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On September 25 2011 12:07 Joey Wheeler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2011 11:54 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On September 25 2011 10:44 critique wrote:
Huk is in Code S. Thorzain is not.
Don't get me wrong, Thorzain is a hell of a player, but he lost in code A ro 32. For me results trump all other considerations, so the only foreigner competing in the toughest tournament in the world is, by default, the best foreigner.
This just doesn't hold up for me. When I look at the competitors who are coming to an event I like to size everyone up. Among the foreigners I try to look at just who is more likely to do overall better in this tournament (without knowing where they land in the bracket) who would I bet on. Basically what I'm getting at is, who plays this game better. I look at Huk and I look at Thorzain. I pick Thorzain. That's the better player, fuck if you're code S or not, there are many circumstances for as to why you are or aren't. Who truly looks like they play at a higher level in recent times (past 3-4 months). Should it be: Huk, the hit or miss guy with excellent micro, generally decent macro, but sometimes questionable decision making. The guy who can be a maestro with blink stalkers and has moments of brilliance (like the hold of Thorzain's Thor rush at dreamhack or when he beat Naniwa at Homestory), but then also will sometimes build a fuckton of sentries, get overly aggressive, paint the map with unnecessary forcefields, and just flat out die. But he has better results. OR Thorzain. Patient, very calm, excellent macro, occasionally tries uncommon strategies, and is generally a smarter player. However, sometimes he's a little tooooo passive and methodical and at others his production just doesn't quite line up with what he's doing. Thorzain has the edge in my book. So more passive = smarter player? I fear for SC2...
No, being passive comes with being a more macro-oriented player. What I mean is that sometimes Thorzain falls into being a little too slow to seize key opportunities to kill his opponent. Or at others he'll have a clear upper hand and simply won't go in for the killing blow until everything is just right. Overall though, I would say I prefer his style to Huk's. This can be seen in his games against ret and a few with Dongraegu.
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On September 25 2011 12:16 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2011 12:07 Joey Wheeler wrote:On September 25 2011 11:54 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On September 25 2011 10:44 critique wrote:
Huk is in Code S. Thorzain is not.
Don't get me wrong, Thorzain is a hell of a player, but he lost in code A ro 32. For me results trump all other considerations, so the only foreigner competing in the toughest tournament in the world is, by default, the best foreigner.
This just doesn't hold up for me. When I look at the competitors who are coming to an event I like to size everyone up. Among the foreigners I try to look at just who is more likely to do overall better in this tournament (without knowing where they land in the bracket) who would I bet on. Basically what I'm getting at is, who plays this game better. I look at Huk and I look at Thorzain. I pick Thorzain. That's the better player, fuck if you're code S or not, there are many circumstances for as to why you are or aren't. Who truly looks like they play at a higher level in recent times (past 3-4 months). Should it be: Huk, the hit or miss guy with excellent micro, generally decent macro, but sometimes questionable decision making. The guy who can be a maestro with blink stalkers and has moments of brilliance (like the hold of Thorzain's Thor rush at dreamhack or when he beat Naniwa at Homestory), but then also will sometimes build a fuckton of sentries, get overly aggressive, paint the map with unnecessary forcefields, and just flat out die. But he has better results. OR Thorzain. Patient, very calm, excellent macro, occasionally tries uncommon strategies, and is generally a smarter player. However, sometimes he's a little tooooo passive and methodical and at others his production just doesn't quite line up with what he's doing. Thorzain has the edge in my book. So more passive = smarter player? I fear for SC2... No, being passive comes with being a more macro-oriented player. What I mean is that sometimes Thorzain falls into being a little too slow to seize key opportunities to kill his opponent. Or at others he'll have a clear upper hand and simply won't go in for the killing blow until everything is just right. Overall though, I would say I prefer his style to Huk's. This can be seen in his games against ret and a few with Dongraegu.
I feel like people too often try to lock a player in, "oh, he's a passive macro player, and won't attack until he gets attacked," which, while some players like that definitely exist, i don't want to try to just throw all players into that, or "he only allins, or timing attacks"
I personally am loving huk's play atm, i feel like he's incredibly strong and that's why i voted for him.
And voted for kas and white-ra for the others on the other two
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Idra is probably still the best NA player after Huk.
The fact that so many people don't think he deserves a place in this poll made me realize that NA is as far from EU than EU is from KR.
NA still have the best tourneys outside Korea though.
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thorzain is the fucking shit!!!!!11
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On September 25 2011 12:24 Elean wrote:
Idra is probably still the best NA player after Huk.
The fact that so many people don't think he deserves a place in this poll made me realize that NA is as far from EU than EU is from KR.
NA still have the best tourneys outside Korea though.
Erm, I would say there are quite a few players within NA that could probably beat IdrA. He often loses to mid/upper-mid tier players as well because of the way he plays. I guess it's fine to have him on the list but at that point you should probably include players like Kiwikaki, Sheth and various others as well.
But yes, there is a gap between NA and other regions, that is fairly obvious.
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I dunno about Huk and Jinro...I don't consider them westerners anymore. They've spent a year in Korea, they're converted now. Living in a Korean progaming house playing on the korean ladder for an extended period of time with no lag is a huuuuge advantage over pros in the west.
Just like how I think Select is a foreigner. Even though his nationality is Korean and he's practicing in Korea right now, he's spent most of his SC2 time in the west. To me its more about the competitive environment, and less about nationality/language.
It's kinda like comparing minor league baseball to major league baseball. They're not on the same competitive level, even though both have talented professionals.
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On September 25 2011 12:16 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2011 12:07 Joey Wheeler wrote:On September 25 2011 11:54 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On September 25 2011 10:44 critique wrote:
Huk is in Code S. Thorzain is not.
Don't get me wrong, Thorzain is a hell of a player, but he lost in code A ro 32. For me results trump all other considerations, so the only foreigner competing in the toughest tournament in the world is, by default, the best foreigner.
This just doesn't hold up for me. When I look at the competitors who are coming to an event I like to size everyone up. Among the foreigners I try to look at just who is more likely to do overall better in this tournament (without knowing where they land in the bracket) who would I bet on. Basically what I'm getting at is, who plays this game better. I look at Huk and I look at Thorzain. I pick Thorzain. That's the better player, fuck if you're code S or not, there are many circumstances for as to why you are or aren't. Who truly looks like they play at a higher level in recent times (past 3-4 months). Should it be: Huk, the hit or miss guy with excellent micro, generally decent macro, but sometimes questionable decision making. The guy who can be a maestro with blink stalkers and has moments of brilliance (like the hold of Thorzain's Thor rush at dreamhack or when he beat Naniwa at Homestory), but then also will sometimes build a fuckton of sentries, get overly aggressive, paint the map with unnecessary forcefields, and just flat out die. But he has better results. OR Thorzain. Patient, very calm, excellent macro, occasionally tries uncommon strategies, and is generally a smarter player. However, sometimes he's a little tooooo passive and methodical and at others his production just doesn't quite line up with what he's doing. Thorzain has the edge in my book. So more passive = smarter player? I fear for SC2... No, being passive comes with being a more macro-oriented player. What I mean is that sometimes Thorzain falls into being a little too slow to seize key opportunities to kill his opponent. Or at others he'll have a clear upper hand and simply won't go in for the killing blow until everything is just right. Overall though, I would say I prefer his style to Huk's. This can be seen in his games against ret and a few with Dongraegu.
Being passive if you go macro mode just shows you lack the multitasking and the mechanics to be able to still do something while you are in a passive macro mode. Here is a clear difference between Huk's play and Thorzain's play: while Thorzain sticks to the more "passive macro" foreign style, Huk attempts the Korean way of being aggressive WHILE macroing. There is nothing stopping you from doing multiprong drops while you're macroing apart from APM. Thorzain is not the fastest player, he can definitely benefit by doing a new approach. Huk tends to look sloppy because he's not at the level yet to fully utilize it.
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United States7483 Posts
On September 25 2011 12:36 Joey Wheeler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2011 12:16 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On September 25 2011 12:07 Joey Wheeler wrote:On September 25 2011 11:54 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On September 25 2011 10:44 critique wrote:
Huk is in Code S. Thorzain is not.
Don't get me wrong, Thorzain is a hell of a player, but he lost in code A ro 32. For me results trump all other considerations, so the only foreigner competing in the toughest tournament in the world is, by default, the best foreigner.
This just doesn't hold up for me. When I look at the competitors who are coming to an event I like to size everyone up. Among the foreigners I try to look at just who is more likely to do overall better in this tournament (without knowing where they land in the bracket) who would I bet on. Basically what I'm getting at is, who plays this game better. I look at Huk and I look at Thorzain. I pick Thorzain. That's the better player, fuck if you're code S or not, there are many circumstances for as to why you are or aren't. Who truly looks like they play at a higher level in recent times (past 3-4 months). Should it be: Huk, the hit or miss guy with excellent micro, generally decent macro, but sometimes questionable decision making. The guy who can be a maestro with blink stalkers and has moments of brilliance (like the hold of Thorzain's Thor rush at dreamhack or when he beat Naniwa at Homestory), but then also will sometimes build a fuckton of sentries, get overly aggressive, paint the map with unnecessary forcefields, and just flat out die. But he has better results. OR Thorzain. Patient, very calm, excellent macro, occasionally tries uncommon strategies, and is generally a smarter player. However, sometimes he's a little tooooo passive and methodical and at others his production just doesn't quite line up with what he's doing. Thorzain has the edge in my book. So more passive = smarter player? I fear for SC2... No, being passive comes with being a more macro-oriented player. What I mean is that sometimes Thorzain falls into being a little too slow to seize key opportunities to kill his opponent. Or at others he'll have a clear upper hand and simply won't go in for the killing blow until everything is just right. Overall though, I would say I prefer his style to Huk's. This can be seen in his games against ret and a few with Dongraegu. Being passive if you go macro mode just shows you lack the multitasking and the mechanics to be able to still do something while you are in a passive macro mode. Here is a clear difference between Huk's play and Thorzain's play: while Thorzain sticks to the more "passive macro" foreign style, Huk attempts the Korean way of being aggressive WHILE macroing. There is nothing stopping you from doing multiprong drops while you're macroing apart from APM. Thorzain is not the fastest player, he can definitely benefit by doing a new approach. Huk tends to look sloppy because he's not at the level yet to fully utilize it.
Thorzain plays the well he does because terran is actually very well suited to slow, methodical play. The race is not only the most complete, but also the race that is most able to maintain a lead and avoid silly losses, due to having the strongest defensive based play with tanks, planetary fortresses, turrets and bunkers (which can be built anywhere to reinforce a position) as well as having no melee units. The race has the strongest contains and the strongest slow pushes as well as the greatest harass potential. If you are capable of maintaining a lead and slowly improving it, it's almost always a great idea to do it, so long as you are safe from weird all-in counters etc.
It's really hard to play catch up with a good terran player once he's got the lead.
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Huk, only foreigner besides Jinro to actually be successful in gsl code s, even with his recent mtahces losing in round 1, he still consistanly makes code s, even after all the other good foreigners started falling (Jinro, Idra, etc.), but i think the 12 players that are winning this poll (huk and thorzain) is accurate, most koreans agree that they are the 2 best foreigners
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On September 25 2011 12:16 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2011 12:07 Joey Wheeler wrote:On September 25 2011 11:54 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On September 25 2011 10:44 critique wrote:
Huk is in Code S. Thorzain is not.
Don't get me wrong, Thorzain is a hell of a player, but he lost in code A ro 32. For me results trump all other considerations, so the only foreigner competing in the toughest tournament in the world is, by default, the best foreigner.
This just doesn't hold up for me. When I look at the competitors who are coming to an event I like to size everyone up. Among the foreigners I try to look at just who is more likely to do overall better in this tournament (without knowing where they land in the bracket) who would I bet on. Basically what I'm getting at is, who plays this game better. I look at Huk and I look at Thorzain. I pick Thorzain. That's the better player, fuck if you're code S or not, there are many circumstances for as to why you are or aren't. Who truly looks like they play at a higher level in recent times (past 3-4 months). Should it be: Huk, the hit or miss guy with excellent micro, generally decent macro, but sometimes questionable decision making. The guy who can be a maestro with blink stalkers and has moments of brilliance (like the hold of Thorzain's Thor rush at dreamhack or when he beat Naniwa at Homestory), but then also will sometimes build a fuckton of sentries, get overly aggressive, paint the map with unnecessary forcefields, and just flat out die. But he has better results. OR Thorzain. Patient, very calm, excellent macro, occasionally tries uncommon strategies, and is generally a smarter player. However, sometimes he's a little tooooo passive and methodical and at others his production just doesn't quite line up with what he's doing. Thorzain has the edge in my book. So more passive = smarter player? I fear for SC2... No, being passive comes with being a more macro-oriented player. What I mean is that sometimes Thorzain falls into being a little too slow to seize key opportunities to kill his opponent. Or at others he'll have a clear upper hand and simply won't go in for the killing blow until everything is just right. Overall though, I would say I prefer his style to Huk's. This can be seen in his games against ret and a few with Dongraegu.
You can be a macro player and be super aggressive and active. Sitting on X number of bases and just macroing requires little skill
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On September 25 2011 12:51 FusionMrWet wrote:
Huk, only foreigner besides Jinro to actually be successful in gsl code s, even with his recent mtahces losing in round 1, he still consistanly makes code s, even after all the other good foreigners started falling (Jinro, Idra, etc.), but i think the 12 players that are winning this poll (huk and thorzain) is accurate, most koreans agree that they are the 2 best foreigners
IdrA never once fell out of code S.
Not only did he never get knocked out of code S, he qualified to code S through the open qualifiers 3x in a row, and was in code S 4-5 seasons total without getting knocked out a single time in the opening round. And he's qualified for code S every single time he's tried. By far the most consistent foreigner in the GSL. IdrA only left code S, of his own free will, because of increasing foreign tournaments. HuK's only been in code S 1-2 seasons now hasn't he? And he didn't actually qualify for Code A, he got a free slot.
There's a pretty big difference between HuK's and IdrA's GSL runs.
HuK is still super awesome though ofc, and has a bit higher class play recently compared to IdrA. Just saying you were wrong.
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On September 25 2011 00:51 Denzil wrote:
I haven't been up to date with Stephano lately but what has he done against Koreans? The only thing I think I can remember is him getting crushed by MC at HSC
he beat MMA and another big korean in IPL just last week, mind you it was online, and the korean lag was probably there.
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On September 25 2011 13:01 ThaZenith wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2011 12:51 FusionMrWet wrote:
Huk, only foreigner besides Jinro to actually be successful in gsl code s, even with his recent mtahces losing in round 1, he still consistanly makes code s, even after all the other good foreigners started falling (Jinro, Idra, etc.), but i think the 12 players that are winning this poll (huk and thorzain) is accurate, most koreans agree that they are the 2 best foreigners IdrA never once fell out of code S. Not only did he never once get knocked out of code S, he qualified to code S through the open qualifiers 3x in a row, and was in code S 4-5 seasons total without once getting knocked out in the opening round. Never once did he not get into code S when he wanted to, he's qualified every single time he's tried.. By far the most consistent foreigner in the GSL. IdrA only left code S because of increasing foreign tournaments. HuK's only been in code S 1-2 seasons now hasn't he? And he didn't actually qualify for Code A, he got a free slot. There's a pretty big difference between HuK's and IdrA's GSL runs. HuK is still super awesome though ofc, and has a bit higher class play recently compared to IdrA. Just saying you were wrong.
You are 100% correct, i misspoke, sorry, and idra didnt qualify for code s, he consistantly qualified for the open gsl, when there was no code s or a, there was just gsl, when Huk finally qualified, idra was gone, and code s and a had just started. but i meant was totally different from wat i said, my bad lol he also didnt compete 4-5 seasons, just 3, his last season was the last open season in which MC won
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On September 25 2011 13:04 FusionMrWet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2011 13:01 ThaZenith wrote:On September 25 2011 12:51 FusionMrWet wrote:
Huk, only foreigner besides Jinro to actually be successful in gsl code s, even with his recent mtahces losing in round 1, he still consistanly makes code s, even after all the other good foreigners started falling (Jinro, Idra, etc.), but i think the 12 players that are winning this poll (huk and thorzain) is accurate, most koreans agree that they are the 2 best foreigners IdrA never once fell out of code S. Not only did he never once get knocked out of code S, he qualified to code S through the open qualifiers 3x in a row, and was in code S 4-5 seasons total without once getting knocked out in the opening round. Never once did he not get into code S when he wanted to, he's qualified every single time he's tried.. By far the most consistent foreigner in the GSL. IdrA only left code S because of increasing foreign tournaments. HuK's only been in code S 1-2 seasons now hasn't he? And he didn't actually qualify for Code A, he got a free slot. There's a pretty big difference between HuK's and IdrA's GSL runs. HuK is still super awesome though ofc, and has a bit higher class play recently compared to IdrA. Just saying you were wrong. You are 100% correct, i misspoke, sorry, and idra didnt qualify for code s, he consistantly qualified for the open gsl, when there was no code s or a, there was just gsl, but i meant was totally different from wat i said, my bad lol
Oh ya, that's what I meant too. Just consider that "open" and code S as the same level since they both had the highest tier of players in them.
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On September 25 2011 13:05 ThaZenith wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2011 13:04 FusionMrWet wrote:On September 25 2011 13:01 ThaZenith wrote:On September 25 2011 12:51 FusionMrWet wrote:
Huk, only foreigner besides Jinro to actually be successful in gsl code s, even with his recent mtahces losing in round 1, he still consistanly makes code s, even after all the other good foreigners started falling (Jinro, Idra, etc.), but i think the 12 players that are winning this poll (huk and thorzain) is accurate, most koreans agree that they are the 2 best foreigners IdrA never once fell out of code S. Not only did he never once get knocked out of code S, he qualified to code S through the open qualifiers 3x in a row, and was in code S 4-5 seasons total without once getting knocked out in the opening round. Never once did he not get into code S when he wanted to, he's qualified every single time he's tried.. By far the most consistent foreigner in the GSL. IdrA only left code S because of increasing foreign tournaments. HuK's only been in code S 1-2 seasons now hasn't he? And he didn't actually qualify for Code A, he got a free slot. There's a pretty big difference between HuK's and IdrA's GSL runs. HuK is still super awesome though ofc, and has a bit higher class play recently compared to IdrA. Just saying you were wrong. You are 100% correct, i misspoke, sorry, and idra didnt qualify for code s, he consistantly qualified for the open gsl, when there was no code s or a, there was just gsl, but i meant was totally different from wat i said, my bad lol yea man i get u, dnt get me wrong i meant idra is extremley talented, but as of late huk has been playing better and is a better foreigner, back when idra was playing in the gsl he was better then huk though, but being in korea put huk on another level, winning dreamhack/HSC, idra has put up some good tournament stuff since IPL, like i said, im not knockin idras skill, just dont think as of right now he is better then huk Oh ya, that's what I meant too. Just consider that "open" and code S as the same level since they both had the highest tier of players in them.
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[QUOTE]On September 25 2011 13:05 ThaZenith wrote:
[QUOTE]On September 25 2011 13:04 FusionMrWet wrote:
[QUOTE]On September 25 2011 13:01 ThaZenith wrote:
[QUOTE]On September 25 2011 12:51 FusionMrWet wrote:
Huk, only foreigner besides Jinro to actually be successful in gsl code s, even with his recent mtahces losing in round 1, he still consistanly makes code s, even after all the other good foreigners started falling (Jinro, Idra, etc.), but i think the 12 players that are winning this poll (huk and thorzain) is accurate, most koreans agree that they are the 2 best foreigners [/QUOTE]
IdrA never once fell out of code S.
Not only did he never once get knocked out of code S, he qualified to code S through the open qualifiers 3x in a row, and was in code S 4-5 seasons total without once getting knocked out in the opening round. Never once did he not get into code S when he wanted to, he's qualified every single time he's tried.. By far the most consistent foreigner in the GSL. IdrA only left code S because of increasing foreign tournaments. HuK's only been in code S 1-2 seasons now hasn't he? And he didn't actually qualify for Code A, he got a free slot.
There's a pretty big difference between HuK's and IdrA's GSL runs.
HuK is still super awesome though ofc, and has a bit higher class play recently compared to IdrA. Just saying you were wrong.[/QUOTE]
You are 100% correct, i misspoke, sorry, and idra didnt qualify for code s, he consistantly qualified for the open gsl, when there was no code s or a, there was just gsl, but i meant was totally different from wat i said, my bad lol[/QUOTE]
and idk if i would put the open tournament on the same levels as code s and a, back then players like TLO, incontrol, and other good but not top liners would make the gsl or make it close to qualifying, plus if you think about it fruitdealer won the first gsl but struggles to stay in code a now, and jinro made a great run and also struggles with code a, i think todays gsl's are 10x harder then the open gsl's, talent wise, and format wise
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^^ wow i fucked that quote up really bad lol, anyway heres wat i meant to say since i couldt seam to fix it
idk if i would put the open tournament on the same levels as code s and a, back then players like TLO, incontrol, and other good but not top liners would make the gsl or make it close to qualifying, plus if you think about it fruitdealer won the first gsl but struggles to stay in code a now, and jinro made a great run and also struggles with code a, i think todays gsl's are 10x harder then the open gsl's, talent wise, and format wise
just sooo many better players emerged after code a and s started because teams were adding sc2 divisions after seeing how popular it was which brought forth much better talent
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On September 25 2011 12:47 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2011 12:36 Joey Wheeler wrote:On September 25 2011 12:16 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On September 25 2011 12:07 Joey Wheeler wrote:On September 25 2011 11:54 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On September 25 2011 10:44 critique wrote:
Huk is in Code S. Thorzain is not.
Don't get me wrong, Thorzain is a hell of a player, but he lost in code A ro 32. For me results trump all other considerations, so the only foreigner competing in the toughest tournament in the world is, by default, the best foreigner.
This just doesn't hold up for me. When I look at the competitors who are coming to an event I like to size everyone up. Among the foreigners I try to look at just who is more likely to do overall better in this tournament (without knowing where they land in the bracket) who would I bet on. Basically what I'm getting at is, who plays this game better. I look at Huk and I look at Thorzain. I pick Thorzain. That's the better player, fuck if you're code S or not, there are many circumstances for as to why you are or aren't. Who truly looks like they play at a higher level in recent times (past 3-4 months). Should it be: Huk, the hit or miss guy with excellent micro, generally decent macro, but sometimes questionable decision making. The guy who can be a maestro with blink stalkers and has moments of brilliance (like the hold of Thorzain's Thor rush at dreamhack or when he beat Naniwa at Homestory), but then also will sometimes build a fuckton of sentries, get overly aggressive, paint the map with unnecessary forcefields, and just flat out die. But he has better results. OR Thorzain. Patient, very calm, excellent macro, occasionally tries uncommon strategies, and is generally a smarter player. However, sometimes he's a little tooooo passive and methodical and at others his production just doesn't quite line up with what he's doing. Thorzain has the edge in my book. So more passive = smarter player? I fear for SC2... No, being passive comes with being a more macro-oriented player. What I mean is that sometimes Thorzain falls into being a little too slow to seize key opportunities to kill his opponent. Or at others he'll have a clear upper hand and simply won't go in for the killing blow until everything is just right. Overall though, I would say I prefer his style to Huk's. This can be seen in his games against ret and a few with Dongraegu. Being passive if you go macro mode just shows you lack the multitasking and the mechanics to be able to still do something while you are in a passive macro mode. Here is a clear difference between Huk's play and Thorzain's play: while Thorzain sticks to the more "passive macro" foreign style, Huk attempts the Korean way of being aggressive WHILE macroing. There is nothing stopping you from doing multiprong drops while you're macroing apart from APM. Thorzain is not the fastest player, he can definitely benefit by doing a new approach. Huk tends to look sloppy because he's not at the level yet to fully utilize it. Thorzain plays the well he does because terran is actually very well suited to slow, methodical play. The race is not only the most complete, but also the race that is most able to maintain a lead and avoid silly losses, due to having the strongest defensive based play with tanks, planetary fortresses, turrets and bunkers (which can be built anywhere to reinforce a position) as well as having no melee units. The race has the strongest contains and the strongest slow pushes as well as the greatest harass potential. If you are capable of maintaining a lead and slowly improving it, it's almost always a great idea to do it, so long as you are safe from weird all-in counters etc. It's really hard to play catch up with a good terran player once he's got the lead.
So are we now assuming that Thorzain wins 100% of his games? Because to me, it seems much lower than that, and by being more aggressive he can change that. Yes, of course Terran has strong self defense. But they also have amazing harassing capabilities. Why not use both?
Also, who wants to watch a passive player? It's incredibly boring.
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On September 25 2011 13:16 Joey Wheeler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2011 12:47 Whitewing wrote:On September 25 2011 12:36 Joey Wheeler wrote:On September 25 2011 12:16 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On September 25 2011 12:07 Joey Wheeler wrote:On September 25 2011 11:54 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On September 25 2011 10:44 critique wrote:
Huk is in Code S. Thorzain is not.
Don't get me wrong, Thorzain is a hell of a player, but he lost in code A ro 32. For me results trump all other considerations, so the only foreigner competing in the toughest tournament in the world is, by default, the best foreigner.
This just doesn't hold up for me. When I look at the competitors who are coming to an event I like to size everyone up. Among the foreigners I try to look at just who is more likely to do overall better in this tournament (without knowing where they land in the bracket) who would I bet on. Basically what I'm getting at is, who plays this game better. I look at Huk and I look at Thorzain. I pick Thorzain. That's the better player, fuck if you're code S or not, there are many circumstances for as to why you are or aren't. Who truly looks like they play at a higher level in recent times (past 3-4 months). Should it be: Huk, the hit or miss guy with excellent micro, generally decent macro, but sometimes questionable decision making. The guy who can be a maestro with blink stalkers and has moments of brilliance (like the hold of Thorzain's Thor rush at dreamhack or when he beat Naniwa at Homestory), but then also will sometimes build a fuckton of sentries, get overly aggressive, paint the map with unnecessary forcefields, and just flat out die. But he has better results. OR Thorzain. Patient, very calm, excellent macro, occasionally tries uncommon strategies, and is generally a smarter player. However, sometimes he's a little tooooo passive and methodical and at others his production just doesn't quite line up with what he's doing. Thorzain has the edge in my book. So more passive = smarter player? I fear for SC2... No, being passive comes with being a more macro-oriented player. What I mean is that sometimes Thorzain falls into being a little too slow to seize key opportunities to kill his opponent. Or at others he'll have a clear upper hand and simply won't go in for the killing blow until everything is just right. Overall though, I would say I prefer his style to Huk's. This can be seen in his games against ret and a few with Dongraegu. Being passive if you go macro mode just shows you lack the multitasking and the mechanics to be able to still do something while you are in a passive macro mode. Here is a clear difference between Huk's play and Thorzain's play: while Thorzain sticks to the more "passive macro" foreign style, Huk attempts the Korean way of being aggressive WHILE macroing. There is nothing stopping you from doing multiprong drops while you're macroing apart from APM. Thorzain is not the fastest player, he can definitely benefit by doing a new approach. Huk tends to look sloppy because he's not at the level yet to fully utilize it. Thorzain plays the well he does because terran is actually very well suited to slow, methodical play. The race is not only the most complete, but also the race that is most able to maintain a lead and avoid silly losses, due to having the strongest defensive based play with tanks, planetary fortresses, turrets and bunkers (which can be built anywhere to reinforce a position) as well as having no melee units. The race has the strongest contains and the strongest slow pushes as well as the greatest harass potential. If you are capable of maintaining a lead and slowly improving it, it's almost always a great idea to do it, so long as you are safe from weird all-in counters etc. It's really hard to play catch up with a good terran player once he's got the lead. So are we now assuming that Thorzain wins 100% of his games? Because to me, it seems much lower than that, and by being more aggressive he can change that. Yes, of course Terran has strong self defense. But they also have amazing harassing capabilities. Why not use both? Also, who wants to watch a passive player? It's incredibly boring.
WTF are you talking about? Thorzain isnt less agressive than anyone else, honestly he uses a lot of all in builds atleast 1 per series. What his problem seems to be is that he uses Artosis mantra
' when you're ahead get more ahead' a bit too much and by that sometimes lets his opponents back into games.
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EPT
