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On September 24 2011 01:23 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 01:20 Blasterion wrote:On September 24 2011 01:03 nanaoei wrote:
certainly it's easier to stick to your guns than to continually experiment with a carrier unit mix,
but i also think that thought keeps a good deal of players away from even trying.
it's not viable now, but i'd like a lot of players to realize that it doesn't mean it won't be viable sometime later. it's obvious i'm trying to be more positive on a broad scale.
i have a strong opinion that the viking isn't [already] the be-all end-all for the carrier...if all that wasnt apparent already either haha. in the first place, it's the interaction of the many different protoss units that makes it bearable in the P v T matchup when terran units can be so cost efficient on the white board. the first thing i hear when the beta kicks off is this marine unit being imba, and it's something i hear when i wake up to a bunch of raging these days too.
there are so many friends to whom i try to teach the basics to, for many of them it's much easier to remain grim than to look forward to getting better at how they're playing. Viking vs Carrier is really similar to Golaith vs Carrier, as Vikings are extremely fragile. And carrier has a very long range But Vikings can fly, so Carriers can't, you know, abuse cliffs. Plus air units can stack so its much easier to get a whole volley from a control group of vikings than a similar group of Goliaths. Not to mention BW Terrans hated having to build Goliaths while SC2 Terrans have to build Vikings to not be raped by Robo tech. I'm just saying Carriers are a lot less viable in SC2 even though the stats got a buff from BW.
Exactly. Part of the power of the carrier in BW was the ability for toss to abuse cliffs with good carrier positioning. And to also abuse the horrible pathing of the goliath. :D
Vikings negate this carrier positioning.
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I think blizz just wants Protoss to go colossus death ball every game. They don't care about carriers, blink time is increased, neural parasite is now pretty much useless vs colossus, and ghosts still haven't been nerfed.
There's no reason I should ever go anything other than colossus. Such a dynamic game....
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On September 24 2011 03:58 happyness wrote:
I think blizz just wants Protoss to go colossus death ball every game. They don't care about carriers, blink time is increased, neural parasite is now pretty much useless vs colossus, and ghosts still haven't been nerfed.
There's no reason I should ever go anything other than colossus. Such a dynamic game....
So you were okay with high templar every PvZ?
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On September 24 2011 02:22 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 02:11 trucejl wrote:On September 24 2011 02:06 Kon-Tiki wrote:On September 23 2011 12:17 MilesTeg wrote:
Every change makes sense, and once again Blizzard is doing a good job with their patches.
Even without looking the comments I'm sure there are people saying "Blizzard is clueless!" or "David Kim is trolling us!" because they always do, but I think the silent majority agrees with what they're doing.
I love the overseer change, and that they're looking to possibly buff ultras further in the future (you might want to underline that part too, btw, I think it's important). The silent majority is actually saying "Yeah, this patch is pretty good, but why in God's name did they change Neural Parasite and the Mothership, and not the carrier?" because as long as viking has 9 range n flies, carriers will continue to fail at its current build time and cost. they probably decided it was easier to buff mothership into something potentially useful super late game as oppose to be useless buff on the carrier just for the hell of it  Actually carriers trade very cost efficiently with Vikings, but yeah buff or no buff on the current metagame Carriers will still be useless. Although I think they could use a build time decrease though I don´t know if 2 base carrier like Mana did in some games against Zerg would break the MU XD
Yea, well, I think we have to take build time into account when we conceptualize trading efficiently.
Waiting on carriers to build makes toss vulnerable (if you've got two carriers cued up in two stargazes, thats 12 supply that isn't in your main army for two minutes.
tl'dr Building carriers ties up a lot of supply for a long period of time, making toss vulnerable, not only until they pop, but also until they've had time to build up their interceptors.
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On September 24 2011 03:59 Xahhk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 03:58 happyness wrote:
I think blizz just wants Protoss to go colossus death ball every game. They don't care about carriers, blink time is increased, neural parasite is now pretty much useless vs colossus, and ghosts still haven't been nerfed.
There's no reason I should ever go anything other than colossus. Such a dynamic game.... So you were okay with high templar every PvZ?
Before the patch coloosus were still good in PvZ, even if in the meta game they weren't being used much. And I do like HT's much better than colossus, they are a more fun unit to use and much more fun to watch, and I'd rather have the game be good from a spectator perspective than from my playing.
What I would like to see is the option for protoss air other than the early game, but obviously blizz doesnt give a shit about the carrier, they'd rather have the cheesy mothership have a slight buff.
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I kinda do like the mothership change because motherships are ridiculously good in PvZ and surprisingly enough, PvP in the 1/1000 chance it actually makes it there.
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On September 24 2011 04:00 skatbone wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 02:22 windsupernova wrote:On September 24 2011 02:11 trucejl wrote:On September 24 2011 02:06 Kon-Tiki wrote:On September 23 2011 12:17 MilesTeg wrote:
Every change makes sense, and once again Blizzard is doing a good job with their patches.
Even without looking the comments I'm sure there are people saying "Blizzard is clueless!" or "David Kim is trolling us!" because they always do, but I think the silent majority agrees with what they're doing.
I love the overseer change, and that they're looking to possibly buff ultras further in the future (you might want to underline that part too, btw, I think it's important). The silent majority is actually saying "Yeah, this patch is pretty good, but why in God's name did they change Neural Parasite and the Mothership, and not the carrier?" because as long as viking has 9 range n flies, carriers will continue to fail at its current build time and cost. they probably decided it was easier to buff mothership into something potentially useful super late game as oppose to be useless buff on the carrier just for the hell of it Actually carriers trade very cost efficiently with Vikings, but yeah buff or no buff on the current metagame Carriers will still be useless. Although I think they could use a build time decrease though I don´t know if 2 base carrier like Mana did in some games against Zerg would break the MU XD Yea, well, I think we have to take build time into account when we conceptualize trading efficiently. Waiting on carriers to build makes toss vulnerable (if you've got two carriers cued up in two stargazes, thats 12 supply that isn't in your main army for two minutes. tl'dr Building carriers ties up a lot of supply for a long period of time, making toss vulnerable, not only until they pop, but also until they've had time to build up their interceptors.
Well in BW they took 140s to complete and no chrono boost too. So I don't think it's entirely that they take too long.
I think people are overestimating the influence of vikings. Colossus also get countered by vikings. But we still make colossus. Because colossus are good.
In BW they took long to make. Difference being that, in a vacuum, they are good. And even considering the environment they were in, they still are good.
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Well first of all I really like the patch but the Neural Parasite change.
The explanation of the Neural change is pretty odd in my eyes. It looks pretty artificial to call it "an increase in decision making" ...
On the one hand I like that Blizzard is thinking about Motherships and Carriers, on the other hand I wonder why they dont buff them both to get both into the game... Carriers are pretty much impossible to micro (compared to BW) and do cost sooooo much due to the consistent cost of the interceptors...
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I feel like Blizzard just keeps thinking "O hey, we haven't seen unit x in games enough, let's BUFF THEM so people could use them more!"
I don't think this is a good approach to game balance. It also caters a lot more to casuals than people playing the game at a competitive level.
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On September 24 2011 04:21 TUski wrote:
I feel like Blizzard just keeps thinking "O hey, we haven't seen unit x in games enough, let's BUFF THEM so people could use them more!"
I don't think this is a good approach to game balance. It also caters a lot more to casuals than people playing the game at a competitive level.
On the other hand it leads to more diversity in play, giving players more options to experiment and gives opposing players more things to think about and prepare against.
This is all speaking generally of course.
On September 24 2011 01:42 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 00:35 crms wrote:On September 24 2011 00:14 Chill wrote:I really, really appreciate Blizzard putting this out. Nothing is more frustrating than not understanding the logic behind a change you don't agree with. Good read  so you're content with the logic provided? I mean.. "In the end, it came down to a choice between the Carrier and the Mothership." In the end, it came down to which unit was going to continue to be terrible and which one might be used in 1/10 games now. /gamebalanced I'm content with their logic. I don't even know against what compositions i should make Carriers. It's the same with BCs. Against what composition would you think "hmm shit i need to tech to BCs / Carriers". They aren't an useful addition to your main army. A Mothership adds more possibilities to the Protoss in the later game IF they can afford it. With the new acceleration boost it actually becomes more microable, so you'll need Hydras / Corrupters to take it down. A Mothership can potentially add more to the game if it gets buffed than a Carrier. That's the reason the MS got buffed instead of the Carrier.
I agree with this guy, the Mothership buff is all around more flexible than buffing Carriers, besides making the Mothership more viable is also an indirect buff to Carriers.
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On September 24 2011 04:21 TUski wrote:
I feel like Blizzard just keeps thinking "O hey, we haven't seen unit x in games enough, let's BUFF THEM so people could use them more!"
I don't think this is a good approach to game balance. It also caters a lot more to casuals than people playing the game at a competitive level.
It's actually a great approach, if BW has taught us anything. Instead of limiting options, so the game plays out according to the designers' preconceived notions, it's better to give the players more tools, so that they can look for a solution themselves. It actually made me rage when their rationale for the Thor nerf was "we don't like seeing Thors being massed"; that's just such a retarded reason to make the game less interesting.
Look at Protoss and Zerg, with their "this is unit X, and you should get it in situation Y" philosophy, and then look at Terran, with "this is unit X, look at how much cool stuff you can do with it!". Which seems better to you? Which do you prefer, PvP, or TvT(let's put Code S aside for the purpose of this comparison)? Clearly, a design that focuses on options, rather than purposes, makes for more interesting gameplay, and a more fun game in general.
So yeah, it's awesome that they're buffing the Immortal and the Warp Prism. Not so awesome they're nerfing the Infestor, why not buff HTs instead?
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but in TvT there is a clear cut to tech to Viking Battlecruiser.
The Meta for TvT is that Mech => Air Ghost composition that relies heavily on Cruisers as a central unit, so unlike carriers Cruisers do have that metagame role in at least one of the match ups
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I've played more than 75 games on the PTR ladder, participated heavily in the PTR discussion and I feel right now that it was a complete and utter waste of time. I have honestly never been more disappointed with Blizzard then I am now after reading that post.
They couldn't buff both the Carrier and the Mothership? They don't understand how strong/weak Ultralisks are because no one uses them? They want Mech to be balanced vs Bio, but they don't realize how powerful Marines are, and that they are the center piece of Terran? I mean, you build Tanks to protect your Marines (from Banes), not the otherway around, build Vikings to protect your Marines (from Colossus), build Ghosts to protect your Marines from casters...
Blizzard really feels this game needs only very slight tweaks to make it perfect, and I think most people disagree. A slight tweak like increased Mothership acceleration will do almost nothing to effect the balance of the game.
I could write a huge post, but I won't. Let me just say one more thing, if they spent some time thinking about it, they would realize that Ultralisks aren't being used because they aren't good (or at least, not viable due to their tech tree positioning, poor pathing, and also being so easy to counter via Marauders and Immortals), not that they are good just not used. People play this game for a living, I'd say they would take the time to figure out what units are good and viable, and which aren't. Ultralisks are easier to get now, but they still aren't as good as Brood Lords late game, and the choice between the two is still easy. In fact, you'll note all the unused expensive massive units simply are too easy to counter to make them viable, which is why they are unused.
I need to stop now.
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On September 24 2011 05:31 BronzeKnee wrote:
I could write a huge post, but I won't. Let me say one more thing, if they spent some time thinking about it, they would realize that Ultralisks aren't being used because they aren't good (or at least, not viable due to their tech tree positioning, poor pathing, and also being so easy to counter via Marauders and Immortals), not that they are good just not used. People play this game for a living, I'd say they would take the time to figure out what units are good and viable, and which aren't. Ultralisks are easier to get now, but they still aren't as good as Brood Lords late game, and the choice between the two is still easy. In fact, you'll note all the unused expensive massive units simply are too easy to counter to make them viable, which is why they are unused.
I need to stop now.
I'm not sure I agree with this. Ultralisks do have their uses. In some cases, an Ultralisk is far better than a Brood Lord.
- An Ultralisk can be used with a Nydus. A Brood Lord cannot.
- An Ultralisk builds far faster than a Brood Lord and requires fewer resources in tech.
- An Ultralisk allows your entire force to be much more mobile. You don't have to wait for your Brood Lords to attack.
- An Ultralisk can be part of a doom drop. A Brood Lord cannot.
- If you have the luxury of Brood Lord and Ultralisk tech, switching between both Ultralisks and Brood Lords gives you an enormous advantage on the battlefield and champions Zerg's strength of very rapid tech switching.
- An Ultralisk cannot be stunned or mind controlled. A Brood Lord can.
- An Ultralisk benefits from creep spread. A Brood Lord does not.
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On September 24 2011 05:55 Fiel wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 05:31 BronzeKnee wrote:
I could write a huge post, but I won't. Let me say one more thing, if they spent some time thinking about it, they would realize that Ultralisks aren't being used because they aren't good (or at least, not viable due to their tech tree positioning, poor pathing, and also being so easy to counter via Marauders and Immortals), not that they are good just not used. People play this game for a living, I'd say they would take the time to figure out what units are good and viable, and which aren't. Ultralisks are easier to get now, but they still aren't as good as Brood Lords late game, and the choice between the two is still easy. In fact, you'll note all the unused expensive massive units simply are too easy to counter to make them viable, which is why they are unused.
I need to stop now. I'm not sure I agree with this. Ultralisks do have their uses. In some cases, an Ultralisk is far better than a Brood Lord. - An Ultralisk can be used with a Nydus. A Brood Lord cannot. - An Ultralisk builds far faster than a Brood Lord and requires fewer resources in tech. - An Ultralisk allows your entire force to be much more mobile. You don't have to wait for your Brood Lords to attack. - An Ultralisk can be part of a doom drop. A Brood Lord cannot. - If you have the luxury of Brood Lord and Ultralisk tech, switching between both Ultralisks and Brood Lords gives you an enormous advantage on the battlefield and champions Zerg's strength of very rapid tech switching. - An Ultralisk cannot be stunned or mind controlled. A Brood Lord can. - An Ultralisk benefits from creep spread. A Brood Lord does not.
The list of benefits you generated is misleading. I could generate a similar list to propose making Carriers over Colossus, naming all the advantages, but it wouldn't make Carriers more viable.
The fact is, Ultralisks are easy to counter. Immortals smash them and Archons also go toe to toe with Ultralisks effectively. Void Rays are also decent against them Chances are incredibly high the Protoss has access to at least one of these units late game (not to mention that Zealots trade cost effectively against Ultralisks). Same thing with Ultralisk vs Terran due to the accessibility of Tanks, Marauders, and even Thors.
Broods obviously have counters too, but because they don't have to get close to their opponent (ie they aren't melee) they aren't quite as easy to stop, and are much easier to protect. Also they will have much better retention in engagements since they aren't a front line tanking units like Ultras.
That said, tech switching between the two can be incredibly powerful as you stated. But often times in the professional games I watch, Zerg players just stick with the Brood Lords, and it works just fine for them. Ultralisks seem to work best when they completely surprise an opponent, rather than being an intergral part of the late game Zerg army. And this make sense, since they can be hard countered so easily and can't rely on micro tactics to help them do more damage or keep them alive (as Brood Lords can when being protected by Infestors/Mutas/Corrupters/Hydras) since they are melee units. Ultralisks are in fact the defintion of an A-move unit.
So while building Ultralisks can cause a Zerg player to lose the game outright if their opponent is prepared, Broods allow Zerg to build a force that is tricky to deal with even the Protoss or Terran build the supposed "counter" because they just aren't an A-move unit that has no potential for micro.
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Yayay from david kim himself! It seems like the syntax and diction is different from previous reports.
Also, the cost between creating one Overseer for scouting purposes vs. purchasing the Overlord speed upgrade for all Overlords didn’t seem to differ enough.
Ah, good point. Didn't realize that. I wonder why so many got overseers over speed. Perhaps cus it was just faster and + contaminate.
Carrier or Mothership? That's sad. Why not help them both out a little xD
Oh yeah, David Kim didn't address Air in TvT  perhaps he is undecided about it, or not sure if it should be a priority right now for balance. Or he feels it is good enough, and that bio vs mech was the only thing that needed to be adjusted.
About the hellions killing 20 workers. Well tbh in TvT it didn't matter that much, you see pro games and lots of scvs die, but it doesn't seem to do that much damage, since TvT is slow and you can just rebuild your workers as long as you hold the line. But I guess it can't hurt, they were used too much.
Thanks situation report :D
Though the 5 sec on the rax to me is still lulz xD
Edit:
WHOA just noticed.
* David Kim is a game designer for StarCraft II and owns a Baneling pet in real life.
He just revealed that he is a game designer, not just a balancer. Or perhaps he is just saying design in a general sense T_T
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On September 24 2011 05:55 Fiel wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 05:31 BronzeKnee wrote:
I could write a huge post, but I won't. Let me say one more thing, if they spent some time thinking about it, they would realize that Ultralisks aren't being used because they aren't good (or at least, not viable due to their tech tree positioning, poor pathing, and also being so easy to counter via Marauders and Immortals), not that they are good just not used. People play this game for a living, I'd say they would take the time to figure out what units are good and viable, and which aren't. Ultralisks are easier to get now, but they still aren't as good as Brood Lords late game, and the choice between the two is still easy. In fact, you'll note all the unused expensive massive units simply are too easy to counter to make them viable, which is why they are unused.
I need to stop now. I'm not sure I agree with this. Ultralisks do have their uses. In some cases, an Ultralisk is far better than a Brood Lord. - An Ultralisk can be used with a Nydus. A Brood Lord cannot. - An Ultralisk builds far faster than a Brood Lord and requires fewer resources in tech. - An Ultralisk allows your entire force to be much more mobile. You don't have to wait for your Brood Lords to attack. - An Ultralisk can be part of a doom drop. A Brood Lord cannot. - If you have the luxury of Brood Lord and Ultralisk tech, switching between both Ultralisks and Brood Lords gives you an enormous advantage on the battlefield and champions Zerg's strength of very rapid tech switching. - An Ultralisk cannot be stunned or mind controlled. A Brood Lord can. - An Ultralisk benefits from creep spread. A Brood Lord does not.
Vs Terran, Ultras can be very good since you'll usually have a ton of melee upgrades so ultras usually come out at least with 2/2 which cannot be said of Brood Lords (I've never see a Zerg with 2 spires upgrading).
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On September 24 2011 06:27 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 05:55 Fiel wrote:On September 24 2011 05:31 BronzeKnee wrote:
I could write a huge post, but I won't. Let me say one more thing, if they spent some time thinking about it, they would realize that Ultralisks aren't being used because they aren't good (or at least, not viable due to their tech tree positioning, poor pathing, and also being so easy to counter via Marauders and Immortals), not that they are good just not used. People play this game for a living, I'd say they would take the time to figure out what units are good and viable, and which aren't. Ultralisks are easier to get now, but they still aren't as good as Brood Lords late game, and the choice between the two is still easy. In fact, you'll note all the unused expensive massive units simply are too easy to counter to make them viable, which is why they are unused.
I need to stop now. I'm not sure I agree with this. Ultralisks do have their uses. In some cases, an Ultralisk is far better than a Brood Lord. - An Ultralisk can be used with a Nydus. A Brood Lord cannot. - An Ultralisk builds far faster than a Brood Lord and requires fewer resources in tech. - An Ultralisk allows your entire force to be much more mobile. You don't have to wait for your Brood Lords to attack. - An Ultralisk can be part of a doom drop. A Brood Lord cannot. - If you have the luxury of Brood Lord and Ultralisk tech, switching between both Ultralisks and Brood Lords gives you an enormous advantage on the battlefield and champions Zerg's strength of very rapid tech switching. - An Ultralisk cannot be stunned or mind controlled. A Brood Lord can. - An Ultralisk benefits from creep spread. A Brood Lord does not. Vs Terran, Ultras can be very good since you'll usually have a ton of melee upgrades so ultras usually come out at least with 2/2 which cannot be said of Brood Lords (I've never see a Zerg with 2 spires upgrading).
You do realize that broodlings use melee upgrades right? And that broodlords aren't affected by air upgrades (as far as I know)
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On September 24 2011 06:35 Leonite7 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 06:27 Condor Hero wrote:On September 24 2011 05:55 Fiel wrote:On September 24 2011 05:31 BronzeKnee wrote:
I could write a huge post, but I won't. Let me say one more thing, if they spent some time thinking about it, they would realize that Ultralisks aren't being used because they aren't good (or at least, not viable due to their tech tree positioning, poor pathing, and also being so easy to counter via Marauders and Immortals), not that they are good just not used. People play this game for a living, I'd say they would take the time to figure out what units are good and viable, and which aren't. Ultralisks are easier to get now, but they still aren't as good as Brood Lords late game, and the choice between the two is still easy. In fact, you'll note all the unused expensive massive units simply are too easy to counter to make them viable, which is why they are unused.
I need to stop now. I'm not sure I agree with this. Ultralisks do have their uses. In some cases, an Ultralisk is far better than a Brood Lord. - An Ultralisk can be used with a Nydus. A Brood Lord cannot. - An Ultralisk builds far faster than a Brood Lord and requires fewer resources in tech. - An Ultralisk allows your entire force to be much more mobile. You don't have to wait for your Brood Lords to attack. - An Ultralisk can be part of a doom drop. A Brood Lord cannot. - If you have the luxury of Brood Lord and Ultralisk tech, switching between both Ultralisks and Brood Lords gives you an enormous advantage on the battlefield and champions Zerg's strength of very rapid tech switching. - An Ultralisk cannot be stunned or mind controlled. A Brood Lord can. - An Ultralisk benefits from creep spread. A Brood Lord does not. Vs Terran, Ultras can be very good since you'll usually have a ton of melee upgrades so ultras usually come out at least with 2/2 which cannot be said of Brood Lords (I've never see a Zerg with 2 spires upgrading). You do realize that broodlings use melee upgrades right? And that broodlords aren't affected by air upgrades (as far as I know)
they are affected by both air (the actual missile) and land (broodlings).
I agree completely with Bronzeknee btw. Ultras are just a surprise unit really.
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On September 24 2011 06:35 Leonite7 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 06:27 Condor Hero wrote:On September 24 2011 05:55 Fiel wrote:On September 24 2011 05:31 BronzeKnee wrote:
I could write a huge post, but I won't. Let me say one more thing, if they spent some time thinking about it, they would realize that Ultralisks aren't being used because they aren't good (or at least, not viable due to their tech tree positioning, poor pathing, and also being so easy to counter via Marauders and Immortals), not that they are good just not used. People play this game for a living, I'd say they would take the time to figure out what units are good and viable, and which aren't. Ultralisks are easier to get now, but they still aren't as good as Brood Lords late game, and the choice between the two is still easy. In fact, you'll note all the unused expensive massive units simply are too easy to counter to make them viable, which is why they are unused.
I need to stop now. I'm not sure I agree with this. Ultralisks do have their uses. In some cases, an Ultralisk is far better than a Brood Lord. - An Ultralisk can be used with a Nydus. A Brood Lord cannot. - An Ultralisk builds far faster than a Brood Lord and requires fewer resources in tech. - An Ultralisk allows your entire force to be much more mobile. You don't have to wait for your Brood Lords to attack. - An Ultralisk can be part of a doom drop. A Brood Lord cannot. - If you have the luxury of Brood Lord and Ultralisk tech, switching between both Ultralisks and Brood Lords gives you an enormous advantage on the battlefield and champions Zerg's strength of very rapid tech switching. - An Ultralisk cannot be stunned or mind controlled. A Brood Lord can. - An Ultralisk benefits from creep spread. A Brood Lord does not. Vs Terran, Ultras can be very good since you'll usually have a ton of melee upgrades so ultras usually come out at least with 2/2 which cannot be said of Brood Lords (I've never see a Zerg with 2 spires upgrading). You do realize that broodlings use melee upgrades right? And that broodlords aren't affected by air upgrades (as far as I know)
The initial broodling attack is affected by air attack, rest is melee, still melee upgrades are much better to have for broodlords
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EPT
