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On September 20 2011 22:55 Vul wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 22:39 Merlimoo wrote:On September 20 2011 22:35 rO_Or wrote:On September 20 2011 21:59 Merlimoo wrote:On September 20 2011 21:47 Ryder. wrote:On September 20 2011 19:46 Apom wrote:On September 20 2011 13:53 Ryder. wrote:On September 20 2011 13:34 Crosswind wrote:On September 20 2011 13:07 Ryder. wrote:On September 20 2011 12:30 Crosswind wrote:
Dear Citizens of the Internet,
It may shock some of you to hear that sometimes 18-year olds are inconsistent. It may amaze you that teams run by people who are largely ex-gamers and self-taught amateur businessmen may not live up to your standards of professionalism. But rest assured - this is not the first time these things have happened, and it will not be the last. Some might go so far as to say that these things happen
all the time.
Hating 18-year-olds for changing their minds or fledgling organizations for lacking professionalism is like hating a dog for chasing cars. Probably justifiable, but ultimately silly.
Smile, and cheer for Stephano, who is a fantastic and promising player, or for Mill/CoL, who are excellent teams giving young players opportunities.
-Cross Dear uninformed citizen of the internet, It may shock you to hear this but at 18 years old (at least where I live) you have full capacity to contract and you are legally bound by the terms you enter into in contracts. ... I mean if you are 18 and you commit murder you are able to be punished as an adult because you ARE an adult. Doesn't matter if you were 17 four months ago, you gotta draw the line somewhere. Sure these acts are different... teams run by people who are largely ex-gamers and self-taught amateur businessmen may not live up to your standards of professionalism. No excuse champ, if you are gonna play with the big boys then you abide by their rules. Ignorance is no excuse. Just FYI, in case you missed it, you just compared an 18 year old going back on a contract, something that it is not even clear is illegal, to murdering somebody. How much of a douchebag are you going to feel like when it turns out that what he did wasn't even illegal, so not only are you flipping out over some amateur hour teams and a kid, but you're flipping out incorrectly? A little perspective here, people. -Cross (P.S. I have no opinion on accountability. But the amount of hate going on for parties involved is disproportionate. You all are making far too much out of a bunch of commonplace, unsurprising events.) As I said, I don't know shit about French law, if they have some dodgy loopholes to help people avoid their contractual obligations good for them. But in most countries breach of contract IS illegal and you are legally obliged to either fulfill the contract or pay damages. Of course the severity of the act is nothing close to murder, why the fuck would you try and act like it is? The point is both of these actions are illegal, and you can't just let one of them go unpunished because it is less severe. As I said I am going by what is law in Australia (as well as a lot of other places). If French law lets you get out of this then fine, but the point I was addressing is that you think it's ok for 18 year olds to renege on their promises because they feel like changing their mind, and that is wrong*. *excluding gay loopholes in French lawEdit: Just because it is a 'commonplace, unsurprising event' doesn't mean there shouldn't be consequences.
I want to say I'm worried that stephano hurt his image by making a silly choice, but I know people will forget in a week. I am kind of disappointed that stephano went back on his word
You can bet your ass future, prospective teams won't though... I'm sure it will factor into their decisions in the future. How aren't you banned for this yet ? :/ Also, people who are saying that you can evade contractual obligations under French law are starting to get annoying. As a general rule, you can't. Someone said you have seven days to change your mind about buying a house : that is true, but is an exception. This provision, known as droit de repentir (right to renege ?), only applies to a set of specific contracts, of which buying a house is one, but Stephano's contract certainly is not. A related clause, known as période d'essai (trial period ?), can be specified in employment cotnracts, but it is not mandatory nor implicit. The only way for Stephano to evade his contractual obligations with coL is if the contract is deemed illegal in the first place. While it certainly doesn't qualify as a proper employment contract under French law (for numerous reasons - coL even somewhat admitted to this), it is designed as an international contract, and it may very well be legal as such, especially under Texan law (which it defines as its ruling law). The last issue here is enforceability. If the contract is deemed legal by the Texan judge (which is very likely), and the French judge deems it an illegal employment contract (which is also very likely), then the contract will be null on French soil. What can be done if, and when, Stephano sets foot in the US, is another matter. Lol trust a french poster to insist I should be banned for that... It was clearly a tongue-in-cheek comment, you really think I should be banned about making a snide joke about French law? Particularly since most people in this thread (excluding the French of course) think that this kind of loophole IS stupid due to the way their respective legal system works... Your post is interesting though, there are a lot of posts ( especially from French posters) say that because of French law he IS able to squirm out of the contract due to this '7 day cool-off period' and there is nothing coL is able to do about it. So it is interesting that you (as a French poster) seem to insist that he isn't able to get out of it. Do you have any special knowledge of law that gives you this opinion? Also why would a French judge classify it as illegal employment contract? (Genuine questions, I am just interested as every other French poster has said that Stephano will be able to get out of this contract). Is it a cultural habit to put words in the mouth of others ? Before it get worse, with frenchies vs world none sens, please note that many of "french" posts were just saying that we have some laws that can IN SOME CASES be more protective of the people instead of the corporation, that have an all mighty power in the US culture. And I'm pretty sure that we are not the only ones... Anyway, as such, signing a contract in not the end of the story. Please note, that we (as everybody here) dont know sh** about Stephano's one. So please stop saying that we are sure that he can escape his mistakes. As every balanced human being would think, if everything was done correctly, by no means he can escape this, except the fact that is would be pretty stupid from coL to recrut somebody that does not want to be there. Personal trollish note: + Show Spoiler +
As the US culture is, I think they just want a some financial compensation, for having managed to get a click on a website from a guy far far away...
This has nothing to do with the US and corporations. This has to do with integrity. In the US (not too sure about France) when you sign a contract it is assumed that you did your research beforehand and knew what you were signing to. Once you have given your signature it is confirmation that you have READ, UNDERSTAND, and AGREE to the terms you have signed. This is the way business works, either in a large multimillion dollar corporation or in the smallest independently run store. If you have read the thread until then, please, try to envision the fact that the whole world does not necessarily work like in the US. And by all mean, thanks god. Are you really trying to say that in France, when you sign a contract, it's actually assumed that you didn't read, understand and agree to the terms? In that case, what do you think it means to sign a contract? I'm pretty sure in France it would mean the same thing, unless France is actually some kind of alternate universe. Also not sure why you would 'thanks god' that contracts are apparently meaningless in France. Imagine you signed a housing contract, but right after you move in you get kicked out for no reason. "This isn't the U.S., buddy! Contracts don't mean the same thing here!" But I'm pretty sure things don't work that way in France, either. Would be hilarious if they did.
It's astonishing to see the amount of US citizen that really can't be open minded and listen/understand to what we say to them. Just because it's not like that at home, Durp! Durp! Maybe it's because I'm not native and that I'm english is really bad... Too bad then.
I will stop this conversation, before I get banned for being too mean in a try to educate people.
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On September 20 2011 22:53 CheeC[h] wrote:
What is the difference between a frenchwoman and a basketball team?
I don't know the answer but this silly riddle after 15x pages of clueless comments from anyone made me laugh idiotically at my workplace.
My boss noticed. So -1 fan America, sorry.
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On September 20 2011 22:57 SolidMustard wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 22:55 Vul wrote:On September 20 2011 22:39 Merlimoo wrote:On September 20 2011 22:35 rO_Or wrote:On September 20 2011 21:59 Merlimoo wrote:On September 20 2011 21:47 Ryder. wrote:On September 20 2011 19:46 Apom wrote:On September 20 2011 13:53 Ryder. wrote:On September 20 2011 13:34 Crosswind wrote:On September 20 2011 13:07 Ryder. wrote:
[quote]
Dear uninformed citizen of the internet,
It may shock you to hear this but at 18 years old (at least where I live) you have full capacity to contract and you are legally bound by the terms you enter into in contracts.
...
I mean if you are 18 and you commit murder you are able to be punished as an adult because you ARE an adult. Doesn't matter if you were 17 four months ago, you gotta draw the line somewhere. Sure these acts are different...
[quote]
No excuse champ, if you are gonna play with the big boys then you abide by their rules. Ignorance is no excuse. Just FYI, in case you missed it, you just compared an 18 year old going back on a contract, something that it is not even clear is illegal, to murdering somebody. How much of a douchebag are you going to feel like when it turns out that what he did wasn't even illegal, so not only are you flipping out over some amateur hour teams and a kid, but you're flipping out incorrectly? A little perspective here, people. -Cross (P.S. I have no opinion on accountability. But the amount of hate going on for parties involved is disproportionate. You all are making far too much out of a bunch of commonplace, unsurprising events.) As I said, I don't know shit about French law, if they have some dodgy loopholes to help people avoid their contractual obligations good for them. But in most countries breach of contract IS illegal and you are legally obliged to either fulfill the contract or pay damages. Of course the severity of the act is nothing close to murder, why the fuck would you try and act like it is? The point is both of these actions are illegal, and you can't just let one of them go unpunished because it is less severe. As I said I am going by what is law in Australia (as well as a lot of other places). If French law lets you get out of this then fine, but the point I was addressing is that you think it's ok for 18 year olds to renege on their promises because they feel like changing their mind, and that is wrong*. *excluding gay loopholes in French lawEdit: Just because it is a 'commonplace, unsurprising event' doesn't mean there shouldn't be consequences.
I want to say I'm worried that stephano hurt his image by making a silly choice, but I know people will forget in a week. I am kind of disappointed that stephano went back on his word
You can bet your ass future, prospective teams won't though... I'm sure it will factor into their decisions in the future. How aren't you banned for this yet ? :/ Also, people who are saying that you can evade contractual obligations under French law are starting to get annoying. As a general rule, you can't. Someone said you have seven days to change your mind about buying a house : that is true, but is an exception. This provision, known as droit de repentir (right to renege ?), only applies to a set of specific contracts, of which buying a house is one, but Stephano's contract certainly is not. A related clause, known as période d'essai (trial period ?), can be specified in employment cotnracts, but it is not mandatory nor implicit. The only way for Stephano to evade his contractual obligations with coL is if the contract is deemed illegal in the first place. While it certainly doesn't qualify as a proper employment contract under French law (for numerous reasons - coL even somewhat admitted to this), it is designed as an international contract, and it may very well be legal as such, especially under Texan law (which it defines as its ruling law). The last issue here is enforceability. If the contract is deemed legal by the Texan judge (which is very likely), and the French judge deems it an illegal employment contract (which is also very likely), then the contract will be null on French soil. What can be done if, and when, Stephano sets foot in the US, is another matter. Lol trust a french poster to insist I should be banned for that... It was clearly a tongue-in-cheek comment, you really think I should be banned about making a snide joke about French law? Particularly since most people in this thread (excluding the French of course) think that this kind of loophole IS stupid due to the way their respective legal system works... Your post is interesting though, there are a lot of posts ( especially from French posters) say that because of French law he IS able to squirm out of the contract due to this '7 day cool-off period' and there is nothing coL is able to do about it. So it is interesting that you (as a French poster) seem to insist that he isn't able to get out of it. Do you have any special knowledge of law that gives you this opinion? Also why would a French judge classify it as illegal employment contract? (Genuine questions, I am just interested as every other French poster has said that Stephano will be able to get out of this contract). Is it a cultural habit to put words in the mouth of others ? Before it get worse, with frenchies vs world none sens, please note that many of "french" posts were just saying that we have some laws that can IN SOME CASES be more protective of the people instead of the corporation, that have an all mighty power in the US culture. And I'm pretty sure that we are not the only ones... Anyway, as such, signing a contract in not the end of the story. Please note, that we (as everybody here) dont know sh** about Stephano's one. So please stop saying that we are sure that he can escape his mistakes. As every balanced human being would think, if everything was done correctly, by no means he can escape this, except the fact that is would be pretty stupid from coL to recrut somebody that does not want to be there. Personal trollish note: + Show Spoiler +
As the US culture is, I think they just want a some financial compensation, for having managed to get a click on a website from a guy far far away...
This has nothing to do with the US and corporations. This has to do with integrity. In the US (not too sure about France) when you sign a contract it is assumed that you did your research beforehand and knew what you were signing to. Once you have given your signature it is confirmation that you have READ, UNDERSTAND, and AGREE to the terms you have signed. This is the way business works, either in a large multimillion dollar corporation or in the smallest independently run store. If you have read the thread until then, please, try to envision the fact that the whole world does not necessarily work like in the US. And by all mean, thanks god. Are you really trying to say that in France, when you sign a contract, it's actually assumed that you didn't read, understand and agree to the terms? In that case, what do you think it means to sign a contract? I'm pretty sure in France it would mean the same thing, unless France is actually some kind of alternate universe. Also not sure why you would 'thanks god' that contracts are apparently meaningless in France. Imagine you signed a housing contract, but right after you move in you get kicked out for no reason. "This isn't the U.S., buddy! Contracts don't mean the same thing here!" But I'm pretty sure things don't work that way in France, either. Would be hilarious if they did. We DO have contracts and we DO have to respect them ^^ but it's just less strict than in the US, if an absurdity is proven, it's easier to put common sense above a contract than in the US
Now Stephano's contract is absurd?
I understand rooting for the home team and all. But the only thing absurd about this are the actions of Stephano and Millenium.
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On September 20 2011 22:33 Himali wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 22:28 rO_Or wrote:Sounds like Mill isn't too confident that the French contract "exception" will hold up in a court of law and is now backtracking to cover their rears... If they were sure of their position I don't see why they would engage in negotiations with col. Lol? Seriously? If any I see a huge step in the right direction from M. There was absolutly 0 legal treat for M, and Col knows that. If they engage negociations it's because their player fucked up and it's a sign of good faith, not of some imaginary fear of Col's "legal team".... "If anything, this unfortunate series of event has pointed out the impending necessity to ease worldwide communication between structures, and players, to avoid this kind of situation from ever occurring again." -> thats why they reach out to Col... because they actually believe this.
If we put our cynical hats back on, they could also be doing this because they think that the risk of PR backlash is great enough that they should at least seem to make a move toward cooperation. Also, as others have noted, there is the, however slight, chance of a serious grey area when Stephano comes to the US for IPL and other tourneys. So this is at least partly an ass-covering being done by Millennium, rather than them just being such great dudes and wanting a new peaceful world order.
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On September 20 2011 21:22 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 19:46 Apom wrote:
The last issue here is enforceability. If the contract is deemed legal by the Texan judge (which is very likely), and the French judge deems it an illegal employment contract (which is also very likely), then the contract will be null on French soil. What can be done if, and when, Stephano sets foot in the US, is another matter. Since you seem to be one of the very few here with a basic idea what they are talking about (sorry about the borderline insult, but wtf why does everyone feels he is qualified to talk legal when obviously 99% of the users here have never, ever studied law in the details required to comprehend the situation in questions?): Do you know if there are any bilateral agreements between France and the US regarding the enforcement of employment contracts? Because, even though I agree with you on the principal matter, if such agreements exist, those could possibly overrule the fact that French courts would have to apply French Law. In other words, if a bilateral agreement states that France has to enforce certain (!) US-court-decisions, then it doesn't matter at all if the contract violates French employment Law. All that the French court was allowed to verify in this case would be if the US decision is indeed a valid one (not forged/etc.). Considering the huge differences between US and French labour laws, I simply do not see how such an agreement could exist. In addition, French law specifically states that an individual working in France must be subject to an employment contract valid in the eyes of French law, regardless of what country the employing company is based in (of course, this only applies to long-term work, and for instance the American make-up artist who accompanies George Clooney to the Cannes Festival is not concerned). So unless coL intended to expatriate Stephano right off the bat (in which case he would be subject to an US jurisdiction as soon as he got off the plane anyways), I do not see how anything can be enforced in this matter.
I must point out that there could be a bilateral agreement that I am unaware of, but I really find that unlikely in the matter of labour laws.
Also of note : there are half a dozen reasons why extradition is not applicable, and people who have occasionnally suggested it during the course of this thread simply have no clue.
The one thing that could be done is attempting to enforce damages that would be awarded by the Texan judge. This is a complicated matter, for different reasons :
1. Punitive damages do not exist in French law (or civil law in general, I think). A 2010 ruling by the Cassation Court (lots of info, in English) recognizes that the notion of punitive damages as determined by a foreign court is enforceable in France, under one significant condition : as long as the amount is not disproportionate. With the French judge being responsible of assessing the proportionate character, I believe (but I could be wrong !) that in the case at hand, any amount of money beyond the symbolic euro would be considered disproportionate.
2. Compensatory damages absolutely exist, but evaluating them will be difficult. Other than the arguable public image loss for coL, Stephano changed his mind so fast that in all fairness, I doubt coL really suffered any financial loss. However, I assume that only the Texan judge would take part in that aspect of the ruling, and an US citizen would know better than me how it could go.
3. Lastly, among other restrictions (some info here), France will not enforce a judgment against their nationals unless there is a “clear indication” that the national intended to submit to the foreign court’s jurisdiction. Before people jump at me saying "but he signed the contract where it was written Texas law", I would like to point out that if Stephano attacked said contract in a French court, arguing that he was not in a position to give his full, enlightened consent, then there is a fairly significant chance (for reasons already elaborated on in this thread) that the French judge would rule in his favor and consider that he never agreed to submit to Texan law in the first place, and thus refuse to enforce any damage awarded by the Texan court.
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It may be forgehammer, it may be
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On September 20 2011 22:59 Merlimoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 22:55 Vul wrote:On September 20 2011 22:39 Merlimoo wrote:On September 20 2011 22:35 rO_Or wrote:On September 20 2011 21:59 Merlimoo wrote:On September 20 2011 21:47 Ryder. wrote:On September 20 2011 19:46 Apom wrote:On September 20 2011 13:53 Ryder. wrote:On September 20 2011 13:34 Crosswind wrote:On September 20 2011 13:07 Ryder. wrote:
[quote]
Dear uninformed citizen of the internet,
It may shock you to hear this but at 18 years old (at least where I live) you have full capacity to contract and you are legally bound by the terms you enter into in contracts.
...
I mean if you are 18 and you commit murder you are able to be punished as an adult because you ARE an adult. Doesn't matter if you were 17 four months ago, you gotta draw the line somewhere. Sure these acts are different...
[quote]
No excuse champ, if you are gonna play with the big boys then you abide by their rules. Ignorance is no excuse. Just FYI, in case you missed it, you just compared an 18 year old going back on a contract, something that it is not even clear is illegal, to murdering somebody. How much of a douchebag are you going to feel like when it turns out that what he did wasn't even illegal, so not only are you flipping out over some amateur hour teams and a kid, but you're flipping out incorrectly? A little perspective here, people. -Cross (P.S. I have no opinion on accountability. But the amount of hate going on for parties involved is disproportionate. You all are making far too much out of a bunch of commonplace, unsurprising events.) As I said, I don't know shit about French law, if they have some dodgy loopholes to help people avoid their contractual obligations good for them. But in most countries breach of contract IS illegal and you are legally obliged to either fulfill the contract or pay damages. Of course the severity of the act is nothing close to murder, why the fuck would you try and act like it is? The point is both of these actions are illegal, and you can't just let one of them go unpunished because it is less severe. As I said I am going by what is law in Australia (as well as a lot of other places). If French law lets you get out of this then fine, but the point I was addressing is that you think it's ok for 18 year olds to renege on their promises because they feel like changing their mind, and that is wrong*. *excluding gay loopholes in French lawEdit: Just because it is a 'commonplace, unsurprising event' doesn't mean there shouldn't be consequences.
I want to say I'm worried that stephano hurt his image by making a silly choice, but I know people will forget in a week. I am kind of disappointed that stephano went back on his word
You can bet your ass future, prospective teams won't though... I'm sure it will factor into their decisions in the future. How aren't you banned for this yet ? :/ Also, people who are saying that you can evade contractual obligations under French law are starting to get annoying. As a general rule, you can't. Someone said you have seven days to change your mind about buying a house : that is true, but is an exception. This provision, known as droit de repentir (right to renege ?), only applies to a set of specific contracts, of which buying a house is one, but Stephano's contract certainly is not. A related clause, known as période d'essai (trial period ?), can be specified in employment cotnracts, but it is not mandatory nor implicit. The only way for Stephano to evade his contractual obligations with coL is if the contract is deemed illegal in the first place. While it certainly doesn't qualify as a proper employment contract under French law (for numerous reasons - coL even somewhat admitted to this), it is designed as an international contract, and it may very well be legal as such, especially under Texan law (which it defines as its ruling law). The last issue here is enforceability. If the contract is deemed legal by the Texan judge (which is very likely), and the French judge deems it an illegal employment contract (which is also very likely), then the contract will be null on French soil. What can be done if, and when, Stephano sets foot in the US, is another matter. Lol trust a french poster to insist I should be banned for that... It was clearly a tongue-in-cheek comment, you really think I should be banned about making a snide joke about French law? Particularly since most people in this thread (excluding the French of course) think that this kind of loophole IS stupid due to the way their respective legal system works... Your post is interesting though, there are a lot of posts ( especially from French posters) say that because of French law he IS able to squirm out of the contract due to this '7 day cool-off period' and there is nothing coL is able to do about it. So it is interesting that you (as a French poster) seem to insist that he isn't able to get out of it. Do you have any special knowledge of law that gives you this opinion? Also why would a French judge classify it as illegal employment contract? (Genuine questions, I am just interested as every other French poster has said that Stephano will be able to get out of this contract). Is it a cultural habit to put words in the mouth of others ? Before it get worse, with frenchies vs world none sens, please note that many of "french" posts were just saying that we have some laws that can IN SOME CASES be more protective of the people instead of the corporation, that have an all mighty power in the US culture. And I'm pretty sure that we are not the only ones... Anyway, as such, signing a contract in not the end of the story. Please note, that we (as everybody here) dont know sh** about Stephano's one. So please stop saying that we are sure that he can escape his mistakes. As every balanced human being would think, if everything was done correctly, by no means he can escape this, except the fact that is would be pretty stupid from coL to recrut somebody that does not want to be there. Personal trollish note: + Show Spoiler +
As the US culture is, I think they just want a some financial compensation, for having managed to get a click on a website from a guy far far away...
This has nothing to do with the US and corporations. This has to do with integrity. In the US (not too sure about France) when you sign a contract it is assumed that you did your research beforehand and knew what you were signing to. Once you have given your signature it is confirmation that you have READ, UNDERSTAND, and AGREE to the terms you have signed. This is the way business works, either in a large multimillion dollar corporation or in the smallest independently run store. If you have read the thread until then, please, try to envision the fact that the whole world does not necessarily work like in the US. And by all mean, thanks god. Are you really trying to say that in France, when you sign a contract, it's actually assumed that you didn't read, understand and agree to the terms? In that case, what do you think it means to sign a contract? I'm pretty sure in France it would mean the same thing, unless France is actually some kind of alternate universe. Also not sure why you would 'thanks god' that contracts are apparently meaningless in France. Imagine you signed a housing contract, but right after you move in you get kicked out for no reason. "This isn't the U.S., buddy! Contracts don't mean the same thing here!" But I'm pretty sure things don't work that way in France, either. Would be hilarious if they did. It's astonishing to see the amount of US citizen that really can't be open minded and listen/understand to what we say to them. Just because it's not like that at home, Durp! Durp! Maybe it's because I'm not native and that I'm english is really bad... Too bad then. I will stop this conversation, before I get banned for being too mean in a try to educate people.
Hahaha, yea it's because I'm American and not because what you're saying is obviously wrong. If only I were French I would be able to understand the subtle nuances of your enlightening argument. You're just too smart for all of us, man.
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On September 20 2011 23:01 Vul wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 22:57 SolidMustard wrote:On September 20 2011 22:55 Vul wrote:On September 20 2011 22:39 Merlimoo wrote:On September 20 2011 22:35 rO_Or wrote:On September 20 2011 21:59 Merlimoo wrote:On September 20 2011 21:47 Ryder. wrote:On September 20 2011 19:46 Apom wrote:On September 20 2011 13:53 Ryder. wrote:On September 20 2011 13:34 Crosswind wrote:
[quote]
Just FYI, in case you missed it, you just compared an 18 year old going back on a contract, something that it is not even clear is illegal, to murdering somebody.
How much of a douchebag are you going to feel like when it turns out that what he did wasn't even illegal, so not only are you flipping out over some amateur hour teams and a kid, but you're flipping out incorrectly?
A little perspective here, people.
-Cross
(P.S. I have no opinion on accountability. But the amount of hate going on for parties involved is disproportionate. You all are making far too much out of a bunch of commonplace, unsurprising events.) As I said, I don't know shit about French law, if they have some dodgy loopholes to help people avoid their contractual obligations good for them. But in most countries breach of contract IS illegal and you are legally obliged to either fulfill the contract or pay damages. Of course the severity of the act is nothing close to murder, why the fuck would you try and act like it is? The point is both of these actions are illegal, and you can't just let one of them go unpunished because it is less severe. As I said I am going by what is law in Australia (as well as a lot of other places). If French law lets you get out of this then fine, but the point I was addressing is that you think it's ok for 18 year olds to renege on their promises because they feel like changing their mind, and that is wrong*. *excluding gay loopholes in French lawEdit: Just because it is a 'commonplace, unsurprising event' doesn't mean there shouldn't be consequences.
I want to say I'm worried that stephano hurt his image by making a silly choice, but I know people will forget in a week. I am kind of disappointed that stephano went back on his word
You can bet your ass future, prospective teams won't though... I'm sure it will factor into their decisions in the future. How aren't you banned for this yet ? :/ Also, people who are saying that you can evade contractual obligations under French law are starting to get annoying. As a general rule, you can't. Someone said you have seven days to change your mind about buying a house : that is true, but is an exception. This provision, known as droit de repentir (right to renege ?), only applies to a set of specific contracts, of which buying a house is one, but Stephano's contract certainly is not. A related clause, known as période d'essai (trial period ?), can be specified in employment cotnracts, but it is not mandatory nor implicit. The only way for Stephano to evade his contractual obligations with coL is if the contract is deemed illegal in the first place. While it certainly doesn't qualify as a proper employment contract under French law (for numerous reasons - coL even somewhat admitted to this), it is designed as an international contract, and it may very well be legal as such, especially under Texan law (which it defines as its ruling law). The last issue here is enforceability. If the contract is deemed legal by the Texan judge (which is very likely), and the French judge deems it an illegal employment contract (which is also very likely), then the contract will be null on French soil. What can be done if, and when, Stephano sets foot in the US, is another matter. Lol trust a french poster to insist I should be banned for that... It was clearly a tongue-in-cheek comment, you really think I should be banned about making a snide joke about French law? Particularly since most people in this thread (excluding the French of course) think that this kind of loophole IS stupid due to the way their respective legal system works... Your post is interesting though, there are a lot of posts ( especially from French posters) say that because of French law he IS able to squirm out of the contract due to this '7 day cool-off period' and there is nothing coL is able to do about it. So it is interesting that you (as a French poster) seem to insist that he isn't able to get out of it. Do you have any special knowledge of law that gives you this opinion? Also why would a French judge classify it as illegal employment contract? (Genuine questions, I am just interested as every other French poster has said that Stephano will be able to get out of this contract). Is it a cultural habit to put words in the mouth of others ? Before it get worse, with frenchies vs world none sens, please note that many of "french" posts were just saying that we have some laws that can IN SOME CASES be more protective of the people instead of the corporation, that have an all mighty power in the US culture. And I'm pretty sure that we are not the only ones... Anyway, as such, signing a contract in not the end of the story. Please note, that we (as everybody here) dont know sh** about Stephano's one. So please stop saying that we are sure that he can escape his mistakes. As every balanced human being would think, if everything was done correctly, by no means he can escape this, except the fact that is would be pretty stupid from coL to recrut somebody that does not want to be there. Personal trollish note: + Show Spoiler +
As the US culture is, I think they just want a some financial compensation, for having managed to get a click on a website from a guy far far away...
This has nothing to do with the US and corporations. This has to do with integrity. In the US (not too sure about France) when you sign a contract it is assumed that you did your research beforehand and knew what you were signing to. Once you have given your signature it is confirmation that you have READ, UNDERSTAND, and AGREE to the terms you have signed. This is the way business works, either in a large multimillion dollar corporation or in the smallest independently run store. If you have read the thread until then, please, try to envision the fact that the whole world does not necessarily work like in the US. And by all mean, thanks god. Are you really trying to say that in France, when you sign a contract, it's actually assumed that you didn't read, understand and agree to the terms? In that case, what do you think it means to sign a contract? I'm pretty sure in France it would mean the same thing, unless France is actually some kind of alternate universe. Also not sure why you would 'thanks god' that contracts are apparently meaningless in France. Imagine you signed a housing contract, but right after you move in you get kicked out for no reason. "This isn't the U.S., buddy! Contracts don't mean the same thing here!" But I'm pretty sure things don't work that way in France, either. Would be hilarious if they did. We DO have contracts and we DO have to respect them ^^ but it's just less strict than in the US, if an absurdity is proven, it's easier to put common sense above a contract than in the US Now Stephano's contract is absurd? I understand rooting for the home team and all. But the only thing absurd about this are the actions of Stephano and Millenium.
You didn't get my point, I am french but I think M and Stephano screwed up, and I don't think the contract between coL and Stephano is absurd. But I'm just tired of seeing uneducated people talk about what they don't know (i.e. french law)
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On September 20 2011 23:05 Vul wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 22:59 Merlimoo wrote:On September 20 2011 22:55 Vul wrote:On September 20 2011 22:39 Merlimoo wrote:On September 20 2011 22:35 rO_Or wrote:On September 20 2011 21:59 Merlimoo wrote:On September 20 2011 21:47 Ryder. wrote:On September 20 2011 19:46 Apom wrote:On September 20 2011 13:53 Ryder. wrote:On September 20 2011 13:34 Crosswind wrote:
[quote]
Just FYI, in case you missed it, you just compared an 18 year old going back on a contract, something that it is not even clear is illegal, to murdering somebody.
How much of a douchebag are you going to feel like when it turns out that what he did wasn't even illegal, so not only are you flipping out over some amateur hour teams and a kid, but you're flipping out incorrectly?
A little perspective here, people.
-Cross
(P.S. I have no opinion on accountability. But the amount of hate going on for parties involved is disproportionate. You all are making far too much out of a bunch of commonplace, unsurprising events.) As I said, I don't know shit about French law, if they have some dodgy loopholes to help people avoid their contractual obligations good for them. But in most countries breach of contract IS illegal and you are legally obliged to either fulfill the contract or pay damages. Of course the severity of the act is nothing close to murder, why the fuck would you try and act like it is? The point is both of these actions are illegal, and you can't just let one of them go unpunished because it is less severe. As I said I am going by what is law in Australia (as well as a lot of other places). If French law lets you get out of this then fine, but the point I was addressing is that you think it's ok for 18 year olds to renege on their promises because they feel like changing their mind, and that is wrong*. *excluding gay loopholes in French lawEdit: Just because it is a 'commonplace, unsurprising event' doesn't mean there shouldn't be consequences.
I want to say I'm worried that stephano hurt his image by making a silly choice, but I know people will forget in a week. I am kind of disappointed that stephano went back on his word
You can bet your ass future, prospective teams won't though... I'm sure it will factor into their decisions in the future. How aren't you banned for this yet ? :/ Also, people who are saying that you can evade contractual obligations under French law are starting to get annoying. As a general rule, you can't. Someone said you have seven days to change your mind about buying a house : that is true, but is an exception. This provision, known as droit de repentir (right to renege ?), only applies to a set of specific contracts, of which buying a house is one, but Stephano's contract certainly is not. A related clause, known as période d'essai (trial period ?), can be specified in employment cotnracts, but it is not mandatory nor implicit. The only way for Stephano to evade his contractual obligations with coL is if the contract is deemed illegal in the first place. While it certainly doesn't qualify as a proper employment contract under French law (for numerous reasons - coL even somewhat admitted to this), it is designed as an international contract, and it may very well be legal as such, especially under Texan law (which it defines as its ruling law). The last issue here is enforceability. If the contract is deemed legal by the Texan judge (which is very likely), and the French judge deems it an illegal employment contract (which is also very likely), then the contract will be null on French soil. What can be done if, and when, Stephano sets foot in the US, is another matter. Lol trust a french poster to insist I should be banned for that... It was clearly a tongue-in-cheek comment, you really think I should be banned about making a snide joke about French law? Particularly since most people in this thread (excluding the French of course) think that this kind of loophole IS stupid due to the way their respective legal system works... Your post is interesting though, there are a lot of posts ( especially from French posters) say that because of French law he IS able to squirm out of the contract due to this '7 day cool-off period' and there is nothing coL is able to do about it. So it is interesting that you (as a French poster) seem to insist that he isn't able to get out of it. Do you have any special knowledge of law that gives you this opinion? Also why would a French judge classify it as illegal employment contract? (Genuine questions, I am just interested as every other French poster has said that Stephano will be able to get out of this contract). Is it a cultural habit to put words in the mouth of others ? Before it get worse, with frenchies vs world none sens, please note that many of "french" posts were just saying that we have some laws that can IN SOME CASES be more protective of the people instead of the corporation, that have an all mighty power in the US culture. And I'm pretty sure that we are not the only ones... Anyway, as such, signing a contract in not the end of the story. Please note, that we (as everybody here) dont know sh** about Stephano's one. So please stop saying that we are sure that he can escape his mistakes. As every balanced human being would think, if everything was done correctly, by no means he can escape this, except the fact that is would be pretty stupid from coL to recrut somebody that does not want to be there. Personal trollish note: + Show Spoiler +
As the US culture is, I think they just want a some financial compensation, for having managed to get a click on a website from a guy far far away...
This has nothing to do with the US and corporations. This has to do with integrity. In the US (not too sure about France) when you sign a contract it is assumed that you did your research beforehand and knew what you were signing to. Once you have given your signature it is confirmation that you have READ, UNDERSTAND, and AGREE to the terms you have signed. This is the way business works, either in a large multimillion dollar corporation or in the smallest independently run store. If you have read the thread until then, please, try to envision the fact that the whole world does not necessarily work like in the US. And by all mean, thanks god. Are you really trying to say that in France, when you sign a contract, it's actually assumed that you didn't read, understand and agree to the terms? In that case, what do you think it means to sign a contract? I'm pretty sure in France it would mean the same thing, unless France is actually some kind of alternate universe. Also not sure why you would 'thanks god' that contracts are apparently meaningless in France. Imagine you signed a housing contract, but right after you move in you get kicked out for no reason. "This isn't the U.S., buddy! Contracts don't mean the same thing here!" But I'm pretty sure things don't work that way in France, either. Would be hilarious if they did. It's astonishing to see the amount of US citizen that really can't be open minded and listen/understand to what we say to them. Just because it's not like that at home, Durp! Durp! Maybe it's because I'm not native and that I'm english is really bad... Too bad then. I will stop this conversation, before I get banned for being too mean in a try to educate people. Hahaha, yea it's because I'm American and not because what you're saying is obviously wrong. If only I were French I would be able to understand the subtle nuances of your enlightening argument. You're just too smart for all of us, man.
Just for you 
"It's because you are a special little boy, you know ? You are very special..."
And maybe because you talk sh** instead of reading what people have said before you woke up.
User was warned for this post
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Everybody say M say lie and Col say truth. But if it is the reverse. Stephano is young, he don't know about the difference of a US and a french contrat. He can see the french contract proposed by M is better than the Col contract. So stephano can't change his choice? In the French law he can. So he do.
If the thing say on the M tv was true, the contract was signed at 5 am in France. It is early in the day to do it for a young man like stephano.
For my opinion, we don't know the true story before a long long time.
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I find it quite funny how some people from France are like "HAHAHA COL GOT OWNED." Like it's braggable that Mil stole a player under contract. I don't see how CoL got owned by officially contracting a player, and then having the player decide it doesn't matter that he signed the contract. Even worse is that a "Professional" sports team seems to not only be okay with stealing him, but seems to be proud of it. I feel bad for the legit French posters on here, because a lot of them are offering reasonable insight into the situation, and aren't blinded by some weird sense of gaming nationalism.
Don't get me wrong. Plenty of people all both sides have pretty terrible attitudes here. Why on earth does anyone from France consider this situation a positive thing? Any French poster who blindly considers this an acceptable action really should do some introspection. Pretty sure if an American did this, he would be getting smashed in the face by French posters, saying how Americans have no respect, loyalty, etc.
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On September 20 2011 23:11 oxaolga wrote:
Everybody say M say lie and Col say truth. But if it is the reverse. Stephano is young, he don't know about the difference of a US and a french contrat. He can see the french contract proposed by M is better than the Col contract. So stephano can't change his choice? In the French law he can. So he do.
If the thing say on the M tv was true, the contract was signed at 5 am in France. It is early in the day to do it for a young man like stephano.
For my opinion, we don't know the true story before a long long time.
5 AM is early for an 18 year old? Really? People are still partying at 5 AM...
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On September 20 2011 23:11 oxaolga wrote:
Everybody say M say lie and Col say truth. But if it is the reverse. Stephano is young, he don't know about the difference of a US and a french contrat. He can see the french contract proposed by M is better than the Col contract. So stephano can't change his choice? In the French law he can. So he do.
If the thing say on the M tv was true, the contract was signed at 5 am in France. It is early in the day to do it for a young man like stephano.
For my opinion, we don't know the true story before a long long time.
This sounds like a Millenium statement-based excuse. Sad really. Did you even read what you just wrote?
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Don't sign any more contracts Stephano
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On September 20 2011 23:12 Zalithian wrote:
I find it quite funny how some people from France are like "HAHAHA COL GOT OWNED." Like it's braggable that Mil stole a player under contract. I don't see how CoL got owned by officially contracting a player, and then having the player decide it doesn't matter that he signed the contract. Even worse is that a "Professional" sports team seems to not only be okay with stealing him, but seems to be proud of it. I feel bad for the legit French posters on here, because a lot of them are offering reasonable insight into the situation, and aren't blinded by some weird sense of gaming nationalism.
Don't get me wrong. Plenty of people all both sides have pretty terrible attitudes here. Why on earth does anyone from France consider this situation a positive thing? Any French poster who blindly considers this an acceptable action really should do some introspection. Pretty sure if an American did this, he would be getting smashed in the face by French posters, saying how Americans have no respect, loyalty, etc.
I totally agree with the first part. And even better, I haven't seen anyone said that!! :D
And for the second part, we totally see american saying that about french, while a lot of french people said that millenium did a huge crap there.
In a sense, I don't really see the thread you're one right now.
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On September 20 2011 22:47 Dawg_Snow wrote:
I agree that the signature of the contract and then backing off was a blunder and that this issue could have been handled in a better way.
I don t like the fact that complexity posted so fast on TL their recruitment without even noticing Millenium about it.
I think Millenium was only fighting back to keep their player, they have nothing to be ashamed off as a team, they can ship him to any tournament he wants to and support him greatly as well.
But i would REALLY like a statement from Stephano to explain himself, maybe it will cool off all the haters on TL which ahave 0 tolerance and keep on saying : "yeah ban him from any tournameent" "yeah let s destroy the kid career because he couldn't decide".
And also, to all the racist that use this issue to troll over France and split their hatrance towards a nation, go grow a brain.
Let the both teams resolves this matter internally, this should never have leaked on public boards, it concerns only the both teams and the player and not all the population of sc2.
I think the hate towards france is because most people in this thread who are supporting M have France in their profile. Most people who aren't, don't. yes I'm from the US and I dont even particularly like Col, but I think at this point they seem much more innocent then M (who appears to have stolen a player under contract, a big no no). It is easy to see how people reading this thread would assume you are only defending M because you are french, I'm not saying this is true, but it probably is the general sentiment
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On September 20 2011 23:12 Adila wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 23:11 oxaolga wrote:
Everybody say M say lie and Col say truth. But if it is the reverse. Stephano is young, he don't know about the difference of a US and a french contrat. He can see the french contract proposed by M is better than the Col contract. So stephano can't change his choice? In the French law he can. So he do.
If the thing say on the M tv was true, the contract was signed at 5 am in France. It is early in the day to do it for a young man like stephano.
For my opinion, we don't know the true story before a long long time. 5 AM is early for an 18 year old? Really? People are still partying at 5 AM...
5 AM for partying, yes. But not for sign a contract.
I don't think you can do a important choice of yout life at this time.
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On September 20 2011 23:12 Zalithian wrote:
I find it quite funny how some people from France are like "HAHAHA COL GOT OWNED." Like it's braggable that Mil stole a player under contract. I don't see how CoL got owned by officially contracting a player, and then having the player decide it doesn't matter that he signed the contract. Even worse is that a "Professional" sports team seems to not only be okay with stealing him, but seems to be proud of it. I feel bad for the legit French posters on here, because a lot of them are offering reasonable insight into the situation, and aren't blinded by some weird sense of gaming nationalism.
Don't get me wrong. Plenty of people all both sides have pretty terrible attitudes here. Why on earth does anyone from France consider this situation a positive thing? Any French poster who blindly considers this an acceptable action really should do some introspection. Pretty sure if an American did this, he would be getting smashed in the face by French posters, saying how Americans have no respect, loyalty, etc.
Pretty sure? For sure more like it. There is a lot of anti-American sentiment on these boards.
Anyways, I guess it is pretty useless to keep beating a dead horse. We can't really speculate any more until there is clarification on the exact nature of the contract(s?)/ agreements.
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On September 20 2011 23:12 Zalithian wrote:
I find it quite funny how some people from France are like "HAHAHA COL GOT OWNED." Like it's braggable that Mil stole a player under contract. I don't see how CoL got owned by officially contracting a player, and then having the player decide it doesn't matter that he signed the contract. Even worse is that a "Professional" sports team seems to not only be okay with stealing him, but seems to be proud of it. I feel bad for the legit French posters on here, because a lot of them are offering reasonable insight into the situation, and aren't blinded by some weird sense of gaming nationalism.
Don't get me wrong. Plenty of people all both sides have pretty terrible attitudes here. Why on earth does anyone from France consider this situation a positive thing? Any French poster who blindly considers this an acceptable action really should do some introspection. Pretty sure if an American did this, he would be getting smashed in the face by French posters, saying how Americans have no respect, loyalty, etc.
And some U.S people will say "HAHAHA MIL GOT OWNED" .. i think we're not really different
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On September 20 2011 23:15 Boardin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 22:47 Dawg_Snow wrote:
I agree that the signature of the contract and then backing off was a blunder and that this issue could have been handled in a better way.
I don t like the fact that complexity posted so fast on TL their recruitment without even noticing Millenium about it.
I think Millenium was only fighting back to keep their player, they have nothing to be ashamed off as a team, they can ship him to any tournament he wants to and support him greatly as well.
But i would REALLY like a statement from Stephano to explain himself, maybe it will cool off all the haters on TL which ahave 0 tolerance and keep on saying : "yeah ban him from any tournameent" "yeah let s destroy the kid career because he couldn't decide".
And also, to all the racist that use this issue to troll over France and split their hatrance towards a nation, go grow a brain.
Let the both teams resolves this matter internally, this should never have leaked on public boards, it concerns only the both teams and the player and not all the population of sc2.
I think the hate towards france is because most people in this thread who are supporting M have France in their profile. Most people who aren't, don't. yes I'm from the US and I dont even particularly like Col, but I think at this point they seem much more innocent then M. It is easy to see how people reading this thread would assume you are only defending M because you are french, I'm not saying this is true, but it probably is the general sentiment
A lot of french people (all?) actually bashed Millenium!!!
The ones saying crap on France, are mainly US, and it has no ground. As usual... EDIT : (for a troll)
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EPT
