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Player can get creative with triple forge play for fast 3/3/3.
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On October 26 2011 09:24 Nazeron wrote:
hmm, the shiled upgrades i can see why but the ground and armor upgrade 2/3 are weird
I think it is to allow protoss to upgrade and get 1 or 2 extra units out. Thereby making the army more cost effective. This would help get it on par with the other races.
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On October 26 2011 09:23 xTrim wrote:
GREAT NOW I AM EMPING A SINGLE INFESTOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't play TvZ, but I'm pretty sure the range is big enough to hit multiple infestors if the Zerg player groups them... and don't Terrans tend to snipe infestors anyway?
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On October 26 2011 09:23 xTrim wrote:
GREAT NOW I AM EMPING A SINGLE INFESTOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What? Why EMP an infestor when you can snipe it? Lack of micro? Or just plain lazy because you have the easy AOE button?
Get real, Protoss players have to click Feedback on each and every infestor, and you Terrans have the AOE mana drain spell. Have we complained about Feedback not being AOE?
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I'm a zerg player. I get the shield change, no one really got it unless they're doing some weird air build or had nothing else to spend their money on. Without getting into the whole TvP drama, why exactly did this happen? Did people feel the need to have to chrono the upgrade because they were just a tad more expensive or is there some TvP balance issue I'm unaware of?
Also isn't reducing the emp radius just fixing bad splitting and fixing bad play on protoss' part? I'm confused, I thought blizzard wanted to get away from the "death ball" of units, not encourage it.
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On October 26 2011 09:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:23 xTrim wrote:
GREAT NOW I AM EMPING A SINGLE INFESTOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't play TvZ, but I'm pretty sure the range is big enough to hit multiple infestors if the Zerg player groups them... and don't Terrans tend to snipe infestors anyway?
Provided there aren't any targets of higher value, I would snipe the shit out of infestors. Every shot would give me goosebumps.
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On October 26 2011 09:18 nvs. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:17 Mehukannu wrote:On October 26 2011 09:11 nvs. wrote:On October 26 2011 09:10 Mehukannu wrote:On October 26 2011 09:04 nvs. wrote:On October 26 2011 09:03 biaxiong wrote:On October 26 2011 09:02 winthrop wrote:
what about psi storm?
Nerf already beta and amulet. 375 M and 375 Gas total savings, I would consider shield upgrades now. Ya, I forgot amulet too. Psi storm has already been nerfed to 1.5 and lost its energy upgrade. Let's leave it at that. Yeah, it's not like instant storm anywhere where you have pylon was any good at all... I never said it wasn't? Putting words into my mouth? Classic C- argumentation. Just felt that you were implying it. I don't even get why people even bring up the whole khaydarin amulet nerf, that thing was OP as crap. even blizzard wondered why they even let HT have it back when it was removed. Which Dustin answered to kennigit in the interview at blizzcon 2011. The point was that people keep saying Storm was never nerfed and needs to be nerfed if EMP is going to be, but they forget it has actually been nerfed 3 times already. Had nothing to do with how powerful warp-in storm was.
Fair enough, but was storm nerfed 3 times? I thought it had been nerfed just 2 times (storm size and amulet) or am I just missing something? O.o
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On October 26 2011 09:26 PikaXchU wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:23 xTrim wrote:
GREAT NOW I AM EMPING A SINGLE INFESTOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What? Why EMP an infestor when you can snipe it? Lack of micro? Or just plain lazy because you have the easy AOE button? Get real, Protoss players have to click Feedback on each and every infestor, and you Terrans have the AOE mana drain spell. Have we complained about Feedback not being AOE?
I know what you've been shaving with.
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On October 26 2011 09:24 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:15 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:04 Snaphoo wrote:On October 26 2011 09:00 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. I just...completely agree.... Watch some GSL on GomTvT instead of deciding that your experiences in Platinum should guide Blizz balancing decisions. I'm glad you feel qualified to judge how good Korean Ps are-- could it be, though, that you just need to learn to play better against Protoss and that in fact T has a balance advantage over P? I would trust the experience of GSL Code S results since GAME RELEASE with the exception of MC over that of the ladder experience of a random TL poster. mjwNshake 863 (master Terran) Milkshake 558 (master Protoss) Who said I was Platinum ? I have the right to agree to something. Please stop talking about leagues, it's stupid, especially witht he fact that I'm master with both races, so I think i can be quite objective. In face, PvT is quite balanced, but the metagame is just a huge disorder, where it's batlle between mass Ghosts/Vikings and mass Colossus/HT. Ghosts own HTs hard in almost any possible situation. The only way a HT can be more effective than a Ghost is if Protoss has sight advantage (which allows feedback) which is impossible because of scans killing observers easily. This is best seen in the only TSL3 game between MC and ThorZain on TDA. MC was playing masterfully, actually countering everything TZ did, yet he was starting to fall behind because of ghosts. Then TZ made a mistake with his ghosts, leaving them too close to the ramp at the exit of MC's natural. This allowed HTs to feedback safely, and won MC a crucial encounter. Without sight advantage, you cannot beat Ghosts. It's basically because Ghosts are faster, and considering AoE, EMP has the longer range, so they control the pace of the GvHT balance because of their micro advantage
Man, if only Protoss had other units ghosts didn't counter so well, maybe a giant unit that had siege range and did a lot of damage, or another unit that requires a lot of DPS to kill, has much more life than shields, and can be massed easily... Oh well, guess ghosts are just too good without these units...
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Will the emp nerf actually do anything?
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I would have liked the range of EMP and Feedback to be made the same, either both 10 or both 9, so Protoss has a chance counter to ghosts, rather than hoping the emp doesnt hit every unit with a radius nerf. But it's clearly a step in the right direction, glad Blizzard has realized emp is a huge problem.
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Holy balls. This is amazing.
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On October 26 2011 09:26 PikaXchU wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:23 xTrim wrote:
GREAT NOW I AM EMPING A SINGLE INFESTOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What? Why EMP an infestor when you can snipe it? Lack of micro? Or just plain lazy because you have the easy AOE button? Get real, Protoss players have to click Feedback on each and every infestor, and you Terrans have the AOE mana drain spell. Have we complained about Feedback not being AOE?
Protoss can auto cast it by clicking on the mini map.
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I like what I see from this. Chargelot, Archon!!!
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On October 26 2011 09:27 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:18 nvs. wrote:On October 26 2011 09:17 Mehukannu wrote:On October 26 2011 09:11 nvs. wrote:On October 26 2011 09:10 Mehukannu wrote:On October 26 2011 09:04 nvs. wrote:On October 26 2011 09:03 biaxiong wrote:On October 26 2011 09:02 winthrop wrote:
what about psi storm?
Nerf already beta and amulet. 375 M and 375 Gas total savings, I would consider shield upgrades now. Ya, I forgot amulet too. Psi storm has already been nerfed to 1.5 and lost its energy upgrade. Let's leave it at that. Yeah, it's not like instant storm anywhere where you have pylon was any good at all... I never said it wasn't? Putting words into my mouth? Classic C- argumentation. Just felt that you were implying it. I don't even get why people even bring up the whole khaydarin amulet nerf, that thing was OP as crap. even blizzard wondered why they even let HT have it back when it was removed. Which Dustin answered to kennigit in the interview at blizzcon 2011. The point was that people keep saying Storm was never nerfed and needs to be nerfed if EMP is going to be, but they forget it has actually been nerfed 3 times already. Had nothing to do with how powerful warp-in storm was. Fair enough, but was storm nerfed 3 times? I thought it had been nerfed just 2 times (storm size and amulet) or am I just missing something? O.o
Damage as well in early beta. 
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On October 26 2011 06:27 Jimbo77 wrote:
StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty - Patch 1.4.2
Really strange, for what reason Protoss ground weapons and armor cost has changed. (for Shields OK)
And why there is no reduction to FG radius along with EMP?
OP shouldn't delve into discussion of what needs a nerf (read: What is OP) and what doesn't.
Clearly in this patch they're trying to fix TvP. Win rates for PvZ are fairly steady, Win rates for TvZ are fairly steady. That is why they didn't feel the need to "fix," (In your opinion) Fungal Growth.
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On October 26 2011 09:24 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:15 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:04 Snaphoo wrote:On October 26 2011 09:00 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. I just...completely agree.... Watch some GSL on GomTvT instead of deciding that your experiences in Platinum should guide Blizz balancing decisions. I'm glad you feel qualified to judge how good Korean Ps are-- could it be, though, that you just need to learn to play better against Protoss and that in fact T has a balance advantage over P? I would trust the experience of GSL Code S results since GAME RELEASE with the exception of MC over that of the ladder experience of a random TL poster. mjwNshake 863 (master Terran) Milkshake 558 (master Protoss) Who said I was Platinum ? I have the right to agree to something. Please stop talking about leagues, it's stupid, especially witht he fact that I'm master with both races, so I think i can be quite objective. In face, PvT is quite balanced, but the metagame is just a huge disorder, where it's batlle between mass Ghosts/Vikings and mass Colossus/HT. Ghosts own HTs hard in almost any possible situation. The only way a HT can be more effective than a Ghost is if Protoss has sight advantage (which allows feedback) which is impossible because of scans killing observers easily. This also means cloak is a massive advantage for the ghost. This is best seen in the only TSL3 game between MC and ThorZain on TDA. MC was playing masterfully, actually countering everything TZ did, yet he was starting to fall behind because of ghosts. Then TZ made a mistake with his ghosts, leaving them too close to the ramp at the exit of MC's natural. This allowed HTs to feedback safely, and won MC a crucial encounter. Without sight advantage, you cannot beat Ghosts. It's basically because Ghosts are faster, and considering AoE, EMP has the longer range, so they control the pace of the GvHT balance because of their micro advantage
I totally agree with you with the fact that Ghosts are more valuable units than HT's. But HT's are stronger, because they do AoE damage ( stop saying that EMP does damage, please ), and they can Feedback, which are too very offensive spells. Aswell, they are a bit cheaper. Now, this is really hard to argue.
It's not the same type of unit. HT are really strong when they are with an army, but Ghosts are better individual. EMP is clearly very strong. But man, Colossus + HT + Archon + Mass Zealot is almost impossible to beat as Terran, even if you have a very good micro. The problem is that Protoss is too limited in his actions to do a good fight.
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On October 26 2011 09:28 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:24 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:15 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:04 Snaphoo wrote:On October 26 2011 09:00 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. I just...completely agree.... Watch some GSL on GomTvT instead of deciding that your experiences in Platinum should guide Blizz balancing decisions. I'm glad you feel qualified to judge how good Korean Ps are-- could it be, though, that you just need to learn to play better against Protoss and that in fact T has a balance advantage over P? I would trust the experience of GSL Code S results since GAME RELEASE with the exception of MC over that of the ladder experience of a random TL poster. mjwNshake 863 (master Terran) Milkshake 558 (master Protoss) Who said I was Platinum ? I have the right to agree to something. Please stop talking about leagues, it's stupid, especially witht he fact that I'm master with both races, so I think i can be quite objective. In face, PvT is quite balanced, but the metagame is just a huge disorder, where it's batlle between mass Ghosts/Vikings and mass Colossus/HT. Ghosts own HTs hard in almost any possible situation. The only way a HT can be more effective than a Ghost is if Protoss has sight advantage (which allows feedback) which is impossible because of scans killing observers easily. This is best seen in the only TSL3 game between MC and ThorZain on TDA. MC was playing masterfully, actually countering everything TZ did, yet he was starting to fall behind because of ghosts. Then TZ made a mistake with his ghosts, leaving them too close to the ramp at the exit of MC's natural. This allowed HTs to feedback safely, and won MC a crucial encounter. Without sight advantage, you cannot beat Ghosts. It's basically because Ghosts are faster, and considering AoE, EMP has the longer range, so they control the pace of the GvHT balance because of their micro advantage Man, if only Protoss had other units ghosts didn't counter so well, maybe a giant unit that had siege range and did a lot of damage, or another unit that requires a lot of DPS to kill, has much more life than shields, and can be massed easily... Oh well, guess ghosts are just too good without these units...
You do realize that EMP can still take 40% of a colossus HP bar right?
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On October 26 2011 09:28 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:24 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:15 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:04 Snaphoo wrote:On October 26 2011 09:00 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. I just...completely agree.... Watch some GSL on GomTvT instead of deciding that your experiences in Platinum should guide Blizz balancing decisions. I'm glad you feel qualified to judge how good Korean Ps are-- could it be, though, that you just need to learn to play better against Protoss and that in fact T has a balance advantage over P? I would trust the experience of GSL Code S results since GAME RELEASE with the exception of MC over that of the ladder experience of a random TL poster. mjwNshake 863 (master Terran) Milkshake 558 (master Protoss) Who said I was Platinum ? I have the right to agree to something. Please stop talking about leagues, it's stupid, especially witht he fact that I'm master with both races, so I think i can be quite objective. In face, PvT is quite balanced, but the metagame is just a huge disorder, where it's batlle between mass Ghosts/Vikings and mass Colossus/HT. Ghosts own HTs hard in almost any possible situation. The only way a HT can be more effective than a Ghost is if Protoss has sight advantage (which allows feedback) which is impossible because of scans killing observers easily. This is best seen in the only TSL3 game between MC and ThorZain on TDA. MC was playing masterfully, actually countering everything TZ did, yet he was starting to fall behind because of ghosts. Then TZ made a mistake with his ghosts, leaving them too close to the ramp at the exit of MC's natural. This allowed HTs to feedback safely, and won MC a crucial encounter. Without sight advantage, you cannot beat Ghosts. It's basically because Ghosts are faster, and considering AoE, EMP has the longer range, so they control the pace of the GvHT balance because of their micro advantage Man, if only Protoss had other units ghosts didn't counter so well, maybe a giant unit that had siege range and did a lot of damage, or another unit that requires a lot of DPS to kill, has much more life than shields, and can be massed easily... Oh well, guess ghosts are just too good without these units...
LOL.... You understand the standard composition to counter colossi includes vikings too right? You understand that once ghosts shoot their EMP it doesn't matter if they die right? You realize you're stating ghosts are useless against colo when they actually deal 100 instant damage to them as well, while also hitting all units below them right?
God... people can be so shortsighted...
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weeee I <3 ups. As a toss player this patch contains nothing but rainbows and kittens :D
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EPT
