On October 26 2011 09:00 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. I just...completely agree.... Watch some GSL on GomTvT instead of deciding that your experiences in Platinum should guide Blizz balancing decisions. I'm glad you feel qualified to judge how good Korean Ps are-- could it be, though, that you just need to learn to play better against Protoss and that in fact T has a balance advantage over P? I would trust the experience of GSL Code S results since GAME RELEASE with the exception of MC over that of the ladder experience of a random TL poster. mjwNshake 863 (master Terran) Milkshake 558 (master Protoss) Who said I was Platinum ? I have the right to agree to something. Please stop talking about leagues, it's stupid, especially witht he fact that I'm master with both races, so I think i can be quite objective. In face, PvT is quite balanced, but the metagame is just a huge disorder, where it's batlle between mass Ghosts/Vikings and mass Colossus/HT. Ghosts own HTs hard in almost any possible situation. The only way a HT can be more effective than a Ghost is if Protoss has sight advantage (which allows feedback) which is impossible because of scans killing observers easily. This also means cloak is a massive advantage for the ghost. This is best seen in the only TSL3 game between MC and ThorZain on TDA. MC was playing masterfully, actually countering everything TZ did, yet he was starting to fall behind because of ghosts. Then TZ made a mistake with his ghosts, leaving them too close to the ramp at the exit of MC's natural. This allowed HTs to feedback safely, and won MC a crucial encounter. Without sight advantage, you cannot beat Ghosts. It's basically because Ghosts are faster, and considering AoE, EMP has the longer range, so they control the pace of the GvHT balance because of their micro advantage I totally agree with you with the fact that Ghosts are more valuable units than HT's. But HT's are stronger, because they do AoE damage ( stop saying that EMP does damage, please ), and they can Feedback, which are too very offensive spells. Aswell, they are a bit cheaper. Now, this is really hard to argue. It's not the same type of unit. HT are really strong when they are with an army, but Ghosts are better individual. EMP is clearly very strong. But man, Colossus + HT + Archon + Mass Zealot is almost impossible to beat as Terran, even if you have a very good micro. The problem is that Protoss is too limited in his actions to do a good fight. 100 shield damage is A LOT of damage. In AoE as well. And no... GSL has taught us many times that endgame archon/chargelot/colo is by no means unbeatable, all it takes is a decent EMP. Protoss need things like Warp Prism micro to avoid this skill (which is not really inherently bad, but is a testament of how strong EMP is) EMP still DOESN'T KILL. Sigh........ Doesn't matter it doesn't kill, it's still damage..... shield damage doesn't kill... it's still damage... this is sad....
I stated this earlier. People just don't get it.....
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On October 26 2011 09:36 Nightshake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:35 ForeverSleep wrote:On October 26 2011 09:32 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:31 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:28 aksfjh wrote:On October 26 2011 09:24 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:15 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:04 Snaphoo wrote:On October 26 2011 09:00 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. I just...completely agree.... Watch some GSL on GomTvT instead of deciding that your experiences in Platinum should guide Blizz balancing decisions. I'm glad you feel qualified to judge how good Korean Ps are-- could it be, though, that you just need to learn to play better against Protoss and that in fact T has a balance advantage over P? I would trust the experience of GSL Code S results since GAME RELEASE with the exception of MC over that of the ladder experience of a random TL poster. mjwNshake 863 (master Terran) Milkshake 558 (master Protoss) Who said I was Platinum ? I have the right to agree to something. Please stop talking about leagues, it's stupid, especially witht he fact that I'm master with both races, so I think i can be quite objective. In face, PvT is quite balanced, but the metagame is just a huge disorder, where it's batlle between mass Ghosts/Vikings and mass Colossus/HT. Ghosts own HTs hard in almost any possible situation. The only way a HT can be more effective than a Ghost is if Protoss has sight advantage (which allows feedback) which is impossible because of scans killing observers easily. This is best seen in the only TSL3 game between MC and ThorZain on TDA. MC was playing masterfully, actually countering everything TZ did, yet he was starting to fall behind because of ghosts. Then TZ made a mistake with his ghosts, leaving them too close to the ramp at the exit of MC's natural. This allowed HTs to feedback safely, and won MC a crucial encounter. Without sight advantage, you cannot beat Ghosts. It's basically because Ghosts are faster, and considering AoE, EMP has the longer range, so they control the pace of the GvHT balance because of their micro advantage Man, if only Protoss had other units ghosts didn't counter so well, maybe a giant unit that had siege range and did a lot of damage, or another unit that requires a lot of DPS to kill, has much more life than shields, and can be massed easily... Oh well, guess ghosts are just too good without these units... LOL.... You understand the standard composition to counter colossi includes vikings too right? You understand that once ghosts shoot their EMP it doesn't matter if they die right? You realize you're stating ghosts are useless against colo when they actually deal 100 instant damage to them as well, while also hitting all units below them right? God... people can be so shortsighted... Again, try to kill with Ghosts. so you make only ghosts every games? Something is wrong with your play, I think Ht can kil with Storm, as Ghosts can not. I think this i pretty easy to understand.
so I should make only HTs every game? Is that your point?
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I'm done now.
mordk you are completely out of arguments. I'm going to bed now, and I want to see how Terrans will deal with this patch.
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On October 26 2011 09:20 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:15 Lazerlike42 wrote:On October 26 2011 09:12 petro1987 wrote:On October 26 2011 09:03 DoubleReed wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder.
I was not aware that protoss are dominating outside of korea. I actually thought things were pretty even outside of korea. If by even you mean that Jinro, Thorzain and the occasional foreigner T are being bashed by good foreigner Ps (Mana, Sase, etc.), then yeah, it's completely even. Look at all the recent tournament results, check the NASL standings, etc.,... Terran is starting to have problems with Protoss. Even without this patch,I do not think there will many Terrans succeeding in tournaments moving forward. Terran has started to be nerfed, and at the same time Protoss players have started to figure out how to play stronger games. o.o Are you kidding? Come on now. GSL >>> NASL as far as gameplay goes. You need to watch some Code S Code T, my friend. But then again, you won't see many Protoss struggling against Terrans there, either. Why? + Show Spoiler +Because there are barely any Protoss players in the best league in the entire world. Out of curiosity, do you honestly think that the ghost didn't need to be nerfed at all? From what I've read on this thread, the overwhelming response is "Well, that's a start..."
Arguing about Code S being full of Terrans is retarded considering how Code S works towards seeds and stuff.. afaik its pretty "easy" to get seeded into next code S season without being dropped to up & down matches. Stop talking about terran doing good in tournament plz. Last PvT that made me laugh was Gatored vs Polt at IEM NY...
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Range-Upgrade for EMP pls. If a 2-3 Storm hit a Terran-Ball ...game over -.- qq
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I've pretty much lost the little faith i had in blizzard's "balance" team. People can make legit arguments against EMP even though it's not as bad as people make out late game vs mass 3/0/3 1a brainless chargelot remax. But the cheaper upgrades...yeah...this is not a good idea blizzard.
And if it ever was, why the hell would they not do this same shit for mech upgrades...or cost reduce the armory...duh...mech viable tvp voila.
I'm not looking forward to more lategame tvps that end up with mass chargelot/archon remaxes raping everything after a battle is won/lost, and having an upgrade disadvantage for the entire game solely because my race can't speed up their upgrades.
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On October 26 2011 09:36 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:35 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:34 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:30 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:24 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:15 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:04 Snaphoo wrote:On October 26 2011 09:00 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. I just...completely agree.... Watch some GSL on GomTvT instead of deciding that your experiences in Platinum should guide Blizz balancing decisions. I'm glad you feel qualified to judge how good Korean Ps are-- could it be, though, that you just need to learn to play better against Protoss and that in fact T has a balance advantage over P? I would trust the experience of GSL Code S results since GAME RELEASE with the exception of MC over that of the ladder experience of a random TL poster. mjwNshake 863 (master Terran) Milkshake 558 (master Protoss) Who said I was Platinum ? I have the right to agree to something. Please stop talking about leagues, it's stupid, especially witht he fact that I'm master with both races, so I think i can be quite objective. In face, PvT is quite balanced, but the metagame is just a huge disorder, where it's batlle between mass Ghosts/Vikings and mass Colossus/HT. Ghosts own HTs hard in almost any possible situation. The only way a HT can be more effective than a Ghost is if Protoss has sight advantage (which allows feedback) which is impossible because of scans killing observers easily. This also means cloak is a massive advantage for the ghost. This is best seen in the only TSL3 game between MC and ThorZain on TDA. MC was playing masterfully, actually countering everything TZ did, yet he was starting to fall behind because of ghosts. Then TZ made a mistake with his ghosts, leaving them too close to the ramp at the exit of MC's natural. This allowed HTs to feedback safely, and won MC a crucial encounter. Without sight advantage, you cannot beat Ghosts. It's basically because Ghosts are faster, and considering AoE, EMP has the longer range, so they control the pace of the GvHT balance because of their micro advantage I totally agree with you with the fact that Ghosts are more valuable units than HT's. But HT's are stronger, because they do AoE damage ( stop saying that EMP does damage, please ), and they can Feedback, which are too very offensive spells. Aswell, they are a bit cheaper. Now, this is really hard to argue. It's not the same type of unit. HT are really strong when they are with an army, but Ghosts are better individual. EMP is clearly very strong. But man, Colossus + HT + Archon + Mass Zealot is almost impossible to beat as Terran, even if you have a very good micro. The problem is that Protoss is too limited in his actions to do a good fight. 100 shield damage is A LOT of damage. In AoE as well. And no... GSL has taught us many times that endgame archon/chargelot/colo is by no means unbeatable, all it takes is a decent EMP. Protoss need things like Warp Prism micro to avoid this skill (which is not really inherently bad, but is a testament of how strong EMP is) EMP still DOESN'T KILL. Sigh........ Doesn't matter it doesn't kill, it's still damage..... shield damage doesn't kill... it's still damage... this is sad....
EMP still does 1000+ dmg when you carpet bomb the whole fucking army. But man it doesn't kill so fuck EMP needs buff.
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On October 26 2011 09:38 dgdsg wrote:
Range-Upgrade for EMP pls -.-
Cloak and creep up on 'em.
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On October 26 2011 09:39 ayaz2810 wrote:Cloak and creep up on 'em.
I think (hope) he was trolling..
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On October 26 2011 09:38 ForeverSleep wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:36 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:35 ForeverSleep wrote:On October 26 2011 09:32 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:31 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:28 aksfjh wrote:On October 26 2011 09:24 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:15 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:04 Snaphoo wrote:On October 26 2011 09:00 Nightshake wrote:
[quote]
I just...completely agree....
Watch some GSL on GomTvT instead of deciding that your experiences in Platinum should guide Blizz balancing decisions. I'm glad you feel qualified to judge how good Korean Ps are-- could it be, though, that you just need to learn to play better against Protoss and that in fact T has a balance advantage over P? I would trust the experience of GSL Code S results since GAME RELEASE with the exception of MC over that of the ladder experience of a random TL poster. mjwNshake 863 (master Terran) Milkshake 558 (master Protoss) Who said I was Platinum ? I have the right to agree to something. Please stop talking about leagues, it's stupid, especially witht he fact that I'm master with both races, so I think i can be quite objective. In face, PvT is quite balanced, but the metagame is just a huge disorder, where it's batlle between mass Ghosts/Vikings and mass Colossus/HT. Ghosts own HTs hard in almost any possible situation. The only way a HT can be more effective than a Ghost is if Protoss has sight advantage (which allows feedback) which is impossible because of scans killing observers easily. This is best seen in the only TSL3 game between MC and ThorZain on TDA. MC was playing masterfully, actually countering everything TZ did, yet he was starting to fall behind because of ghosts. Then TZ made a mistake with his ghosts, leaving them too close to the ramp at the exit of MC's natural. This allowed HTs to feedback safely, and won MC a crucial encounter. Without sight advantage, you cannot beat Ghosts. It's basically because Ghosts are faster, and considering AoE, EMP has the longer range, so they control the pace of the GvHT balance because of their micro advantage Man, if only Protoss had other units ghosts didn't counter so well, maybe a giant unit that had siege range and did a lot of damage, or another unit that requires a lot of DPS to kill, has much more life than shields, and can be massed easily... Oh well, guess ghosts are just too good without these units... LOL.... You understand the standard composition to counter colossi includes vikings too right? You understand that once ghosts shoot their EMP it doesn't matter if they die right? You realize you're stating ghosts are useless against colo when they actually deal 100 instant damage to them as well, while also hitting all units below them right? God... people can be so shortsighted... Again, try to kill with Ghosts. so you make only ghosts every games? Something is wrong with your play, I think Ht can kil with Storm, as Ghosts can not. I think this i pretty easy to understand. so I should make only HTs every game? Is that your point?
Maybe not. But, you can fucking kill a whole army with storm.
I never kill an army with EMP, can you understand it ? Good night.
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Would have preferred a reduction in emp range rather than radius but it's still better than nothing. I look forward to the day late game PvT is no longer reduced ht vs ghost battles.
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On October 26 2011 09:31 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:28 aksfjh wrote:On October 26 2011 09:24 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:15 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:04 Snaphoo wrote:On October 26 2011 09:00 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. I just...completely agree.... Watch some GSL on GomTvT instead of deciding that your experiences in Platinum should guide Blizz balancing decisions. I'm glad you feel qualified to judge how good Korean Ps are-- could it be, though, that you just need to learn to play better against Protoss and that in fact T has a balance advantage over P? I would trust the experience of GSL Code S results since GAME RELEASE with the exception of MC over that of the ladder experience of a random TL poster. mjwNshake 863 (master Terran) Milkshake 558 (master Protoss) Who said I was Platinum ? I have the right to agree to something. Please stop talking about leagues, it's stupid, especially witht he fact that I'm master with both races, so I think i can be quite objective. In face, PvT is quite balanced, but the metagame is just a huge disorder, where it's batlle between mass Ghosts/Vikings and mass Colossus/HT. Ghosts own HTs hard in almost any possible situation. The only way a HT can be more effective than a Ghost is if Protoss has sight advantage (which allows feedback) which is impossible because of scans killing observers easily. This is best seen in the only TSL3 game between MC and ThorZain on TDA. MC was playing masterfully, actually countering everything TZ did, yet he was starting to fall behind because of ghosts. Then TZ made a mistake with his ghosts, leaving them too close to the ramp at the exit of MC's natural. This allowed HTs to feedback safely, and won MC a crucial encounter. Without sight advantage, you cannot beat Ghosts. It's basically because Ghosts are faster, and considering AoE, EMP has the longer range, so they control the pace of the GvHT balance because of their micro advantage Man, if only Protoss had other units ghosts didn't counter so well, maybe a giant unit that had siege range and did a lot of damage, or another unit that requires a lot of DPS to kill, has much more life than shields, and can be massed easily... Oh well, guess ghosts are just too good without these units... LOL.... You understand the standard composition to counter colossi includes vikings too right? You understand that once ghosts shoot their EMP it doesn't matter if they die right? You realize you're stating ghosts are useless against colo when they actually deal 100 instant damage to them as well, while also hitting all units below them right? God... people can be so shortsighted...
Maybe if there were units that could prevent vikings from getting too close to colossi. Some unit that did AoE damage at ~9 range, maybe with other units which are closer that can pick off stray vikings. Of course, it would be unfair if these units just rolled over whatever the Terran put out, but maybe if micro or positioning was required, it would be a useful composition... But I guess Blizz just wants Terran to win all the time!
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On October 26 2011 09:38 Nightshake wrote:
I'm done now.
mordk you are completely out of arguments. I'm going to bed now, and I want to see how Terrans will deal with this patch.
God... you really are annoying. Let's not say it does damage then, just to suit your trollish mind. It "brings protoss units closer to death, by a maximum of 100 shield points". Happy?...................................................
This is really making me facepalm dude..... Really.
I suppose that you also understand that unless your army is composed entirely of blink stalkers, you don't escape as protoss.
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On October 26 2011 09:39 ayaz2810 wrote:Cloak and creep up on 'em.
In Bronze maybe, where the tosses don't have Observers with their army.
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Ughhhh, wrong way nerfing emp. If anything the should have had diminishing effects from the centre of the radius outwards. But instead, they nerf the radius of emp. Now making feedback castable before u can get off an emp...........
Sometimes blizzard......... I wonder.......
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EPT
