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I really feel that HD needs to become a top player if he wants to tell the audience that the players are doing things wrong. Instead of ignorantly saying how sub par a player is playing or trying to predict a build when its obvious that you don't play starcraft that much, just stick with play by play and pumping the crowd up. there were numerous times where painuser knew that you were wrong but he didn't say anything because he didn't want to look like a douche by correcting you all the time.
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I feel in general no one should speak as if they are in a position to make suggestions to the players.
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On April 10 2012 04:15 Sspinner wrote:
I feel like every time HD says something, Painuser has to take the time to correct it and show how it is wrong. Painuser is a great caster and had he been paired with someone else I think it would have been much better.
indeed, it showed. at times it even seemed to me like PainUser was irritated at having HD saying so many wrong things. he even seemed to be taking slight jabs at him in the end.
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On April 10 2012 13:14 latan wrote:
I feel in general no one should speak as if they are in a position to make suggestions to the players.
That sounds retarded because the casters have full information so if they were at all competent they can make suggestions all the time.
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The game on antiga with nestea vs squirtle was simply painful to listen to.
Nestea 11(10?) pools as blind "counter" to FFE.
Squirtle gate expands as blind counter to 3 hatch.
Gold base was a follow up to get a huge advantage and 2base allin vs the FFE. Cancelled when he saw the gate expand. Too easy to understand the whole situation if you understand the meta. Yet, the casters went on, and on, and on about how "I can't understand what he's doing", etc etc.
If i was watching the stream, I would have muted it. Being in there, I could only hold my head in my hands.
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People saying a caster predicted something but was wrong.. I dont think you know what you are talking about. Casters mostly phrase it like "we could/might see", "wer most likely gonna see", etc. And that is just fine, and if it doesnt develop like so then there is no harm in that. "X will open like this and this will happen", no, no caster does that.
Making little sense or being wrong in analysis is something that occurs though, surely every caster has had his bad moments in this regard. Please state some specific examples when you complain on a certain caster in this regard, otherwise how cant we know you arent the one who got it wrong? I can imagine most people watching the casting belong beneath NA GM or EU high masters and thus arent qualified to be given the benefit of the doubt, so state specific examples or im just gonna think you are some gold level player looking to rag on the caster (HD) many people once decided to be somewhat "lame" compared to their already established casting favourites.
Personally i mostly have a sc2 stream on while doing other things so i cant say that ive payed too much attention to any specific caster, when i did though i found HD/Painuser to be absolutely fine. This casting fixation will hopefully become less of an issue if and when the game gets better. (When i see an intense BW match im excited by the game itself and im having a great time even though the commentators speak korean which i dont understand).
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On April 10 2012 13:19 Audemed wrote:
The game on antiga with nestea vs squirtle was simply painful to listen to.
Nestea 11(10?) pools as blind "counter" to FFE.
Squirtle gate expands as blind counter to 3 hatch.
Gold base was a follow up to get a huge advantage and 2base allin vs the FFE. Cancelled when he saw the gate expand. Too easy to understand the whole situation if you understand the meta. Yet, the casters went on, and on, and on about how "I can't understand what he's doing", etc etc.
If i was watching the stream, I would have muted it. Being in there, I could only hold my head in my hands.
You are going to have to be a lot more clear then that. Are you saying the casters didnt understand what the zerg was doing in a situation where the zerg placed his first hatch at the gold but cansled his hatch once he saw that the toss had opend a gate exe?
That is the only way i can interpret what you just wrote.
If that was the scenario then the casters are perfectly right to question the zerg. You always want to open up a fast exe vs toss regardless of what he does and you never cansel it (unless the toss went fast forge and has put up cannons to deny it but that is something a zerg should never let happen). Haven taken the gold first and having the toss being aggressive vs it is actually a very good scenario for zerg, that early gold makes zerg able to get out a scary amount of units or even spines with few drones (zerg transfers about 6-7 drones to the gold and then says "bring it on"). It doesnt matter that its placed where it is placed at Antiga the gold advantage still makes up for it by bar. If you are refering to a later timing by the toss then the gold will have played out its advantage already in that case aswell. If the zerg canseled his first hatch at the gold in this scenario i would say his doing a very questionable move. And even if canseling a first hatch for some reason would have been necessary; You dont open with a build where you are forced to cansel your first hatch if your opponent opens a very common strategy. That in itself is a bronze leauge level choice of strategy that casters by all rights should rag on.
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HD, you are awesome dude. Hope to see you casting many more games. You and Wolf are the best.
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On April 10 2012 13:42 Babru wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 13:19 Audemed wrote:
The game on antiga with nestea vs squirtle was simply painful to listen to.
Nestea 11(10?) pools as blind "counter" to FFE.
Squirtle gate expands as blind counter to 3 hatch.
Gold base was a follow up to get a huge advantage and 2base allin vs the FFE. Cancelled when he saw the gate expand. Too easy to understand the whole situation if you understand the meta. Yet, the casters went on, and on, and on about how "I can't understand what he's doing", etc etc.
If i was watching the stream, I would have muted it. Being in there, I could only hold my head in my hands. You are going to have to be a lot more clear then that. Are you saying the casters didnt understand what the zerg was doing in a situation where the zerg placed his first hatch at the gold but cansled his hatch once he saw that the toss had opend a gate exe? That is the only way i can interpret what you just wrote. If that was the scenario then the casters are perfectly right to question the zerg. You always want to open up a fast exe vs toss regardless of what he does and you never cansel it (unless the toss went fast forge and has put up cannons to deny it but that is something a zerg should never let happen). Haven taken the gold first and having the toss being aggressive vs it is actually a very good scenario for zerg, that early gold makes zerg able to get out a scary amount of units or even spines with few drones (zerg transfers about 6-7 drones to the gold and then says "bring it on"). It doesnt matter that its placed where it is placed at Antiga the gold advantage still makes up for it by bar. If you are refering to a later timing by the toss then the gold will have played out its advantage already in that case aswell. If Nestea canseled his first hatch at the gold in this scenario i would say his doing a silver league level move. And even if that would have been the case; You dont open with a build where you are forced to cansel your first hatch if your opponent opens a very common strategy. That in itself is a bronze leauge level choice of strategy if that would have been the case.
audemed is right. you're wrong. you cant defend the gold if the toss opens gateways without expanding. don't talk about what you don't know.
also, audemed i DID have to mute the stream, i could not stand listening to that game anymore. the whole time they thought it was a 10 pool and it was an 11 overpool... extremely easy to see, they should pay more attention or learn more about the game imo.
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as a top master on korea and GM on EU (and previously 2 accounts in NA gm at the sametime)
you guys did fine, some mishaps here and there but those are things you only fix by continuing to play and cast.
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On April 10 2012 13:51 Malstriks wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 13:42 Babru wrote:On April 10 2012 13:19 Audemed wrote:
The game on antiga with nestea vs squirtle was simply painful to listen to.
Nestea 11(10?) pools as blind "counter" to FFE.
Squirtle gate expands as blind counter to 3 hatch.
Gold base was a follow up to get a huge advantage and 2base allin vs the FFE. Cancelled when he saw the gate expand. Too easy to understand the whole situation if you understand the meta. Yet, the casters went on, and on, and on about how "I can't understand what he's doing", etc etc.
If i was watching the stream, I would have muted it. Being in there, I could only hold my head in my hands. You are going to have to be a lot more clear then that. Are you saying the casters didnt understand what the zerg was doing in a situation where the zerg placed his first hatch at the gold but cansled his hatch once he saw that the toss had opend a gate exe? That is the only way i can interpret what you just wrote. If that was the scenario then the casters are perfectly right to question the zerg. You always want to open up a fast exe vs toss regardless of what he does and you never cansel it (unless the toss went fast forge and has put up cannons to deny it but that is something a zerg should never let happen). Haven taken the gold first and having the toss being aggressive vs it is actually a very good scenario for zerg, that early gold makes zerg able to get out a scary amount of units or even spines with few drones (zerg transfers about 6-7 drones to the gold and then says "bring it on"). It doesnt matter that its placed where it is placed at Antiga the gold advantage still makes up for it by bar. If you are refering to a later timing by the toss then the gold will have played out its advantage already in that case aswell. If Nestea canseled his first hatch at the gold in this scenario i would say his doing a silver league level move. And even if that would have been the case; You dont open with a build where you are forced to cansel your first hatch if your opponent opens a very common strategy. That in itself is a bronze leauge level choice of strategy if that would have been the case. audemed is right. you're wrong. you cant defend the gold if the toss opens gateways without expanding. don't talk about what you don't know. also, audemed i DID have to mute the stream, i could not stand listening to that game anymore. the whole time they thought it was a 10 pool and it was an 11 overpool... extremely easy to see, they should pay more attention or learn more about the game imo.
You most most certainly can defend your gold in that scenario. "The toss opens gateways without expanding". So are your refering to a exe fake 1 base all in attack? or what are you refering to? Even if the case is a 2 gate zealot opening the zerg will defend it, he sees whats up and hes making nothing but lings from 2 hatch 1 queen and 7 of his drones working gold minerals. He will even get money to throw down that early spine while making every larva into a zergling.
If you are refering to a fake exe 1 base "all in" then the gold has already by far played out its advantage already. Nestea either has to have this in mind since he knows in an advantagous eco position and can play with some margin, and once he actually sees it comming he will obv make nothing but units/spines. He will always have better production capabilities then the toss aswell as better income in any of these situations. This is a major reason why gold bases are getting removed from maps. Zerg taking a fast gold ZvP is basically always advantagous.
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On April 10 2012 13:42 Babru wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 13:19 Audemed wrote:
The game on antiga with nestea vs squirtle was simply painful to listen to.
Nestea 11(10?) pools as blind "counter" to FFE.
Squirtle gate expands as blind counter to 3 hatch.
Gold base was a follow up to get a huge advantage and 2base allin vs the FFE. Cancelled when he saw the gate expand. Too easy to understand the whole situation if you understand the meta. Yet, the casters went on, and on, and on about how "I can't understand what he's doing", etc etc.
If i was watching the stream, I would have muted it. Being in there, I could only hold my head in my hands. You are going to have to be a lot more clear then that. Are you saying the casters didnt understand what the zerg was doing in a situation where the zerg placed his first hatch at the gold but cansled his hatch once he saw that the toss had opend a gate exe? That is the only way i can interpret what you just wrote. If that was the scenario then the casters are perfectly right to question the zerg. You always want to open up a fast exe vs toss regardless of what he does and you never cansel it (unless the toss went fast forge and has put up cannons to deny it but that is something a zerg should never let happen). Haven taken the gold first and having the toss being aggressive vs it is actually a very good scenario for zerg, that early gold makes zerg able to get out a scary amount of units or even spines with few drones (zerg transfers about 6-7 drones to the gold and then says "bring it on"). Doesnt matter that its placed where it is placed at Antiga the gold advantage still makes up for it by bar. If Nestea canseled his first hatch at the gold in this scenario i would say his doing a silver league level move. And even if that would have been the case; You dont open with a build where you are forced to cansel your first hatch if your opponent opens a very common strategy. That in itself is a bronze leauge level choice of strategy if that would have been the case.
The first guy actually makes sense while you do not. If you see FFE from Toss, Protoss cant actually attack you for a long time since he cant make attacking units so you can actually safely mining from the gold and take profit from it (This is same reason as Zerg can make 3rd expo when seeing toss FFE). However, Nestea saw that Squirtle built gate/cyber first, giving the fact that the gold on that map is really open and hard to hold (toss can just put stalkers on the high ground and u basically can't mine from it), he canceled it and build it at his natural which is of course much easier to hold. You say that you can make up for it if u spine up and defend yah thats true for map like crossfire because the gold can only be attacked from one side and hence zerg can spine up and defend (not all gold bases are the same). However thats not true for gold on antiga because you cant spine to defend the attack from the high ground, and they dont need to kill ur hatch, they just need to prevent you from mining and thats super easy on that gold base on antiga. I am also really sure that squirtle can 4 gates and kill nestea if he sees the gold base. If you spine up the gold he can go straight to nestea main base and vice versa. So how many spines will he need then ? at least 6-7 without even sure if he could actually mine from the gold. Now you decides if its worth it.
Before throwing out that bronze,silver nonsense, take time and think. At pro level every map is different, it works on crossfire doesnt mean it works on antiga. Saying Nestea does a silver level move without even reasoning it through is kinda ridiculous and idiotic of you.
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On April 10 2012 13:51 Malstriks wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 13:42 Babru wrote:On April 10 2012 13:19 Audemed wrote:
The game on antiga with nestea vs squirtle was simply painful to listen to.
Nestea 11(10?) pools as blind "counter" to FFE.
Squirtle gate expands as blind counter to 3 hatch.
Gold base was a follow up to get a huge advantage and 2base allin vs the FFE. Cancelled when he saw the gate expand. Too easy to understand the whole situation if you understand the meta. Yet, the casters went on, and on, and on about how "I can't understand what he's doing", etc etc.
If i was watching the stream, I would have muted it. Being in there, I could only hold my head in my hands. You are going to have to be a lot more clear then that. Are you saying the casters didnt understand what the zerg was doing in a situation where the zerg placed his first hatch at the gold but cansled his hatch once he saw that the toss had opend a gate exe? That is the only way i can interpret what you just wrote. If that was the scenario then the casters are perfectly right to question the zerg. You always want to open up a fast exe vs toss regardless of what he does and you never cansel it (unless the toss went fast forge and has put up cannons to deny it but that is something a zerg should never let happen). Haven taken the gold first and having the toss being aggressive vs it is actually a very good scenario for zerg, that early gold makes zerg able to get out a scary amount of units or even spines with few drones (zerg transfers about 6-7 drones to the gold and then says "bring it on"). It doesnt matter that its placed where it is placed at Antiga the gold advantage still makes up for it by bar. If you are refering to a later timing by the toss then the gold will have played out its advantage already in that case aswell. If Nestea canseled his first hatch at the gold in this scenario i would say his doing a silver league level move. And even if that would have been the case; You dont open with a build where you are forced to cansel your first hatch if your opponent opens a very common strategy. That in itself is a bronze leauge level choice of strategy if that would have been the case. audemed is right. you're wrong. you cant defend the gold if the toss opens gateways without expanding. don't talk about what you don't know. also, audemed i DID have to mute the stream, i could not stand listening to that game anymore. the whole time they thought it was a 10 pool and it was an 11 overpool... extremely easy to see, they should pay more attention or learn more about the game imo.
agreed with both of you on this game... it was simply a reaction to what squirtle was doing but PU/HD completely missed it and sort of when on too long even after the game was over about nestea's "indecisiveness." in regards to the overall cast by the duo, they seemed to always cut each other off, especially PU. It didn't seem like the chemistry was very good from what I saw.
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I like HD a lot, I've been listening to his HD channel ever since I got into SC2 really...I think he's great on his own. That being said, I found that this weekend he seemed a bit nervous. PainUser generally has good analysis, but HD seemed to be a bit on edge. Also, it's pretty annoying how every single time they would return from commercial HD would say something like "MAKE SOME NOISE IF YOU LIKE IPL". You don't need to do it everytime.
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I like their casting, favorite part was the sick catch by painuser that Nestea was drinking Arizona iced tea LOL.
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On April 10 2012 14:01 Babru wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 13:51 Malstriks wrote:On April 10 2012 13:42 Babru wrote:On April 10 2012 13:19 Audemed wrote:
The game on antiga with nestea vs squirtle was simply painful to listen to.
Nestea 11(10?) pools as blind "counter" to FFE.
Squirtle gate expands as blind counter to 3 hatch.
Gold base was a follow up to get a huge advantage and 2base allin vs the FFE. Cancelled when he saw the gate expand. Too easy to understand the whole situation if you understand the meta. Yet, the casters went on, and on, and on about how "I can't understand what he's doing", etc etc.
If i was watching the stream, I would have muted it. Being in there, I could only hold my head in my hands. You are going to have to be a lot more clear then that. Are you saying the casters didnt understand what the zerg was doing in a situation where the zerg placed his first hatch at the gold but cansled his hatch once he saw that the toss had opend a gate exe? That is the only way i can interpret what you just wrote. If that was the scenario then the casters are perfectly right to question the zerg. You always want to open up a fast exe vs toss regardless of what he does and you never cansel it (unless the toss went fast forge and has put up cannons to deny it but that is something a zerg should never let happen). Haven taken the gold first and having the toss being aggressive vs it is actually a very good scenario for zerg, that early gold makes zerg able to get out a scary amount of units or even spines with few drones (zerg transfers about 6-7 drones to the gold and then says "bring it on"). It doesnt matter that its placed where it is placed at Antiga the gold advantage still makes up for it by bar. If you are refering to a later timing by the toss then the gold will have played out its advantage already in that case aswell. If Nestea canseled his first hatch at the gold in this scenario i would say his doing a silver league level move. And even if that would have been the case; You dont open with a build where you are forced to cansel your first hatch if your opponent opens a very common strategy. That in itself is a bronze leauge level choice of strategy if that would have been the case. audemed is right. you're wrong. you cant defend the gold if the toss opens gateways without expanding. don't talk about what you don't know. also, audemed i DID have to mute the stream, i could not stand listening to that game anymore. the whole time they thought it was a 10 pool and it was an 11 overpool... extremely easy to see, they should pay more attention or learn more about the game imo. You most most certainly can defend your gold in that scenario. "The toss opens gateways without expanding". So are your refering to a exe fake 1 base all in attack? or what are you refering to? Even if the case is a 2 gate zealot opening the zerg will defend it, he sees whats up and hes making nothing but lings from 2 hatch 1 queen and 7 of his drones working gold minerals. He will even get money to throw down that early spine while making every larva into a zergling. If you are refering to a fake exe 1 base "all in" then the gold has already by far played out its advantage already. Nestea simply just has to see it comming and make nothing but units/spines, he will always have better production capabilities then the toss aswell as better income in any of these situations. This is a major reason why gold bases are getting removed from maps. Zerg taking a fast gold ZvP is basically always advantagous.
Again you assume toss would attack your base, no need. They just have to prevent you from mining from it. This on the other hand is extremely easy on that map. At that time, saying that he has better income is wrong because he has less drones and cant mine from gold.
Also no need to fake anything in that case. Just 4 gate and go. I am really sure there is no way Zerg can make as many units as toss if he 4gates so Nestea has to spine up like crazy. If Toss sees that he can safely park on that high ground prevent zerg from mining the gold and expos himself and comes out on top.
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On April 10 2012 14:01 thanhbao86 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 13:42 Babru wrote:On April 10 2012 13:19 Audemed wrote:
The game on antiga with nestea vs squirtle was simply painful to listen to.
Nestea 11(10?) pools as blind "counter" to FFE.
Squirtle gate expands as blind counter to 3 hatch.
Gold base was a follow up to get a huge advantage and 2base allin vs the FFE. Cancelled when he saw the gate expand. Too easy to understand the whole situation if you understand the meta. Yet, the casters went on, and on, and on about how "I can't understand what he's doing", etc etc.
If i was watching the stream, I would have muted it. Being in there, I could only hold my head in my hands. You are going to have to be a lot more clear then that. Are you saying the casters didnt understand what the zerg was doing in a situation where the zerg placed his first hatch at the gold but cansled his hatch once he saw that the toss had opend a gate exe? That is the only way i can interpret what you just wrote. If that was the scenario then the casters are perfectly right to question the zerg. You always want to open up a fast exe vs toss regardless of what he does and you never cansel it (unless the toss went fast forge and has put up cannons to deny it but that is something a zerg should never let happen). Haven taken the gold first and having the toss being aggressive vs it is actually a very good scenario for zerg, that early gold makes zerg able to get out a scary amount of units or even spines with few drones (zerg transfers about 6-7 drones to the gold and then says "bring it on"). Doesnt matter that its placed where it is placed at Antiga the gold advantage still makes up for it by bar. If Nestea canseled his first hatch at the gold in this scenario i would say his doing a silver league level move. And even if that would have been the case; You dont open with a build where you are forced to cansel your first hatch if your opponent opens a very common strategy. That in itself is a bronze leauge level choice of strategy if that would have been the case. The first guy actually makes sense while you do not. If you see FFE from Toss, Protoss cant actually attack you for a long time since he cant make attacking units so you can actually safely mining from the gold and take profit from it (This is same reason as Zerg can make 3rd expo when seeing toss FFE). However, Nestea saw that Squirtle built gate/cyber first, giving the fact that the gold on that map is really open and hard to hold (toss can just put stalkers on the high ground and u basically can't mine from it), he canceled it and build it at his natural which is of course much easier to hold. You say that you can make up for it if u spine up and defend yah thats true for map like crossfire because the gold can only be attacked from one side and hence zerg can spine up and defend (not all gold bases are the same). However thats not true for gold on antiga because you cant spine to defend the attack from the high ground, and they dont need to kill ur hatch, they just need to prevent you from mining and thats super easy on that gold base on antiga. I am also really sure that squirtle can 4 gates and kill nestea if he sees the gold base. If you spine up the gold he can go straight to nestea main base and vice versa. So how many spines will he need then ? at least 6-7 without even sure if he could actually mine from the gold. Now you decides if its worth it. Before throwing out that bronze,silver nonsense, take time and think. At pro level every map is different, it works on crossfire doesnt mean it works on antiga. Saying Nestea does a silver level move without even reasoning it through is kinda ridiculous and idiotic of you.
"Toss can just put stalkers on the high ground and u bawsically cant mine from it".
Are you for real? No. Nestea will greet those stalkers with units being produced from 2 or 3 hatches depening on what timing you are refering to and since he took an early gold hes getting an insane eco lead that translates into way better production capabillities.
If its a somewhat later timing you are refering to he will for example be able to greet those stalkers with speedlings from 3 hatch 3 queen even with spines in place at the gold.
All zerg needs to do i this situation is get the timings right and that gold advantage will turn into a massive unit advantage whatever units he chooses to make.
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On April 10 2012 14:08 Babru wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 14:01 thanhbao86 wrote:On April 10 2012 13:42 Babru wrote:On April 10 2012 13:19 Audemed wrote:
The game on antiga with nestea vs squirtle was simply painful to listen to.
Nestea 11(10?) pools as blind "counter" to FFE.
Squirtle gate expands as blind counter to 3 hatch.
Gold base was a follow up to get a huge advantage and 2base allin vs the FFE. Cancelled when he saw the gate expand. Too easy to understand the whole situation if you understand the meta. Yet, the casters went on, and on, and on about how "I can't understand what he's doing", etc etc.
If i was watching the stream, I would have muted it. Being in there, I could only hold my head in my hands. You are going to have to be a lot more clear then that. Are you saying the casters didnt understand what the zerg was doing in a situation where the zerg placed his first hatch at the gold but cansled his hatch once he saw that the toss had opend a gate exe? That is the only way i can interpret what you just wrote. If that was the scenario then the casters are perfectly right to question the zerg. You always want to open up a fast exe vs toss regardless of what he does and you never cansel it (unless the toss went fast forge and has put up cannons to deny it but that is something a zerg should never let happen). Haven taken the gold first and having the toss being aggressive vs it is actually a very good scenario for zerg, that early gold makes zerg able to get out a scary amount of units or even spines with few drones (zerg transfers about 6-7 drones to the gold and then says "bring it on"). Doesnt matter that its placed where it is placed at Antiga the gold advantage still makes up for it by bar. If Nestea canseled his first hatch at the gold in this scenario i would say his doing a silver league level move. And even if that would have been the case; You dont open with a build where you are forced to cansel your first hatch if your opponent opens a very common strategy. That in itself is a bronze leauge level choice of strategy if that would have been the case. The first guy actually makes sense while you do not. If you see FFE from Toss, Protoss cant actually attack you for a long time since he cant make attacking units so you can actually safely mining from the gold and take profit from it (This is same reason as Zerg can make 3rd expo when seeing toss FFE). However, Nestea saw that Squirtle built gate/cyber first, giving the fact that the gold on that map is really open and hard to hold (toss can just put stalkers on the high ground and u basically can't mine from it), he canceled it and build it at his natural which is of course much easier to hold. You say that you can make up for it if u spine up and defend yah thats true for map like crossfire because the gold can only be attacked from one side and hence zerg can spine up and defend (not all gold bases are the same). However thats not true for gold on antiga because you cant spine to defend the attack from the high ground, and they dont need to kill ur hatch, they just need to prevent you from mining and thats super easy on that gold base on antiga. I am also really sure that squirtle can 4 gates and kill nestea if he sees the gold base. If you spine up the gold he can go straight to nestea main base and vice versa. So how many spines will he need then ? at least 6-7 without even sure if he could actually mine from the gold. Now you decides if its worth it. Before throwing out that bronze,silver nonsense, take time and think. At pro level every map is different, it works on crossfire doesnt mean it works on antiga. Saying Nestea does a silver level move without even reasoning it through is kinda ridiculous and idiotic of you. "Toss can just put stalkers on the high ground and u bawsically cant mine from it". Are you for real? No. Nestea will great those stalkers with units being produced from 2 or 3 hatches depening on what timing you are refering to and since he took an early gold hes getting an insane eco lead that translates into way better production capabillities. If its a somewhat later timing you are refering to he will for example be able to great those stalkers with speedlings from 3 hatch 3 queen even with spines in place at the gold.
I never see a zerg defends a 4 gates with only lings and queen (at pro level ofc) You always have to spine up. And 4 gates hits at 6:30 mark just so you know.
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On April 10 2012 14:04 thanhbao86 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 14:01 Babru wrote:On April 10 2012 13:51 Malstriks wrote:On April 10 2012 13:42 Babru wrote:On April 10 2012 13:19 Audemed wrote:
The game on antiga with nestea vs squirtle was simply painful to listen to.
Nestea 11(10?) pools as blind "counter" to FFE.
Squirtle gate expands as blind counter to 3 hatch.
Gold base was a follow up to get a huge advantage and 2base allin vs the FFE. Cancelled when he saw the gate expand. Too easy to understand the whole situation if you understand the meta. Yet, the casters went on, and on, and on about how "I can't understand what he's doing", etc etc.
If i was watching the stream, I would have muted it. Being in there, I could only hold my head in my hands. You are going to have to be a lot more clear then that. Are you saying the casters didnt understand what the zerg was doing in a situation where the zerg placed his first hatch at the gold but cansled his hatch once he saw that the toss had opend a gate exe? That is the only way i can interpret what you just wrote. If that was the scenario then the casters are perfectly right to question the zerg. You always want to open up a fast exe vs toss regardless of what he does and you never cansel it (unless the toss went fast forge and has put up cannons to deny it but that is something a zerg should never let happen). Haven taken the gold first and having the toss being aggressive vs it is actually a very good scenario for zerg, that early gold makes zerg able to get out a scary amount of units or even spines with few drones (zerg transfers about 6-7 drones to the gold and then says "bring it on"). It doesnt matter that its placed where it is placed at Antiga the gold advantage still makes up for it by bar. If you are refering to a later timing by the toss then the gold will have played out its advantage already in that case aswell. If Nestea canseled his first hatch at the gold in this scenario i would say his doing a silver league level move. And even if that would have been the case; You dont open with a build where you are forced to cansel your first hatch if your opponent opens a very common strategy. That in itself is a bronze leauge level choice of strategy if that would have been the case. audemed is right. you're wrong. you cant defend the gold if the toss opens gateways without expanding. don't talk about what you don't know. also, audemed i DID have to mute the stream, i could not stand listening to that game anymore. the whole time they thought it was a 10 pool and it was an 11 overpool... extremely easy to see, they should pay more attention or learn more about the game imo. You most most certainly can defend your gold in that scenario. "The toss opens gateways without expanding". So are your refering to a exe fake 1 base all in attack? or what are you refering to? Even if the case is a 2 gate zealot opening the zerg will defend it, he sees whats up and hes making nothing but lings from 2 hatch 1 queen and 7 of his drones working gold minerals. He will even get money to throw down that early spine while making every larva into a zergling. If you are refering to a fake exe 1 base "all in" then the gold has already by far played out its advantage already. Nestea simply just has to see it comming and make nothing but units/spines, he will always have better production capabilities then the toss aswell as better income in any of these situations. This is a major reason why gold bases are getting removed from maps. Zerg taking a fast gold ZvP is basically always advantagous. Again you assume toss would attack your base, no need. They just have to prevent you from mining from it. This on the other hand is extremely easy on that map. At that time, saying that he has better income is wrong because he has less drones and cant mine from gold.
Zerg should have as many drones as he has been allowed to which will always be more then the toss has in this scenario. He will have better production capabilities aswell as economy in all of the timings the toss can do from 1 base vs his fast gold opening. Also, see the answer i gave above this one.
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On April 10 2012 14:12 Babru wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 14:04 thanhbao86 wrote:On April 10 2012 14:01 Babru wrote:On April 10 2012 13:51 Malstriks wrote:On April 10 2012 13:42 Babru wrote:On April 10 2012 13:19 Audemed wrote:
The game on antiga with nestea vs squirtle was simply painful to listen to.
Nestea 11(10?) pools as blind "counter" to FFE.
Squirtle gate expands as blind counter to 3 hatch.
Gold base was a follow up to get a huge advantage and 2base allin vs the FFE. Cancelled when he saw the gate expand. Too easy to understand the whole situation if you understand the meta. Yet, the casters went on, and on, and on about how "I can't understand what he's doing", etc etc.
If i was watching the stream, I would have muted it. Being in there, I could only hold my head in my hands. You are going to have to be a lot more clear then that. Are you saying the casters didnt understand what the zerg was doing in a situation where the zerg placed his first hatch at the gold but cansled his hatch once he saw that the toss had opend a gate exe? That is the only way i can interpret what you just wrote. If that was the scenario then the casters are perfectly right to question the zerg. You always want to open up a fast exe vs toss regardless of what he does and you never cansel it (unless the toss went fast forge and has put up cannons to deny it but that is something a zerg should never let happen). Haven taken the gold first and having the toss being aggressive vs it is actually a very good scenario for zerg, that early gold makes zerg able to get out a scary amount of units or even spines with few drones (zerg transfers about 6-7 drones to the gold and then says "bring it on"). It doesnt matter that its placed where it is placed at Antiga the gold advantage still makes up for it by bar. If you are refering to a later timing by the toss then the gold will have played out its advantage already in that case aswell. If Nestea canseled his first hatch at the gold in this scenario i would say his doing a silver league level move. And even if that would have been the case; You dont open with a build where you are forced to cansel your first hatch if your opponent opens a very common strategy. That in itself is a bronze leauge level choice of strategy if that would have been the case. audemed is right. you're wrong. you cant defend the gold if the toss opens gateways without expanding. don't talk about what you don't know. also, audemed i DID have to mute the stream, i could not stand listening to that game anymore. the whole time they thought it was a 10 pool and it was an 11 overpool... extremely easy to see, they should pay more attention or learn more about the game imo. You most most certainly can defend your gold in that scenario. "The toss opens gateways without expanding". So are your refering to a exe fake 1 base all in attack? or what are you refering to? Even if the case is a 2 gate zealot opening the zerg will defend it, he sees whats up and hes making nothing but lings from 2 hatch 1 queen and 7 of his drones working gold minerals. He will even get money to throw down that early spine while making every larva into a zergling. If you are refering to a fake exe 1 base "all in" then the gold has already by far played out its advantage already. Nestea simply just has to see it comming and make nothing but units/spines, he will always have better production capabilities then the toss aswell as better income in any of these situations. This is a major reason why gold bases are getting removed from maps. Zerg taking a fast gold ZvP is basically always advantagous. Again you assume toss would attack your base, no need. They just have to prevent you from mining from it. This on the other hand is extremely easy on that map. At that time, saying that he has better income is wrong because he has less drones and cant mine from gold. Zerg should have as many drones as he has been allowed to which will always be more then the toss has in this scenario. He will have better production capabilities aswell as economy in all of the timings the toss can do from 1 base vs his fast gold opening. Also, see the answer i gave above this one.
How does he have more drones ? He opened 11 overpool to put pressure on Toss if he FFE, but the Toss gate/cyber first so he was making probes nonstop (FFE is the norm on that map). Up until building that gold base, he still had less workers. Even when that gold base finishes (1 hatch production only), he would still have less drones. Then 4 gates would come 1 min later. How would he have more drones if he has to make lings to defend and still has not mined from that base for more than 1 min.
Anyway, I am done arguing about this since i have said all I need to say. if you like HD+Painuser that much then sure.
But saying only lings + and queens can defend a 4 gates. And say zerg should have more drones than toss even though he opens 11 overpool and has to make lings to defend 4 gates ... Well people here would know your level. I dont have to comment on that.
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EPT
