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[Poll] Best Foreigner? - Page 37

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AxionSteel
Profile Joined January 2011
United States7754 Posts
September 25 2011 05:47 GMT
#721
On September 25 2011 14:08 ForlornHope wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2011 06:19 genius_man16 wrote:
HuK is the one who's been in Code S the longest, I don't really care what other results he's had. How MaNa or Kas is on the list is beyond me but whatever.

I find it funny how people say IdrA is on the list when he made it to the Ro8 of the GSL, and was in it for 3 straight seasons. The game may have been newer, but that's still WAY more than any other foreigner except HuK.

Thorzain is prob #3, SeleCT #4.


you idiotic bastard

User was temp banned for this post.


haha, a bit harsh. But I agree, what he said was pretty well off the mark
Yeh, 1 year ago IdrA was pretty good, but that's not what the thread is about, if it was about prior achievements, Jinro would be right up the top as well.
Right now, HuK with his Code S spot, and ThorZaiN with his incredibly smart play, win out for me.

Totally disagree with those who say MaNa shouldn't be on the list, that is some kind of joke. He is the best protoss in Europe at the moment, his results have been exceptional, particularly in PvT against a string of great terrans.

ComTrav
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1093 Posts
September 25 2011 05:53 GMT
#722
I pretty much agree with Huk/Thorzain being the top two; I think you could build a convincing case for either. I personally like Thorzain, but I think Huk has had more success overall.

This thread actually makes me want to see more Sen. I'm surprised he's as high as he is. Although I think he's an elite player, I wouldn't think he had enough high-profile wins/exposure to get this many votes.

I also don't think Stephano should be as high as he is; I don't think he's currently as good as Select or Naniwa, and he's not as accomplished as Idra.

And I'm going to support everyone saying White-Ra deserves at least a mention.

Also, someone mentioned Chinese players, and I honestly don't know any besides Loner. The Chinese community feels so separate. Korea is definitely its own thing, but everyone follows it; and although SEA/NA/Europe are all distinct, they all come to TL and compete in almost all the same big tourneys (MLG/Dreamhack/IPL/NASL/What-have-you.)
michielbrands
Profile Joined June 2011
Netherlands1146 Posts
September 25 2011 06:01 GMT
#723
for potentional without any doubt Ret, But due to his constancy ThorZain with HuK, NaNiwA, DeMusliM & Stephano right on his back
- me (L) competitive gaming -
VPCursed
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
1044 Posts
September 25 2011 06:09 GMT
#724
kind of surprised naniwa is so low. id put him above idra atm TBH... maybe even sen
RaNdOmOwNaGe
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia51 Posts
September 25 2011 06:11 GMT
#725
HuK, he is in code S representing Protoss, I don't understand how people can vote for anyone else.
<3 ZealotS
JustJonny
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada294 Posts
September 25 2011 06:19 GMT
#726
HuK for sure. consistent results and has the ability to completely outclass other well-respected players (see his 2 nasl bouts so far)
Mordiford
Profile Joined April 2011
4448 Posts
September 25 2011 06:30 GMT
#727
On September 25 2011 15:09 VPCursed wrote:
kind of surprised naniwa is so low. id put him above idra atm TBH... maybe even sen


IdrA always gets a ton of votes in any poll regarding anything.
critique
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States135 Posts
September 25 2011 06:35 GMT
#728
On September 25 2011 10:53 Serpico wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2011 10:44 critique wrote:
Huk is in Code S. Thorzain is not.
Don't get me wrong, Thorzain is a hell of a player, but he lost in code A ro 32. For me results trump all other considerations, so the only foreigner competing in the toughest tournament in the world is, by default, the best foreigner.

That's a poor argument, it just forgoes all analysis. If you want to say that you could say he shouldn't be in Code S because he got knocked out by MC who isnt even in Code A now. But that of course would be stupid because you have to analyze the games and careers of the players. When I think of sen and thorzain I think of two players I would bet on to beat huk especially with the state of protoss relatively easily.

My response is in the spoiler. TL;DR: Huk is better than Sen/Thorzain, and your argument is really bad.
+ Show Spoiler +
You are right on calling me out on the lack of analysis, but I disagree with your assessment. Consider this analogy: a baseball player with a 1,000 OPS is a better baseball player than one with a 600 OPS. This statement is objectively true (baring some sort of ridiculous disparity in fielding and positional adjustments), even if it lacks analysis. A proper analysis would discuss each players tools and swing mechanics, and evaluate which player is beter based on the most fine grained information available. Regardless of a lack of analysis, though, the statement "a player with a 1000 OPS is, ceteris parabus, better than a player with a 600 OPS," is true. Bringing the analogy back to esports, my statement that Huk is better than Thorzain because Huk has posted better results in the same tournament is a strong argument in spite of its lack of fine-grained analysis.
You rightly point out that the idea that Huk should not be in Code S because he lost to MC, who is now code B (insert sad, crying zelot picture here), is a really bad argument. I think you are wrong, though, in your reasoning for why this is a bad argument. This is a bad argument because it grossly ignores the tournament format and the nature of the game.
The tournament format creates for a situation wherein one (series) loss resets a player to a certain base level. A loss either sets a player to the code S ro 32, the up and down matches, the code A ro 32, or code B. The above logic that a Huk's loss to MC (now a code B player) makes Huk a code B level player falsely assumes that any loss by player X to player Y makes player X to be at or less than the level of player Y. This, of course, is not true. If Huk, for example, looses to SUPESTAR, he would not be, nor should he be, moved down to code A. A single loss can only move a player down one level. MC resides in code B because of multiple losses; to assert that Huk's loss to a (now) code B player makes Huk code B inexplicably ignores the structure of the tournament he is competing in.
In terms of skill (and formal argumentation), the assertion that "MC beat Huk, and MC is code B, therefore Huk is code B" is flatly invalid, because (at least) it ignores the fact that the game involves a minimum of three match-ups. MC beating Huk shows that MC is better at PvP, which says nothing about Huk's PvT or PvZ. Any one series can, at most, show one third of a player's skill. MC could have (and actually did) drop to code B because of his shaky ability in PvZ and PvT. The fact that MC now resides in the ignominy of code B does not prove anything more than Huk's PvP is not up to typical code S standard, which, incidentally, Huk has freely admitted for months.
Also, I disagree with your argument that Sen and Thorzain are better than Huk for two reasons. Firstly, it confounds current metagame balance with player skill. Secondly, your assertion that Sen and Thorzain may be better than Huk lacks any sort of analysis.
Taking the second point first, you say that this is something you would bet on, which, ordinarily, I would be fine with. Brevity, in the proper context, can trump analysis. But you criticized me for a lack of analysis in my argument, then presented something that can not even be considered an argument, and then provided no analysis for your assertion. . If you are going to criticize for a lack of analysis, at least provide some analysis in your own post.
Secondly, and more importantly, your assessment of the current metagame and how it should affect our evaluation of players runs entirely backward. Your argument for Sen/Thorzain (both terran) runs as follows: 1. Huk and Sen/Thorzin are of vaguely comparable skill. 2. Currently, terran has an advantage over protoss. 3. Therefore, because these players are at least vaguely comparable, Thorzin/Sen, both terran, are better players than Huk.
This argument is junk: Huk's playing the currently inferior race should work in favor of Huk, not against him. Sen/Thorzain are, even by what your statement seems to imply, getting a boost from playing a race that is currently heavily favored in the metagame, which should lead you to favor Huk in your analysis of who is the best foreigner. Think of this in mathematical terms: Sen/Thorzain + metagame advantage = (or at least is comparable to) Huk. Huk is the better player, but the added metagame (or balance or whatever you want to call it) advantage favors the terran players. As you state in your post, were Sen/Thorzain to play Huk, you would (rightly) bet against Huk. But this seems to be because Huk is not only battling Sen/Thorzin, but also a rather serious metagame disadvantage.
The fact that Huk has stayed in code S in spite of a metagame disadvantage explains why he is better than Sen/Thorzain. Sen and Thorzin remain in code A even with the added advantage of playing terran. Huk, though, has remained in code S despite the notable disadvantage of playing protoss.
Returning to the baseball analogy, consider a slugger with an OPS of 1,000 at the height of the dead ball era (1910, for example) and a slugger with an 1,100 OPS in the height of the 'live ball' (read: steroid) era. Strictly speaking, the hitter with the 1,100 OPS hit better than the hitter with the 1,000 OPS. But this is a rather facile analysis. If you take any sort of context into consideration, the player who put up a 1,000 OPS in a low-offense environment is clearly better than one who posted an 1,100 OPS in a high-offense environment.
Back to esports, Huk has remained in code S even though the current state of the game is significantly disadvantageous to protoss. Obviously you should take Sen/Thorzin over Huk right now, just as you would, without any other analysis, take an 1,100 OPS hitter over a 1,000 OPS hitter. But this hardly means that the 1,100 OPS hitter is better than the 1,000 OPS hitter, all things considered.
Huk, to beleaguer the analogy, is hitting in a low-offense environment. In some artificially limited fantasy world, the (roided out) slugger from 2000 with a 1,100 OPS is better than the 1910 slugger with an OPS of 1,000. But it is only under the most arbitrary of conditions that the dead ball era hitter would be considered worse than the live ball era hitter.
Huk plays protoss, yet he has maintained his code S status. The arduous state of the protoss race should make his continued code S status all the more impressive.
Huk, in short, is clearly a better player than Sen/Thorzin, and I feel is the best foreigner in the world. Facing the toughest competition, he has held his own in spite of playing protoss during a time that is distinctly unfriendly to the race.

Also, "Player X is better than player Y" is the bread and butter of baseball/basketball/football discussions. I am really, genuinely happy to see this sort of discussion take place with progamers. This sort of discussion is the mark of a healthy, thriving scene.
critique
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States135 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-25 07:03:24
September 25 2011 07:01 GMT
#729
On September 25 2011 11:54 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2011 10:44 critique wrote:
Huk is in Code S. Thorzain is not.
Don't get me wrong, Thorzain is a hell of a player, but he lost in code A ro 32. For me results trump all other considerations, so the only foreigner competing in the toughest tournament in the world is, by default, the best foreigner.


This just doesn't hold up for me. When I look at the competitors who are coming to an event I like to size everyone up. Among the foreigners I try to look at just who is more likely to do overall better in this tournament (without knowing where they land in the bracket) who would I bet on. Basically what I'm getting at is, who plays this game better. I look at Huk and I look at Thorzain. I pick Thorzain. That's the better player, fuck if you're code S or not, there are many circumstances for as to why you are or aren't. Who truly looks like they play at a higher level in recent times (past 3-4 months).

Should it be:

Huk, the hit or miss guy with excellent micro, generally decent macro, but sometimes questionable decision making. The guy who can be a maestro with blink stalkers and has moments of brilliance (like the hold of Thorzain's Thor rush at dreamhack or when he beat Naniwa at Homestory), but then also will sometimes build a fuckton of sentries, get overly aggressive, paint the map with unnecessary forcefields, and just flat out die. But he has better results.

OR

Thorzain. Patient, very calm, excellent macro, occasionally tries uncommon strategies, and is generally a smarter player. However, sometimes he's a little tooooo passive and methodical and at others his production just doesn't quite line up with what he's doing.

Thorzain has the edge in my book.

I respect that thorzain has the edge for you, but you are basically pointing out stylistic differences. You prefer thorzain's slow, methodical style; I prefer Huk's agressive, crazy-micro style. I don't think either of our opinion's are a priori better.
I do, though, freely admit that I suck (as a player) at this game, and that that fact should cast some serious doubt on my ability to determine which play style is best. Artosis always comments that this style is terrible while that style is great, but I am not good enough to judge a style without context. As such, I rely heavily on context to judge the merits of a player's style. A style that has produced good results (winning tournaments) certainly seems to be better than a style that has produced mediocre results.
Like the style or not, you have to admit Huk's style has won him a lot of major tournaments. Thorzain has certainly had his share of success, but, comparing the two players, it really seems like Huk's style has had more success than Thorzain's.
Again, which style you like more, and which style you think will produce results in the future, is certainly an open argument. But if you look at which style has produced more results, I think you have to give the edge to Huk.
ROOTFayth
Profile Joined January 2004
Canada3351 Posts
September 25 2011 07:15 GMT
#730
On September 25 2011 14:53 ComTrav wrote:
I pretty much agree with Huk/Thorzain being the top two; I think you could build a convincing case for either. I personally like Thorzain, but I think Huk has had more success overall.

This thread actually makes me want to see more Sen. I'm surprised he's as high as he is. Although I think he's an elite player, I wouldn't think he had enough high-profile wins/exposure to get this many votes.

I also don't think Stephano should be as high as he is; I don't think he's currently as good as Select or Naniwa, and he's not as accomplished as Idra.

And I'm going to support everyone saying White-Ra deserves at least a mention.

Also, someone mentioned Chinese players, and I honestly don't know any besides Loner. The Chinese community feels so separate. Korea is definitely its own thing, but everyone follows it; and although SEA/NA/Europe are all distinct, they all come to TL and compete in almost all the same big tourneys (MLG/Dreamhack/IPL/NASL/What-have-you.)

pretty sure stephano is easily as good as naniwa or select
JediGamer
Profile Joined August 2010
United States656 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-25 07:19:48
September 25 2011 07:19 GMT
#731
On September 25 2011 16:15 ReignFayth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2011 14:53 ComTrav wrote:
I pretty much agree with Huk/Thorzain being the top two; I think you could build a convincing case for either. I personally like Thorzain, but I think Huk has had more success overall.

This thread actually makes me want to see more Sen. I'm surprised he's as high as he is. Although I think he's an elite player, I wouldn't think he had enough high-profile wins/exposure to get this many votes.

I also don't think Stephano should be as high as he is; I don't think he's currently as good as Select or Naniwa, and he's not as accomplished as Idra.

And I'm going to support everyone saying White-Ra deserves at least a mention.

Also, someone mentioned Chinese players, and I honestly don't know any besides Loner. The Chinese community feels so separate. Korea is definitely its own thing, but everyone follows it; and although SEA/NA/Europe are all distinct, they all come to TL and compete in almost all the same big tourneys (MLG/Dreamhack/IPL/NASL/What-have-you.)

pretty sure stephano is easily as good as naniwa or select


Stephano is without a doubt better than Select, who seems to dwindle the longer a game goes. As for Huk "cuz hes code-S". in GSL Huk has had by far out of koreans/nonkoreans the easiest opponents, easiest groups, and luckiest matches. With the new format you have to basically lose every game to get dropped. Its not just bias. He was INVITED, he couldn't qualify for code A even.
http://www.z33k.com/starcraft2/coach/sc2coaching Tastosis Approved Coaching
goswser
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3548 Posts
September 25 2011 07:21 GMT
#732
how did sase get on your list and not whitera wtf is wrong with you
say you were born into a jungle indian tribe where food was scarce...would you run around from teepee to teepee stealing meat scraps after a day lazying around doing nothing except warming urself by a fire that you didn't even make yourself? -rekrul
_Quasar_
Profile Joined October 2010
Russian Federation4405 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-25 07:24:55
September 25 2011 07:23 GMT
#733
where (T)Happy? O_o
That BoxeR-esque "i'll train 1 strat and you cant do shit about it" is awesome
For the Swarm!!! Jaedong & Neo_G.Soulkey fan.
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
September 25 2011 07:26 GMT
#734
I find it hilarious Idra makes it on top of ANY list these days. The only reason we don't consider him as "fallen" as Jinro is that we didn't witness it gradually in the most competitive tournament. Instead, we saw his results lack improvement, except that was in the foreign scene. I hope that changes while he's in Korea, but until then, I don't see him as REAL competition for "best" anything.
FrostedMiniWheats
Profile Joined August 2010
United States30730 Posts
September 25 2011 07:34 GMT
#735
On September 25 2011 16:23 _Quasar_ wrote:
where (T)Happy? O_o
That BoxeR-esque "i'll train 1 strat and you cant do shit about it" is awesome


You mean the guy everyone was overhyping prior to Dreamhack Summer for the high ladder rank and marine micro? Then Dreamhack came and he didn't even get out of his group and was never talked about again?

Yea, he's not on the list because he doesn't belong there.
NesTea | Mvp | MC | Leenock | Losira | Gumiho | DRG | Taeja | Jinro | Stephano | Thorzain | Sen | Idra |Polt | Bomber | Symbol | Squirtle | Fantasy | Jaedong | Maru | sOs | Seed | ByuN | ByuL | Neeb| Scarlett | Rogue | IM forever
tuho12345
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
4482 Posts
September 25 2011 07:35 GMT
#736
On September 25 2011 16:19 JediGamer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2011 16:15 ReignFayth wrote:
On September 25 2011 14:53 ComTrav wrote:
I pretty much agree with Huk/Thorzain being the top two; I think you could build a convincing case for either. I personally like Thorzain, but I think Huk has had more success overall.

This thread actually makes me want to see more Sen. I'm surprised he's as high as he is. Although I think he's an elite player, I wouldn't think he had enough high-profile wins/exposure to get this many votes.

I also don't think Stephano should be as high as he is; I don't think he's currently as good as Select or Naniwa, and he's not as accomplished as Idra.

And I'm going to support everyone saying White-Ra deserves at least a mention.

Also, someone mentioned Chinese players, and I honestly don't know any besides Loner. The Chinese community feels so separate. Korea is definitely its own thing, but everyone follows it; and although SEA/NA/Europe are all distinct, they all come to TL and compete in almost all the same big tourneys (MLG/Dreamhack/IPL/NASL/What-have-you.)

pretty sure stephano is easily as good as naniwa or select


Stephano is without a doubt better than Select, who seems to dwindle the longer a game goes. As for Huk "cuz hes code-S". in GSL Huk has had by far out of koreans/nonkoreans the easiest opponents, easiest groups, and luckiest matches. With the new format you have to basically lose every game to get dropped. Its not just bias. He was INVITED, he couldn't qualify for code A even.

lol if Stephano is better, then what's tourney has he won beside some small online tourney lol. Please you're just too bias. We only talk base on facts and numbers don't lie. May be you like Stephano's style or you're Zerg but that doesn't make him any better.
Mattchew
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States5684 Posts
September 25 2011 07:38 GMT
#737
dimaga!
There is always tomorrow nshs.seal.
Elean
Profile Joined October 2010
689 Posts
September 25 2011 07:47 GMT
#738
I don't understand people giving DH finals DRG vs Thorzain as example to show how good Thorain is.

In game 2, Thorzain did game ending damage with an elevator play that caught DRG off guard. It's just a build order timing, that worked great this time. But it's not a demonstration of impressive skills. Watching the rest of the game, Thorzain looked really bad.

In game 4, DRG would have crushed Thorzain if he hadn't forgotten banneling speed.

So yeah, Thorzain can take games out of DRG if he is lucky enough to catch him off guard or to have DRG make a huge mistake.

Even if the score doesn't show it, I think that in this serie Thorzain was really below the korean terrans level.
merlin101
Profile Joined July 2010
Switzerland194 Posts
September 25 2011 07:50 GMT
#739
On September 25 2011 15:30 Mordiford wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2011 15:09 VPCursed wrote:
kind of surprised naniwa is so low. id put him above idra atm TBH... maybe even sen


IdrA always gets a ton of votes in any poll regarding anything.

Thats funny because its true! He has a ton of votes in both votes...
nehcnhoj
Profile Joined July 2010
United States213 Posts
September 25 2011 07:52 GMT
#740
+ Show Spoiler +
On September 25 2011 16:35 tuho12345 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2011 16:19 JediGamer wrote:
On September 25 2011 16:15 ReignFayth wrote:
On September 25 2011 14:53 ComTrav wrote:
I pretty much agree with Huk/Thorzain being the top two; I think you could build a convincing case for either. I personally like Thorzain, but I think Huk has had more success overall.

This thread actually makes me want to see more Sen. I'm surprised he's as high as he is. Although I think he's an elite player, I wouldn't think he had enough high-profile wins/exposure to get this many votes.

I also don't think Stephano should be as high as he is; I don't think he's currently as good as Select or Naniwa, and he's not as accomplished as Idra.

And I'm going to support everyone saying White-Ra deserves at least a mention.

Also, someone mentioned Chinese players, and I honestly don't know any besides Loner. The Chinese community feels so separate. Korea is definitely its own thing, but everyone follows it; and although SEA/NA/Europe are all distinct, they all come to TL and compete in almost all the same big tourneys (MLG/Dreamhack/IPL/NASL/What-have-you.)

pretty sure stephano is easily as good as naniwa or select


Stephano is without a doubt better than Select, who seems to dwindle the longer a game goes. As for Huk "cuz hes code-S". in GSL Huk has had by far out of koreans/nonkoreans the easiest opponents, easiest groups, and luckiest matches. With the new format you have to basically lose every game to get dropped. Its not just bias. He was INVITED, he couldn't qualify for code A even.

lol if Stephano is better, then what's tourney has he won beside some small online tourney lol. Please you're just too bias. We only talk base on facts and numbers don't lie. May be you like Stephano's style or you're Zerg but that doesn't make him any better.


I am never one to base a players skill on his results, but since you asked:

His Ladder record (considering EU is widely regarded to be the best foreigner grounds outside of those having gone to Korea), Beating MMA to qualify as the top seed for IPL3 in his qualifier. So many others really, I believe he's been a regular top spot contender for almost every monthly tournament round-up here on TL.

Results and stats aside, make it a point to watch out for his streams. He doesn't stream too often, but when he does it is a sheer beauty to watch. I have my fair share of QQs as Zerg, but watching him play dispels any of those fears. Watch his stream. It's a treat.
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