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Come one people, "not forgive him for the rest of his career?" You act like he's commited a mortal sin or something...
He messed up. It's life, it happens. Hopefully he've learned something from all of this and he won't make the same mistake again.
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On September 20 2011 21:59 Merlimoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 21:47 Ryder. wrote:On September 20 2011 19:46 Apom wrote:On September 20 2011 13:53 Ryder. wrote:On September 20 2011 13:34 Crosswind wrote:On September 20 2011 13:07 Ryder. wrote:On September 20 2011 12:30 Crosswind wrote:
Dear Citizens of the Internet,
It may shock some of you to hear that sometimes 18-year olds are inconsistent. It may amaze you that teams run by people who are largely ex-gamers and self-taught amateur businessmen may not live up to your standards of professionalism. But rest assured - this is not the first time these things have happened, and it will not be the last. Some might go so far as to say that these things happen
all the time.
Hating 18-year-olds for changing their minds or fledgling organizations for lacking professionalism is like hating a dog for chasing cars. Probably justifiable, but ultimately silly.
Smile, and cheer for Stephano, who is a fantastic and promising player, or for Mill/CoL, who are excellent teams giving young players opportunities.
-Cross Dear uninformed citizen of the internet, It may shock you to hear this but at 18 years old (at least where I live) you have full capacity to contract and you are legally bound by the terms you enter into in contracts. ... I mean if you are 18 and you commit murder you are able to be punished as an adult because you ARE an adult. Doesn't matter if you were 17 four months ago, you gotta draw the line somewhere. Sure these acts are different... teams run by people who are largely ex-gamers and self-taught amateur businessmen may not live up to your standards of professionalism. No excuse champ, if you are gonna play with the big boys then you abide by their rules. Ignorance is no excuse. Just FYI, in case you missed it, you just compared an 18 year old going back on a contract, something that it is not even clear is illegal, to murdering somebody. How much of a douchebag are you going to feel like when it turns out that what he did wasn't even illegal, so not only are you flipping out over some amateur hour teams and a kid, but you're flipping out incorrectly? A little perspective here, people. -Cross (P.S. I have no opinion on accountability. But the amount of hate going on for parties involved is disproportionate. You all are making far too much out of a bunch of commonplace, unsurprising events.) As I said, I don't know shit about French law, if they have some dodgy loopholes to help people avoid their contractual obligations good for them. But in most countries breach of contract IS illegal and you are legally obliged to either fulfill the contract or pay damages. Of course the severity of the act is nothing close to murder, why the fuck would you try and act like it is? The point is both of these actions are illegal, and you can't just let one of them go unpunished because it is less severe. As I said I am going by what is law in Australia (as well as a lot of other places). If French law lets you get out of this then fine, but the point I was addressing is that you think it's ok for 18 year olds to renege on their promises because they feel like changing their mind, and that is wrong*. *excluding gay loopholes in French lawEdit: Just because it is a 'commonplace, unsurprising event' doesn't mean there shouldn't be consequences.
I want to say I'm worried that stephano hurt his image by making a silly choice, but I know people will forget in a week. I am kind of disappointed that stephano went back on his word
You can bet your ass future, prospective teams won't though... I'm sure it will factor into their decisions in the future. How aren't you banned for this yet ? :/ Also, people who are saying that you can evade contractual obligations under French law are starting to get annoying. As a general rule, you can't. Someone said you have seven days to change your mind about buying a house : that is true, but is an exception. This provision, known as droit de repentir (right to renege ?), only applies to a set of specific contracts, of which buying a house is one, but Stephano's contract certainly is not. A related clause, known as période d'essai (trial period ?), can be specified in employment cotnracts, but it is not mandatory nor implicit. The only way for Stephano to evade his contractual obligations with coL is if the contract is deemed illegal in the first place. While it certainly doesn't qualify as a proper employment contract under French law (for numerous reasons - coL even somewhat admitted to this), it is designed as an international contract, and it may very well be legal as such, especially under Texan law (which it defines as its ruling law). The last issue here is enforceability. If the contract is deemed legal by the Texan judge (which is very likely), and the French judge deems it an illegal employment contract (which is also very likely), then the contract will be null on French soil. What can be done if, and when, Stephano sets foot in the US, is another matter. Lol trust a french poster to insist I should be banned for that... It was clearly a tongue-in-cheek comment, you really think I should be banned about making a snide joke about French law? Particularly since most people in this thread (excluding the French of course) think that this kind of loophole IS stupid due to the way their respective legal system works... Your post is interesting though, there are a lot of posts ( especially from French posters) say that because of French law he IS able to squirm out of the contract due to this '7 day cool-off period' and there is nothing coL is able to do about it. So it is interesting that you (as a French poster) seem to insist that he isn't able to get out of it. Do you have any special knowledge of law that gives you this opinion? Also why would a French judge classify it as illegal employment contract? (Genuine questions, I am just interested as every other French poster has said that Stephano will be able to get out of this contract). Is it a cultural habit to put words in the mouth of others ? Before it get worse, with frenchies vs world none sens, please note that many of "french" posts were just saying that we have some laws that can IN SOME CASES be more protective of the people instead of the corporation, that have an all mighty power in the US culture. And I'm pretty sure that we are not the only ones... Anyway, as such, signing a contract in not the end of the story. Please note, that we (as everybody here) dont know sh** about Stephano's one. So please stop saying that we are sure that he can escape his mistakes. As every balanced human being would think, if everything was done correctly, by no means he can escape this, except the fact that is would be pretty stupid from coL to recrut somebody that does not want to be there. Personal trollish note: + Show Spoiler +
As the US culture is, I think they just want a some financial compensation, for having managed to get a click on a website from a guy far far away...
These are just a few posts from French posters insinuating he can get out of it... I wasn't trying to put words in anyone's mouth, just stating an observation that I saw. I am not sure how to mass quote whilst still keeping the names of who posted the quote so I'm sorry.
Show nested quote +I'm maybe wrong, but I rather think : It's probably legal for a french citizen, and illegal for an US citizen. It was coL's job to make sure that the contract respected french law.
Because of the mistake they made, coL probably can't sue Stephano. Show nested quote +As I've said before this is absolutely not true in France.
In France a contract saying one guy will pay another guy 10 Million dollars if he mows his lawn is completely illegal.
It is written in the french law that one cannot be expected to honor a contract that is clearly unreasonable. Show nested quote +French laws are much less rigid and more about common sense than US laws.
Anyone with common sense would agree that breaking a contract 24 hours after signing it doesn't harm any of the actors involved.
If I sign a contract in France where I hire a guy to mow my lawn in exchange for 1 Million €, and I don't pay up, the guy can try to sue me all he wants, but at most I'll just have to pay him 25€ + legal fees and most likely this won't even ever go to court.
In this case, the contract has obvious flaws. The fact that stephano might not have understood it entirely (language, young age, time of signature...), the fact that it has appearantly no withdrawal period (is that how you say it ?) etc...
The problem here is that this is apparantly a US contract by US laws and I guess we'll just have to wait and see what will happen.
Americans are all upset about this because in their culture, a contract is a 100% binding agreement. French people don't care as much of what stephano did because in french culture, there are usually a lot of ways to break a contract, and contracts who don't allow this are usually illegal (by frenchlaws).
I personally think that Millenium's move is not very classy and/or professional.
I don't mind much for Stephano's action because the amounts of money involved can lead to difficult situation for an 18 year old (think back how mature you guys were when you were 18).
I can't help but feel that coL got what they deserved for blatently going behind Mill's back (even though Mill probably were aware of the situation, coL didn't negociate with them directly) and pressuring an 18 year old player into signing a contract. I say "pressured" because obviously, someone who changes his mind 24 hours after signing a contract wasn't given the opportunity to think it through.
Most of the drama here could be avoided if teams would stop considering pro players as goods they can trade. Teams just seem to want to buy players at the top of their skill, regardless of whether or not the training environment they provide will allow the player to reach his potential. Then when the player's skill declines because of an unadapted envirionment, they just release him and buy a new one. If coL had Stephano's best interest at heart, they would have talked with him thouroughly before hand instead of trying at all cost to make him sign a contract. Stephano most likely didn't even know what he was getting into.
On the other hand, Mill is offering stephano a stable environment in his own country, a CDI which means he is guaranteed financial stability for a long time (protected by french laws) and if I understood correctly an opportunity to go to korea eventually. One can very much understand why stephano would want to stay in Mill.
All in all, I think I'd have to go with "everyone is guilty" on this issue. Show nested quote +and yes in France you can break a contract soon after signing it but only if you didn't start to work... and you would really enjoy this part of french law you buy a House and learn 3 days later that they're building a fucking huge airport right Next to it ( true story ^^) A comparaison betwen this situation and huk situation is clearly a non sense Show nested quote +So, at 4 a.m with probably a hudge contract with nicely announcement, he said "yes" but , he changes his mind again and wasn't surprised with his personnality. He just dont really "care".
Anyway for the "law" part, there are no discussion : Millenium just cant lose and legaly , they are fine. Show nested quote +Too much desinformation in this thread , CoL will win communication battle by language advantage.
But hopefully , legaly , their contract is a fail and even if he works, you can retract in France, whatever you think it's a good or bad law, this is the law Show nested quote +Actually , this is the first pro gamer contract in France, before, the team in wc3 for example never succeded to made a legal contract.
MoMan, who was the first french sc2 "pro" was just salary on lan house...
Millenium tooks few month to make this contract legally with french lawyer, so I dont think an Amercian contract made in less then 3 weeks can work...
And as I said, anyway , you can retract in France. For example, you can sign for a House for millions dollars, then break the contract 6 days later
Also just because you use spoilers doesn't mean your troll comment is suddenly no longer a troll comment... People in US enforce contract law because if contracts were unenforceable they would be worthless. Why make a contract if you can get out of it? The whole idea of a contract is to be legally binding, and it is a system put in place to promote consistency and certainty, in that what you sign up for is what you get.
Edit: Also I don't know what the end consequence is going to be, but I highly doubt (assuming coL's case is successful) he is gonna be forced to work with coL... at least in AUSTRALIA the courts do not order an action for specific performance if the services in question are based on goodwill (such as playing in a team). I assume that [M] would just have to pay coL damages..? Someone who is knowledgeable on the subject could probably be of more help.
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That Millenium statement doesn't really tell us anything. :/
Looks like they don't value clarification and transparency, what a pity.
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On September 20 2011 22:27 Bobster wrote:
That Millenium statement doesn't really tell us anything. :/
Looks like they don't value clarification and transparency, what a pity.
Agreed. 2 days to produce that weak ass 3 paragraphs? It says nothing, I now see no reason to disbelieve the entirety of coL's statement.
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Sounds like Mill isn't too confident that the French contract "exception" will hold up in a court of law and is now backtracking to cover their rears... If they were sure of their position I don't see why they would engage in negotiations with col.
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As for the people who may have been disappointed, shocked or offended, we would like you to understand that Internet gossip is not always ground truth, and that things are often more complicated than they might seem to be.
"However, we won't adress or clarify these complications in any way, shape or form."
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why should they be transparent? it s a problem that concerns Millenium and Complexity, not something where everybody has a saying in it . They will figure it out one way or another. I think the whole matter shouldn`t have gone public in the first place.
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On September 20 2011 22:28 rO_Or wrote:Sounds like Mill isn't too confident that the French contract "exception" will hold up in a court of law and is now backtracking to cover their rears... If they were sure of their position I don't see why they would engage in negotiations with col.
Maybe because it's the mature thing to do instead of saying "f** you coL, you got pwned !" ?
They did and they still do recognize some validity to the contract between coL and Stephano. From their pov, they didn't do anything wrong either, having a previous agreement with the player for an employment contract. So they want to discuss with coL to fix the mess in the interest of all parties engaged. What is wrong with that ? 
As for the transparency, as said before, it's a matter between coL and M, and is not meant to be public anyway. A good deal of football transactions are kept secret, nothing wrong with that, even if it doesn't fulfill people's will of drama.
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On September 20 2011 22:30 DarkSaga wrote:
why should they be transparent? it s a problem that concerns Millenium and Complexity, not something where everybody has a saying in it . They will figure it out one way or another. I think the whole matter shouldn`t have gone public in the first place.
This is problematic when you're in a business that's trying promote itself and convey a certain image to the public.
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On September 20 2011 22:29 Bobster wrote:Show nested quote +As for the people who may have been disappointed, shocked or offended, we would like you to understand that Internet gossip is not always ground truth, and that things are often more complicated than they might seem to be. "However, we won't adress or clarify these complications in any way, shape or form."
That is exactly it Bobster hit the nail on the head.
Mil just says the situation is complicated....
Well thank you for telling us nothing.
If there is mis-information on the internet best way to clear that up is by telling us which facts are correct and which are wrong. Col has done a pretty good job of clarifying their position ( timeframe of negotiation, contract was signed, addressing us vs french law etc.)
I had hopped Mil would have followed their lead.
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On September 20 2011 22:28 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 22:27 Bobster wrote:
That Millenium statement doesn't really tell us anything. :/
Looks like they don't value clarification and transparency, what a pity. Agreed. 2 days to produce that weak ass 3 paragraphs? It says nothing, I now see no reason to disbelieve the entirety of coL's statement.
Posting on Team Liquid about sues is so more professional -_-
On September 20 2011 22:30 DarkSaga wrote:
why should they be transparent? it s a problem that concerns Millenium and Complexity, not something where everybody has a saying in it . They will figure it out one way or another. I think the whole matter shouldn`t have gone public in the first place.
I can't agree more.
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On September 20 2011 22:26 Ryder. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 21:59 Merlimoo wrote:On September 20 2011 21:47 Ryder. wrote:On September 20 2011 19:46 Apom wrote:On September 20 2011 13:53 Ryder. wrote:On September 20 2011 13:34 Crosswind wrote:On September 20 2011 13:07 Ryder. wrote:On September 20 2011 12:30 Crosswind wrote:
Dear Citizens of the Internet,
It may shock some of you to hear that sometimes 18-year olds are inconsistent. It may amaze you that teams run by people who are largely ex-gamers and self-taught amateur businessmen may not live up to your standards of professionalism. But rest assured - this is not the first time these things have happened, and it will not be the last. Some might go so far as to say that these things happen
all the time.
Hating 18-year-olds for changing their minds or fledgling organizations for lacking professionalism is like hating a dog for chasing cars. Probably justifiable, but ultimately silly.
Smile, and cheer for Stephano, who is a fantastic and promising player, or for Mill/CoL, who are excellent teams giving young players opportunities.
-Cross Dear uninformed citizen of the internet, It may shock you to hear this but at 18 years old (at least where I live) you have full capacity to contract and you are legally bound by the terms you enter into in contracts. ... I mean if you are 18 and you commit murder you are able to be punished as an adult because you ARE an adult. Doesn't matter if you were 17 four months ago, you gotta draw the line somewhere. Sure these acts are different... teams run by people who are largely ex-gamers and self-taught amateur businessmen may not live up to your standards of professionalism. No excuse champ, if you are gonna play with the big boys then you abide by their rules. Ignorance is no excuse. Just FYI, in case you missed it, you just compared an 18 year old going back on a contract, something that it is not even clear is illegal, to murdering somebody. How much of a douchebag are you going to feel like when it turns out that what he did wasn't even illegal, so not only are you flipping out over some amateur hour teams and a kid, but you're flipping out incorrectly? A little perspective here, people. -Cross (P.S. I have no opinion on accountability. But the amount of hate going on for parties involved is disproportionate. You all are making far too much out of a bunch of commonplace, unsurprising events.) As I said, I don't know shit about French law, if they have some dodgy loopholes to help people avoid their contractual obligations good for them. But in most countries breach of contract IS illegal and you are legally obliged to either fulfill the contract or pay damages. Of course the severity of the act is nothing close to murder, why the fuck would you try and act like it is? The point is both of these actions are illegal, and you can't just let one of them go unpunished because it is less severe. As I said I am going by what is law in Australia (as well as a lot of other places). If French law lets you get out of this then fine, but the point I was addressing is that you think it's ok for 18 year olds to renege on their promises because they feel like changing their mind, and that is wrong*. *excluding gay loopholes in French lawEdit: Just because it is a 'commonplace, unsurprising event' doesn't mean there shouldn't be consequences.
I want to say I'm worried that stephano hurt his image by making a silly choice, but I know people will forget in a week. I am kind of disappointed that stephano went back on his word
You can bet your ass future, prospective teams won't though... I'm sure it will factor into their decisions in the future. How aren't you banned for this yet ? :/ Also, people who are saying that you can evade contractual obligations under French law are starting to get annoying. As a general rule, you can't. Someone said you have seven days to change your mind about buying a house : that is true, but is an exception. This provision, known as droit de repentir (right to renege ?), only applies to a set of specific contracts, of which buying a house is one, but Stephano's contract certainly is not. A related clause, known as période d'essai (trial period ?), can be specified in employment cotnracts, but it is not mandatory nor implicit. The only way for Stephano to evade his contractual obligations with coL is if the contract is deemed illegal in the first place. While it certainly doesn't qualify as a proper employment contract under French law (for numerous reasons - coL even somewhat admitted to this), it is designed as an international contract, and it may very well be legal as such, especially under Texan law (which it defines as its ruling law). The last issue here is enforceability. If the contract is deemed legal by the Texan judge (which is very likely), and the French judge deems it an illegal employment contract (which is also very likely), then the contract will be null on French soil. What can be done if, and when, Stephano sets foot in the US, is another matter. Lol trust a french poster to insist I should be banned for that... It was clearly a tongue-in-cheek comment, you really think I should be banned about making a snide joke about French law? Particularly since most people in this thread (excluding the French of course) think that this kind of loophole IS stupid due to the way their respective legal system works... Your post is interesting though, there are a lot of posts ( especially from French posters) say that because of French law he IS able to squirm out of the contract due to this '7 day cool-off period' and there is nothing coL is able to do about it. So it is interesting that you (as a French poster) seem to insist that he isn't able to get out of it. Do you have any special knowledge of law that gives you this opinion? Also why would a French judge classify it as illegal employment contract? (Genuine questions, I am just interested as every other French poster has said that Stephano will be able to get out of this contract). Is it a cultural habit to put words in the mouth of others ? Before it get worse, with frenchies vs world none sens, please note that many of "french" posts were just saying that we have some laws that can IN SOME CASES be more protective of the people instead of the corporation, that have an all mighty power in the US culture. And I'm pretty sure that we are not the only ones... Anyway, as such, signing a contract in not the end of the story. Please note, that we (as everybody here) dont know sh** about Stephano's one. So please stop saying that we are sure that he can escape his mistakes. As every balanced human being would think, if everything was done correctly, by no means he can escape this, except the fact that is would be pretty stupid from coL to recrut somebody that does not want to be there. Personal trollish note: + Show Spoiler +
As the US culture is, I think they just want a some financial compensation, for having managed to get a click on a website from a guy far far away...
These are just a few posts from French posters insinuating he can get out of it... I wasn't trying to put words in anyone's mouth, just stating an observation that I saw. I am not sure how to mass quote whilst still keeping the names of who posted the quote so I'm sorry. Show nested quote +I'm maybe wrong, but I rather think : It's probably legal for a french citizen, and illegal for an US citizen. It was coL's job to make sure that the contract respected french law.
Because of the mistake they made, coL probably can't sue Stephano. As I've said before this is absolutely not true in France.
In France a contract saying one guy will pay another guy 10 Million dollars if he mows his lawn is completely illegal.
It is written in the french law that one cannot be expected to honor a contract that is clearly unreasonable. French laws are much less rigid and more about common sense than US laws.
Anyone with common sense would agree that breaking a contract 24 hours after signing it doesn't harm any of the actors involved.
If I sign a contract in France where I hire a guy to mow my lawn in exchange for 1 Million €, and I don't pay up, the guy can try to sue me all he wants, but at most I'll just have to pay him 25€ + legal fees and most likely this won't even ever go to court.
In this case, the contract has obvious flaws. The fact that stephano might not have understood it entirely (language, young age, time of signature...), the fact that it has appearantly no withdrawal period (is that how you say it ?) etc...
The problem here is that this is apparantly a US contract by US laws and I guess we'll just have to wait and see what will happen.
Americans are all upset about this because in their culture, a contract is a 100% binding agreement. French people don't care as much of what stephano did because in french culture, there are usually a lot of ways to break a contract, and contracts who don't allow this are usually illegal (by frenchlaws).
I personally think that Millenium's move is not very classy and/or professional.
I don't mind much for Stephano's action because the amounts of money involved can lead to difficult situation for an 18 year old (think back how mature you guys were when you were 18).
I can't help but feel that coL got what they deserved for blatently going behind Mill's back (even though Mill probably were aware of the situation, coL didn't negociate with them directly) and pressuring an 18 year old player into signing a contract. I say "pressured" because obviously, someone who changes his mind 24 hours after signing a contract wasn't given the opportunity to think it through.
Most of the drama here could be avoided if teams would stop considering pro players as goods they can trade. Teams just seem to want to buy players at the top of their skill, regardless of whether or not the training environment they provide will allow the player to reach his potential. Then when the player's skill declines because of an unadapted envirionment, they just release him and buy a new one. If coL had Stephano's best interest at heart, they would have talked with him thouroughly before hand instead of trying at all cost to make him sign a contract. Stephano most likely didn't even know what he was getting into.
On the other hand, Mill is offering stephano a stable environment in his own country, a CDI which means he is guaranteed financial stability for a long time (protected by french laws) and if I understood correctly an opportunity to go to korea eventually. One can very much understand why stephano would want to stay in Mill.
All in all, I think I'd have to go with "everyone is guilty" on this issue. and yes in France you can break a contract soon after signing it but only if you didn't start to work... and you would really enjoy this part of french law you buy a House and learn 3 days later that they're building a fucking huge airport right Next to it ( true story ^^) A comparaison betwen this situation and huk situation is clearly a non sense So, at 4 a.m with probably a hudge contract with nicely announcement, he said "yes" but , he changes his mind again and wasn't surprised with his personnality. He just dont really "care".
Anyway for the "law" part, there are no discussion : Millenium just cant lose and legaly , they are fine. Too much desinformation in this thread , CoL will win communication battle by language advantage.
But hopefully , legaly , their contract is a fail and even if he works, you can retract in France, whatever you think it's a good or bad law, this is the law Actually , this is the first pro gamer contract in France, before, the team in wc3 for example never succeded to made a legal contract.
MoMan, who was the first french sc2 "pro" was just salary on lan house...
Millenium tooks few month to make this contract legally with french lawyer, so I dont think an Amercian contract made in less then 3 weeks can work...
And as I said, anyway , you can retract in France. For example, you can sign for a House for millions dollars, then break the contract 6 days later Also just because you use spoilers doesn't mean your troll comment is suddenly no longer a troll comment... People in US enforce contract law because if contracts were unenforceable they would be worthless. Why make a contract if you can get out of it? The whole idea of a contract is to be legally binding, and it is a system put in place to promote consistency and certainty, in that what you sign up for is what you get. Edit: Also I don't know what the end consequence is going to be, but I highly doubt (assuming coL's case is successful) he is gonna be forced to work with coL... at least in AUSTRALIA the courts do not order an action for specific performance if the services in question are based on goodwill (such as playing in a team). I assume that [M] would just have to pay coL damages..? Someone who is knowledgeable on the subject could probably be of more help.
You can't assume other cultures will value the same things you do. In France, people are more likely to break their word, and people view it simply as a failing of humans and are not punished for it. Their laws reflect this. Col isn't in the wrong here, and neither is Mill. It's against the law in the US to break contract, but Stephano isn't in the US, he's in France. Stop applying US laws to him.
On September 20 2011 22:27 Bobster wrote:
That Millenium statement doesn't really tell us anything. :/
Looks like they don't value clarification and transparency, what a pity.
Kinda thought the same thing while reading this.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On September 20 2011 22:28 rO_Or wrote:Sounds like Mill isn't too confident that the French contract "exception" will hold up in a court of law and is now backtracking to cover their rears... If they were sure of their position I don't see why they would engage in negotiations with col.
If it can be solved outside of the courts why wouldn't they want to pursue that option? Any kind of law process only takes time and effort away from what they want to be doing and won't benefit anyone, right or wrong. Also what that negotiation with Col actually mean is up for dispute. Maybe they just intend to say "Sorry, this could have been handled better. Lets be friends," and leave it at that.
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On September 20 2011 22:28 rO_Or wrote:Sounds like Mill isn't too confident that the French contract "exception" will hold up in a court of law and is now backtracking to cover their rears... If they were sure of their position I don't see why they would engage in negotiations with col.
Lol? Seriously? If any I see a huge step in the right direction from M. There was absolutly 0 legal treat for M, and Col knows that. If they engage negociations it's because their player fucked up and it's a sign of good faith, not of some imaginary fear of Col's "legal team"....
"If anything, this unfortunate series of event has pointed out the impending necessity to ease worldwide communication between structures, and players, to avoid this kind of situation from ever occurring again." -> thats why they reach out to Col... because they actually believe this.
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On September 20 2011 21:59 Merlimoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 21:47 Ryder. wrote:On September 20 2011 19:46 Apom wrote:On September 20 2011 13:53 Ryder. wrote:On September 20 2011 13:34 Crosswind wrote:On September 20 2011 13:07 Ryder. wrote:On September 20 2011 12:30 Crosswind wrote:
Dear Citizens of the Internet,
It may shock some of you to hear that sometimes 18-year olds are inconsistent. It may amaze you that teams run by people who are largely ex-gamers and self-taught amateur businessmen may not live up to your standards of professionalism. But rest assured - this is not the first time these things have happened, and it will not be the last. Some might go so far as to say that these things happen
all the time.
Hating 18-year-olds for changing their minds or fledgling organizations for lacking professionalism is like hating a dog for chasing cars. Probably justifiable, but ultimately silly.
Smile, and cheer for Stephano, who is a fantastic and promising player, or for Mill/CoL, who are excellent teams giving young players opportunities.
-Cross Dear uninformed citizen of the internet, It may shock you to hear this but at 18 years old (at least where I live) you have full capacity to contract and you are legally bound by the terms you enter into in contracts. ... I mean if you are 18 and you commit murder you are able to be punished as an adult because you ARE an adult. Doesn't matter if you were 17 four months ago, you gotta draw the line somewhere. Sure these acts are different... teams run by people who are largely ex-gamers and self-taught amateur businessmen may not live up to your standards of professionalism. No excuse champ, if you are gonna play with the big boys then you abide by their rules. Ignorance is no excuse. Just FYI, in case you missed it, you just compared an 18 year old going back on a contract, something that it is not even clear is illegal, to murdering somebody. How much of a douchebag are you going to feel like when it turns out that what he did wasn't even illegal, so not only are you flipping out over some amateur hour teams and a kid, but you're flipping out incorrectly? A little perspective here, people. -Cross (P.S. I have no opinion on accountability. But the amount of hate going on for parties involved is disproportionate. You all are making far too much out of a bunch of commonplace, unsurprising events.) As I said, I don't know shit about French law, if they have some dodgy loopholes to help people avoid their contractual obligations good for them. But in most countries breach of contract IS illegal and you are legally obliged to either fulfill the contract or pay damages. Of course the severity of the act is nothing close to murder, why the fuck would you try and act like it is? The point is both of these actions are illegal, and you can't just let one of them go unpunished because it is less severe. As I said I am going by what is law in Australia (as well as a lot of other places). If French law lets you get out of this then fine, but the point I was addressing is that you think it's ok for 18 year olds to renege on their promises because they feel like changing their mind, and that is wrong*. *excluding gay loopholes in French lawEdit: Just because it is a 'commonplace, unsurprising event' doesn't mean there shouldn't be consequences.
I want to say I'm worried that stephano hurt his image by making a silly choice, but I know people will forget in a week. I am kind of disappointed that stephano went back on his word
You can bet your ass future, prospective teams won't though... I'm sure it will factor into their decisions in the future. How aren't you banned for this yet ? :/ Also, people who are saying that you can evade contractual obligations under French law are starting to get annoying. As a general rule, you can't. Someone said you have seven days to change your mind about buying a house : that is true, but is an exception. This provision, known as droit de repentir (right to renege ?), only applies to a set of specific contracts, of which buying a house is one, but Stephano's contract certainly is not. A related clause, known as période d'essai (trial period ?), can be specified in employment cotnracts, but it is not mandatory nor implicit. The only way for Stephano to evade his contractual obligations with coL is if the contract is deemed illegal in the first place. While it certainly doesn't qualify as a proper employment contract under French law (for numerous reasons - coL even somewhat admitted to this), it is designed as an international contract, and it may very well be legal as such, especially under Texan law (which it defines as its ruling law). The last issue here is enforceability. If the contract is deemed legal by the Texan judge (which is very likely), and the French judge deems it an illegal employment contract (which is also very likely), then the contract will be null on French soil. What can be done if, and when, Stephano sets foot in the US, is another matter. Lol trust a french poster to insist I should be banned for that... It was clearly a tongue-in-cheek comment, you really think I should be banned about making a snide joke about French law? Particularly since most people in this thread (excluding the French of course) think that this kind of loophole IS stupid due to the way their respective legal system works... Your post is interesting though, there are a lot of posts ( especially from French posters) say that because of French law he IS able to squirm out of the contract due to this '7 day cool-off period' and there is nothing coL is able to do about it. So it is interesting that you (as a French poster) seem to insist that he isn't able to get out of it. Do you have any special knowledge of law that gives you this opinion? Also why would a French judge classify it as illegal employment contract? (Genuine questions, I am just interested as every other French poster has said that Stephano will be able to get out of this contract). Is it a cultural habit to put words in the mouth of others ? Before it get worse, with frenchies vs world none sens, please note that many of "french" posts were just saying that we have some laws that can IN SOME CASES be more protective of the people instead of the corporation, that have an all mighty power in the US culture. And I'm pretty sure that we are not the only ones... Anyway, as such, signing a contract in not the end of the story. Please note, that we (as everybody here) dont know sh** about Stephano's one. So please stop saying that we are sure that he can escape his mistakes. As every balanced human being would think, if everything was done correctly, by no means he can escape this, except the fact that is would be pretty stupid from coL to recrut somebody that does not want to be there. Personal trollish note: + Show Spoiler +
As the US culture is, I think they just want a some financial compensation, for having managed to get a click on a website from a guy far far away...
This has nothing to do with the US and corporations. This has to do with integrity. In the US (not too sure about France) when you sign a contract it is assumed that you did your research beforehand and knew what you were signing to. Once you have given your signature it is confirmation that you have READ, UNDERSTAND, and AGREE to the terms you have signed. This is the way business works, either in a large multimillion dollar corporation or in the smallest independently run store.
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i don't care for drama. i hope they all work it out where everyone's happy and we get to see some gg's
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Thats not a statement. They called Col's official website, reddit, and TL news posts gossip. They provided no transparency into what happened. They essentially said fuck you to the TL and its readers, yourself included. If they actually had something positive to say, they would have said it.
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On September 20 2011 22:33 Himali wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 22:28 rO_Or wrote:Sounds like Mill isn't too confident that the French contract "exception" will hold up in a court of law and is now backtracking to cover their rears... If they were sure of their position I don't see why they would engage in negotiations with col. Lol? Seriously? If any I see a huge step in the right direction from M. There was absolutly 0 legal treat for M, and Col knows that. If they engage negociations it's because their player fucked up and it's a sign of good faith, not of some imaginary fear of Col's "legal team".... "If anything, this unfortunate series of event has pointed out the impending necessity to ease worldwide communication between structures, and players, to avoid this kind of situation from ever occurring again." -> thats why they reach out to Col... because they actually believe this.
Unfortunately, Stephano is well within his rights under French contract law here (French contract law always applies to contracts between French citizens and foreign companies, and a person can get out of any contract with no penalties within 30 days of signing it).
there shouldnt be a problem for him as long as he stays home because french law is funny, it could get interresting once stephano wants to enter the US tho....
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On September 20 2011 22:35 Boardin wrote:Thats not a statement. They called Col's official website, reddit, and TL news posts gossip. They provided no transparency into what happened. They essentially said fuck you to the TL and its readers, yourself included. If they actually had something positive to say, they would have said it.
mate` they are gossips, since everybody is just sharing they re opinions without having any real information.
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On September 20 2011 22:35 Boardin wrote:Thats not a statement. They called Col's official website, reddit, and TL news posts gossip. They provided no transparency into what happened. They essentially said fuck you to the TL and its readers, yourself included. If they actually had something positive to say, they would have said it.
You Sir are either a troll or... I don't want to think about the alternatives. Not recognizing the good faith displayed in this statement is proof of obvious bias...
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EPT
