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On October 14 2011 18:35 Eviscerador wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 18:11 Big J wrote:
ahm? Broodlord is already a siege unit on the zerg race, Guardian was a siege unit on zerg race... so why should zerg not get a siege unit? Also range 6-7... sounds pretty longrange in a spectrum of range 0-4 playable units that the zerg race right now has + broodlords and infestors.
Also just because a unit is longrange, you shouldn't just say it's a "Race Y Siege Tank", because the balancing for such a unit would be completly different. (Range, splash, dps, "siege mode", armor, HP, larvamechanism-nerf...) ground AoE slash damage (blings) and they are good in their current form.
Lots of people will disagree with you there. Blings are good as landmines AFTER you have researched burrow, but they aren't nearly as good at general space control as Lurkers were in BW, seeing as they only work once and then you have to take more and reburrow them, and can get killed with a single scan/Raven and a few Marines. Lurkers took a determined assault to kill off.
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I'm really hoping it to be a Lurker that mutates from Roaches and has Tunneling Claws... Hey, I can dream...
But it's probably going to be a Tank-esque unit. Booooooooringgg... >.<
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On October 14 2011 18:52 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 18:35 Eviscerador wrote:On October 14 2011 18:11 Big J wrote:
ahm? Broodlord is already a siege unit on the zerg race, Guardian was a siege unit on zerg race... so why should zerg not get a siege unit? Also range 6-7... sounds pretty longrange in a spectrum of range 0-4 playable units that the zerg race right now has + broodlords and infestors.
Also just because a unit is longrange, you shouldn't just say it's a "Race Y Siege Tank", because the balancing for such a unit would be completly different. (Range, splash, dps, "siege mode", armor, HP, larvamechanism-nerf...) ground AoE slash damage (blings) and they are good in their current form. Lots of people will disagree with you there. Blings are good as landmines AFTER you have researched burrow, but they aren't nearly as good at general space control as Lurkers were in BW, seeing as they only work once and then you have to take more and reburrow them, and can get killed with a single scan/Raven and a few Marines. Lurkers took a determined assault to kill off.
Never said blings are intended for space control, just they are zerg AoE splash damage dealers.
For what i'm used to see and play as zerg, zerg space control is map control though vision or harassing units. I don't need a zerg siege tank because i can pin my enemy in base to the threat of lings runby, muta harass or in some maps infestor fungal / IT runbys. If somehow i'm lacking that is because i'm not using my race strenghts as I should.
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On October 14 2011 19:01 Eviscerador wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 18:52 SeaSwift wrote:On October 14 2011 18:35 Eviscerador wrote:On October 14 2011 18:11 Big J wrote:
ahm? Broodlord is already a siege unit on the zerg race, Guardian was a siege unit on zerg race... so why should zerg not get a siege unit? Also range 6-7... sounds pretty longrange in a spectrum of range 0-4 playable units that the zerg race right now has + broodlords and infestors.
Also just because a unit is longrange, you shouldn't just say it's a "Race Y Siege Tank", because the balancing for such a unit would be completly different. (Range, splash, dps, "siege mode", armor, HP, larvamechanism-nerf...) ground AoE slash damage (blings) and they are good in their current form. Lots of people will disagree with you there. Blings are good as landmines AFTER you have researched burrow, but they aren't nearly as good at general space control as Lurkers were in BW, seeing as they only work once and then you have to take more and reburrow them, and can get killed with a single scan/Raven and a few Marines. Lurkers took a determined assault to kill off. Never said blings are intended for space control, just they are zerg AoE splash damage dealers. For what i'm used to see and play as zerg, zerg space control is map control though vision or harassing units. I don't need a zerg siege tank because i can pin my enemy in base to the threat of lings runby, muta harass or in some maps infestor fungal / IT runbys. If somehow i'm lacking that is because i'm not using my race strenghts as I should.
I was actually responding to you saying they were good in their current form - I won't deny that they are AoE splash damage dealers. AoE splash damage was traditionally used for space control in BW, but in SC2 the only real space control units are Seige Tanks and maybe Ghosts (with Nukes).
Space control =/= map control. This crops in tons of different threads. Map control - the ability to move around the map at will and prevent your opponent from doing so (sometimes, depending on air units/cloaked etc). Space control - having control of a particular section of the map and making sure your opponent cannot attack there, eg. Vultures with Spider Mines.
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I now know what this is. It is a an upgraded baneling. You get the upgrade at lair tech in the baneling nest. What it does is that it gives every baneling the ability to shoot its explosive tank onto enemies. Afterwards, the baneling is back into zergling mode!
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On October 14 2011 19:07 SeaSwift wrote:
Space control =/= map control. This crops in tons of different threads. Map control - the ability to move around the map at will and prevent your opponent from doing so (sometimes, depending on air units/cloaked etc). Space control - having control of a particular section of the map and making sure your opponent cannot attack there, eg. Vultures with Spider Mines.
Yes, I agree with you, but as zerg, your map control IS your space control. Since you have free reign to move and position your troops, you just make space control superfluous.
I mean, why would you want to waste supply in denying a small map patch when you can know where your enemy is, where is moving and when to apply the killing blow?
Lurkers were needed on BW because your army wasn't so fast, and you didn't have creep as map control. Also dark swarm had nice synergies with it. Now you just don't need lurkers or space control. Just map control, and nice creep spreading.
And Spider mines were like blings. Once you scan them or send some detectors, they are useless (although they were really cheap)
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I like the idea of a cliff-climbing hydra that would use higher ground for 'sieging', blasting baneling like bombs (using the old fungal animation for the projectile).
![[image loading]](http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/6136/zergnewunit.jpg)
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I wouldn't be surprised if the large back hump turned out to be a hardened two piece elytra covering hind-wings beneath, somewhat similar to a ladybug in concept. The unit might have a ground and air mode similar to the Viking, or perhaps a 'pounce' into combat like the Zergling mutation in HoTS single-player. The unit may not be as large as the silhouette makes it look.
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On October 14 2011 19:15 Eviscerador wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 19:07 SeaSwift wrote:
Space control =/= map control. This crops in tons of different threads. Map control - the ability to move around the map at will and prevent your opponent from doing so (sometimes, depending on air units/cloaked etc). Space control - having control of a particular section of the map and making sure your opponent cannot attack there, eg. Vultures with Spider Mines. Yes, I agree with you, but as zerg, your map control IS your space control. Since you have free reign to move and position your troops, you just make space control superfluous. I mean, why would you want to waste supply in denying a small map patch when you can know where your enemy is, where is moving and when to apply the killing blow? Lurkers were needed on BW because your army wasn't so fast, and you didn't have creep as map control. Also dark swarm had nice synergies with it. Now you just don't need lurkers or space control. Just map control, and nice creep spreading. And Spider mines were like blings. Once you scan them or send some detectors, they are useless (although they were really cheap)
I think you completly miss the point of lurkers... Or you get it but don't understand : the point is, you can deny a small part of the map, for exemple an expand, with almost no supply... In SC2, the biggest problem with zerg is that you always have to outmuscle your opponent (and that's also the major reason for most sudden loss too btw), which mean making a tons of roach / lingbling before teching or betting that your opponent is not going to attack you. It's a balance you have to get, while with lurker, you could theorically expand, map control, and force your opponent into A ) investing more than he should into killing an expand that is defended with a few lurker B ) go maccro mode expand and territory control just like yourself.
And then all of a sudden, it's another game.
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On October 14 2011 20:13 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 19:15 Eviscerador wrote:On October 14 2011 19:07 SeaSwift wrote:
Space control =/= map control. This crops in tons of different threads. Map control - the ability to move around the map at will and prevent your opponent from doing so (sometimes, depending on air units/cloaked etc). Space control - having control of a particular section of the map and making sure your opponent cannot attack there, eg. Vultures with Spider Mines. Yes, I agree with you, but as zerg, your map control IS your space control. Since you have free reign to move and position your troops, you just make space control superfluous. I mean, why would you want to waste supply in denying a small map patch when you can know where your enemy is, where is moving and when to apply the killing blow? Lurkers were needed on BW because your army wasn't so fast, and you didn't have creep as map control. Also dark swarm had nice synergies with it. Now you just don't need lurkers or space control. Just map control, and nice creep spreading. And Spider mines were like blings. Once you scan them or send some detectors, they are useless (although they were really cheap) I think you completly miss the point of lurkers... Or you get it but don't understand : the point is, you can deny a small part of the map, for exemple an expand, with almost no supply... In SC2, the biggest problem with zerg is that you always have to outmuscle your opponent (and that's also the major reason for most sudden loss too btw), which mean making a tons of roach / lingbling before teching or betting that your opponent is not going to attack you. It's a balance you have to get, while with lurker, you could theorically expand, map control, and force your opponent into A ) investing more than he should into killing an expand that is defended with a few lurker B ) go maccro mode expand and territory control just like yourself. And then all of a sudden, it's another game.
I got the point, but I still don't see how lurkers will help in the current metagame. Terran just have to stay on base with two OC, pile some energy, then go marine tank and siege you out to oblivion since you have overteched to lukers (T2.5 units, which are pretty expensive) and have no eco nor units to pull him back.
Because if you meant to defend your nat, you have better ways to do right now without teching, and if you meant to defend your third or fourth, well, then scan and ravens will be available, so lurkers will be useless to siege tanks.
I prefer infestors for the same purpouse. Indeed, I don't know what a lurker could do what an infestor can't, for the same price (iirc). They do splash damage, control space (due to fungal rot) and can burrow (even move) and spit IT out of nowhere.
The only thing i see they could do better is to defend late exp from terran drops. forcing to over invest in scans and two medevacs instead of one.
Anyway, Ravens + HSM will wreck havok into a lurker line, just like the SV did, but with no scourges.
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I´m guessing it´s gonna be a reaver. Not in the literal sense ofcourse but the hydra-base makes me think it´s gonna be a slow unit (lol) and the back looks like it´s gonna fire siege-bombs. Reavers.
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On October 14 2011 20:32 Slakter wrote:
I´m guessing it´s gonna be a reaver. Not in the literal sense ofcourse but the hydra-base makes me think it´s gonna be a slow unit (lol) and the back looks like it´s gonna fire siege-bombs. Reavers.
It swallows banelings and throw them. 45damage +40 to armored. 7range, can be 9 with an upgrade.
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Yeah finally i registered, well was funny following this thread but now i'd like to add some pictures myself, have a look ^^
![[image loading]](http://h4.abload.de/img/modesarsg.jpg)
okay this looks kinda believable
![[image loading]](http://h4.abload.de/img/hand0rf0.jpg)
but this is way ahead of the others
drum rolls ... Tada
an antidrop umbrella
it reflects all incoming drops for the next ten minutes by sacrificing only half of the worker count
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On October 14 2011 21:01 nkmaNanashi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Yeah finally i registered, well was funny following this thread but now i'd like to add some pictures myself, have a look ^^ okay this looks kinda believable but this is way ahead of the others drum rolls ... Tada an antidrop umbrella
Yes! This is what I've been thinking all along! It definetly looks more like a hatch or a cover than a cannon imo.
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I'm really hoping this is some kind of lurkerish unit.
I'm thinking T2 roach evolution -> Rurker.
Or Loach.
Yup.
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I just want the lurker for space control. We already have a siege unit (though... it comes very late in the game). it would also encourage more burrow-style builds. What I mean is that if HOTS have lurkers, you need burrow anyway so we might see far more burrowed banelings and roaches too. These builds would also need to account for Ravens/Observers being at play too. Sounds like un!
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On October 14 2011 21:20 Stiluz wrote:
I just want the lurker for space control. We already have a siege unit (though... it comes very late in the game). it would also encourage more burrow-style builds. What I mean is that if HOTS have lurkers, you need burrow anyway so we might see far more burrowed banelings and roaches too. These builds would also need to account for Ravens/Observers being at play too. Sounds like un!
they would have to be a roach morph or they would come too late in the game to make a difference.
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On October 14 2011 21:01 nkmaNanashi wrote:Yeah finally i registered, well was funny following this thread but now i'd like to add some pictures myself, have a look ^^ okay this looks kinda believable but this is way ahead of the others drum rolls ... Tada an antidrop umbrellait reflects all incoming drops for the next ten minutes by sacrificing only half of the worker count
Why is there a ninja mutant turtle on its back?
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On October 14 2011 21:24 nihlon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 21:01 nkmaNanashi wrote:Yeah finally i registered, well was funny following this thread but now i'd like to add some pictures myself, have a look ^^ okay this looks kinda believable but this is way ahead of the others drum rolls ... Tada an antidrop umbrellait reflects all incoming drops for the next ten minutes by sacrificing only half of the worker count Why is there a ninja mutant turtle on its back?
play the campaign thts zeratul
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No that's definately a ninja mutant turtle.
(Do I have to add an emoticon?)
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EPT
